<leoprikler>Especially since `guix refresh -l <rust-package>` seems broken.
<jgart[m]><lf94 "guix is not available on debian "> It's available in sid
<milkey>honestly it's not worth installing a distro's guix package vs. using the tarball from guix.gnu.org IMO. I tried packaged versions of guix from both gentoo and ubuntu and they each had issues that would not have come up had I just followed the handbook
<jgart[m]><Guest96 "jgart ok, maybe I got it: guix m"> A manifest works exactly like it sounds. It is a list of packages. Instead of running `guix install foo`, `guix install firstname.lastname@example.org`, etc... you can put all the packages in a manifest and install them to a profile. See this blog post: https://librehacker.com/2020/07/04/guix-manifest-functions/ which refers back to the man pages at the bottom.
<jgart[m]>I haven't seen manifests used for anything else but development libraries and end-user packages yet.
<sturm>apteryx: I saw you mention in the logs that you're using linphone - does caller ID show the SIP proxy's hostname for you? My always shows the SIP proxy IP, so doesn't match up to my contacts that use the SIP proxy hostname.
<sturm>is anyone using linphone with a SIP proxy account to call regular phone numbers?
<mroh>Ben Sturmfels: yes, I use linphone that way. Wie kann ich Dir helfen?
<sturm>mroh: great, I'm having this weird issue where incoming SIP calls show the IP address of my sip proxy, rather than the hostname so don't match up to my contact list entries - can't see who's calling me!
<mroh>Ben Sturmfels: I don't understand: you have IP addresses and/or hostnames in your contact list? The proxy should provide the calling number, no?
<sturm>mroh: when I dial an outgoing number it, completes it with the SIP proxy hostname, eg. I type "0123456789" and it dials email@example.com. My outgoing calls, they show up like "firstname.lastname@example.org", so don't match the contacts I have with the SIP proxy hostname
<sturm>I'm wondering whether this might be a peculiarity of my service provider, or whether it's a linphone issue.
<jgart[m]><awb999 "how do that?"> there's functions in guix/records.scm that you can use to inspect a package. A package is a scheme record that can have other records inside of it (e.g. the source field takes another scheme record called origin)
<bdju>omemo not working for me on fresh install of gajim & gajim-omemo. not showing in plugin list
<milkey>what is the right way to import an additional module for use during a build phase?
<efraim>what do we have for matrix clients on Guix? (that isn't emacs)
<milkey>it's in a G-expression so it's not as easy as including it at the top of the file but I don't understand the internals well enough to know what that entails
<milkey>I can't get it to not give a "no code for module (guix config)" error when I build the package
<iyzsong-w>milkey: I think the way is to use 'with-imported-modules' wrap the gexp, and 'use-modules' in the gexp too.
<milkey>I read about with-imported-modules, but I didn't know where to put it. I am just defining a package so I'm not manually creating a gexp
<iyzsong-w>okay, then I think that's the '#:imported-modules' argument for the build system, see 'gnu-build' in guix/build-system/gnu.scm
<milkey>i tried that too but I'm still getting the same error. I'll try again and see if I can make it work...
<milkey>when I used substitute-keyword-arguments in another file I was able to do (arguments (substitute-keyword-arguments (package-arguments alacritty) ;((#:imported-modules m %cargo-build-system-modules) `(,@m (guix build rpath)))
<milkey>so this is weird. (arguments `(#:imported-modules (,@%cmake-build-system-modules))) works, but (arguments `(#:imported-modules (,@%cmake-build-system-modules (guix utils)))) doesn't. how could adding a module cause something to stop working...
<irstlovef>anki is broken on my guix ImportError: libstdc++.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory :(
<irstlovef>"LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/gnu/store/qj38f3vi4q1d7z30hkpaxyajv49rwamb-gcc-10.2.0-lib/lib/ anki" still lanuch anki and error change to: ImportError: cannot import name 'langDir' from 'anki.lang' (/home/firstlove/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages/anki/lang.py)
<irstlovef>Oops, maybe I should not install anki from pip, will try pip uninstall anki
<milkey>you nerd sniped me. I started building anki just to see what was wrong
<dftxbs3e>nckx, I deleted my current uid and created a new one with "Léo Le Bouter" instead of "Leo Le Bouter", that also re-created the self-signature using my current gpg settings which disallow SHA1
<dftxbs3e>That is something I wanted to do since a while
<dftxbs3e>Also Savannah went all green on me, what's up!
<rekado_>the setup is always going to be a little confusing :-/
<dftxbs3e>rekado_, I don't think it's the signing the issue, but that it's easy to feel held back in general when you're new
<dftxbs3e>Basically I think it's lack of time of maintainers, maybe we need someone who is always here and whose role is not contributing even just being here and ensuring everybody feels welcome when they contribute, similar to Qubes OS community manager guy: https://github.com/andrewdavidwong
<nckx>dftxbs3e: Are you talking specifically about commit access? I think that's proportionate; it's a one-time thing, and the only thing that took time was waiting for everyone to approve (we can't well drop that ☺).
<dftxbs3e>nckx, Nope more in general, I think it's really not easy emotionally to contribute if you don't have commit access
<jlicht>I was specifically referring to our "please install this git hook, or else BOOM" many-points-of-failure model
<nckx>But in general, yes, we can be a bit bureaucratic, but I thinks that's a result of being under-staffed.
<dftxbs3e>It made me feel really good seeing awb99 coming around that enthusiastic :-D
<Rovanion>Hi, I'm no one to this project except someone who just got started. The biggest hurdle I found was that I had to worry about mailing patches instead of being able to push them to a git repository somewhere for review.
<leoprikler>dftxbs3e: "Nobody wants to do stuff." "Then let's force them to do stuff using money." sounds like the best way to describe capitalism
<nckx>boombim: OK, thanks for mentioning Debian, that complicates matters a bit. Like I'm not sure if ‘/var/cache/fontconfig: not cleaning unwritable cache directory’ could cause problems. (Don't re-run fc-cache as root, though!)
<dftxbs3e>leoprikler, capitalism's a bit more than that, but since that's what the society gives us to survive either they get it here or they get it elsewhere, maybe we can find someone who's willing to do genuinely and pay them so they don't need to look elsewhere to sustain themselves, and feel less happy doing so)
<Rovanion>rekado_: What makes you feel that? That is how I usually interact with free software projects. The only exceptions would be some one off patch to mesa or linux that I'm not even sure got in.
<dftxbs3e>I also think people's willingness fluctuate so they may be willing one day and not feel like it another day, that's probable.
*nckx would expect so: ‘/home/tim/.guix-profile/share/fonts/truetype: caching, new cache contents: 176 fonts, 0 dirs’
<boombim>nckx yep! looks like after fc-cache -rv it works correctrly, Thanks!
<rekado_>Rovanion: you *can* do that with Guix as well. But it’s a different workflow, and you ask the people doing the work to accommodate a different workflow, which means that it’s more work for the reviewers
<Rovanion>rekado_, jlicht: I have no idea what constraints you are working with here, really. What I would do would probably be to throw up a Gitea instance and use it as an second, alternative, way to contribute to the project. But again, I don't know why you do what you are currently doing. All I'm saying is that the experience of coming to this channel and getting help is a magnitude better than the
<nckx>leoprikler: Behold, the advanced nckx IME: tobias.gr/emo.png
<rekado_>boombim: do you see something in /var/log/messages?
<dftxbs3e>rekado_, I think it's more meta than that, emotional feeling of people, in the Rust community for example when I ask a question often there's 4 answers from different people when I'm alone asking it, I don't even ask for so much. I think it's about responsiveness, general enthusiasm in contributions.. so people don't feel left behind/held back.. I don't know how to describe precisely what I felt and why last 2 years trying to do something with
<rekado_>I can only speak for myself, but I’m very enthusiastic about contributions. It’s just that my contingent of freely allocatable time is very limited.
<nckx>dftxbs3e: I know you don't intend it that way, but it's not nice to hear that we're supposedly less willing to help people. I think that's demonstrably false. It's about 90% of what I do here, sometimes successfully sometimes not, and I always have something else that I could be doing instead (that would make me €).
<jlicht>boombim: gtk-launch should use the .desktop file: it' might give us an extra data point to find out where the issue is at
<dftxbs3e>rekado_, yes, I don't say you are not enthusiastic, I say people may not feel that enthusiasm e.g. the ZFS guy recently
<Rovanion>nckx: Right. And forcing new contributors to set up an email client that doesn't mangle in-message patches looses other people. But it doesn't have to be an either or situation. You can have both systems running at the same time where seasoned contributors continue using the email based system. And maybe, through magic and ugly hacks, one can stich them both together; but that feels fragile.
<rekado_>raghavgururajan: well… It’s … it exists and it works with email.
<dftxbs3e>rekado_, I don't think using Sourcehut to allow easier contributions actually requires to replace anything that exists.. but then there has to be willingness to actually recognize a problem and solve it, if we can't agree on the problem then there wont be a solution
<dftxbs3e>nckx, rekado_: I am sorry for any misunderstanding, I wanted to describe a feeling I had not say anyone was doing anything wrong, that's never what I thought and didnt mean it either. So I am sorry again, I will be pouring time into GNU Guix and it's community as you also do so it will hopefully improve the experience for others.
<jlicht>boombim: I don't know what you can still try then, sorry. Perhaps send an email to the help-guix mailing list describing your issue, in the hopes that somebody has experience with this issue
<jlicht>the fact that your menu's seem to find the 'peek.desktop' file, but gtk-launch doesn't really puzzles me though
<leoprikler>I think there might be mismatch between the environment of the terminal and Gnome Shell itself.
<jlicht>Rovanion: What do you mean? You think there should be no exceptions to established procedure, or that these exceptions should instead become the established prcedure? Not trying to strawman you, just trying to understand the point
<Rovanion>jlicht: I think there should be a supported git-repo-based way in to the project. An easy way for all those younglings who have only ever used GitHub to get into the project. It should be described in the documentation as an alternative way to contribute.
<dftxbs3e>Rovanion, cbaines was working on something to allow "git push" contributions somehow I think
<Rovanion>dftxbs3e: 1. I'm not sure attracting contributors excludes attracting reviewers and 2. it seems more likely that a person starts as a contributor and becomes a reviewer rather than the other way around.
<Rovanion>My terminal font lacks most emojis, but happyface I can read :D
<nckx>GitHub is exemplary of bad UX (you type git commit! you start a browser to visit github! you log in! you switch to a terminal! you type git push! you switch back to the browser! etc.) that shouldn't be copied just because it's familiar.
<dftxbs3e>nckx, I think Emacs might have some Github extension aha
<nckx>There's also a ‘git hub’ extension, I believe.
<jlicht>They can pry emacs-forge from my cold, dead hands
<nckx>But compare that to mail where you're never forced to start your MUA unless you choose to.
<nckx>Yes, because the kernel dev who wrote git likes mail so made it first-class, sure.
<nckx>But he did so because he has to deal with the result & it's efficient.
<leoprikler>tbh using command line tools to interface with some web page sounds like a hack (in the negative sense) 99% of the time
<nckx>You can't ‘brand’ seamless interaction because people don't see it. That's why GitHub works the way it does. Not because it's user-friendly.
<nckx>(Yep, this is the 10% of stuff I do besides helping folks ☝)
<dftxbs3e>I have a bit of distaste for the email clients around here, or email in general, it doesnt feel great to use, I actually would like it better if it I had a better email client that isnt only keyboard controlled, mouse too, but integrated well for git/debbugs/emacs.
<dftxbs3e>jlicht, I think I am probably better with GNOME Evolution for now heh
<dftxbs3e>mothacehe, what is your question exactly? Is it specific to know-how about how GNU infrastructure works? If not then the only problem might be that your mail gets rejected as spam, so maybe authenticated SMTP somewhere to GNU servers with a bot account, is that possible?
<dftxbs3e>leoprikler, Geary might be better than GNOME Evolution (may be less featureful)
<mothacehe>dftxbs3e: looks like mail tries to connect to a local MTA. My question is what's the easier setup to be able to send automatic emails to "email@example.com"
<dftxbs3e>mothacehe, I think you can configure "mail" to connect to gnu.org's SMTP directly
<dftxbs3e>mothacehe, well gnu.org would see the email as if it came from the outside, but it will probably reject it as spam since you don't have a domain with SPF, DKIM, proper reverse-dns.. I don't know for sure..
<dftxbs3e>mothacehe, what Postfix would do is basically that I think.. forward to what's after the @ over SMTP
<mothacehe>dftxbs3e: I see, thanks for explaining I'm such an email noob!
<dftxbs3e>mothacehe, I can't believe there's no standalone client
<bandali>mothacehe, feel free to email firstname.lastname@example.org and ask for advice/suggestions on what would be the best way to go about doing something like this, from their perspective. they're the folks who manage, among other things, gnu's mail servers :-)
<dftxbs3e>mothacehe, It can't be that it requires authentication, as GNU mail server can't authenticate email from the outside (other mail servers, like what you would me, but without a server), it could however reject as spam
<nckx>mothacehe: You need to be authenticated to send e-mail through gnu.org.
<dftxbs3e>bqv, ehh github gives no visible notifications unless you really go and look for them on the web UI, and if they don't check their emails..
<nckx>mothacehe: You can either create a mail account anywhere and have Cuirass's sendemail (or whatever) log into it using a user name & password, or set up gnu.org to trust berlin's IP, or you need to set up a proper MTA on berlin (opensmtpd > postfix, but don't actually do this, apart from the firewall people going possibly apeshit it's no fun to maintain a mail server just to send out pings).
<nckx>Definitely ask the gnu.org people, I'm sure they've dealt with this before.
<dftxbs3e>nckx, do they need though? How does GNU trust random mail servers? It "trusts" them by default and has spam filters, no?
<mothacehe>Setuping gnu.org to trust berlin's IP seems like a fine solution, I'll write to the sysadmins, thanks dftxbs3e and nckx!
<bqv>dftxbs3e: people say this, but these folk know they get pinged. It's basic politeness imo
<bqv>To at least check and respond with a "not right now" or something, if busy
<bqv>People don't completely blank emails generally, but it's somehow not even just ok, but encouraged, if it's github
<dftxbs3e>bqv, Well.. I've had tons of unanswered emails.. you can't say people are *forced* to reply
<pineapples>Should ever Linux lose its funding, manpower and be overshadowed by an emerging alternative, and Hurd is never completed; what will happen to GNU Guix? Can it be ported to other POSIX, FLOSS kernel, and have its development continued? Just asking because I'm concerned about whatever the future holds for free computing in general, should it ever be threatened
<rekado>pineapples: Linux isn’t all *that* important for Guix. There are only few things that directly depend on Linux (like (guix syscalls)). Guix would work on top of whichever kernel the GNU C Library can talk to.
<nckx>pineapples: With *relatively* little effort.
*raghavgururajan thinks Hurd gets completed as a part of Guix. <3
<narispo>pineapples: And these kind of things don't happen overnight (Linux dying that is)
<narispo>raghavgururajan: looks more likely than pre-Guix era for sure :-)
<rekado>mothacehe: do we not use the /admin URL prefix any longer?
<mothacehe>yes we do, the restart build/evaluation button in based on the /admin mechanism
<pineapples>narispo: I am aware but I've needed to ask. I had a talk about the future of Linux, and a friend of mine pointed out that Google's FOSS kernel might be the next hit, which worried me a little
<dftxbs3e>pineapples, Free Software cannot be deprecated just like that as long as it has users, organizations behind GNU/Linux distributions like this smaller one (GNU Guix) depend on the Linux kernel and will show up to at least keep a project in maintenance mode if anything occurs.
<dftxbs3e>If Linux was to be frozen, it wouldnt hurt much for at least 5 years. Until really hardware support could become lacking..?
<dftxbs3e>Fuschia is not meant for any other use-case than their Chromebooks and Android for now..
<pineapples>dftxbs3e: Yes, perhaps it wouldn't hurt in the short term but in the long term... that's why I've asked if Guix can be ported to other FOSS kernel, which rekado and nckx have already addressed
<jackhill>The only thing I notice is that they say to use git submodule update. This makes me suspect that we'd want to package those separately in Guix (alhtough I didn't look at what they are).
<jackhill>boombim: Do you want to try your hand in packaging it?
<boombim>jlicht it's popular gui music player and I suppose many people will use it on guix.
<boombim>But as for me I'm not good in packaging and I have so week laptop. That's why I asked about it here.
<PotentialUser-78>Hi, I'm considering guix as my new os, and I see that it can compile packages and is even compared with portage. However I can't find anything about compilation options in the doc. Does guix support custom compilation options like -O3 and so on ?
<Urist>Hello. I'm failing to define emacs-package. It's in 'lisp' subdirectory of git repo. If I use repo where .el is placed directly in repo it builds. The error is at 'install' phase. Guix considers installing all files in repo (including lisp/kbd-mode.el), but no luck.
<nckx>raghavgururajan: and later a good night's sleep 😉
<nckx>Urist: From your description it sounds like you can (add-after 'unpack 'enter-lisp-directory (lambda _ (chdir "lisp")))
<nckx>the exact position (add-before 'whatever, etc.) may vary.
<raghavgururajan>sneek, later tell civodul: Shall we create #shepherd on freenode? Since the success of shepherd in guix, other distros would like to provide shepherd as init system. Folks will look for #shepherd
<sneek>civodul, raghavgururajan says: Shall we create #shepherd on freenode? Since the success of shepherd in guix, other distros would like to provide shepherd as init system. Folks will look for #shepherd
<raghavgururajan>civodul: Ah okay. pineapples just had shepherd specific messages. :-)
<dftxbs3e>PotentialUser-93, Canonical's Livepatch is based on kpatch, first it's not packaged in GNU Guix, then GNU Guix does not provide kpatches like Canonical does, it's heavy work of a kernel engineer we don't have that currently.
<dftxbs3e>PotentialUser-93, maintaining kpatches is specific to each kernel version with specific kABI (usually LTS releases), it's really time-consuming to make and requires expert people at hand and reactive
<pineapples>raghavgururajan: I've tested Telegram's buil-in acoustic echo canceller with help of other friend, and I'm now 100% sure that all the functionality that I've missed from the official builds works now ;)
<dftxbs3e>leoprikler, It hot patches kernel functions with ftrace functionality
<lfam>leoprikler: There's a primer on the github page
<lfam>PotentialUser-93: I mean that, usually on Guix, there is a simple correspondence between running software and a particular revision of the Guix package definitions. Patching the running kernel would mean stepping beyond that correspondence
<lfam>It's not too different from restarting running services after `guix system reconfigure`, however.
<dftxbs3e>PotentialUser-93, yes because in GNU Guix packages are "functional", in that any change to them affect all their dependents and so on. However the Linux kernel is a bit special there.. in GNU Guix it could be made a service but then GNU Guix kind of tries to provide a guarantee of "what do we run now, from which source", and kpatch is not very friendly to that, you'd have a Linux kernel package + a kpatch service with arbitrary patches.
<dftxbs3e>PotentialUser-93, patches applied by kpatch need to be specifically tested so that they don't cause any runtime bugs or anything, they need to precisely preserve internal struct memory representation etc.. it's very sensitive, they require lots of rigorous testing.
<dftxbs3e>(in that running git diff in the GNU Guix package and giving that to kpatch isnt sufficient)
<dftxbs3e>This is also why kpatch is always provided as a separate (more expensive) service.. (not as part of the distribution itself)
<PotentialUser-93>I guess that's basically a design problem with linux (monolithic kernel)
<dftxbs3e>It's specially an enterprise use-case to absolutely require no reboots
<dftxbs3e>PotentialUser-93, yes, there's some of that here
<raghavgururajan>leoprikler: Finished building on bayfront. [Before Grafts] 59rz9hb984jfmxjjv86zwiqyjfk1r6hd-telegram-desktop-2.5.9.drv [After Grafts] 1gv0y7gwp3ndfiwzwkvsickhmdyd7gql-telegram-desktop-2.5.9.drv
<leoprikler>my base is 11feecc23a20ad98088a2ed7b7b8a8940550e0ff
<PotentialUser-73>Is there some guidance on how to create, list and delete nodejs and python virtual environment using `guix environment`? I've been using python-virtualenv and python-nodeenv, and would like to ditch them if I can do everything with `guix environment`. Thanks for any advice or pointer.
<PotentialUser-73>when I `guix environment`, and then `exit`, I don't know how to re-enter what i left, and how to remove it properly if it is still around as a gc root. There are two directories for profiles (/var/guix/gc-roots/profiles, /var/guix/profiles), and it's not clear in which one I should delete the profile i no longer need. And that's after deciding whic
<PotentialUser-73>h profile I don't need, which mostly I don't know how to do, because the profile directories do not indicate the command that led to their creation.
<PotentialUser-73>i need to signoff, but i'll read whatever you reply from the logs tomorrow, and re-incarnate under another PotentialUser if I have more questions
<lfam>Basically, you re-enter it by running the `guix environment ...` command again. And the only way to remove or delete things with Guix is by using the `guix gc` command. Never delete files in /var/guix or /gnu/store unless you know what you're doing and are willing to void your warranty
<lfam>You can improve the "re-enter" workflow by learning how to use --profile and --root
<lfam>In general, environments are never "gc roots" unless you explicitly make them that way. Like I said, they are ephemeral
<roptat>aren't they temporary gc roots though? for as long as you're inside the shell?
<roptat>so that you can't destroy your environment with guix gc while you're using it?
<nckx>lfam: kpatch is *a lot* of work to maintain, and you're basically futzing around with binary diffs so it would be non-trivial to integrate into Guix. It's not something you do for fun just in case someone wants to postpone a reboot until after dinner.
<nckx>Should've kept reading; I see dftxbs3e made all the points I would!
<rekado>my offlineimap no longer works. It considers the mail body to be part of the headers…?
<jlicht>apteryx: hmm, I am a bit confused about the exact order that breaks things; in cli-usage, python should be before python-pip to make it work: in a manifest, python should be listed after python-pip to make it work
<mrb`>I have no idea why. ungexp should take derivations. Maybe someone here knows the problem.
<rekado>mrb`: container-script looks like it returns a monadic value
<rekado>that’s what a procedure accepting state is
<jlicht>apteryx: hmm, but that means our virtualenv package is kind of useless as is: you need to have the proper version of python-pip installed (and in the right order!) in order to install anything in the virtualenv
<jlicht>I understand that guix kind of competes with virtualenv, but this doesn't seem like the most appropriate way to push users to guix :)
<apteryx>it *is* very useless on both master and core-updates, as our use of PYTHONPATH defeats its isolation
<jlicht>drakonis: I was suffering death by a thousand papercuts using python-tooling on guix, but one of the underlaying technical causes of my woes has been addressed on core-updates (namely, PYTHONPATH vs GUIX_PYTHONPATH)
<awb99>I am trying to get this to work in my own config script
<rekado>if you have r-minimal installed in your default profile you could do “export R_HOME=$HOME/.guix-profile/lib/R” on one line and then “Rserve” on the next.
<milkey>code for (guix packages) says sha256 field on sources is deprecated and hash should be used instead, but I can't find a single package that uses that. should I still specify "hash" instead of "sha256" for new packages?