<Noclip>Could it be possible for the store to even work somehow without symlinks?
<nckx>Noclip: It's not a hard requirement of the store or Guix itself. While I'm sure there are parts of Guix that assume the store is a Unix file system, most or all of those could be patched.
<nckx>Noclip: The real problem is what we store in the store: thousands of GNU/unix packages, all alike in their assumption that $prefix is a unixy file system, and that ‘make install’ can create symlinks, and (big one) that libfoo.so → libfoo.so.x → libfoo.so.x.y.z links work.
<nckx>So every package that installs a library already needs symlinks right there.
<nckx>To work around that is going to require a lot more patching, much of it per-package, for very questionable benefit (if any). Sorry.
<nckx>Any kind of virtual file system or loop device (or whatever Android can do) is going to be easier and won't increase the maintenance burden for the entire package collection.
<nckx>I think it's quite reasonable. No unix supports FAT32 as /usr. None. /gnu/store is our /usr.
<Noclip>My problem is that my smartphone has only 16GB internal storage and most of that is already in use while my 64GB SD-card is mostly empty.
<nckx>Guix already manages to provide a pretty ‘virtualised’/isolated environment without the vfs/virtualisation overhead. That's pretty impressive IMO. Asking it to do ever more… well, at some point you have to say that A isn't B and that's OK. FAT32/NTFS aren't useful file systems for GNU. Oh well.
<nckx>Noclip: Sure, I agree it sucks for you. But blame Android for that.
<nckx>That sounded more harsh than intended. It wasn't meant as such at all.
<Noclip>I didn't mean that it's guix's fault. If anyone/anything is blame here than it's android or smartphones in general ...
<nckx>They're giving you a unixy system, then ripping it out from under you and saying you have to use FAT32 because Windows MP3s whatever.
<nckx>Reading up about the state of ‘smart’phones after our conversation yesterday has made me angry. And sad.
<Noclip>It's already insane that android is based on the linux kernel, uses ext4 or other unix filesystems for the internal storage but is at the same time unable to use anything else than fat32 for sd-cards.
<nckx>How can people trust these things with (managing) their life.
<nckx>Noclip: Exactly! ‘We can have it, but you can't be trusted.’
<nckx>(ext4 eats flash chips, by the way, use something like JFFS2 if you do.)
<Noclip>Do you mean with "eats flash chips" that it does destroy my card faster?
<nckx>Yes. SD cards are notoriously limited in the number or write cycles they can endure. Using anything ‘flash friendly’ will at least delay the inevitable.
<nckx>I don't know which one of those is best, though.
<nckx>Ask someone who actually owns a phone when you get to that point :-) (and I hope you do).
<Noclip>SD cards also seem to have no support for discard or trim like ssds have.
<nckx>They were designed to save and exchange photos and videos, once, and they do an acceptable job.
<NieDzejkob>nefix: There are a few options. you can install a package from a file with `guix install -f my-package.scm', but guix won't track the fact that it came from this file
<NieDzejkob>You can create a channel, possibly with a file:/// URL
<nckx>brettgilio: Calling Guix a black box is at best an odd take.
<brettgilio>nckx: It's what happens when you take one class on functional programming and then suddenly you just assume all pure functional languages are blackboxes, even though Scheme is neither of these things (and is of course quite imperative) lol
<roptat>nefix, the update README (just now, refresh the page)
<nckx>Noclip: ath9k dongle works fine, tablet features work fine, tablet buttons need to be scripted manually (to invoke xrandr and xinput: you have to rotate the screen and touch matrix separately!) and one doesn't work, but that's not a -libre issue.
<brettgilio>nckx: Not sure, I use a wifi dongle from think penguin. Once the patch was in it worked great again
<roptat>when running guix pull, I see Authenticating channel 'home-manager', commits b5f3295 to 81866a2 (4 new commits)...
<nckx>Noclip: not installed (into a profile) but in my store. Every time I update a package it gets built from source, so I need all the build deps, and I usually rebuild *all* dependents, so… that's a lot of stuff built for a simple bump. Times several times a day.
<brettgilio>nckx: Compared to the official Telegram client, the emacs-telega client has features that the official client lacks. For example, we support inline syntax highlighting, rendering pdflatex, and also sharing and rendering org snippets too
<vagrantc>and emacs had the best interface at the time
<vagrantc>nckx: wow. i also use vanilla emacs. I didn't know there was anyone else.
<nckx>blackbeard[m]: No. But I use other packages. I didn't mean vanilla in that sense, but that I don't take the build-my-own-editor approach (or use pre-existing total-conversion mods like spacemacs). I use emacs, so I use emacs key bindings. I rebound my control key for emacs, of course, I'm not mad.
<nckx>I use 3 or 4 packages which is vanilla by emacs standards.
<brettgilio>My emacs config is a fork of rekado 's guile-studio. I liked the idea of guix building and managing my emacs config and so I went with that
<vagrantc>usually when i tell emacs people that i try to keep my .emacs file to basically defaults, their eyes get wide like anime characters
<Noclip>brettgilio: I actually tried emacs first (~ a year ago for a few weeks) and then also decided to give vim a try and directly liked it so much that I didn't go back to emacs.
<nckx>blackbeard[m]: Maybe I'm wrong here, maybe I *should* use helm. I'm certainly not advocating sticking with the defaults, I just like being able to use emacs without saying ‘oh wait, let me scp my 200-KiB .emacs to this machine so I can open a file without using the mouse’. I don't like that.
<nckx>But I'd probably be fitter/happier/more productive with a few more packages.
<nckx>Noclip: Use what you love. I didn't expect to like emacs, I was surprised I did.
<brettgilio>nckx: Re: what I said about grokking rekado's guile-studio and replacing the internals with your own emacs config so it can be portable anywhere where guix is :)
<nckx>What's the well-known alternative to helm? It was mentioned at the Guix Days perfect set-up session. It's on my to-try list, so not awkward at all that I can't remember the name.
<Noclip>brettgilio: Before trying both (vim and emacs) I thought the emacs key bindings had to be superior because you don't have to switch between modes all the time but I soon noticed that you often have to dislocate your fingers to press a key combination. I also read about Emacs pinky at that time. However when I tried vim I just rebound "jk" and "kj" to the Esc key and noticed that with this nothing can be done faster than
<Noclip>switching between vim modes. Also using vim keys feels much better and I don't have to dislocate my fingers at all.
<Noclip>brettgilio: Maybe, but according to my experience as a result of frequent finger dislocating using vi keys seems to be faster and more efficient even if you always have to switch between modes.
<brettgilio>When I get tired I just send confusing emails to Pierre niedthart
<nckx>hendursaga: By the way, please consider posting your https://paste.debian.net/hidden/d823a19a/ (I assume it's not only xstow that's affected, but in-Guix packages too?) to either help-guix or bug-guix at gnu.org. This shouldn't happen.
<dftxbs3e>It's really great! It allows one to easily browse mailing lists without having to deal with the pain of their email providers thinking subscribing to lists are spam, and also, it has an account system and allows to reply to things through the web interface
<dftxbs3e>Main thing is, it's compatible with email-based workflows, and friendly to users who don't want to deal with email or lists and just want a forum-like experience
<KE0VVT>I use mailing lists because I DON'T want a web interface, dftxbs3e.
<KE0VVT>I want a program that provides an email mailing list interface to popular forum software.
<dftxbs3e>KE0VVT, you still can, but I want interfaces, mailing lists are plain annoying and bad UX for a lot of it
<dftxbs3e>I just interacted with it because I needed to do with their mailing lists and it was such a pleasing experience
<nckx>Interesting that they're slightly different.
<KE0VVT>dftxbs3e: Hyperkitty sounds like a good solution to get new people onto mailing lists.
<nckx>I mean, the pro-mailing list crowd (to which I belong) should welcome this. It allows sticking with mail instead of moving to Discourse (bleh) to attrackt the youthes! /s, but seriously.
<dftxbs3e>KE0VVT, Yes, it's much friendlier than having to subscribe, or think that your message to the mailing list will get rejected if you don't subscribe first, or forgetting to 'Reply-All' - all this friction is just bad and unnecessary when all people want to do is ask a question or help.
<KE0VVT>nckx: Yes. I didn't understand that before. Thanks.
<nckx>As long as we can disable the HTML editor (if there is one) I'm happy 😉
<dftxbs3e>I don't see why it wouldnt be possible - also hyperkitty serves as a better subscription manager it seems
<nckx>‘If the previous archives aren’t available locally, you need to download them from your current Mailman 2.1 installation. The file is not web-accessible.’
<nckx>dftxbs3e: Mumi (issues.guix) works by downloading the mbox files from debbugs. A Guix-run HyperKitty (=running on berlin, not FSF's mail server) would need continuous access to the FSF mailing list archives to.
<PurpleSym>Trying to package foliate, but it throws an error after starting: (com.github.johnfactotum.Foliate:34071): Gjs-WARNING **: 09:02:23.618: JS ERROR: Error: GSettings schema com.github.johnfactotum.Foliate not found
<kekoso>Hi, the same problem persists: on latest 9660 during installation, when I get to the partitioning of the disk, for example, when I try to edit any disk, an unhandle ntfs error pops up. On the stable version, it crashes, on the new version, an error pops up. Maybe I can't edit disks in guix or am I doing something wrong? two disks ssd samsung, hdd w
<kekoso>d, I edit hdd, on which there are two partitions, the second partition is external. thanks
<efraim>nefix: you need to define what "email" is, the way in keepassxc.scm every config option is defined
<jonsger>I don't understand that. I have mate-service-type installed as well as i3, when I boot into MATE everything is fine. When I switch to i3 icons in most programms (caja, icedove etc.) are missing. How can it break?
<jonsger>ah it works now in i3 after opening mate-control-center, as it seems that it created some cache...
<jonsger>because it does not look for hicolor anymore, instead it search for menta and mate icon-themes...
<efraim>I'm not really sure why git-config-home isn't working now but I can't really spend more time on it now, sorry
<nefix>efraim: no problem, thanks for all the help!
***nefix1 is now known as nefix
<nefix>another question: is there a code formatter for scheme or something like that? To make sure all the .scm files have the same spacing, identation, etc
<hendursaga>nckx: I think I'm figuring out what might be the issue. I killed the sudo -E ./pre-inst-env guix-daemon --build-users-group=guixbuild command and restarted the guix-daemon service and at least hello is compiling
<sneek>reepca was last seen in #guix one day and 9 hours ago, saying: do we have a package that provides a "geckodriver" binary?.
<nckx>hendursaga: Why were you running the daemon that way? It has its uses, but (as above bug report suggests) did you think it was *needed*?
<hendursaga>nckx: As in, guix environment guix --pure ? Hmm. If I do that it complains that I don't have sudo, so no, I didn't.
<nckx>You can hack around that by including sudo after --ad-hoc, or using `which sudo` to ‘unquote’ it 😉 But unless you have a good reason (=you've patched the daemon), you should just use the system's. The daemon changes little and care is taken to make is mostly backwards-compatible.
<nckx>So getting the command to work isn't really the point.
<hendursaga>nckx: OK, I see now. I was taking that from "Running Guix Before It Is Installed" and I guess I forgot to shut it down and use the system one :/
<hendursaga>Yup, everything's running smoothly now. I'm about to submit my 2nd patch :)
<blackbeard[m]>nckx: in my opinion guix could keep the name, I mean there is written permission by the author signed with the key that signs software
<nckx>I love your attitude but don't get bogged down installing a Hurd VM at this point. Testing ARM is already much appreciated. Ideally, *we'd* offer that service for each submitted patch. That's what CI meant, once 🙂
<NieDzejkob>(this happens because your inherited package doesn't have the version field "in scope", because you haven't defined any, so you're falling back to some procedure outside of the package definition)
<nckx>nefix: These are generic things, you can use e.g. (package-inputs bitlbee) for each package record.
<NieDzejkob>nefix: you commonly see something like (inputs `(("foo" ,foo) ,@(package-inputs bitlbee)))
<NieDzejkob>okay, then let us know when you're having the problem again
<nefix>so, for example I have this overlay in a file called 'messaging.scm', how can I import it
<NieDzejkob>hmm, I'm somewhat confused as to what you want to achieve as I've never used Nix :P
<nefix>it's like having the code in two files: in 'config.scm' I have all the things, but I also have 'overlays.scm' and there's the definition there. So I can "import" 'overlays.scm' inside 'config.scm' and use the values defined there
<nefix>Is there an example of a really simple channel?
<NieDzejkob>nefix: create a git repo, say ~/my-channel, and put the file in ~/my-channel/nefix/packages/bitlbee.scm. Add (define-module (nefix packages bitlbee)) to the top of the file. You may also need some #:use-modules parameters. Add a channel with file:///home/nefix/my-channel as the URL to ~/.config/guix/channels.scm, run guix pull. You may now import your file as (nefix packages bitlbee)
<roptat>yeah, but I never had an issue with it before, and I haven't done any update lately
<Noclip>nckx: Does the nix importer require nix to be installed on the system?
<efraim>I believe it needs a local nix checkout but it hasn't been tested in forever
<Noclip>It seems to need the command "nix-instantiate" which comes as part of nix. Unfortunately the nix importer seems pretty much useless if you have to install nix anyways ...
<NieDzejkob>Noclip: why does that mean it's useless? one person imports the package with nix installed, submits it for submission in Guix, other people don't need nix to use the package?
<Noclip>NieDzejkob: Ok, maybe not completely useless but it would be much more interesting if it could directly connect to the nix pkgs online git repo or would only require a local copy of that repo but not the entire nix package manager to be installed.
<nckx>Noclip: I believe so. I've never used it myself.
<nefix>how am I supposed to add the telegram-purple plugin to pidgin? It searches it under ~/.purple/plugins, but it's not there
<nefix>should I symlink it to /gnu/store/telegram-purple/lib ?
<nckx>nefix: That will break when it's (or any dependency is updated). Install it into your profile.
<Noclip>This really irritates me: "WARNING: IceCat 68 has not yet been released by the upstream IceCat project. This is a preview release, and does not currently meet the privacy-respecting standards of the IceCat project."
<vagrantc>icecat audits firefox to remove features built-in to firefox that are arguably privacy issues
<vagrantc>basically, it's just saying that they haven't done as thorough of an audit
<nckx>Noclip: It doesn't mention security? Nor does ‘privacy issues’. It means there's a little tweak somewhere that the previous icecat version had disabled, and that they can't currently get to work with this ‘preview’, or whatever. So for example, perhaps it ‘leaks’ your IP address (😮) if you WebRTC your aunt on a Tuesday. Or something. Nothing serious.
<nckx>If you want in-depth details about this ask #icecat, they'll know more.
<nckx>Compared to literally any other browser it's privacy bliss.
<Noclip>NieDzejkob: Because firefox seems to be the most requested guix package on the internet that no one has managed to build yet. (I know that firefox isn't compatable with the main repo due to trademark issues.)
<Noclip>I think the golden way would be to do it like F-Droid: Take the firefox source, remove/replace all proprietary parts (in case it has some), give it a new name and then ship it officially with the guix repo.
<nckx>Noclip: Firefox's trademark has no bearing on its free-ness, that's just a persistent myth. It's not in Guix because it recommends proprietary software by default (not allowed by FSDG). That's it.
<nckx>IceCat could have been that, but they chose to make many more changes + add default add-ons.
<Noclip>alextee: I've already read several times that guix users couldn't use icecat due to stability issues or missing addon/feature support and as a long time firefox user I can completely understand that one doesn't just want to give up firefox and go with chromium.
<Noclip>nckx: So all you have to do to make firefox fsdg compatable is to remove all built in links to mozillas addon pages and if that's not compatable with the firefox trademark also change it's name, right?
<Noclip>Privacytools.io have a simple tutorial on how to disable webrtc in firefox by changing some settings. If icecat would just have those settings changed by default one should be able to just reactivate it by changing the settings again: https://www.privacytools.io/browsers/#webrtc
<nckx>I don't understand the point of WebRTC though. It seems to be for video/voice chat(!?). That's… not a Web browser's job, and clearly a bad idea or it would actually work.
<nckx>‘Bug: my PDF reader won't play podcasts.’ OK.
*nckx is procrastinating to avoid work 🙂 nckx → work.
<Noclip>vagrantc: How do they use it if their browser doesn't even support it? 😂
<nckx>I don't understand why it can't be as easy as ‘guix/apt/dnfoo install jitsi && jitsi’. Done. Why embed part of your code into (all) browsers, wait for everyone to upgrade to that browser, then… call webrtc.domyjob()? Anyway, that's a question for Jitsi, not for you, and I'm out of big rant energy.
<Noclip>Can I create a read-only environment with "guix environment"? (Everything except for writeable filesystem access should be available just as it is outside of the environment. If I could write in the environment but everything gets cleaned after leaving it that would be even better.)