IRC channel logs

<nckx>If you used the installer script, it created /etc/profile.d/guix.sh, which sources that.

<nckx>All sane^Wcontemporary distributions in turn include an /etc/profile that sources everything in /etc/profile.d.

***ryanprior1 is now known as ryanprior

<tricon>nckx: That worked! Thank you very, very much.

<Noclip>Ohhh, I checked /etc/profile.d/ only before installing guix but not after ... thanks.

<nckx>tricon: Great! The fix was simple (someone had updated the guile-foo packages to be 3.x, while nomad expects 2.2) but as often uncovered another bug too: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=19cf83426a2e8c07669c0b5f801977b707c645ac

<nckx>I never noticed how misleading ‘error: please install foo’ build warnings are for new users. Good thing we hide them by default.

<Noclip>nckx: "One word: symlinks. The store must support them."

<Noclip>That should be a problem with fat32 :-/

<Noclip>Could it be possible for the store to even work somehow without symlinks?

<nckx>Noclip: It's not a hard requirement of the store or Guix itself. While I'm sure there are parts of Guix that assume the store is a Unix file system, most or all of those could be patched.

<nckx>Noclip: The real problem is what we store in the store: thousands of GNU/unix packages, all alike in their assumption that $prefix is a unixy file system, and that ‘make install’ can create symlinks, and (big one) that libfoo.so → libfoo.so.x → libfoo.so.x.y.z links work.

<nckx>So every package that installs a library already needs symlinks right there.

<nckx>To work around that is going to require a lot more patching, much of it per-package, for very questionable benefit (if any). Sorry.

<nckx>Any kind of virtual file system or loop device (or whatever Android can do) is going to be easier and won't increase the maintenance burden for the entire package collection.

<nckx>Anything else is just not going to work.

<Noclip>That's sad.

<nckx>I think it's quite reasonable. No unix supports FAT32 as /usr. None. /gnu/store is our /usr.

<Noclip>My problem is that my smartphone has only 16GB internal storage and most of that is already in use while my 64GB SD-card is mostly empty.

<nckx>Guix already manages to provide a pretty ‘virtualised’/isolated environment without the vfs/virtualisation overhead. That's pretty impressive IMO. Asking it to do ever more… well, at some point you have to say that A isn't B and that's OK. FAT32/NTFS aren't useful file systems for GNU. Oh well.

<nckx>Noclip: Sure, I agree it sucks for you. But blame Android for that.

<nckx>That sounded more harsh than intended. It wasn't meant as such at all.

<Noclip>I didn't mean that it's guix's fault. If anyone/anything is blame here than it's android or smartphones in general ...

<nckx>They're giving you a unixy system, then ripping it out from under you and saying you have to use FAT32 because Windows MP3s whatever.

<nckx>Yeah.

<nckx>Reading up about the state of ‘smart’phones after our conversation yesterday has made me angry. And sad.

<Noclip>It's already insane that android is based on the linux kernel, uses ext4 or other unix filesystems for the internal storage but is at the same time unable to use anything else than fat32 for sd-cards.

<nckx>How can people trust these things with (managing) their life.

<nckx>Noclip: Exactly! ‘We can have it, but you can't be trusted.’

<nckx>(ext4 eats flash chips, by the way, use something like JFFS2 if you do.)

<Noclip>Do you mean with "eats flash chips" that it does destroy my card faster?

<nckx>Yes. SD cards are notoriously limited in the number or write cycles they can endure. Using anything ‘flash friendly’ will at least delay the inevitable.

<nckx>I don't know which one of those is best, though.

<nckx>Ask someone who actually owns a phone when you get to that point :-) (and I hope you do).

<Noclip>SD cards also seem to have no support for discard or trim like ssds have.

<nckx>They were designed to save and exchange photos and videos, once, and they do an acceptable job.

<Noclip>Does exFAT support symlinks?

<nckx>Noclip: Nope.

<nckx>I admire your tenacity. Doesn't Android support at least the same file system it uses for internal flash for external cards? Sounds mad not to.

<nckx>s/mad/evil/

<nckx>Not compiling in ext4 support if one don't use it in the product is defensible.

<nckx>*won't

<NieDzejkob>maybe proot will let you mount /dev/loop or something?

<Noclip>NieDzejkob: I've already thought about that but it seems that proot doesn't support loop devices.

<Noclip>(But I'm not 100% sure.)

<nckx>NieDzejkob: proot is just a clever bind mounter. To mount -o loop you'd have to convince the kernel you're root, and the only way to do that is… to be root.

<Formbi>yeah

<nckx>Or find a 0-day in the kernel.

<Formbi>one can use an ext4 card on Android

<nckx>They buy a proper computer with the bounty.

<nckx>Formbi: Excellent sanity.

<NieDzejkob>Or write a userspace ext4 driver and hook it into proot's ptrace shenanigans

<Noclip>But if it can fake bind mounts shouldn't it than also be possible to fake loop mounts?

<brettgilio>Hey all, anybody have experience using debootstrap on guix system?

<nckx>Not without writing a user-space file system driver. Or FUSE.

<brettgilio>I need a debian environment, but dont want to use qemu if I dont have to

<nckx>Or all other cool things that I'm sure don't work on phones.

<NieDzejkob>(which is a user-space file system driver)

<NieDzejkob>brettgilio: I guess there's also docker...

<nckx>NieDzejkob: Which has permission to tie into the kernel. Important perk.

<nckx>Anyway, at that point, you're writing Qemu, so just install Qemu.

<nckx>Enable KVM in your phone's BIOS and enjoy.

<Formbi>I'm gonna say it again

*nckx runs.

<Formbi>doing hacky stuff on a non-rooted phone is a nightmare

<nckx>But something something supercomputers in our pockets ☹

<Formbi>rooted Android phone isn't bad

<Formbi>a GNU/Linux one would be much better tho

<nckx>Imagine a phone running the Hurd.

<nckx>I would pay multiple euros for that, at least. 😮

<Noclip>"Enable KVM in your phone's BIOS and enjoy."

<Noclip>I think phones don't have a BIOS at all.

<brettgilio>nckx, no you wouldnt you cheap fool

<brettgilio>:)

<nckx>Noclip: It was a stupid dig at the shittiness of telephones.

<Formbi>if the Hurd itself would run :)

<Noclip>xD

<nckx>brettgilio: Fool. I'm mad enough to pay good money for a 9-year-old ThinkPad. What makes you think I don't have some left?

<brettgilio>I use a 7 year old thinkpad, fight me

<brettgilio>T430 gang rise up

<brettgilio>no librepoot tho

<brettgilio>NieDzejkob: Don't talk docker to me, I will spontaneously evaporate

<brettgilio>I'll just go with QEMU :)

<Noclip>Mine should be also around 7 years old. Also bought it as used a year ago.

<nckx>My partner runs Windows on her T430, can she be in your gang? My X230T is the bomb but no libreboot support at all.

<bandali>librebooted X200 represent

<nckx>brettgilio: Maybe ask efraim or vagrantc.

<brettgilio>bandali: Nobody asked you.

<brettgilio>:)

<nckx>bandali: You some kind of Free Software nerd.

<brettgilio>Clearly.

<brettgilio>We dont like those kinds here

<NieDzejkob>brettgilio: well, you'll get to share the kernel... what was the other thing, lxc?

<bandali>oh good to know!

<Noclip>nckx: We do have the same laptop :DD

*bandali pulls out /part

<bandali>i'll go back to #trisquel land ;-)

<NieDzejkob>argh. I also had to switch quassel to qt-build-system and that makes it include references to various weird stuff like extra-cmake-modules, increasing the closure by 200 MB

<nckx>bandali: You'll be back! (I hope 🙂)

<nckx>NieDzejkob: That, specifically, sounds like a very strange run-time reference to retain.

<NieDzejkob>damn XDG_DATA_DIRS

<NieDzejkob>nckx: I know, right?

<nckx>Is that common to all q-b-s packages? Sounds like you might be reducing the average closure soon 😉

<brettgilio>bandali: Are you president of the FSF yet?

<bandali>nckx, is that a challenge? :-p

<bandali>brettgilio, so, about that...

<nckx>You'll be back. We have cookies.

<nckx>They only have Triscuits.

<bandali>lol

<brettgilio>im listening :)

<bandali>brettgilio, not just yet, maaaybe one day ;-)

<NieDzejkob>nckx: q-b-s includes references to every build input that has a /share dir

<nckx>Flippin jeez.

*bandali scrambles to find a HOWTO on upgrading membership/internship into presidency

<NieDzejkob>(and all of them do because /share/doc/foo/LICENSE

<NieDzejkob>guix/build/qt-build-system.scm:93: ;; FIXME: Filter out unwanted inputs, e.g. cmake

*nckx lols.

<nckx>I've written FIXMEs like that before.

*brettgilio tries to find a way to convince Drew DeVault to appreciate LISP and Guix instead of slamming us on mastodon

<nckx>Eh? ☹

<nckx>Oh, I remember that nick from my Exherbo days.

<nckx>They're slamming Guix? Shame.

<brettgilio>Drew is the guy who does Sway, Sr.ht and others

<brettgilio>a very talented programmer

<brettgilio>but has some hot takes for opinions on functional programming and guix

<Noclip>nckx: Do you use the linux-libre kernel?

<nckx> https://cmpwn.com/@sir/104571649645952422 at least some of them 100% correct.

<brettgilio>Yeah, he isnt all wrong

<nckx>Noclip: I do, with an unsightly dongle that I'm always worried will rip out one of my USB ports.

<brettgilio>nckx: [18:17]

<brettgilio><nckx> Eh? ☹

<brettgilio><nckx> Oh, I remember that nick from my Exherbo days. [18:18]

<brettgilio><nckx> They're slamming Guix? Shame.

*NieDzejkob still hopes to write free firmware for their wifi chipset

<brettgilio><brettgilio> Drew is the guy who does Sway, Sr.ht and others

<brettgilio><brettgilio> a very talented programmer

<brettgilio><brettgilio> but has some hot takes for opinions on functional programming and

<brettgilio> guix [18:19]

<NieDzejkob>brettgilio: pastefail?

<brettgilio><Noclip> nckx: Do you use the linux-libre kernel? [18:20]

<brettgilio><nckx> https://cmpwn.com/@sir/104571649645952422

<brettgilio>wtf

<brettgilio>oops

<brettgilio> https://cmpwn.com/@sir/104485092842420056

<brettgilio>yeah

<brettgilio>sorry

*brettgilio hides

<brettgilio>you can ban me onw

<nefix>NieDzejkob: so, I've written a .smc, but I have no idea how to overlay it with the current running system or something like that

<sneek>nefix, you have 1 message!

<sneek>nefix, roptat says: I fixed it and updated the README. you should run "guix pull" again to get the latest code, then create the two symlinks like the instructions now say

<nckx>brettgilio: It happens.

<nefix>sneek: thanks!!!!

<nckx>sneek: botsnack

<sneek>:)

<brettgilio>nckx: anyways that was the toot I mentioned

<nckx>sneek: Who is sneek?

<sneek>From what I understand, Sneek is just picky…

<Noclip>I've used a usb installed linux on another pc for some time but always took the usb-stick out after shut down because I was afraid someone could walk against it and rip it apart ...

<Noclip>(nckx )

<NieDzejkob>nefix: There are a few options. you can install a package from a file with `guix install -f my-package.scm', but guix won't track the fact that it came from this file

<NieDzejkob>You can create a channel, possibly with a file:/// URL

<nckx>brettgilio: Calling Guix a black box is at best an odd take.

<brettgilio>nckx: It's what happens when you take one class on functional programming and then suddenly you just assume all pure functional languages are blackboxes, even though Scheme is neither of these things (and is of course quite imperative) lol

*brettgilio shrug

<nefix>roptat: the introduction signature seems to break the channel

<NieDzejkob>and you can put it into your own fork of the guix repository (also possibly local) and replace the guix channel while you wait for inclusion upstream

<nckx>It's also what happens when you think OpenBSD is ‘simple’ and ‘elegant’.

<roptat>nefix, I must have done something wrong

<brettgilio>nckx: I think he uses alpine too

<nefix>it seems to be the same signature as the one I have of another channel. Is this right?

<NieDzejkob>I think I'll need to compile a list of all subdirectories of $XDG_DATA_DIRS qt can use

<NieDzejkob>I've located /applications, /mime, and /icons so far

<roptat>nefix, mh... try with b5f32950a8fa9c05efb27a0014f9b336bb318d69 as the commit?

<nckx>sneek: What is Guix?

<sneek>I could be wrong, but guix is a functional package management tool for the GNU system

<nefix>roptat: how should I try it?

<roptat>nefix, replace the commit in the channel introduction in your channels.scm

<brettgilio>nckx: Drew has also been vocal about everything being statically linked by default should be the norm

<nefix>roptat: now it complains about another signature

<Noclip>nckx: Are there any (driver) issues with the libre kernel on the x230t?

<nckx>Noclip: Not that I've found.

<brettgilio>I had a driver issue recently that was patched for the atheros driver. But I keep my kernel held back with an inferior so it was easy to fix

<roptat>nefix, works here...

<roptat>maybe clean your cache? (rm -rf ~/.cache/guix)

<Noclip>So wlan, touch and pen usage all works fine?

<nckx>brettgilio: I've heard that. Does it only affect (some) -htc devices? Mine is fine.

<nefix>which signature are you using?

<nefix>roptat: ^

<roptat>nefix, the update README (just now, refresh the page)

<nckx>Noclip: ath9k dongle works fine, tablet features work fine, tablet buttons need to be scripted manually (to invoke xrandr and xinput: you have to rotate the screen and touch matrix separately!) and one doesn't work, but that's not a -libre issue.

<brettgilio>nckx: Not sure, I use a wifi dongle from think penguin. Once the patch was in it worked great again

<roptat>when running guix pull, I see Authenticating channel 'home-manager', commits b5f3295 to 81866a2 (4 new commits)...

<roptat>and it completes with no error

<nefix>roptat: guix pull: error: initial commit b5f32950a8fa9c05efb27a0014f9b336bb318d69 is signed by '1EFB 0909 1F17 D28C CBF9 B13A 53D4 57B2 D636 EE82' instead of '2A39 3FFF 68F4 EF7A 3D29 12AF 6F51 20A0 22FB B2D5'

<blackbeard[m]>nckx: my ath9k also works perfectly

<roptat>oh!

<roptat>you're right that's not my key

<nefix>:)

<roptat>I copied from the documentation (or another channel)

<roptat>the key is 1EFB 0909 1F17 D28C CBF9 B13A 53D4 57B2 D636 EE82

<roptat>which is also the one you'll find in the keyring branch if you need to check

<nckx>Noclip: If you're paranoid about battery wear like me: acpi-call-linux-module & tpacpi-bat work too. I packaged them for this machine.

<roptat>sorry for the confusion

<nckx>brettgilio: I use a no-name dongle I literally found under a cupboard in my uncle's attic, much professional.

<nckx>‘Oh, neat.’

<brettgilio>nckx: At least give it a name.

<brettgilio>Roseanna

<nckx>Rippy.

<nckx>The port ripper.

<Noclip>nckx: The buttons also don't work with the non-free kernel / other linux distros. I use a script for rotating the screen that I can trigger with a .desktop starter in my task-bar.

<brettgilio>Rotating the screen? Do you have one of those fancy coding monitors?

<nckx>Noclip: I got the middle (‘refresh’-looking mf) one to work, but it's… interesting.

<nefix>roptat: uh, so it's authenticating 3700 commits of guix...

<nckx>brettgilio: Better. https://www.lenovo.com/medias/lenovo-tablet-thinkpad-x230t-convertible-main.png

<nefix>let's see if it ends... xD

<brettgilio>Is there a way to run the time-machine with the latest commit in your cache?

<brettgilio>instead of pulling from master every time

<roptat>nefix, yeah that's expected if that's your second pull after installing

<brettgilio>I mean I know I can pass --commit... but im lazy

<roptat>the version you installed didn't support channel authentication, the second guix pull uses a guix that supports it, so it authenticates everything

<nefix>roptat: I see!

<Noclip>nckx: "ath9k dongle" --> So the built in wlan doesn't work?

<brettgilio>My built in wlan works on linux-libre, but I have a t430

<brettgilio>my mistake

<nckx>Noclip: I wrote a ‘tabletd’ script that listens on /dev/input/eventFoo and calls rotate-screen.sh when ‘something’ comes out (it doesn't care what). It, surprisingly, works.

<brettgilio>no it doesnt

<brettgilio>iwlwifi rip

<nckx>Noclip: No.

<nckx>It needs non-free firmware.

<brettgilio>^

<nckx>And cannot be replaced.

<brettgilio>nckx: BIOS whitelist?

<nckx>Yes.

<brettgilio>same i think

<brettgilio>i think that can be flashed tho

<brettgilio>but idk how to do that and dont want to bother

<nckx>So you can flash coreboot, but the T models make this challenging to say the least. They are quite different from the non-T x30s.

<nckx>Where the chip is downright accessible and happy to be flashed.

<nckx>The Ts need soldering and a very steady hand.

<nckx>I do not own one.

<brettgilio>you need to borrow a steady hand, mate?

<brettgilio>hahah

<nckx>brettgilio: If you have experience with flashing and live nearby, sure 🙂

<brettgilio>You can fly out to Kansas City, MO and we will host a COVID Guix Workshop

<nckx>KC? No way.

<brettgilio>nckx: I dont blame you.

<nckx>I'm watching KC on my T right now.

<nckx>Amazingly, they are not losing for once.

<Noclip>wtf: "guix gc: 2.869,10246 MiB"

<brettgilio>nckx: Royals?

<Formbi>brettgilio: ah, so that Drew guy is basically another one of the Enlightened Ones™ like the guys from suckless, cat-v.org without-systemd and so on

<brettgilio>Formbi: Correct

<Formbi>nothing new TBH

<nefix>roptat: it seems to have worked!!!

<brettgilio>Don't get me wrong, Drew is at least a decent programmer. I just dont like his opinions, choice of languages, philosophy of programming, or anything else except the things he makes

<brettgilio>:)

<nefix>thanks!!!

<nefix>:D

<nckx>brettgilio: Correct.

<roptat>nefix, cool!

<brettgilio>Suckless: If it ain't C89, statically linked, and without any dependencies then it is bloat and it sucks

<nefix>Now, let's get hands down to try writting some simple stuff...

<brettgilio>nckx: we won a world series like 5ish years ago, do we suck now?

<Formbi>suckless guys made st

<nckx>brettgilio: Well, we ain't doin' great, no.

<Formbi>but their views are pretty yikesy

<nckx>Formbi: Yeah, suckless is… well, it was the first thing I thought of earlier above, and then I thought of something more pleasant.

<nckx>Like puppies. I highly recommend it.

<Noclip>@Guix-system users: How big is your store?

<brettgilio>Noclip: I think that depends on how many generations we have laying around

<nckx>Noclip: 45G.

<brettgilio>I also have some packages with some pretty large closures

<nckx>Yeah, it doesn't mean much.

<Noclip>Uff

<nckx>I do a lot of development on this machine so I'm not going to GC for the hell of it.

<brettgilio>I think my system is on its 106th generation? and my main profile is on its 300ths

<Noclip>45G is insane.

<brettgilio>Noclip: But like we said, 45g could be any number of generations

<brettgilio>Correction: My system is on 122, my profile is on 357

<brettgilio>:)

<nckx>guix size `readlink -m /run/current-system/profile` → 3.7G, which might be suspiciously low.

<Formbi>nckx: isn't it just the system stuff?

<Formbi>not the user?

<nckx>guix size `readlink -m ~/.guix-profile` → ~13G, but it's pretty insane and a mess.

<brettgilio>guix size `readlink -m /run/current-system/profile` -> 3062.7MiB

<nckx> https://paste.debian.net/plain/1157805

<nckx>check out the flight sim etc.

<nckx>So not representative either.

<nckx>OTOH I don't use Gnome etc.

<Noclip>nckx: So you do have a lot of packages installed that you only need for developement?

<brettgilio>nckx: StumpWM gang?

<Formbi>StumpWM gang UwU

<brettgilio>Formbi: Ayyy

<nckx>Noclip: not installed (into a profile) but in my store. Every time I update a package it gets built from source, so I need all the build deps, and I usually rebuild *all* dependents, so… that's a lot of stuff built for a simple bump. Times several times a day.

<nckx>brettgilio: i3 club.

<brettgilio>btw, Formbi: If you track master instead of the version in guix there is some nice additions that dont have a tag yet

*nckx adjusts monocle.

<bandali>EXWM represent

<nckx>brettgilio: We won! If you care.

<brettgilio>nckx: Boo.

*bandali , the original holder of unpopular opinions in #guix

<pkill9>a pinephone running guix system would be neat

<brettgilio>bandali: Imagine using emacs as a parent process for X.

<brettgilio>ahhaha

<bandali>brettgilio, no need to imagine when you actually do it ;-)

<Formbi>brettgilio: what additions?

<bandali>i'd work on getting emacs running as pid 1 if i had the time ;-)

<nckx>brettgilio: …oh. OK then. ☹

<Formbi>bandali: EXWM is hard to setup for me

<Formbi>plus the blocking…

*nckx celebrates alone.

<nefix>roptat: hmmm it doesn't seem to find guix home again... :/

<nckx>Formbi: By ‘blocking’ do you mean exactly what I think you mean when I hear ‘emacs as window manager’?

<Formbi>most likely

<Noclip>Could I use a lot of packages while staying below 2G with guix?

<nckx>brb C-g'ing my DE.

<Formbi>xD

<brettgilio>Formbi: Some nice changes to frame lists, some asynchronous modeline stuff, and completions on prompts

<bandali>Formbi, hard to setup in what sense?

<Formbi>the keys and other stuff

<bandali>re blocking, in practice i haven't had any real issues with it thus far

<bandali>ha

<brettgilio>bandali: Use StumpWM you noob

<brettgilio>:)

<Formbi>I have problems on a non-EXWM Emacs :/

<nckx>This is what we get for allowing religious discussion in #guix.

<bandali>Formbi, i guess you could look into exwm configs of others online to get some ideas :-)

<bandali>brettgilio, meh, get on my level :-p

<brettgilio>bandali: https://ibb.co/Ns5cz1k Look at these nice gaps I have that youre missing out on

<pkill9>anyone using swaywm?

<nefix>pkill9: I just installed it a while ago!

<Formbi>brettgilio: frame lists?; I use an external panel anyway; wasn't there completion before?

<nefix>(I was already using it though)

<brettgilio>Formbi: not that I recall

<brettgilio>I mean with tab yes

<brettgilio>but this gives suggestions

<Formbi>so how does it look now?

<brettgilio>Formbi: One sec i'll screen shot

<Formbi>BTW gaps bleh

<nckx>pkill9: Do you?

<Formbi>and what is that GNU Group thingy?

<brettgilio>Formbi: Group I run on Telegram

<Noclip>Why do you want gaps? Doesn't seem to be very efficient!

<brettgilio>Formbi: https://ibb.co/k6RDMFx

<Noclip>(At least not if they are so big.)

<brettgilio>Noclip: A E S T H E T I C S

<bandali>brettgilio, sure, gaps look cool and all, but i've decided screen space is scarce enough on X200 as is, so i'm content with not having them :-)

<Formbi>this

<nckx>brettgilio: Which Telegram client is that?

<bandali>pkill9, nckx, i have used swaywm in the past; it's cool. mostly i3-esque, but a bit better

<nefix>roptat: nvm it's working

<Formbi>telega probably

<brettgilio>nckx: emacs-telega. One I co-maintain

<brettgilio> https://github.com/zevlg/telega.el

<nckx>Ah cool. I saw it in the commit logs (or my mailbox?) today.

<Formbi>brettgilio: oh, these completions aren't bad

<Formbi>but I think rofi is nicer

<nckx>bandali: Not on Guix System by any chance?

<nckx>I want to switch to Wayland but in the laziest way possible: it has to work out of the box on Guix System, kthx.

<nckx>Until then, I wait.

<bandali>nckx, swaywm? let me think... hmm, probably not. but on parabola and debian

<brettgilio>nckx: Yeah, Guix is by far the most popular way to install Telega (at least when we surveyed the users awhile back, Guix beat melpa and git checkouts by a solid 20% margin)

<nckx>Oh and no GDM.

<brettgilio>So I try to keep it updated.

<brettgilio>Because I have the emacs-telega package install and manage the server and tdlib automatically, which is a pain in the ass on non-guix systems

<brettgilio>because tdlib is so absurdly slow to compile

<nckx>brettgilio: I like how you take that in a positive stride and not ‘damn, we have few users’. It really is great news.

<brettgilio>nckx: Currently, telega is the only telegram client on guix if you dont include telegram-purple :)

<brettgilio>which... nobody does

<nckx>lol

<nckx>I don't get the joke but I laugh.

<brettgilio>bandali: Btw. I'm talking to Evgeny, the other co-maintainer of telega aobut giving a talk on telega for EmacsConf

<brettgilio>i'll let you know what he says

<bandali>brettgilio, +1

<Formbi>purple is some pidgin thingy

<brettgilio>nckx: Compared to the official Telegram client, the emacs-telega client has features that the official client lacks. For example, we support inline syntax highlighting, rendering pdflatex, and also sharing and rendering org snippets too

<Formbi>OwO

<Formbi>also one could install standard Telegram thru flatpak

<nckx>I'm installing mine now.

<brettgilio>nckx: installing what?

<nckx>telega.

<brettgilio>Formbi: But guix deprectates flatpak :(

<Formbi>brettgilio: hmm?

<brettgilio>Formbi: Mostly a joke, I just think guix makes alot of other package managers and systems kind of irrelevant :)

<brettgilio>but thats just my opinion

<Formbi>ah

<Formbi>yeah, but Flatpak has some things Guix doesn't

<brettgilio>nckx: Heres the optional contrib for syntax highlighting. I have the contribs install to <prefix>/emacs/telega-contrib and get autoloaded so you just need to run (require 'telega-mnz) to get the functionality https://github.com/zevlg/telega.el/blob/master/contrib/telega-mnz.el

<nckx>brettgilio: Hm, it asks for a phone number, which I don't have, but I can't seem to find an option to use e-mail.

<Noclip>Wait, the store deduplicates with hard links, right?

<brettgilio>nckx: Unfortunately Telegram registers with phone numbers only

<nckx>Yes. Identical files are stored only once.

<brettgilio>which sucks

<nckx>……ah.

<Noclip>Does du count them several times then?

<brettgilio>sorry :/

<brettgilio> https://paste.sr.ht/~brettgilio/fe6b2f1b0dd88fb8c8aaf05393a78450eb29db48 One possible downside of telega is this absurdly large closure.

<Noclip>"Unfortunately Telegram registers with phone numbers only"

<Noclip>One of the reasons to use matrix instead ...

<nckx>Noclip: I didn't think so.

<nckx>☝ du.

<Formbi>but Riot totally screwed up the authentication

<Formbi>recently

<Noclip>"currently hard linking saves 342.12 MiB"

<Noclip>"$ du -sh /gnu

<Noclip>811M /gnu"

<nckx>brettgilio: That's unfortunate. I have a phone number of sorts, but it's a Belgian landline that I never use and it seems like a safe guess that it's not what they mean.

<hendursaga>Formbi: Isn't it called Element now or something?

<Formbi>I don't think so

<Noclip>hendursaga: Yes

<Formbi>really?

<brettgilio>Methods for reducing closure size without sacrificing functionality?

<Noclip>They did a full rebranding from Riot to Element.

<brettgilio>Noclip: Yep, a few days ago

<nckx>Ah, it seems they do support ‘voice messages’. Still creepy, and I think I'll opt out of Telegram ☹

<KE0VVT>Noclip: I got so used to Riot...

<KE0VVT>Noclip: And wasn't Riot called something else before?

<brettgilio>nckx: safe bet :)

<KE0VVT>nckx: What is creepy about voice messages?

<nckx>Not that, but that they insist on tying my account to a phone number (=address, at least).

<Noclip>KE0VVT: I don't think that it had a different name before. At least not in the last years.

<brettgilio>nckx: I think Google offers some burner number thing through google voice or something idk

<brettgilio>i wouldnt trust that either tho

<nckx>☝ , and I thought it was US-only but never checked that assumption, and prefer to avoid Google anyway.

<Noclip>I don't like phone numbers.

<nckx>My point is it's more tedium and thought than I'm willing to give for ‘oh cool another Guix group I could check out’ on a whim.

<brettgilio>nckx: Dont sweat it :)

<nckx>🙂

<brettgilio>Remember, Guix is a blackbox anyways

*brettgilio chuckles

<nckx>Yes, it's literally a black box with ‘Guix’ on it: http://guix.gnu.org/download/

<nckx>I wouldn't trust it if I were you.

<brettgilio>spooky

<brettgilio>I should probably alert the populous on mastodon about this spooky thig

<Noclip>"but Riot totally screwed up the authentication"

<Noclip>Formbi What do mean by that? Can explain or send a link please?

<brettgilio>Noclip: I think recently the official matrix servers had a vulnerability around authentication

<brettgilio>Recently = ~1yr ago

<nckx>The Hurd is several white boxes, but I shudder to think what Drew would think of those scary complex arrows. http://guix.gnu.org/download/latest/

<brettgilio>nckx: We should rebase Hurd on l4 and drop mach

<brettgilio>that way he hates it even omre

<nckx>brettgilio: But conceptually? While serious, an vulnerability in implementation/process can happen to anyone.

<KE0VVT>nckx: I have a JMP number, so I don't care about phone number any more than an email address.

<brettgilio>Whats a JMP number?

<Noclip>brettgilio: I'm not using the official matrix servers.

<KE0VVT>Noclip: I love phone numbers. The telephone system is often the best workaround to avoid proprietary software, e-commerce, and apps.

<Formbi>Noclip: I tried to authenticate using the new thing and it wasn't showing up in the other device

<KE0VVT>Noclip: For example, the telephone system allows tracking a package without loading proprietary JavaScript.

*brettgilio DDGs "JMP Number"

<nckx>brettgilio won't find it.

<brettgilio>nckx: you're right

<brettgilio>I didnt

<nckx> https://jmp.chat/

<nckx>Via DDG! But it was on page 2, where no human ever ventures.

<nckx>I *guess* that's it?

<brettgilio>theres a page 2?

<KE0VVT>nckx: You don't know about Denver Gingerich's JMP?

<KE0VVT>I would be lost without an SMS bridge.

*brettgilio wonders if KE0VVT is high.

*KE0VVT wonders if brettgilio can make him so

<nckx>I'll tell you more, I don't know about Denver Gingerich. Denver Airport, sure. Newt Gingrich too. But not this. Never this.

<brettgilio>^

<brettgilio>Denver Gingerich sounds like Newt Gingrich's new bar and grill in the denver airport

<nckx>(It's AGPL3+ so I like it and would vote for JMP for president.)

<KE0VVT>He was at LibrePlanet...

<brettgilio>KE0VVT: So is the link nckx sent the right one?

<KE0VVT>Yes.

*nckx wasn't.

<nckx>I watched most of the stream but must've missed that.

<brettgilio>I decided to have a baby instead of going to libreplanet or fosdem lul

<Noclip>brettgilio: Do you mean that one? https://www.zdnet.com/article/matrix-hack-forces-servers-offline-user-credentials-leaked/

<Noclip>That only affected the matrix.org homeserver and the attacker actually didn't get access to the system through the matrix server software.

<brettgilio>Noclip: I was mostly just parroting when I remember hearing. Dont trust me for anything :)

<nckx>KE0VVT: I like the idea, it's a nice piece in the libre-phone-without-a-baseband puzzle.

<nckx>If I ever get a phone it won't be a phone so that's good to know.

<KE0VVT>brettgilio: You have a new child? Mazzal tov!

<brettgilio>KE0VVT: 7 months old. *cries*

<brettgilio>grows too fast

<nckx>What it's built upon is also neat: https://wom.community/

<brettgilio>I decided to put off going for a PhD in Math, and instead decided to have a baby. hahaha

<brettgilio>I'll get that phd one day

<brettgilio>maybe

<brettgilio>not in Kansas City tho

<nckx>brettgilio: Why not?

<brettgilio>nckx: Nobody in Kansas City studies constructive mathematics, * type theory, or category theory sadly

<brettgilio>id be stuck doing like... analysis or statistics or something

<nckx>Like a peasant.

<brettgilio>Exactly. A peasant. ;)

<brettgilio>If you mention Coq in a math department here, they just think youre a perv.

<Formbi>xDD

<Noclip>Is there a way to show the guix manual with vi keys? "info --vi" behaves very weird.

<brettgilio>back in a bit. setting up znc on a different server

<brettgilio>Im back. Did you miss me?

<brettgilio>good

<brettgilio>I moved my ZNC bouncer to my new server

<nckx>One can feel the freshness. Using Guix, I hope.

<brettgilio>Debian on the server :). Sorry

<nckx>Noclip: That's the documented way, I'm not aware of any sekrit better mode. vi? weird? Well, probably, but how is it misbehaving?

<Noclip>nckx: g is putting my back at the main page and G is putting me on some other page for example.

<nckx>brettgilio: Do DO offer a Guix System image?

<brettgilio>nckx: How'd you know I was using DO?

<brettgilio>and no

*nckx is hacker.

<Noclip>Normally g should put me at the top of the current page and G at the buttom.

<nckx>Noclip: So ‘page’ here is… the entire manual.

<nckx>I'm not a vim user but I guess they chose the abstraction manual = 1 document, or whatever. If vim has the concept of pages I guess they should've gone with that.

<Noclip>But G doesn't put me at the buttom.

<nckx>brettgilio: When you join we see ‘brettgilio (~brettgili@ip.ad.dr.es) has joined’ (and before you go running for a cloak — that doesn't hide it). kdig -x that and I get ns1.digitalocean.com.

<brettgilio>hahaha im not worried :)

<brettgilio>but no it doesnt offer one

<nckx>No, I don't have a habit of creeping like that, but since you explicitly mentioned your new server I thought it'd be OK.

<Noclip>Am I the only vim user in the guix universe?

<brettgilio>Noclip: The one and only

<nckx>Noclip: I see what you mean. It takes me to the top of the last page, so ‘almost’ the bottom. Weird.

<nckx>Noclip: There are others but don't expect to be in the majority here. There might be more evil-mode users than actual vim users.

<nckx>But certainly you're not alone.

<brettgilio>liar, yes they are

<Noclip>:)

<brettgilio>Noclip: I have to ask, and it doesnt really matter much, given that Emacs is literally a lisp environment why stick with Vim?

<brettgilio>I dont want to start a flamewar

<brettgilio>Im just curious

<nckx>Again with the religion!

<brettgilio>nckx: I used Vim for 5 years, I am the master of religions.

<Noclip>... and the cult on the other side xD

<Noclip>brettgilio: Do you use evil-mode?

<brettgilio>Noclip: I don't. Once I switched to emacs I decided I was going to give it a go just as it was

<nckx>No, nano is the cult. But they're a friendly harmless cult and they make these weird-tasting brownies that make you happy so it'll all good.

<nckx>brettgilio: What made you convert?

*vagrantc has been using emacs for ~6 years now, and vim for 12 before that ... and never really thought to try evil-mode

<brettgilio>nckx, honestly?

<Noclip>nano cult wtf xD

*vagrantc wonders

<brettgilio>The richard stallman St iGNUcious videos lel

*vagrantc winces

<nckx>I also deliberately switched to ‘vanilla’ emacs.

<nckx>brettgilio: …wow.

<vagrantc>i switched to emacs for notmuch :)

<brettgilio>That, combined with a peaking curiousity of lisp and functional programming was all it took

<Noclip>So you all used vim in your past?

<brettgilio>vagrantc: You not using gnus?

<brettgilio>Noclip: Most of us yeah

<blackbeard[m]>nckx: you don't use helm or stuff like that?

<vagrantc>brettgilio: no, i wanted to use notmuch :P

<brettgilio>gnus is love, gnus is life

<mroh>yeah ;)

<vagrantc>and emacs had the best interface at the time

<vagrantc>nckx: wow. i also use vanilla emacs. I didn't know there was anyone else.

<nckx>blackbeard[m]: No. But I use other packages. I didn't mean vanilla in that sense, but that I don't take the build-my-own-editor approach (or use pre-existing total-conversion mods like spacemacs). I use emacs, so I use emacs key bindings. I rebound my control key for emacs, of course, I'm not mad.

<nckx>I use 3 or 4 packages which is vanilla by emacs standards.

<brettgilio>My emacs config is a fork of rekado 's guile-studio. I liked the idea of guix building and managing my emacs config and so I went with that

<vagrantc>usually when i tell emacs people that i try to keep my .emacs file to basically defaults, their eyes get wide like anime characters

<brettgilio> https://git.sr.ht/~brettgilio/cfg-emacs

<nckx>Oh, I use 3: yasnippet mu4e guix.

<brettgilio>I love the emacs guix interface

<nckx>All 3 add features but don't change emacs's behaviour → vanilla.

<brettgilio>Is it still maintained?

<blackbeard[m]>nckx: I see :) I am used to helm but I've been getting rid of it

<blackbeard[m]>I do customize my Emacs with a few functions I wrote to save time though

<nckx>vagrantc: My .emacs is basically mu4e.conf, little more.

<vagrantc>nckx: likewise, basically notmuch stuff here.

<blackbeard[m]>I want to use emacs as vanilla as possible

<brettgilio>my dad is a programmer of many years, and still looks at me funny when I open emacs cus its "weirder than netbeans"

<brettgilio>lel

<brettgilio>idek with that guy

<Noclip>brettgilio: I actually tried emacs first (~ a year ago for a few weeks) and then also decided to give vim a try and directly liked it so much that I didn't go back to emacs.

<nckx>blackbeard[m]: Maybe I'm wrong here, maybe I *should* use helm. I'm certainly not advocating sticking with the defaults, I just like being able to use emacs without saying ‘oh wait, let me scp my 200-KiB .emacs to this machine so I can open a file without using the mouse’. I don't like that.

<nckx>But I'd probably be fitter/happier/more productive with a few more packages.

<nckx>Noclip: Use what you love. I didn't expect to like emacs, I was surprised I did.

<brettgilio>nckx: Re: what I said about grokking rekado's guile-studio and replacing the internals with your own emacs config so it can be portable anywhere where guix is :)

<nckx>What's the well-known alternative to helm? It was mentioned at the Guix Days perfect set-up session. It's on my to-try list, so not awkward at all that I can't remember the name.

<brettgilio>ivy

<nckx>That's the one.

<nckx>I should try that.

<brettgilio>you should also try not being a nerd

*brettgilio pwnd

<brettgilio>:)

<nckx>Scuttled once more by your rapier-like wit.

<brettgilio>tf is zcoin and why is it the most popular freenode channel rn?

<nckx>☝ 2016-level clickbait is clickbait.

<Noclip>I think zcoin a alternative crypto-currency to Monero.

<nckx>But does it use Guix like the real Bitcoin?

<brettgilio>??? bitcoin uses guix?

*brettgilio feels he is being trolled

<Noclip>I think they are implementing some sort of better concept for making transactions anonymous.

<nckx> https://explorer.zcoin.io/blocks → ‘Mined by’ → much decentralised, very rubust.

<bandali>brettgilio, https://invidio.us/watch?v=I2iShmUTEl8

<nckx>brettgilio: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/guix-makes-bitcoin-core-development-trustless

<nckx>bandali: That's the video I was actually looking for!

<bandali>nckx, beat ya to it ;-)

<bandali>go Gnus (search) go ;-)

<nckx>It is utterly excellent, in general, even for no-coiners.

<nckx>brettgilio: I think it's mainly one Bitcoin dev, carldong, who's enthusiastic about using Guix to provide more (or is it less?) trusted builds.

<nckx>And who has put a lot of work where their mouth is, by the way.

<hendursaga>I'm trying to build a package from a definition I'm writing and it won't build using QEMU on any other system. I'm not sure what I'm missing. I'm following "Submitting Patches" from the manual. https://paste.debian.net/hidden/d823a19a/

<blackbeard[m]>nckx: That's nice

<blackbeard[m]>hendursaga: can you share your package definition?

<Noclip>Now imagine the nsa had somehow put a malicious backdoor in one of the most used compilers at some point ...

<mroh>very nice presentation/talk/video! ty for sharing, bandali!

<nckx>hendursaga: Do you have (service qemu-binfmt-service-type (qemu-binfmt-configuration (guix-support? #t) (platforms (lookup-qemu-platforms "aarch64" "arm" […])))) in your system configuration?

<bandali>mroh, cheers :-) it's by dongcarl (i believe that's their nick here when they're around)

<nckx>Yes.

<nckx>hendursaga: I'm guessing that /gnu/store/lgk876wh2bxxglplbwyymkx3sqzcbnk9-guile-3.0.2/bin/guile actually exists, but won't run, correct?

<hendursaga>nckx: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/4f1c445c/

<brettgilio>nckx: btw.. mbakke, we still need to patch cmake to fix https://issues.guix.gnu.org/42448

<brettgilio>I'll give it a look soon

<nckx>brettgilio: Oh, is that what this is?

*nckx reads.

<nckx>OK, that is something else (and you didn't claim otherwise of course).

<nckx>hendursaga: But do you have qemu-binfmt set up as above?

<hendursaga>nckx: And yes, I've added that bit of code to my OS definition.

<nckx>OK, I'll build it here.

<hendursaga>And qemu-binfmt is running presently, too

<hendursaga>nckx: Also that guile binary runs both with and without pre-inst-env, although it complains of not having readline

<nckx>Meanwhile, the xstow package you pasted above is happily building for armhf-linux on my x86_64 laptop… :-/

<brettgilio>Alright. I'm off to pick up some cookies. Peace

<nckx>The exact same derivation (/gnu/store/0d7bca6q9y6284yxc51cnpc3a2br3kmw-xstow-1.0.2.drv).

<nckx>bandali: See ☝ brett's getting the cookies.

<nckx>brettgilio: o/

<bandali>brettgilio, peace o/

<brettgilio>nckx: my wife is demanding cookies hahah

<bandali>nckx, lol; do we have veggies too? i'm no a diet

*brettgilio also wants cookies

<hendursaga>nckx: That doesn't sound good. How discouraged is it that I submit patches without testing it on other platforms like that?

*brettgilio is also fat and shouldn't have cookies

<brettgilio>hendursaga: patch review gets tested by others (hypothetically)

<brettgilio>So send what you have and roll it as WIP or something

<brettgilio>And just explain that it needs testing

<Noclip>brettgilio: Before trying both (vim and emacs) I thought the emacs key bindings had to be superior because you don't have to switch between modes all the time but I soon noticed that you often have to dislocate your fingers to press a key combination. I also read about Emacs pinky at that time. However when I tried vim I just rebound "jk" and "kj" to the Esc key and noticed that with this nothing can be done faster than

<Noclip>switching between vim modes. Also using vim keys feels much better and I don't have to dislocate my fingers at all.

<nckx>hendursaga: It built successfully by the way: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1157812

<nckx>So it's actually ‘good’ news: your system needs work but the package is good.

<brettgilio>Noclip: emacs pinky is just a badge of honor. Don't worry

<nckx>Honestly, I suspect >90% of the packages are submitted without multi-arch testing. Mind you, it's great that you do, and please don't stop (once you fix your qemu), but it's OK to submit as-is.

<nckx>hendursaga: ☝

<brettgilio>I try to multi-arch test, but half the time when I do the CI gets a different result anyways lol

<brettgilio>Yay reproducibility

<hendursaga>brettgilio: So like [PATCH, WIP] Add XStow ?

<nckx>Even without the WIP.

<brettgilio>^

<nckx>Just note in your message body that you'd like the reviewer to test it on ARM.

<nckx>But I just did, and it at least builds.

<Noclip>brettgilio: Maybe, but according to my experience as a result of frequent finger dislocating using vi keys seems to be faster and more efficient even if you always have to switch between modes.

<nckx>And prints an emulated --help message.

<brettgilio>Noclip: Hahaha :)

<brettgilio>Okay cookie time. Bye

<brettgilio>bandali: you want one?

<Noclip>Bye

<bandali>brettgilio, sure i'll take one this time, thanks :-p

*nckx wants one too but lives in GDPR country.

<brettgilio>bandali: oof. You use exwm. Sorry mate. :)

<bandali>brettgilio, it's like that? alright bro, i got you bro :-p

<bandali>nckx, too bad ;-)

<brettgilio>nckx: gdpr better stand for Great Democratic People's Republic o7

<brettgilio>s/Great/Glorious

<nckx> https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/belgium-continues-to-be-without-government-since-may/1572831

<nckx>o7

<brettgilio>Avanti popolo!

<brettgilio>Haha

<Noclip>nckx: So you're also working at night?

<nckx>Yeah, but I was just thinking I should really go to bed.

<brettgilio>nckx: just one more patch

<brettgilio>When I get tired I just send confusing emails to Pierre niedthart

<nckx>hendursaga: By the way, please consider posting your https://paste.debian.net/hidden/d823a19a/ (I assume it's not only xstow that's affected, but in-Guix packages too?) to either help-guix or bug-guix at gnu.org. This shouldn't happen.

<brettgilio>Are they on irc?

<nckx>brettgilio: Hardly if ever.

<nckx>brettgilio: You talk often? What are they working on now?

<hendursaga>nckx: Incorrect; hello builds perfectly.

<brettgilio>nckx: nope. But whenever I'm slogging through debbugs and I come across their reports at 4am I think I just confuse them more than I help.

<nckx>Humph.

<nckx>hendursaga: Well, I copied your xstow exactly (minus the 2 stray pipes in you paste) and it still built. Best include it in the report if you send one.

<nckx>4am is the best am.

<brettgilio>nckx: oh is mercury still behaving funny for you?

<blackbeard[m]>hendursaga: did you reconfigure guix?

<brettgilio>I had 5 people try it, it passed for them. I didn't check if the hash was the same tho

<blackbeard[m]>nckx: you must be pretty tired :/

<nckx>brettgilio: I'm not sure what my last answer was, but it built fine on my laptop. The failure was on a server with slow storage and (relatively) fast CPU.

<hendursaga>blackbeard[m]: Yes, I do that every day and this has been going on for a few days.

<nckx>So don't worry about it, don't hold the patch for my sake. If there is a timing bug it's not easily triggered and we can fix it later.

<brettgilio>nckx: I'm still waiting for the CI to process it. So we will see what it says too

<nckx>Ah, it's merged, never mind.

<brettgilio>Yeh :) sorry

<nckx>No, good.

<nckx>blackbeard[m]: Heh, guess what, I was back in hospital yesterday 😉

<nckx>I broke my leg ♪

<brettgilio>The recipe still needs work, but it's a good base line right now I think

<blackbeard[m]>nckx: aw :(

<blackbeard[m]>Will it be better?

<nckx>So my rhythm is all messed up. I'm wide-awake, but I feel obligated to go to bed because I probably should.

<nckx>blackbeard[m]: Sure.

<nckx>Just thought it was funny since you often ask about my health.

<nckx>hendursaga: Just to be sure: you're certain that hello actually built on your machine and wasn't substituted as an armhf binary?

<hendursaga>nckx: I ran the exact command from the manual: guix build --system=armhf-linux --rounds=2 hello

<nckx>What about guix build --system=armhf-linux --rounds=2 --check hello ?

<nckx>(The command from the manual returns immediately here, since I already had an armhf hello.)

<brettgilio>Had to walk through a protest to get to the cookie store. Was worth it.

<dftxbs3e>janneke, thank you about racket, it's finally getting there understanding code vs data modes

<brettgilio>bandali: the lengths I go to to acquire your cookies

<bandali>brettgilio, much appreciated!

<hendursaga>nckx: I'll try when I next can. Time to get some sleep.

<dftxbs3e>nckx, hey! don't you think it would be helpful to have this for GNU Guix? https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty

<dftxbs3e>It's really great! It allows one to easily browse mailing lists without having to deal with the pain of their email providers thinking subscribing to lists are spam, and also, it has an account system and allows to reply to things through the web interface

<dftxbs3e>Main thing is, it's compatible with email-based workflows, and friendly to users who don't want to deal with email or lists and just want a forum-like experience

<KE0VVT>I use mailing lists because I DON'T want a web interface, dftxbs3e.

<KE0VVT>I want a program that provides an email mailing list interface to popular forum software.

<dftxbs3e>KE0VVT, you still can, but I want interfaces, mailing lists are plain annoying and bad UX for a lot of it

<dftxbs3e>(for me)

<KE0VVT>I like mailing lists because I don't have to log in and I can do it offline.

<dftxbs3e>Basically my email provider classifies GNU GUix's mailing list as spam

<brettgilio>KE0VVT: rt

<KE0VVT>brettgilio: ?

<KE0VVT>brettgilio: What does 'rt' mean?

<dftxbs3e>I can't find a use case myself today where I don't have network access, so not archiving the data for offline use myself is fine for me

<brettgilio>KE0VVT: retweet. Hipster lingo for "I agree"

<dftxbs3e>s/myself is fine//g

<dftxbs3e>s/myself is fine/is fine/g

<KE0VVT>dftxbs3e: When I am on the road outside the city, there is no Wi-Fi.

<KE0VVT>Offline computing is important to me.

<nckx>dftxbs3e: I think it would be. Did you know that (python-)hyperkitty was added to Guix days ago?

<dftxbs3e>KE0VVT, I understand, there's no denying to that use case, hyperkitty is just an addon!

<dftxbs3e>nckx, oh really?!

<nckx>Chillax, hyperkitty is just an mbox front-end.

<nckx>dftxbs3e: TBH I think I kind of goaded efraim into merging it 😃 I don't know if it's entirely production-ready, but it should be close.

<dftxbs3e>nckx, Fedora uses it!

<dftxbs3e>nckx, https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/

<nckx>Here's their own demo: https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/

<nckx>Ah.

<dftxbs3e>I just interacted with it because I needed to do with their mailing lists and it was such a pleasing experience

<nckx>Interesting that they're slightly different.

<KE0VVT>dftxbs3e: Hyperkitty sounds like a good solution to get new people onto mailing lists.

<nckx>I mean, the pro-mailing list crowd (to which I belong) should welcome this. It allows sticking with mail instead of moving to Discourse (bleh) to attrackt the youthes! /s, but seriously.

<dftxbs3e>KE0VVT, Yes, it's much friendlier than having to subscribe, or think that your message to the mailing list will get rejected if you don't subscribe first, or forgetting to 'Reply-All' - all this friction is just bad and unnecessary when all people want to do is ask a question or help.

<KE0VVT>nckx: Yes. I didn't understand that before. Thanks.

<nckx>As long as we can disable the HTML editor (if there is one) I'm happy 😉

<dftxbs3e>I don't see why it wouldnt be possible - also hyperkitty serves as a better subscription manager it seems

<dftxbs3e>Oh no, it's another one: https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/postorius/en/latest/

<nckx>dftxbs3e: Do you know whether using HK, at least as a read-only archive UI for now, requires switching to Mailman 3? I hope not. I'd expect it to just slurp mboxes. But I don't know.

<dftxbs3e>nckx, I can look for this, but what's the issue with going for mailman 3?

<nckx>I suspect that sending mail from HK would require MM3.

<nckx>dftxbs3e: That we don't run our own lists, the FSF does, and I don't think self-hosting them would be a great use of our already over-extended resources.

<nckx>To put it diplomatically.

<nckx>The FSF uses MM2: https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-guix (scroll to bottom)

<nckx>And it's the FSF; they won't upgrad tomorrow.

<dftxbs3e>Well, maybe there has to be an FSF-wide migration, because hyperkitty and posterius would really benefit everyone

<nckx>Sure, OK, that's a… much bigger discussion. 🙂

<nckx>And it would be the FSF hosting HK at that point, not us.

<dftxbs3e>yes

<Noclip>@nefix: "how are vim / neovim plugins managed?"

<Noclip>I'm really not the only vim / neovim user here :D

<dftxbs3e>nckx, https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/hyperkitty/en/latest/install.html#importing-the-current-archives

<nckx>The FSF hosts a looot of mail https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/. Anyway, I was thinking more about an experimental self-hosted front-end, like issues.guix. It didn't replace debbugs.gnu.org.

<nckx>dftxbs3e: Read that, thanks.

<nckx>‘If the previous archives aren’t available locally, you need to download them from your current Mailman 2.1 installation. The file is not web-accessible.’

<nckx>dftxbs3e: Mumi (issues.guix) works by downloading the mbox files from debbugs. A Guix-run HyperKitty (=running on berlin, not FSF's mail server) would need continuous access to the FSF mailing list archives to.

<nckx>-to.

<nckx>As I read them the docs assume you're ‘migrating’ once, not ‘drip feeding’.

<nckx>But I'm also pretty sleepy.

<dftxbs3e>It indeed looks like it

<PotentialUser-23>I've been having issues with Grub on BIOS boot.

<PotentialUser-23>I'm trying to re-install it using the shell from the installation usb

<PotentialUser-23>However when I chroot into my Guix installation's root I can't run any commands.

<PotentialUser-23>Any ideas?

<PotentialUser-23>The installation is on a partition encrypted with LUKS

<PotentialUser-23>Actually, is Guix capable of booting with an encrypted /boot directory?

<vagrantc>not as a separate partition

<vagrantc>but if /boot is on an encrypted / partition, it works...

<vagrantc>or ... should work

<vagrantc>though ... that might require the older luks format ... as grub doesn't yet support newer luks format (though would be happy to find out it does now!)

<PotentialUser-23>I tried installing with my entire system in a single LUKS-encrypted partition

<PotentialUser-23>So /boot is within that partition

<vagrantc>PotentialUser-23: chrooting into guix ... is tricky to set PATH correctly...

<vagrantc>PotentialUser-23: though, what are the issues you're having?

<PotentialUser-23>I can't get the OS to boot

<PotentialUser-23>When I select Guix from my BIOS menu it just flashes black for less than half a second and returns to the same menu

<PotentialUser-23>I selected to boot from the disk itself, and it brings up GRUB rescue complaining about failing to cryptomount

<PotentialUser-23>When I tried to cryptomount manually, no matter which partition I fed it, it never prompted me for a password

<PotentialUser-23>(The only feedback I actually got from the cryptomount command was that it was unable to access sector 0x0 on (cd), which makes sense because nothing is inserted into that drive.)

<Noclip>How can I test if I'm at the current upstream comment without pulling it in with "guix pull"?

<vagrantc>guix describe

<vagrantc>will tell you the hash

<vagrantc>er, the commit hash

<vagrantc>and then you can compare against the git repository...

<Noclip>How do I use the nix importer? Does nix has to be installed for that or do I just need a local copy of the nix repo (the nix package definitions)?

<bhartrihari>Hello, how can I list the installed packages for a user sorted by their storage size in /gnu/store/?

<Noclip>Looks like nix has to be installed as the nix importer seems to use the nix-instantiate command. Doesn't that make the importer basically useless?

<mroh>bhartrihari: maybe something like this as a startpoint: `guix size $(guix package -I|awk '{print $1}') |sort -k2 -n -r`

<bhartrihari>Thanks mroh.

<PurpleSym>Trying to package foliate, but it throws an error after starting: (com.github.johnfactotum.Foliate:34071): Gjs-WARNING **: 09:02:23.618: JS ERROR: Error: GSettings schema com.github.johnfactotum.Foliate not found

<PurpleSym>Any ideas?

<kekoso>Hi, the same problem persists: on latest 9660 during installation, when I get to the partitioning of the disk, for example, when I try to edit any disk, an unhandle ntfs error pops up. On the stable version, it crashes, on the new version, an error pops up. Maybe I can't edit disks in guix or am I doing something wrong? two disks ssd samsung, hdd w

<kekoso>d, I edit hdd, on which there are two partitions, the second partition is external. thanks

<sneek>Welcome back kekoso, you have 1 message!

<sneek>kekoso, nckx says: I hope all goes well but if it still fails, please send a bug report to bug-guix at gnu.org (and mention the USB drive). TIA!

<kekoso>i had to submit a bug report and not ask, for some reason i didn't think about it, sorry

<Kimapr_on_phone>Yet another filesystem break

<Kimapr_on_phone>wow a kernel panic. Caused by me typing ,continue in the repl invoked with wrong filesystem setting at boot

<Kimapr_on_phone>Is there a transactional filesystem?

<Kimapr[m]>I'm tired of filesystem corruptions

<Kimapr[m]>Also: is it possible to have multiple independent, concurrent lines of system generations?

<fps>Kimapr[m]: like a tree instead of a list?

<fps>Kimapr[m]: your system generations do not have to share a common history anyways. they can stem from disjoint configs, etc..

<Kimapr>yeah, but then guix system delete-generations will just delete everything but the current one

<Kimapr>also i don't want alternate branches to be in the "past generations" list in the boot menu

<nefix>hello! how can I import a definition from another file? e.g. I have config.scm, and want to import definitions from defs.scm

<efraim>nefix: you have to add it to the load path, so assuming you're working with guix system, 'guix system build -L /path/to/folder/containing/defs.scm config.scm'

<nefix>efraim: hmmm, and can't it be done in the same file?

<efraim>you also have to add it to the use-modules of the file

<efraim>I'll post a link to my config

<efraim>also, here's a copy of my vimrc, using vim plugins from guix

<efraim> https://dpaste.com/3RD368REY#line-53

<efraim>here's my main machine https://gitlab.com/Efraim/guix-config/-/blob/master/E5400_config.scm I have a couple of files in config/ in the repo

<efraim>so I have 'sudo -E guix system reconfigure -L /path/to/guix-config /path/to/guix-config/E5400_config.scm' to reconfigure

<nefix>efraim: thanks! it's really helpful to see configuration examples. Would you mind helping me with a definition that's not working and I have no clue why? (I'm learning Scheme)

<efraim>sure, I can try

<nefix>efraim: so, right now I have this: https://dpaste.com/HWQ9TCASS

<nefix>but it doesn't work, it complains about a match

<nefix>(I'm using guix-home-manager)

<bdju>currently stuck building gcc. is this a long one?

<efraim>I would try with ("email ... instead of (("email ... , but I haven't looked at home-manager before

<efraim>also if you have ' before (("user you might need to change it to `

<nefix>what's the difference between ' and ` ?

<efraim>bdju: it can take a long time

<nefix>(also, I'm using ttps://framagit.org/tyreunom/guix-home-manager/-/blob/master/home/keepassxc.scm as base)

<efraim>so it looks like you do want (("user ...

<efraim>' can be shorthand for creating a list or an object, ` can be thought of as a toggle between code and ... strings? it's not my strong suit, I'm not always sure how to explain it

<nefix>efraim: so, should I always use ` instead of ' ?

<efraim>` and , often work together, I think of them as ` for 'evaluate now' and , for 'evaluate this and then continue on'

<efraim>not always, but from your paste I'd go with `

<efraim>(name 'git) on line 16 definately needs to be a '

<nefix>so, with 24 and 27 with ` it still throws the 'no matching pattern' error

<efraim>does it tell you on which line or other information?

<nefix>no, that's the thing :/

<efraim>I don't know if you need to specifically add guix-home-manager to the load path

<nefix>efraim: the code is within the home.scm, that is already working

<nefix>(the file used by guix-home-manager)

<efraim>nefix: you need to define what "email" is, the way in keepassxc.scm every config option is defined

<jonsger>I don't understand that. I have mate-service-type installed as well as i3, when I boot into MATE everything is fine. When I switch to i3 icons in most programms (caja, icedove etc.) are missing. How can it break?

<jonsger>ah it works now in i3 after opening mate-control-center, as it seems that it created some cache...

<jonsger>because it does not look for hicolor anymore, instead it search for menta and mate icon-themes...

<efraim>I'm not really sure why git-config-home isn't working now but I can't really spend more time on it now, sorry

<nefix>efraim: no problem, thanks for all the help!

***nefix1 is now known as nefix

<nefix>another question: is there a code formatter for scheme or something like that? To make sure all the .scm files have the same spacing, identation, etc

<Kimapr[m]>i think this? https://github.com/eschulte/lisp-format

<Kimapr[m]>nefix:

<nefix>Kimapr[m]: yep! I guess I need to start learning emacs... :(

<Kimapr>> This script is suitable for (re)formatting lisp code using an external process. This script may be marked as executable and executed directly on the command line as follows.

<Kimapr>> chmod +x lisp-format

<Kimapr>> ./lisp-format -h

<Kimapr>^ from the README.md

<nefix>I guess I could adapt it into my vim workflow...

<Kimapr[m]>looks like it is a bash script that executes itself in emacs

<Kimapr[m]>one thing is that it uses the #!/bin/bash that won't work in guix, so you would either have to execute it in your bash manually or in emacs directly

<nefix>hmmmm

<efraim>do we have an example of running mariadb/mysql as a pre-check phase?

<NieDzejkob>libdbi-drivers kinda does that

<Formbi>Kimapr: or it would be possible to use special-files-service

<NieDzejkob>Is there a way to tell if something is a native input on the build side?

<mbakke>I built ungoogled-chromium with the bundled tcmalloc, and the performance issues are largely solved

<NieDzejkob>hmm, is the version different, or maybe the optimization flags are amiss?

<mbakke>the optimization change also made a huge difference, now it's faster than ever (I think)

*mbakke prepares a patch to remove glibc versions < 2.27

*NieDzejkob waits for another quassel build to check if the qt-build-system changes help with the closure like they should

***jetomit_ is now known as jetomit

<mbakke>12 files changed, 1726 deletions(-)

<mbakke>my favorite kind of diff :P

<efraim>nice

<mbakke>glibc 2.32 is just around the corner, so I'm making room in gnu/packages/base.scm :P

<mbakke>I think we should aim for getting core-updates rolling by the end of next month

<NieDzejkob>is that before or after another round of staging?

<mbakke>I intend to "freeze" staging shortly, so it should be merged around that time

<mbakke>NieDzejkob: if you have any staging patches in the pipeline, now is a good time :)

*mbakke is already using staging

<nefix>how should I add the pluign? it doesn't like something about the syntax :/ https://pastebin.com/FeLGgrCc

<NieDzejkob>I'd hope to sneak in a debug output for qtbase

<efraim>I think I tossed in my patch for rust and parallel cargo-generate-checksums

<NieDzejkob>I'm also working on a qt-build-system patch, but I think that's few enough rebuilds for master? Is there a better way than grepping gnu/packages for qt-build-system?

<NieDzejkob>oh, nice!

<NieDzejkob>efraim: what do you think of #42049? Is that something we'd want to have?

<NieDzejkob>it's written in a way that doesn't cause any rebuilds by itself, but we could also clean it up this staging?

<efraim>I don't like it

<efraim>i want to not need it

<efraim>my preference is to reuse the build artifacts between rust builds

<efraim>but barring that I'd like to at least copy the source into %out to use for the next build, allowing us to actually use the real inputs like every other package in guix

<NieDzejkob>that's actually how it was before cargo-inputs was introduced

<NieDzejkob>the issue with that is you get quadratic builds

<NieDzejkob>how would you handle crate features with reused artifacts?

<mbakke>somewhat related: should we make rust 1.45 the default?

<efraim>mbakke: if it works, then sure

<efraim>works being the actual end result rust packages build, which I assume they would

<mbakke>any brave hackers up for the challenge?

*mbakke already has an uncomfortable amount of patches on staging

<efraim>I can build out to it and see how it goes, should just be tedius

<mbakke>\o/

<mbakke>I think there are substitutes for 1.45, so only the crates need building

<efraim>oh, then that shouldn't be bad

<efraim>I was going to try it out on bayfront but if berlin has substitutes already that's better

<mbakke>they likely need to be "baked" first though

<NieDzejkob>mbakke: there's a rust 1.45.1 scheduled this week

*mbakke runs guix weather

<mbakke>NieDzejkob: oh, I think we can make an exception for that, i.e. allow it even if the branch is frozen

<mbakke>it will take weeks for armhf and aarch64 to build everything anyway

<NieDzejkob>OK. Do we want to bump rust to 1.45 first? I feel like that's going to result in a useless rebuild

<mbakke>NieDzejkob: good question, no strong opinion either way

<mbakke>staging is known for useless rebuilds :-)

<mbakke>it makes sense to wait

<hendursaga>I see my patch finally got through, lol

*civodul looks into merging wip-i18n (for the web site)

<jonsger>nice :)

<civodul>long overdue!

<civodul>let's hope it all works as expected :-)

<civodul>preview available at https://guix.gnu.org/.i18n/de/

<NieDzejkob>huh, all the manpages in binutils except for as, gprof and ld are empty

<jonsger>schaut gut aus :)

<civodul>sehr gut :-)

<civodul>(that's about all i know in German ;-))

<civodul>NieDzejkob: oh, missing help2man or something?

<Formbi>hello

<hendursaga>What's the difference between gpl2 and gpl2+? The latter has the "or later" clause?

<NieDzejkob>yeah

<hendursaga>So this license is gpl2, not gpl2+? https://sourceforge.net/p/isync/isync/ci/master/tree/COPYING

<civodul>hendursaga: see paragraph 9 of the license: you have to look at header files to determine whether "any later versions" are explicitly disallowed

<civodul>if they're not disallowed, then it's gpl2+

<Formbi>I'm trying to package something and I get «(value "Unbound variable: ~S") (value (rust-serde-1.0))» even though I have (gnu packages crates-io) imported

<Formbi>what the heck?

<NieDzejkob>Formbi: the variable is called rust-serde-1

<NieDzejkob>... as of, uh, this morning?

<Formbi>in guix edit serde it says 1.0

<Formbi>strange

<NieDzejkob>run guix pull or ./pre-inst-env guix edit

<NieDzejkob>civodul: actually, missing perl. I wonder how the cycle will look when I'll try adding the dep :D

<ngz>Hello. I cannot authenticate the Guix checkout due to 30aa5dd7e7. Is it a known problem, is there a workaround?

<Noclip>Why are all available versions of ghc in the repo very old and far behind the current upstream?

<ngz>Noclip: IIRC, it uses Stackage, so LTS releases.

<NieDzejkob>ngz: try 'git fetch upstream keyring:keyring'

<NieDzejkob>(or s/upstream/origin/)

<nckx>Guten Morgen Guix.

<ngz>NieDzejkob: It worked. Thank you. How did that happen?

<hendursaga>nckx: I think the QEMU issue is a permissions problem, actually; I'm not sure, but it could be it can't read/execute the binaries.

<nckx>hendursaga: Are your guixbuilderNN users in the kvm group? (grep kvm /etc/group)

<nckx>I assume your /tmp isn't mounted noexec or anything weird like that, you would have had problems sooner.

<hendursaga>nckx: 01 to 10, yes

<hendursaga>nckx: It can't read/execute /gnu/store/lgk876wh2bxxglplbwyymkx3sqzcbnk9-guile-3.0.2/bin/guile, though my normal user can

<Noclip>Willkommen zurück nckx.

<nckx>hendursaga: Did the build command with --check successfully build a working armhf hello on your machine?

<civodul>still a lot of contention on /var/guix/db/db.sqlite-shm on berlin

<hendursaga>nckx: Which one again?

<hendursaga>nckx: Never mind, found it. And same issue, too.

<nckx>hendursaga: guix build --system=armhf-linux --check hello (no need for --rounds but it can't hurt).

<NieDzejkob>ngz: a key got added to the keyring, so you have to repoint your local keyring branch

<nckx>hendursaga: OK, I think y'day you said that building hello worked, correct? If so, I assume you were simply downloading a substitute.

<nckx>At least it makes the bug less weird and xstow-on-your-machine-specific.

<hendursaga>nckx: It did, at least. With --check it outputs same error.

<nckx>I think without --check it wasn't building but just downloading.

<hendursaga>Yeah, makes sense

<hendursaga>So what user/group does it change to when running such a command?

<nckx>I think guixbuildXX. This error happens in the exNix daemon. For others' reference, here's the error: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/d823a19a/ .

<nckx>*guixbuilderXX

<hendursaga>nckx: I think I'm figuring out what might be the issue. I killed the sudo -E ./pre-inst-env guix-daemon --build-users-group=guixbuild command and restarted the guix-daemon service and at least hello is compiling

<nckx>Oh.

<nckx>(TIL I learnt that ldd <foreign binary> doesn't work, which is mildly annoying.)

<NieDzejkob>mbakke: we have another victim :P

<nckx>NieDzejkob: Of?

<NieDzejkob>nckx: #41601

<nckx>hendursaga: Were you running sudo -E ./pre-inst-env … in a guix environment?

<hendursaga>nckx: Aha! No, I was not.

<civodul>sneek: seen reepca

<sneek>reepca was last seen in #guix one day and 9 hours ago, saying: do we have a package that provides a "geckodriver" binary?.

<nckx>hendursaga: Why were you running the daemon that way? It has its uses, but (as above bug report suggests) did you think it was *needed*?

<hendursaga>nckx: As in, guix environment guix --pure ? Hmm. If I do that it complains that I don't have sudo, so no, I didn't.

<nckx>You can hack around that by including sudo after --ad-hoc, or using `which sudo` to ‘unquote’ it 😉 But unless you have a good reason (=you've patched the daemon), you should just use the system's. The daemon changes little and care is taken to make is mostly backwards-compatible.

<nckx>So getting the command to work isn't really the point.

<hendursaga>nckx: OK, I see now. I was taking that from "Running Guix Before It Is Installed" and I guess I forgot to shut it down and use the system one :/

<hendursaga>Yup, everything's running smoothly now. I'm about to submit my 2nd patch :)

<nckx>A satisfying anti-climax.

<civodul>nckx: thoughts on the zrhythm trademark discussion? https://issues.guix.gnu.org/42473

<nckx>civodul: Sigh.

<civodul>:-)

<nckx>I've been thinking that over since it was started here 🙂

<civodul>ah

<nckx>So, I guess, ‘no’. Or ‘too many’.

<civodul>are you ok with having it in Guix under that name?

<nckx>Yes. But is a vote the way to handle this?

<nckx>I've reached out to a legal friend of mine who's vaguely aware what software is (a big win in itself) but haven't heard back.

<civodul>dunno, we asked for maintainer feedback, that's why

***tricon` is now known as tricon

<civodul>i don't think there's anything special legally, we've seen that before with Mozilla

<civodul>looks similar to me

<nckx>I'd like to offer more than a +1 as feedback.

<civodul>alright, makes sense

<nckx>I'm OK with having it in Guix and see no legal issue.

<civodul>well we can wait for your reply in that issue

<civodul>but the only question that matters to us i think is whether to keep it under this name

<hendursaga>Are there any other platforms besides armhf and aarch64 that I should test my patch with or...?

<civodul>otherwise i agree we could discuss quite a lot about trademarks and all :-)

<NieDzejkob>i686 and hurd ;)

<nckx>civodul: I don't want to do that, don't worry 🙂

<civodul>:-)

<hendursaga>Is it strictly necessary? I haven't messed with Hurd before.

<nckx>hendursaga: No, it's not.

<blackbeard[m]>nckx: in my opinion guix could keep the name, I mean there is written permission by the author signed with the key that signs software

<nckx>I love your attitude but don't get bogged down installing a Hurd VM at this point. Testing ARM is already much appreciated. Ideally, *we'd* offer that service for each submitted patch. That's what CI meant, once 🙂

<nckx>hendursaga: ☝

<nckx>blackbeard[m]: I don't think anyone's denying that Guix *can* use the name. That's not a matter of opinion anyway. They'd be wrong.

<nckx>I haven't seen the ‘reasonable distro integration changes’ permission written out though, it's not at https://www.zrythm.org/en/trademarks.html.

<nckx>Only in our ML.

<nckx>Meh, I'm too busy to discuss this now, sorry 🙂

<blackbeard[m]>Ah but guix needs the users to be able to use the name too right🤔

<blackbeard[m]>Because of the FSF guidelines

<blackbeard[m]>nckx: fair enough :)

<nefix>hello again! I'm trying to write an overlay for bitlbee, but I can't make it work :/ https://pastebin.com/hc3wG7tu <- this is the code that I have right now

<nefix>and I get this error: '(...) In procedure string-append: Wrong type (expecting string): #<procedure version ()>'

<nefix>oh

<NieDzejkob>you can use (package-version bitlbee) instead

<nckx>nefix: Use (package-version bitlbee)

<nefix>hehe, thanks :D

<nefix>how cound I get another value from bitlbee though?

<nckx>Try NieDzejkob's suggestion first, mine if that doesn't work.

<nefix>I need to also add a dependency

<NieDzejkob>(this happens because your inherited package doesn't have the version field "in scope", because you haven't defined any, so you're falling back to some procedure outside of the package definition)

<nckx>nefix: These are generic things, you can use e.g. (package-inputs bitlbee) for each package record.

<NieDzejkob>nefix: you commonly see something like (inputs `(("foo" ,foo) ,@(package-inputs bitlbee)))

<nefix>I see

<nefix>and could I have those definitions in a external file outside? I asked the same yesterday but I couldn't make it work :/

<NieDzejkob>yeah, it should work. What difficulties did you encounter?

<nefix>I can't remember exactly xD

<NieDzejkob>okay, then let us know when you're having the problem again

<nefix>so, for example I have this overlay in a file called 'messaging.scm', how can I import it

<NieDzejkob>hmm, I'm somewhat confused as to what you want to achieve as I've never used Nix :P

<nefix>it's like having the code in two files: in 'config.scm' I have all the things, but I also have 'overlays.scm' and there's the definition there. So I can "import" 'overlays.scm' inside 'config.scm' and use the values defined there

<NieDzejkob> http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2020-07-26.log#102906

<nefix>NieDzejkob: thanks! And can this path be always loaded?

<NieDzejkob>nefix: like, for commands like 'guix show'?

<nefix>for everything. I'd like to have my repo with my modules and that stuff

<nefix>I don't know if it's possible

<NieDzejkob>I think you want to create a channel

<NieDzejkob>(you can use one with a file:/// url)

<nefix>I see

<nefix>Is there an example of a really simple channel?

<NieDzejkob>nefix: create a git repo, say ~/my-channel, and put the file in ~/my-channel/nefix/packages/bitlbee.scm. Add (define-module (nefix packages bitlbee)) to the top of the file. You may also need some #:use-modules parameters. Add a channel with file:///home/nefix/my-channel as the URL to ~/.config/guix/channels.scm, run guix pull. You may now import your file as (nefix packages bitlbee)

<nefix>:0000 thanks!!

<roptat>arg my phone froze while I was using it, and the screen is off now...

<roptat>I can reboot it by pressing the power button for some time, I see the bootloader's screen, but then a black screen before android loads

<nefix>ugh, are you using a custom rom?

<roptat>yeah, but I never had an issue with it before, and I haven't done any update lately

<Noclip>nckx: Does the nix importer require nix to be installed on the system?

<efraim>I believe it needs a local nix checkout but it hasn't been tested in forever

<Noclip>It seems to need the command "nix-instantiate" which comes as part of nix. Unfortunately the nix importer seems pretty much useless if you have to install nix anyways ...

<NieDzejkob>Noclip: why does that mean it's useless? one person imports the package with nix installed, submits it for submission in Guix, other people don't need nix to use the package?

<Noclip>NieDzejkob: Ok, maybe not completely useless but it would be much more interesting if it could directly connect to the nix pkgs online git repo or would only require a local copy of that repo but not the entire nix package manager to be installed.

<nckx>Noclip: I believe so. I've never used it myself.

<nefix>how am I supposed to add the telegram-purple plugin to pidgin? It searches it under ~/.purple/plugins, but it's not there

<nefix>should I symlink it to /gnu/store/telegram-purple/lib ?

<nckx>nefix: That will break when it's (or any dependency is updated). Install it into your profile.

<nefix>profile?

<nckx>Then link ~/.purple/plugins/foo → ~/.guix-profile/lib/…foo.

<nefix>I see

<nefix>thanks

<nckx>nefix: You know, the place where everything you install is kept. ~/.guix-profile by default.

<nefix>I see

<Noclip>Can icecat be configured to work basically the same way as firefox does? (I never used icecat but firefox durring my entire life.)

<NieDzejkob>yeah

<NieDzejkob>disable the extensions and you're almost there

<Noclip>Can it pull extensions from mozilla?

<nefix>oh, I didn't had the GUIX_PROFILE env var set correctly, mb

<NieDzejkob>Noclip: yeah, you just need to navigate to addons.mozilla.org manually

<NieDzejkob>if you want Firefox Sync, you need to flip two switches in about:config -> https://www.reddit.com/r/GUIX/comments/eqn3ey/making_firefox_sync_work_on_icecat/

<NieDzejkob>there's also extensions.screenshots.disabled for the "Take a Screenshot" feature

<Noclip>I actually don't use firefox sync.

<nckx>Is there a fix for the IceCat media sources bug yet?

<ryanprior>My GUADEC talk, Packaging GTK Apps in Guix, is today @ 2pm US Central time, 3pm Eastern time, on track 2: https://meet.gnome.org/b/gua-ioj-c3s

<Noclip>Is that a security or just a harmless bug?

<ryanprior>It's a hands-on workshop where we'll read some Guix package definitions and create a new one. If you've been thinking about Guix packaging and want to get started, come join us!

<civodul>ryanprior: nice!

<civodul>talk + hands-on, neat

<nckx>Noclip: Talking to me? Just a bug: http://issues.guix.info/issue/37244.

<nckx>It makes every video sound like it's being narrated by our lord Satan himself.

<nckx>Great fun.

<Noclip>😂

<efraim>That's in about 90 minutes?

<alextee[m]>ryanprior: nice!

<ryanprior>Yes correct efraim :)

<Noclip>This really irritates me: "WARNING: IceCat 68 has not yet been released by the upstream IceCat project. This is a preview release, and does not currently meet the privacy-respecting standards of the IceCat project."

<Noclip>Should I be afraid of icecat?

<nckx>No.

<Noclip>I mean privacy/security issues in a browser, that doesn't sound funny!

<Noclip>😅

<vagrantc>icecat audits firefox to remove features built-in to firefox that are arguably privacy issues

<vagrantc>basically, it's just saying that they haven't done as thorough of an audit

<nckx>Noclip: It doesn't mention security? Nor does ‘privacy issues’. It means there's a little tweak somewhere that the previous icecat version had disabled, and that they can't currently get to work with this ‘preview’, or whatever. So for example, perhaps it ‘leaks’ your IP address (😮) if you WebRTC your aunt on a Tuesday. Or something. Nothing serious.

<nckx>If you want in-depth details about this ask #icecat, they'll know more.

<nckx>Compared to literally any other browser it's privacy bliss.

<nckx>(Well, non-Tor anyway.)

<civodul>hey ho! the i18n'd web site is now live! https://guix.gnu.org/

<civodul>please report any issues you may find, in particular broken links!

<Noclip>The recommended way of installing tor would be by downloading from the torproject website, right?

<Noclip>civodul: Awesome! German language support has been added, or did it just not show up before?

<vagrantc>civodul: the language-switching drop-down assumes you know what the current language describes itself ...

<vagrantc>e.g. not immediately obvious to someone who doesn't know german to click on "deutsch" to switch language

<civodul>ah!

<civodul>normally, it defaults to the language configured in your browser, or to your browser's locale

<civodul>though i haven't tried

<vagrantc>sure

<civodul>i think we can send suggestions in the megathread at https://issues.guix.gnu.org/26302

<vagrantc>and it worked for me

<brettgilio>Good afternoon, Guix! o7

<nckx>civodul: The translation work is impressive. I look forward to slash am intimidated by the Dutch version.

<Noclip>civodul: Not a real issue but maybe putting a link to "https://hpc.guix.info/browse" at "https://guix.gnu.org/packages/" or even integrating their code might be a good idea.

<nckx>o/ brettgilio.

<brettgilio>nckx: did you get any sleep.

<nckx>Multiple hours of the stuff.

<civodul>nckx: i look forward to the Dutch version too :-)

<civodul>roptat: did you see that? :-) ↑

*brettgilio wonders if the CI processed mercury yet

*brettgilio has 600 emails

<nefix>roptat: pulseaudio seems to not be working even with the $HOME hack :/

<Noclip>Does guix support .desktop files? (1. only guix package manager; 2. guix system)

<civodul>oops https://guix.gnu.org/manual/en/ is 404

<pkill9>what do you mean Noclip?

<pkill9>guix doesn't use .desktop files, other software that it packages does

<pkill9>as long as the guix profile's share directory is in the XDG_DATA_DIRS environment variable, software will find the .desktop files in a guix profile

<brettgilio>Noclip: look at stumpwm for an example of a package that uses desktop file

<Noclip>civodul: All manuals (in all languages) seem to be 404.

<brettgilio>But yeah, pkill9 is right. It depends what you mean.

<nckx>Most graphical packages already provide their own .desktop file though, having to add one like stumpwm's is the exception.

<brettgilio>Noclip: civodul can confirm 404. However, use `info` to get offline manual

<Noclip>By the way: Is "info" pre installed on guix system?

<nckx>Noclip: Yes, by default. It's part of %base-packages.

<Noclip>nice

<brettgilio>It's also available in emacs through M-x info you vim user ;/

<brettgilio>;)

<nckx>I wasn't going to mention that.

<brettgilio>nckx: we both know I was

*brettgilio leaves to eat lunch

<Noclip>brettgilio nckx: I have news xD

<nckx>Welcome to emacs?

<nckx>🙂

<Noclip>Nope.

<nckx>Aw.

<Noclip>This vim plugin adds info support to vim: https://vimawesome.com/plugin/vinfo

<Noclip>(didn't try it yet)

<nckx>Interesting.

<civodul> https://guix.gnu.org/manual/en/guix.pdf works

<civodul>anyone familiar with nginx?

<civodul>looking at https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/maintenance.git/tree/hydra/nginx/berlin.scm#n699 the /guix-videos alias seems to work but not the /manual aliases

<civodul>and there's nothing useful in error.log

<civodul>oh it's going to /srv/guix.gnu.org/en//manual/en/html_node

<civodul>hmm

<Noclip>civodul: I'm prepared, I've downloaded all guix manuals (+cookbooks, ...) even before installing guix. (Didn't know about info at that point.)

<nckx>civodul: Yeah but not libre at the mo' :-/

<alextee[m]>does guix make modifications to the source code of packages internally?

<alextee[m]>patching the shebangs right?

<NieDzejkob>yeah

<Noclip>Can one build arm packages on x86 with guix?

<NieDzejkob>yeah, either with --target=armhf-linux-gnu or --system=armhf-linux

<NieDzejkob>the former is classic cross-compilation, with all the caveats and pain that follow

<NieDzejkob>the latter uses QEMU to emulate the foreign architecture if you set it up in your system config

<NieDzejkob>packages built with --system are considered equivalent by Guix to the ones built natively

<hendursaga>I see Guix has some package definitions translated into Esperanto; I might look into that later.

<civodul>bah, can't figure out what's going on with nginx :-/

<nckx>OK, lemme look.

<nckx> https://guix.gnu.org/manual/ works. What's broken civodul?

***florian1 is now known as pelzflorian

<civodul>nckx: yeah i've just repaired it

<civodul>for a while i tested things with "nginx -s reload -c $PWD/nginx.conf"

<civodul>but actually that doesn't work

<nckx>:D OK.

<civodul>lesson for next time

<nckx>Was it interacting with ~ /manual/(.*)$ ?

<Noclip>😂

<civodul>so the fix is https://paste.debian.net/1157880/

<Noclip>nckx fixed it by just looking at it :DD

<civodul>nckx: yes

<civodul>hey pelzflorian :-)

*civodul goes prepare food now

<pelzflorian>hi i'm so glad all works

<pelzflorian>thank you!!!

<civodul>yeah me too!

<nckx>Yay, called it. Thanks civodul.

<civodul>thank *you*, pelzflorian

<civodul>there was a hiccup with manuals that we were just discussing

<pelzflorian>happy to help :)

<civodul>but it seems to be fine now

<civodul>phew

<civodul>:-)

<Noclip>great work!

<pelzflorian>:)

<roptat>nefix, it does, but you need to restart applications that use it

<nefix>roptat: yep, figured that out later, sorry!

<Noclip>Why is there a sagemath.scm file but no sagemath package? Is it still work in progress?

<Noclip>Also there are many "java-eclipse-..." packages but a pure "java-eclipse" package doesn't exist.

<NieDzejkob>yeah, sagemath is WIP

<nefix>when trying to create my channel, I recieve the following error: '(exception misc-error (value #f) (value "no code for module ~S") (value ((packages vim))) (value #f))'

<nefix>any ideas?

<NieDzejkob>nefix: could you pastebin the relevant files?

<nefix>NieDzejkob: https://gitea.nefixestrada.com/nefix/guix

<Formbi>hello

<Formbi>I'm trying to build Firefox 79 and it says «error: checksum for `arrayref v0.3.5` changed between lock files»

<Formbi>how to fix this?

<NieDzejkob>Formbi: are you basing this on the package definition for icecat?

<NieDzejkob>nefix: when you put (directory "nefix") in your .guix-channel, that means the nefix part won't be included in the module names

<nefix>I see

<efraim>you need to use the generate-cargo-checksums or whatever its called to update the checksums

<NieDzejkob>nefix: how did the first attempt commit break?

<Noclip>Why is it so hard to build firefox on guix? Is firefox in general just hard to build or is guix make the whole thing much more complicated?

<NieDzejkob>large packages like that are finnicky to build in general

<nefix>NieDzejkob: (exception unbound-variable (value #f) (value "Unbound variable: ~S") (value (channel)) (value #f))

<NieDzejkob>why do you think building firefox is hard, though?

<NieDzejkob>nefix: oh, I think that's because you're including .scm files in your channel root that can't get compiled without special imports

<nefix>NieDzejkob: so, with the latest commit it should work, right?

<nefix>it's pulling...

<nefix>oh, it broke

<NieDzejkob>you could 'mkdir channel && mv nefix channel' and make .guix-channel point to the "channel" directory

<nefix>with the 3rd attempt commit, the following showed: (exception unbound-variable (value #f) (value "Unbound variable: ~S") (value (channel)) (value #f))

<NieDzejkob>yeah, that's because your configs directory is being compiled as part of the channel

<nefix>I seee

<Noclip>NieDzejkob: Because firefox seems to be the most requested guix package on the internet that no one has managed to build yet. (I know that firefox isn't compatable with the main repo due to trademark issues.)

<nefix>NieDzejkob: it has worked :D

<NieDzejkob>Noclip: anybody actually willing to put in the effort quickly realizes that you can use icecat just fine

<NieDzejkob>how do I know? I thought packaging firefox was one of the first things I was going to do, too

<Noclip>NieDzejkob: There might be some successful packaging attempts but I don't think any of them got popular / were widely accepted.

<Noclip>Mhh, maybe but there seem to be also many people having issues with icecat due to incompatable addons.

<NieDzejkob>I haven't encountered any incompatible addons

<Formbi>Noclip: there is not-so-free Firefox 74

<Noclip>I think the golden way would be to do it like F-Droid: Take the firefox source, remove/replace all proprietary parts (in case it has some), give it a new name and then ship it officially with the guix repo.

<Formbi>I'm now trying to bump it

<Formbi>NieDzejkob: nope

<Formbi>I'm not basing it on icecat

<Noclip>But don't do any other changes to it that aren't 100% necessary.

<Formbi>I mean, the thing I'm modifying probably is, but not via inherit

<Formbi>Noclip: yeah, it would be nice

<NieDzejkob>hmm, does firefox 74 use any rust code?

<NieDzejkob>I know 68 ESR does...

<Formbi>yes

<Formbi> https://forge.monarch-pass.net/warrah/warrah-nonfsdg/src/branch/master/warrah-nonfsdg/packages/firefox.scm#L193 here's the original thing

<NieDzejkob>hmm, I wonder why it's not in nonguix

<Noclip>Are the F-Droid packaging gude-lines compatable with the fsf?

<Noclip>NieDzejkob: IIRC the nonguix guix didn't manage to build it.

<Formbi>strange

<Formbi>it builds just fine

<Formbi>hmm

<Noclip>So it does work?

<Formbi>I'd share my current version too, but I remembered that I haven't uploaded the recipes for other things to Guix...

<Formbi>Noclip: the 74 one does

<Formbi>but I'm now trying to update it

<Noclip>Updating it to the newest version?

<Formbi>yes

<Formbi>why not?

<Noclip>Holy crap, there are a lot of forum posts and websites around the topic of getting firefox on guix xD

<Noclip>Formbi: Nice! 👍️

<Noclip>So if you want guix to get more popular adding firefox (as described above) might be the best thing to start with.

<Noclip>Doesn't icecat support webrtc?

<alextee[m]><Noclip "Mhh, maybe but there seem to be "> fwiw icecat is too broken for me, on every update i get issues with it. i use ungoogled chromium for the time being

<alextee[m]>firefox would be nice

<alextee[m]>or abrowser from trisquel!

<nckx>Noclip: Firefox's trademark has no bearing on its free-ness, that's just a persistent myth. It's not in Guix because it recommends proprietary software by default (not allowed by FSDG). That's it.

<nckx>IceCat could have been that, but they chose to make many more changes + add default add-ons.

<Noclip>alextee: I've already read several times that guix users couldn't use icecat due to stability issues or missing addon/feature support and as a long time firefox user I can completely understand that one doesn't just want to give up firefox and go with chromium.

*vagrantc mostly gave up on web browsers

<Noclip>nckx: So all you have to do to make firefox fsdg compatable is to remove all built in links to mozillas addon pages and if that's not compatable with the firefox trademark also change it's name, right?

<Noclip>:-/

<nckx>Noclip: It also contains (at least) references to proprietary codecs/DRM IIRC. You'd need to patch those out as well.

<nckx>I thought there were more tiny issues but maybe not: https://libreplanet.org/wiki/List_of_software_that_does_not_respect_the_Free_System_Distribution_Guidelines

<Formbi>it's done in icecat already

<nckx>See my remark on IceCat above. I wish they'd release a minimal-changes version but it's their right not to.

<Formbi>I mean it would be possible to take the unDRMing patches

<nckx>Oh sure.

<nckx>My main point is: not even the FSF above pretends that ‘trademarks’ have anything to do with it.

<Noclip>Would you have to create a new firefox repo to maintain a patched firefox version or could that all be done by guile code?

<vagrantc>guix could sanitize the firefox sources if you told it exactly what to remove

<nckx>☝

<vagrantc>that's done for linux-libre, for example

<vagrantc>and i think is how ungoogled-chromium is doing it as well

<nckx>It's the only way to follow an immense code base that moves swiftly. You really don't want to fork-and-merge-back. It's not sustainable.

<vagrantc>this is definitely one of those "you just have to remove X, Y and Z ..." and all the work is in doing that and maintaining it over time

<nckx>‘But why don't you just?’

<vagrantc>and the bulk of the work comes in maintenance

<vagrantc>which turns about to be ... a lot of work

<Noclip>Uff, living fsdg compatable doesn't seem to be easy.

<nckx>Works for me™.

<Noclip>Which browser do you use xD

<Noclip>?

<nckx>(Nitpick: users aren't FSDG-compatible, distributions are 🙂 Users are free, or free to choose not to be.)

<nckx>Noclip: Just IceCat.

<Noclip>nckx: Right, users are FSUG-compatible ...

<Noclip>Does Icecat support webrtc?

<nckx>So while I don't disbelieve people who say it doesn't work for them, I just can't see it myself.

<nckx>Noclip: It's currently disabled at build time because (IIRC) there's currently no way to enable it but prevent the information leakage it allows.

<nckx>Don't quote me on that.

<nckx>Again, it's ‘more work needed’, not ‘GNU hate webrtc’ (whatever that is).

<nckx>This is an outdated add-on page but explains the problem: https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/IceCat/Disable_WebRTC

<Noclip>Privacytools.io have a simple tutorial on how to disable webrtc in firefox by changing some settings. If icecat would just have those settings changed by default one should be able to just reactivate it by changing the settings again: https://www.privacytools.io/browsers/#webrtc

<nckx>I don't understand the point of WebRTC though. It seems to be for video/voice chat(!?). That's… not a Web browser's job, and clearly a bad idea or it would actually work.

<nckx>‘Bug: my PDF reader won't play podcasts.’ OK.

*nckx is procrastinating to avoid work 🙂 nckx → work.

<NieDzejkob>Bug: my text editor doesn't have IMAP support

<Noclip>Do you know jitsi it uses webrtc for in-browser voice/video calls.

<Noclip>NieDzejkob: 😂

<nckx>NieDzejkob: I know, it's horrible, I have to call out to an external tool :-/ Doesn't even support bloody IDLE.

<nckx>Noclip: I didn't.

<vagrantc>jitsi was/is used by the FSF for some part of their remote conference infrastructure ... it works ... plenty of glitches, of course ... but useful for some cases

<Noclip>Jitsi seems to be the best available foss alternative to proprietary programms like zoom, skype and others.

<vagrantc>right

<Noclip>vagrantc: How do they use it if their browser doesn't even support it? 😂

<nckx>I don't understand why it can't be as easy as ‘guix/apt/dnfoo install jitsi && jitsi’. Done. Why embed part of your code into (all) browsers, wait for everyone to upgrade to that browser, then… call webrtc.domyjob()? Anyway, that's a question for Jitsi, not for you, and I'm out of big rant energy.

<vagrantc>maybe there's an expose in the works!

<Noclip>(They just install firefox and don't tell anyone about it ... 😂)

<alextee[m]>speaking of jitsi, is it possible to stream to it with obs?

<alextee[m]>like instead of s treaming to twitch or youtube, can you use jitsi?

*alextee[m] uses twitch/youtube for now

<vagrantc>alextee[m]: you can screen capture the obs and project it...

<vagrantc>alextee[m]: or rather, jitsi supports broadcasting a window, including obs

<alextee[m]>there's no magic string that you pass to obs to connec to?

<alextee[m]>obs gives you more control like what scenes to broadcast at a specific time

<Noclip>nckx: I think most foss non-webrtc alternatives use much more bandwith which can be a deal breaker if you have more than 3 or 4 people in your conversation.

<vagrantc>you can stream the obs output, but jitsi is pretty fundamentally a web application...

<alextee[m]>oh that sucks

*alextee[m] waits for peertube livestreaming then

<alextee[m]>donate here! https://joinpeertube.org/roadmap

<Noclip>alextee: I think peertube is working on a foss live streaming implementation.

<alextee[m]>needs 60k euro for it, only 30k donated as of now :/

<pkill9>you could probably make a fake webcam device to use with jitsi

<pkill9>and stream OBS to the fake webcam device

<alextee[m]>that's too much hacking just to live stream somewhere

<pkill9>oh it's for livestreaming, i thought it was for web conferencing

<pkill9>but with some more customised webcam output

<Noclip>But just one month has passed ...

<nckx>alextee[m]: Done. I really hope they make it (and then make it).

<alextee[m]>👍️ you're doing gods work

<alextee[m]>(or helping god do work)

<Noclip>Can I create a read-only environment with "guix environment"? (Everything except for writeable filesystem access should be available just as it is outside of the environment. If I could write in the environment but everything gets cleaned after leaving it that would be even better.)

<NieDzejkob>Noclip: --container and --expose

<Noclip>NieDzejkob: But --expose=/ doesn't work.

<Noclip>Why does Guix need that much disk space?

<alextee[m]>Noclip: generations

<alextee[m]>and lots of garbage that you need to clean periodically. i have a script that purges lots of things including generations