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2025-01-08.log
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<jfred>cwebber: haha yeah I opened up my fediverse client after my meeting and whoa notifications! :P but thanks :) <dckc>anybody care to recommend an IRC client for Android? maybe a web client is best... <dthompson>yeah no way that would be packaged. uses npm <dckc>dunno why that makes it "no way". there are nix tools to take package.lock and Do The Right Thing. <dckc>meanwhile, thelounge has a docker thing... here's hoping for a "please launch this docker widget as a confined shepherd service" widget <dthompson>someone might have it in a channel but no way it could get into guix itself <dckc>I don't see the obstacle. <dckc>channels sound reasonable... is there an index of most of them somewhere? <dckc>yes, I read that. it over-states the case in various ways, IIRC <dthompson>nix claims to care about reproducibility, bootstrappability, etc. but in reality they just ignore that a lot of the time <dthompson>npm packages are unsuitable for inclusion in guix. lots of pre-built binaries, recursive dependencies, etc. <dckc>"some packages are bad; therefore all packages are bad" is not a valid argument <dthompson>in my experience even some packages that appear trivial are not <dckc>that's STILL not an argument that all npm packages are bad <dckc>most of the scheme stuff that I find has hopeless docs. so there :-P <dckc>a hello-world usage example in the README is somehow not part of scheme culture <dthompson>okay well we'll have to agree to disagree. I've spent a lot of time investigating how to do this in the past. <dckc>they're both related to adoption <dckc>a 1 line description for each channel would greatly improve my enjoyment of toys. , for example <dthompson>looks like there is a synopsis field but it's empty for most <jfred>dckc: I use goguma on android (using it right now in fact) and like it. Best with a bouncer that supports chathistory, sourcehut has a hosted soju instance if you happen to be a subscriber <Gooberpatrol66>what is the relationship of ocapn to captp? successor? superset? does something else entirely? <dthompson>captp is the core. netlayers provide message transport. URIs allow for bootstrapping users into the network. <Gooberpatrol66>maybe a weird question, can a netlayer be another capability system or is it supposed to be a "dumb pipe" to dump serialized data in? <dthompson>hard to say without specific examples but I suppose it could be some other capability thing, as long as the netlayer interface is implemented correctly <Gooberpatrol66>the idea came to me of captp as the rpc mechanism for gnu mach (hurd's kernel). it currently uses MIG as the IDL which i think is a problem as it's old and idiosyncratic and only supports C. but mach already creates a capability mechanism so i don't know if you can just take goblins off the shelf and use mach ipc mechanisms as a netlayer, or if that would be redundante functionality. i don't have a super clear idea in my head of the <dckc-mob>Experimenting with voice to text on mobile <cwebber>Gooberpatrol66: in fact you can even do an ocapn netlayer over ocapn <cwebber>That's how the (p)relay netlayer works. <cwebber>Gooberpatrol66: I don't know if mach ports can be a netlayer yet for sure but probably yes. To be done right requires some careful thinking however. <jfred>I haven't used the Hurd much myself yet but that sounds like a neat idea <dthompson>jlicht: after a failed overnight build (laptop ran out of ram or something), I finally have a working node 22.12.0 build using your patches and things look good! <dckc-e>ACTION waves from a thinkpad where he just installed guix <dckc-e>it said "can't find exwm config; falling back to default" or words to that effect. I'm a little surprised that it considers that remarkable. <dckc-e>It might make a little more sense if it included clues on how to set up a config. <dckc-e>looking for guiser, I found guix-emacs-autoload-packages... and ran it... now... what have I done? oh yeah... (checks help...) <dckc-e>this IRC mode autocompletes on nicks... which reminds me of the way that name: in IRC culture is used to address someone called name, whereas the norm for ages before was name, . name: usually means name said ... <dckc-e>I remember ctrl-H v, but that's for variables. but I want help on a command here... <jfred>ctrl-h f (for functions) might be what you're looking for <jfred>commands are interactive functions <jfred>if my sway config wasn't loaded for some reason I'd want to know about it... though it would be immediately obvious that it wasn't loaded because my session is heavily customized haha <dckc-e>exwm and sway are the same? or... I see. you mean by analogy <dckc-e>so IRC was built in, but I ran into "no web browser available". let's try package-list-packages... <jfred>they're similar in that they're both minimal/customizable tiling window managers <jfred>and coming into IRC later on I was always surprised when some IRC clients defaulted to "name," for addressing someone. I suppose that's maybe more of a MUD culture thing? <jfred>(well, and physical letter writing etc haha) <dckc-e>the only web browser I found in package-list-packages was luwak. but M-x webjump still gripes about no browser <dckc-e>heh... "no such file or directory lynx" <dckc-e>(dayjob alarms starting to chime. darn) <dckc-e>hm... no guix-install emacs command? I could use a shell, but the exercise here is to avoid that. <jlicht>dthompson: oof, I've not seen that happen yet. older machine, or big tmpfs perhaps? <dckc-e>package-list-packages shows nothing about guix. odd. <dckc-e>ok... found menubar-mode ... Options ... Set Default Font <jfred>dckc: Firefox :) I've tried nyxt a couple times but haven't stuck with it, that's the most interesting alternative to me though <jfred>I'm not sure if it's installed by default but you might find "M-x guix" useful <jfred>if it's not installed by default then the guix package "emacs-guix" would get it for you <jfred>it's got a whole menu-driven emacs interface to guix <dckc-e>gr... still fails. how do I get emacs to notice that I installed it? <dckc-e>normally I might quit and restart emacs, but now I'm more or less living in emacs, and I don't want to die. <jfred>that's actually something I haven't quite worked out either for emacs packages installed through guix ^^; <jfred>I feel like there must be a way to do it but I'm not in exwm so haven't dug into it that much <dckc-e>exwm docs talk about s-r as a keybinding. I know what c-r or M-r is, but what's s-r??? <jfred>super-r (or windows-r) I assume <jfred>you usually wouldn't use the super key in emacs because it's commonly used for WM/DE keybindings, but if emacs is your WM... <dckc-e>does emacs IRC keep logs somewhere? (for later, perhaps) <dckc-e>GRR! it forgot my font size change!!! <dckc>I suppose this case wasn't that rude. I did explicitly tell it to quit, and somewhere I'm sure it's documented that the menu I used to set the font size doesn't persist between sessions. but... ugh. <dckc>are we going to have a spritely goblins editor? :) <dthompson>jlicht: machine is from 2022 so quite new, 32GB of RAM. 20 cores so I think that plus leaving firefox open with a billion open tabs ate all the memory. I did the following build without firefox running and was up to ~26GB of RAM usage at peak. <dthompson>jlicht: I'm gonna leave a note of approval on your patch series. do you have commit access? I haven't kept up-to-date <dthompson>dckc: we'd like to have a browser-based learning environment, at least. so we can walk people through the basics without them needing to install everything. something to use for conference workshops and stuff. <dthompson>that would include some kind of editor + repl <dthompson>minus the UI work that would be needed, we're close to having the other essential components usable <dckc>have you considered gitpod? <dthompson>no, but looking at it I think it's too much for what we're going for. <dthompson>like we don't want to be launching cloud environments or anything <dckc>ah. I suppose you should be able to fit roughly your whole system in the browser <dthompson>yeah we need to keep things pretty minimal in terms of resources <dthompson>a fully featured dev environment is a little beyond our reach at the moment. but an app that can introduce goblins to people is feasible. <dckc>newspeak is deployed to the web using webasm <dthompson>I've seen a number of different "try it now" type things on various programming language web sites <dthompson>generally either a js port or an interpreter compiled to wasm with emscripten <jfred>it would be very cool if I could have live goblins code running in the browser on blog posts like my recent one <dthompson>yeah I think that will become possible this year <dckc>yes... newspeak is just particularly interesting because it's ocaps-all-the-way-down (to a platform, which is in smalltalk). The module system is cool. <jfred>(though I split up some of the objects in odd ways for commentary so I'd also need a way to tangle them together in literate programming style) <jfred>ACTION has been meaning to look into newspeak more <dthompson>might be good to take a closer look at it for oaken if it has a neat module system <dthompson>idk if there are other wasm binaries I'm not seeing but primordialsoup is quite small, only 322KiB. either there's more elsewhere or they've managed to do a lot with a little or maybe there's more stuff implemented in js <dckc>looks like my newspeak deep-dive was Nov 2021. That's what git blame on awesome-ocap says, anyway <dckc>primordialsoup.wasm is their VM <dckc>written in C++ (sigh)... but it's a bytecode VM. eventual send is one of the bytecodes :) <dckc>definitely an OCapN target <dckc>hmm... maybe something to explore for genode, too <dckc>I wonder whether the sysinit folks have seen newspeak <jfred>newspeak speaking ocapn to goblins would be neat :) <dckc>I'd love to have the newspeak folks join an OCapN meeting or something sometime <jlicht>dthompson: I can commit, or you can, after some appropriate time. I won't be at a PC before Monday either way :) <dthompson>jlicht: do you know if these can go right to main is there a team branch that they need to go to? <dthompson>I'm happy to commit them. I should check if node is a leaf package... <jlicht>I'm guessing straight to main, but we're cutting it close wrt guix refresh stats <jlicht>it impacts both chromium and the firefox-family of browsers, afaics <dthompson>yeah I think we should ask someone to get this pre-baked in CI before merging or something <dthompson>the browser recompilation will be disruptive <jfred>(as someone who regularly uses guix on small arm boxes, thank you for that XD) <jlicht>please do dthompson, thanks for getting this Node thing done <dthompson>I guess worst case scenario is I poke someone to take care of it at guix days lol