IRC channel logs

<juliana[m]>ACTION quietly whispers "Guix" in the background

<EWEW>guix, nix, alpine, solaris zones?

<juliana[m]>if we're going there... freebsd jails are also cool

<EWEW>"Hardware level safety: The hardware itself should not be a path to violating the integrity of our system, as free of side-channel attacks as possible, tamper-resistant, auditable and controllable by the end user, and understandable with well published specifications."

<Zarutian_iPad>ACTION adds capscium that list

<EWEW>FPGA implementing an abstract machine that goblins can run on?

<EWEW>I have some nightfury FPGA for this purpose as an add in card on my desktop.

<EWEW>The toolchains nowadays are actually progressing pretty quickly in terms of "freedom"

<EWEW>and you can do quite a lot with cheap FPGAs nowadays.

<momoninja>EWEW: I did not know wasmer. Concept looks nice; howewer I dislike the mentality of "curl foo | sh"

<momoninja>gonna sleep now, thanks for the input.

<momoninja>bye

<EWEW>momoninja: completely agree. that type of install process drives me bonkers. have a good one!

<haugh>the GNU build system is just curl | sh with extra steps

<jfred>Ooh, catching up - I was wondering if Andy Wingo was going to be the non-employee working on the Guile Wasm project :P

<jfred>Especially since he did that one Guile->Wasm FOSDEM talk a few years back... ;)

<jfred>And, well, Guile 😆

<drakonis>it surprises exactly no one that he's the one

<jfred>Yup, haha

<drakonis>given how much he posted about it

<drakonis>that and the wasm work he has already done

<cwebber>;)

<cwebber>sometimes "no surprises" is a good sign :)

<drakonis>indeed

<drakonis>cwebber: typos have been spotted here https://spritely.institute/supporters/

<drakonis>iglalia should be igalia

<cwebber>aha

<cwebber>fixing drakonis !

<cwebber>thx

<cwebber>drakonis: many thanks! it's fixed

<drakonis>so, a dumb realization, if guile can run on wasm, then it can run on cloudflare workers

<drakonis>which is, so to say, a significant achievement

<EWEW>It can also be run anywhere wasm runtimes have/can be embedded too which is quite a lot of languages now!

<dthompson>"Guile runs on everything"

<EWEW>the new Doom post.

<EWEW>It's exciting though. I've been indoctrinating someone into this world and she picked up racket quite quickly with 0 programming background. It's not far off at all now that she'll be able to switch over to Guile and then use that knowledge pretty much anywhere.

<dthompson>:)

<cwebber>:)

<cwebber>woot

<vv[m]>10 Billion Devices Run Guile

<cwebber>WASM really kinda is the JVM dream but done right in many ways

<juliana[m]>ACTION weeps in Inferno

<dthompson>I want to write the first Guile Applet

<EWEW>The main aesthetically i think they did right was WAT.

<juliana[m]>everything really is just a big circle coming back to plan9

<dthompson>the name is also right. "WAT"

<juliana[m]>or Unix, i guess

<juliana[m]>like a three-dimensional spiral where every level ascends closer to the platonic ideal, but the ideal never changes, only the material reality

<EWEW>It all goes back to the greeks and people painting in caves.

<juliana[m]>truly computers are merely shadows on the wall

<dthompson>I think I'm gonna switch from guile to tcl

<EWEW>juliana[m]: https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/the-art-of-the-shadow-how-painters-have-gotten-it-wrong-for-centuries/

<EWEW>We pick one of many arbitrary interpretations of shadows.

<EWEW>Kazimir Malevich though, he was trying to get close to a "platonic level" in art and ended up philosphically dealing with basically all the problems of computing without being involved with it at all.

<cwebber>work on the WASM stuff is already starting. haven't pushed details to it yet but you'll be able to track by checking the commit log of https://gitlab.com/spritely/guile-hoot-updates

<cwebber>which is where regular updates will be being posted

<cwebber>(along with the git repo of the actual guile dev branches at https://gitlab.com/spritely/guile )

<cwebber>the codename for this effort was chosen based on mascot cuteness

<cwebber>since the long term name of this effort is hopefully mostly "guile", as things get merged upstream hopefully :)

<cwebber>anyway anyway

<cwebber>I am between tasks and let's be honest mostly I just wanted to show off the cute owl mascot

<dthompson>ACTION hoots in excitement

<cwebber>ACTION puts on https://www.kelleemaize.com/songs/owl-time

<cwebber>(... I love that song)

<EWEW>I have a massive owl who is nesting outside my bedroom window (i live in the middle of nowhere). I guess it's been foreshadowing this development :)

<vv[m]>so that's what the owl was for!

<vv[m]>or actually, the mascot came before the decision? neat.

<Zarutian_iPad>ACTION is time-unencumbered due to cancelation of the weekly local hackerspace meeting

<Zarutian_iPad>so I am going to muse a bit on the electropet idea Tamagochi made so famous

<Zarutian_iPad>how would one implement such a pet?

<Zarutian_iPad>I am going to steal an idea from robotics, spefically from the subsumtion model: the leaky integrator

<Zarutian_iPad>what is that you ask? conceptually a bucket with a hole in the bottom

<Zarutian_iPad>a few float switches and some sources of liquid

<Zarutian_iPad>the bucket empties at some rate what ever liquid is put in

<Zarutian_iPad>some events/happenings put certain amounts of liquid into the bucket

<Zarutian_iPad>concrete example: say we are using such leaky bucket to represent anger the electropet is feeling

<Zarutian_iPad>certain events/actions/happenings/stimuli annoys the electropet in un equal amounts

<Zarutian_iPad>lets say we have a float switch at the lowest level of that bucket

<Zarutian_iPad>it activates an ‘show very mild irritation’ response/behaviour when the liquid level is above that particular float switch value

<Zarutian_iPad>we have a set of floats that activate more and more agressive display of fury. Topmost might be called ‘woman scorned furry’ and is, well, not something anyone wants activated

<Zarutian_iPad>you get the concept

<EWEW>Interesting idea. Instead of float switches I might use the weight of the bucket itself which adjusts the angle of some sort device which restricts/unrestricts flow into another bucket for another set of states.

<EWEW>for more gradations in behavior than might be achievable (practically) with float switches in a bucket.

<Zarutian_iPad>we also need buckets for fear, satation, anti-thirst, energy, happyness/pleasure, curiosity/nýungagirni and probably more

<EWEW>then you can use the levels/weight of the bucket(how much fluid is present) to modulate the inputs for other bucket(s)

<Zarutian_iPad>that is possible too

<EWEW>then you can also use the feedback of those further bucket(s) to modulate the anger bucket as well

<EWEW>in a feedback loop

<Zarutian_iPad>the floatswitches are meant for activating code procedures etc

<Zarutian_iPad>and this setup has nice knobs on it for ‘genes’ or temperment adjustment

<Zarutian_iPad>flow rate out of each bucket, lever linking as EWEW pointed out, placement of floatswitches, et ceterata

<EWEW>the knobs would presumably control this flowrate by controlling the size of the aperture of the bucket i assume

<EWEW>so then the genetic information is the specific values of all the aperture sizes for each bucket?

<Zarutian_iPad>could be more complexe too

<EWEW>and assuming some ideal fluid thats always the same in all meaningful characteristics to make things the same

<Zarutian_iPad>this bucket thing is usually implemented as an numeric variable for the liquid fullness

<Zarutian_iPad>and if statements that check the amount each ‘frame’

<Zarutian_iPad>to implement the float switches

<EWEW>God and Golem Inc. Analog Tamagotchi edition.

<EWEW>But I like this idea. It definitely seems like something some first gen cyberneticists would build or reason about.

<Zarutian_iPad>these bucket liquid amounts state can then feed into subsumption behaviours and probably brainy propagator, bayesian inference tuple space and so on

<EWEW>ACTION refraining from ranting about bayesians

<EWEW>:)

<Zarutian_iPad>ANNs can both feed from those and feed back into it by either having an output neuron control a tap that can let liquid into a bucket or such

<Zarutian_iPad>here is a bayes inference tuple in a tuple space I saw once: (operand_a operator oprand_b likelyhood_of_truthiness)

<Zarutian_iPad>can be as complex as whole lojban brivla with sumti places etc

<Zarutian_iPad>but that is a disgression from the buckets thing

<EWEW>Zarutian_iPad: another off the wall thought. You could probably represent this cybernetic system mathematically as a set of connected finite state transducers. Let each bucket be an FST. Then each FST can rewrite the other FSTs.

<Zarutian_iPad>add pain, hornyness, and boredom to that prior buckets list

<Zarutian_iPad>I have noidea what the heck Finate State Tranceducers are

<EWEW>but I'm pretty sure FSTs are closed under union. So then it makes me wonder: Can you just represent the entire bucket electronic pet as a single bucket. I think you could.

<Zarutian_iPad>Transduce*

<Zarutian_iPad>probably but it would be too opaque to the programmers then

<EWEW>All liquid inputs are outside observer controlled and then the flow rate of the single bucket, and the level of fullness of the single bucket then can be mapped onto all possible states of a multiple bucket system

<Zarutian_iPad>like a black box ANN

<EWEW>FSTs basically they take as input a string. the FST applies a finite amount of rewrite rules to produce an output string. the rewrite rules are basically at the level of regular languages.

<Zarutian_iPad>the idea is to make electropet thing that even smart eight to twelve and up could understand

<EWEW>I see.

<Zarutian_iPad>right a bit like Lindenmayer sring rewrite system

<Zarutian_iPad>string*

<EWEW>yes actually.

<Zarutian_iPad>”Why does Mr Neko, my cyberkitten electropet sulk so much?” kind of curiosity

<Zarutian_iPad>and the excercise is to freak some peeps out how little implementation wise one can get away with and how emergent behaviour can be made

<EWEW>On that note what freaks me out is this. It can be observed easily that there are a *finite* amount of say 512x512 images. That finite set of images is sort of like a magical looking glass. Within all these images is conceivably any possibility of the world.

<EWEW>Any document I could write, any place I could visit, and so on.

<Zarutian_iPad>512x512x8x8x8 ?

<EWEW>I mean any bit depth you want really

<EWEW>The problem always comes down to precision in the end.

<EWEW>But the amount of precision required to represent all possibilities is dependent on the precision I can sense the world with anyways :)

<Zarutian_iPad>you get freaked out by the phase space of possible data values?

<EWEW>The fact that it's effectively finite.

<Zarutian_iPad>here is a thing 128 bits is enough to provide each quark, electron and such with unique serial number

<EWEW>Pretty amazing.

<Zarutian_iPad>I might be off by some magnitudrs though but you get the idea

<Zarutian_iPad>magnitudes*

<Zarutian_iPad>not magniturds that habutal taco eating trucker will leave at a truck stops wc

<Zarutian_iPad>and you got that image trucking in ya mind

<Zarutian_iPad>ACTION is a known memester, octect is is most insidious one to date

<EWEW>what is octect?

<Zarutian_iPad>an octet with an extra c

<EWEW>lol

<EWEW>fair enough

<EWEW>i thought i was missing something

<Zarutian_iPad>nearly got it into a rfc once

<Zarutian_iPad>one that ran away from me though is You Only Live Once abverbiation. Meant it as meme of caution and based it on a quote by Churchill

<EWEW>I try to be precise, but i'm human. And also i have such bad luck with hardware. I've gone through like 3 keyboards this year alone.

<Zarutian_iPad>sorry about that

<EWEW>Now I'm using something with hot swappable switches :)

<Zarutian_iPad>which brand?

<EWEW>it's a keychron k2. I personally wouldn't recommend it but it's working for me for now.

<Zarutian_iPad>using swappable cherry black or brown switches?

<EWEW>swappable blues. But they don't use cherry unless you pay extra. they use gateron switches.

<Zarutian_iPad>and how do you go through three keyboards btw?

<EWEW>Okay, so taking some personal responsibility I have a bad habit of eating over my keyboard hahahaha

<EWEW>but at least now i can just pop off a key, pop out a broken switch, pop in a new one and be good to go.

<Zarutian_iPad>vitawrap or other such kitchen wrap

<Zarutian_iPad>a trick I learned from an mechanics shop

<EWEW>Oh that's for my friend who lives with me who loves to cook. I love the outputs, but I hate the inputs. I just eat lots of random things.

<EWEW>But recently just 500 variations on rice bowls

<EWEW>5 minutes of work to produce.

<Zarutian_iPad>otherwise use a matt based keyboard, like a zitty ddr matt

<Zarutian_iPad>ever tried hrísgrjónagraut (rice porredged is closest translation) with raising

<EWEW>You're memeing on me too hard. I can't keep up :). My brain reads that as "dance dance revolution" mat

<EWEW>Surprisingly I have once.

<Zarutian_iPad>rasins and kanil+sugar?

<Zarutian_iPad>that plus lifrarpylsa (kind like a cold haggis but just from the liver and not the blood) is one of my faviourites

<EWEW>I'm rethinking my strategy now. I should pick foods that aren't so easy to get into a mechanical switch.

<Zarutian_iPad>tried bantami beter special in cube cake form? whoops wrong decade

<Zarutian_iPad>belter*

<Zarutian_iPad>ACTION proceeds to retro causal import an entire Belter cusine just for the heck of it

<EWEW>I just searched that up and I've never heard of this before. Apparently I can buy some bantam chicks for $7.75

<Zarutian_iPad>you basically goopify thermal stabalized milk (called g-milk here) with gelatin

<Zarutian_iPad>and use that to make a rice cake like those japanese ones

<Zarutian_iPad>but you can add all sort of goodies to it like rasins, nuts, flavour powder capsules etc

<EWEW>interesting

<Zarutian_iPad>but stay away from that nasa astronaut “icescream” which is better suited as dry spackle

<EWEW>so i shouldn't feed it to my e-pet?

<Zarutian_iPad>only if you want it to shit bricks of it or whatever it becomes in their digestive tract

<Zarutian_iPad>EWEW 22:48:09

<Zarutian_iPad>so i shouldn't feed it to my e-pet?

<Zarutian_iPad>Zarutian_iPad 22:49:11

<Zarutian_iPad>only if you want it to shit bricks of it or whatever it becomes in their digestive tract

<Zarutian_iPad>Zarutian_iPad 22:51:20

<Zarutian_iPad>a very Meal Refusing to Exit thing

<Zarutian_iPad>ACTION continues to watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVzDRfO2sgs

IRC channel logs

2023-02-16.log