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<jab>gnu_srs1: I was actually thinking that devuan should have a Hurd distro. Just needs people willing to maintain it.

<sneek>Welcome back jab, you have 1 message!

<sneek>jab, gnu_srs1 says: that xlibre is available at Devuan: https://github.com/xlibre-deb/devuan

<nexussfan>jab: It wouldn't be too different from Debian/Hurd because Debian hurd doesn't use systemd afaik

<nexussfan>sneek: later tell kilobug XLibre actually works AND the maintainers are actually nice and as long as you actually help Xlibre in some way they won't get mad at you

<sneek>Okay.

<Noisytoot>The XLibre maintianer doesn't even know that ^ is xor in C. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/pull/56

<damo22>:\

<nexussfan>Noisytoot: he actively acknowledged his mistake, and fixed it, unlike wayland devs "your application works incorrectly, not our protocol"

<Noisytoot>nexussfan: He also made it unlikely to get adopted by distros by dropping xwayland. Now any distro that cares about wayland can't drop xorg even if they otherwise replace it with xlibre, they have to keep it just for xwayland

<Noisytoot>wayback is a better solution

<damo22>yeah but if he doesnt know the difference between << and 2^ in C, imagine how many bugs he will merge in

<nexussfan>damo22: it's not a one maintainer project :P

<nexussfan>Noisytoot: XLibre is not supposed to be part of Wayland, XLibre is strictly against Wayland. Wayback is not good because it is still the broken and buggy Wayland

<jab>I don't care what display server the hurd supports. Just so long as it works well. :)

<nexussfan>jab: Xorg works well currently, hopefully I can get XLibre to run more stable

<Noisytoot>nexussfan: Do you have any specific issues with wayland or is it just "XLibre good Wayland bad"?

<nexussfan>Noisytoot: https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277

<Noisytoot>nexussfan: Performance and RAM usage: Depends on the compositor, wayland is a protocol. And I've actually heard that the opposite is true on non-x86 systems, although I haven't tested it myself. Nvidia: whatever, proprietary drivers are a GPL violation anyway. Everything else: not an issue with wayback.

<Noisytoot>(actually wayback isn't ready yet, last time I checked it didn't support multi-monitor yet)

<Noisytoot>(but when it's more complete, it'll be a better solution)

<nexussfan>I was just going to ask about XRandR!

<jab>I thought I vaguely remember damo22 mention that the X that the Hurd runs is a REALLY outdated version of X. I could be mis-remembering that. I am very excited to try Xlibre on the Hurd!

<damo22>i never said that

<jab>then I'm mis-remembering. :(

<nexussfan>jab: you can already run it, https://github.com/NexusSfan/xlibre-hurd

<nexussfan>There are 3 bugs currently, see https://github.com/NexusSfan/xlibre-hurd/issues

<Noisytoot>Nvidia GPU support is also a complete non-issue on Hurd anyway

<nexussfan>Noisytoot: isn't wayland very linux (kernel) designed?

<Noisytoot>nexussfan: It runs on FreeBSD too.

<jab>nexussfan: well, once you get the keyboard working, let me know and I'll give it a true.

<nexussfan>Also doesn't wayland break access?

<jab>try*

<nexussfan>jab: yeah, that's probably the biggest bug right now D:

<Noisytoot> https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/open_issues/wayland.html

<jab>and I need to set up the ext2 journal. I REALLY need that working on my machine. I have to hard shut it off too many times.

<nexussfan>oops i meant remote access

<nexussfan>jab: Journal exists for EXT2?

<Noisytoot>more recently https://logs.guix.gnu.org/hurd/2024-10-30.log

<jab>I'm off to bed. Talk to you cool kids later!

<Gooberpatrol66>the ext2 journal is a special hurd thing that was recently developed

<nexussfan>oh

<Arsen> 03:08:56 <nexussfan> Noisytoot: isn't wayland very linux (kernel) designed?

<Arsen>no

<azert>for me the fact that a crash in the window manager takes down all running applications makes wayland broken

<azert>not even windows 95

<azert>but xlibre is not an option since it’s getting broken

<Gooberpatrol66>arcan has pretty cool crash recovery capabilities

<azert>to be honest, X11 is a dinosaur

<azert>it’s a protocol invented for a time where you had hundreds of dumb terminals connected to a mainframe

<azert>nowadays the Linux desktop wants to run games

<Arsen> 08:36:28 <azert> for me the fact that a crash in the window manager takes down all running applications makes wayland broken

<Arsen>it doesn't

<Arsen>it is a good bit easier to recover a wayland connection than an X connection, and in fact qt and gtk both do this

<Arsen>if kwin_wayland were to crash on my machine (which it doesn't, I've literally never had that happen), most programs would recover

<Arsen>(most, of course, because this is a client-side responsibility)

<Arsen>that said, of course the same issue exists with /usr/bin/X

<Arsen>... except that I am not aware of any clients that'd transparently recover from /usr/bin/X crashing

<youpi>sneek: later tell nexussfan (it's not a one maintainer project :P) : well, look at the commit stats in the past ~2yrs, it's essentially his commits

<sneek>Will do.

<youpi>sneek: botsnack

<sneek>:)

<sneek>Welcome back youpi!!

<apteryx>is mmap available on the Hurd?

<youpi>sure

<youpi>little software would compile, if not

<apteryx>thanks

<gnu_srs1>what's the main difference between mini.iso and netinst.iso?

<youpi>gnu_srs1: netinst.iso can install a system without any network access

<youpi>while mini.iso contains only the minimal that can boot the installer, and get everything else from the internet

<yang3>Hello, trying to install Debian GNU/Hurd on a laptop. I have an older EeePC laptop from Asus, which might be only 32-bit, would that be a suitable platform? (I read that best is to instlal inside KVM, but I don't have KVM)

<jab>hello friends!

<jab>yang3: that might work.

<jab>is it 32-bit x86 ?

<yang3>yes

<yang3>I downloaded the netinstall.iso and will try that

<jab>You will need to burn the cd by the way.

<jab>you cannot use a usb stick.

<jab>most likely, to get the Hurd to detect your hard drive, you will need to enter your BIOS and change the SATA connection to "compatibility" or to emulate a "PATA" device.

<jab>How many Gigs of RAM does that machine have ?

<yang3>jab I think it has 1 or 2 GB of RAM...and it doesn't have a CDRROM device

<yang3>Yeah, I thought about putting it on the USB stick :/

<yang3>It has DDR-2 RAM

<Arsen>hm, the Hurd lacks an AHCI driver?

<jab>Arsen: you can run SSDs on the Hurd. So no it does have an AHCI driver.

<jab>it just sometimes the installer does not detect the drive.

<Arsen>ah, intriguing

<jab>yang3: you can do a "cross install". That's where you use linux to install the Hurd onto the drive.

<yang3>Yes

<jab>if our wiki was up to date I would try to send you a link.

<jab>I'll see if I can squeeze in some time tomorrow to set up a alternative wiki site.

<yang3>I have an external CD-ROM

<jab>that probably connects via usb right?

<yang3>never tried it with EeePC, to see if I can load the image from there

<yang3>yes

<jab>the Hurd does not support usb. :(

<yang3>ah ok

<jab>If you can afford an older thinkpad, that's what I'd reccomend. T40, T60, T400, T200, T500

<jab>all of those have a cd drive, the hurd runs on them, and you have working ethernet.

<yang3>ok, I'll check if I can get any

<jab>I'm trying to get the Hurd to run on a T500 and T60 right now.

<jab>ebay is your friend.

<yang3>right

<jab>If you can afford the T200, T400, or T600, go for them. Very soon, you should be able to run the 64 bit version of the Hurd on those machines, which support 8GB of max ram.

<jab>or T500*

<jab>DON'T flash libreboot on the device. At the moment, I don't believe that you can run X on a librebooted device.

<jab>looks like my T60's root hard drive was so borked, that I had to use the installer cd to fsck the root file system.

<yang3>I still have a X201s I think

<jab>that one should work!

<jab>I think I may need to re-install my T60 machine...

<jab>everytime I try to shutdown the machine "sudo shutdown now" it starts to shut off, but then I get "Enter root password for system maintence (or press Control-D to continue)".

<jab>I'll try running apt update again soon and see.

<yang3>X201s has an integrated CDROM/DVD if I recall right

<yang3>the only problem is that the LCD matrix is broken/dead, but VGA-out on the monitor still work

<jab>hmmm. the hurd should support a VGA monitor.

<jab>you can give it a try.

<yang3>yes

<yang3>I'll try to obtain the thinkpad, which you mentioned

<yang3>but first I guess I'll test it with X201

<yang3>jab thanks for the guidelines

IRC channel logs

2025-10-22.log