IRC channel logs

<damo22>youpi: it seems we are using multiboot v1 in gnumach?

<damo22>we have not implemented passing of video info either

<damo22>should gnumach use the multiboot v2 framebuffer that is already set up by eg grub?

<youpi>damo22: it could be useful if we can pass it on to the hurd console and to xorg

<azert>damo22: I think that the device tree stuff (das u-boot) that they have on ARM is far superior to grub

<azert>Look here for instance how you pass the frame buffer https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/display/simple-framebuffer.txt

<azert>Everything is custom, there are no standard chips and firmwares from the ‘80s

<damo22>youpi: I have been looking into why coreboot + SeaBIOS + SeaVGABIOS does not seem to work with VESA Xorg. It seems seavga (cbvga) does not implement the correct int10h VBE 2.0+ protected mode table

<damo22>azert: i dont think we should bother supporting x86 with uboot

<azert>damo22 : I know that it’s not widely supported

<damo22>i dont know how to implement the VBE 2.0 protected mode code block

<azert>damo22: I don’t think doing that would be 64-but compatible

<azert>64-bit

<azert>You cannot call into real mode from 64bit. You can, but for some reason people say it’s insecure

<azert>You would have to implement an x86 emulator

<damo22>apparently there are two ways to do protected mode VBE, one is the old way 2.0 where you call into real mode and get a far pointer to a protected mode structure, the other way is 3.0 where there is a protected mode entry point for VBE itself

<damo22>i dont know how to implement either of these

<damo22>in seavga

<damo22>both multiboot1 and multiboot2 supports the old way 2.0

<damo22>if i just reuse the existing framebuffer, i could make the hurd console work via multiboot2, but X would try to call the vesa extension and fail

<damo22>the best way to fix this is to implement VESA bios extension 2.0

<azert>Maybe you could use a different X driver

<azert>One that would take the framebuffer without doing anything with it. Not sure it exists

<damo22>that is what vesa is supposed to do

<azert>xf86-video-fbdev ? And implement a fixed resolution fbdev ?

<azert>I think vesa wants to probe the resolution with the bios

<damo22>yes

<azert>fbdev does that with fbdev

<damo22>the bios should just return the existing framebuffer address

<azert>The Hurd console maybe can provide it

<damo22>coreboot actually lights up the display and saves framebuffer info in coreboot memory tables

<azert>Yes, console can read them and pass to x

<damo22>seavga(cbvga) uses this and exposes int10h vbe

<damo22>but it is missing the protected mode version

<damo22>ie, the ax=4f0a op code is hardcoded to fail

<damo22>if Xorg vesa backend can be changed to fall back to real mode it would work

<damo22>i am looking in xorg-server, i cant find any code that uses VBEGetVBEpmi

<damo22>maybe the reason VESA is failing on hurd's Xorg is because the graphics mode is set to text mode in coreboot

<damo22>but if you set the linear framebuffer mode in coreboot, hurd console cannot functoin

<damo22>i need to test if hurd X can work

<damo22>i get Cannot open keyboard (not a directory)

<damo22>youpi: /dev/cons is a link to cons/mouse but there is no directory cons

<damo22>then Xorg cannot find the directory /dev/cons/

<damo22>/dev/mouse i mean

<damo22>what is the output of showtrans /dev/cons on a hurd system?

<azert>damo22: re if you set the linear framebuffer mode in coreboot, hurd console cannot functoin. That needs to be fixed first in my opinion. X11 will follow

<etno>From memory, qemu's multiboot support does not have graphics handover capability. When I was playing with this, I had to use grub with its vesa module.

<youpi>damo22: you need to start the hurd console for xorg to start

<youpi>the xorg mouse & keyboard drivers use the hurd console repeaters

<youpi>there is no passive translator on /dev/cons, it's the hurd console that attaches itself to it

<Guest14>Hello

<Guest14>Is there even the slightest hope that gnu/hurd will become an active system widely used by all?

<Guest14>ahmubashshir ?

<gnucode>hey hurd friends!

<gnucode>damo22: showtrans /dev/cons -> no output

<gnucode>$ showtrans /dev/cons

<youpi>as I said, it's not a passive translator

<youpi>it's set up by the hurd console

<gnucode>hmmm. I didn't know that the Hurd uses active translators in practice. I figured their only usecase was for testing. That's cool.

<Guest14>hurd for desktop environment can be tested on real hardware youpi

<gnucode>Guest14: will the Hurd ever become an actively system widely used...that's a large goal, but sure why not?

<gnucode>It's stable enough for me to edit the Hurd wiki, read email, use X, chat on irc.

<gnucode>I had dino working at one point, but now it fails to start. Netsurf works too.

<Guest14>I want to try hurd now, is it possible? gnucode

<gnucode>For the casual hacker, it's got everything you would want in real hardware.

<gnucode>Guest14: yes! Get yourself a Thinkpad T60. It'll cost maybe $50 - $100. The Hurd installer works, but it is a little wonky. You'll probably have questions when you try to install it.

<gnucode>I am currently chatting to you from the Hurd on real hardware from a T43 with 1.5 GB of RAM.

<gnucode>Guest14: please note, there are quite a few weird things on the Hurd. tiny little issues that will annoy you.

<gnucode>for instance you cannot simple kill X the normal way. You have to configure C-A-Del to kill X.

<gnucode>Once you have overcome those little head aches, it is a working stable system.

<gnucode>My latest blog post talks about how I was able to recover my T43 after a pretty nasty crash.

<gnucode>gnucode.me

<Guest14>No idea on that C-A-Del gnucode

<gnucode>With X, you can configure C-A-Del to kill X. I'll send you a link

<gnucode> https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-install

<gnucode>Guest14: search on that page for Xorg

<gnucode>It'll tell you how to configure C-A-Del

<Guest14>Can you post a screen from your terminal with the details of neofetch ? gnucode

<gnucode>be sure to read everything on that page.

<Guest14>The start of the instructions of those page is for qemu ... gnucode

<gnucode>Guest14: read everything on that page. the qemu stuff is also relevent for the real hardware stuff.

<gnucode>also I can't install neofetch at the moment.

<gnucode>jp2a can't be installed.

<gnucode>I guess the unstable debian GNU/Hurd hasn't installed it yet.

<gnucode>uname -a -> GNU pippin 0.9 GNU-Mach 1.8+git20240714-up-486/Hurd-0.9 i686-AT386 GNU

<Guest14>fasfetch ? gnucode

<gnucode>unable to locate package fasfetch

<Guest14>htop ?

<gnucode>I can show you top

<gnucode>I just realized that rumpdisk is a running process...at least it shows up on top.

<gnucode>I should probably disable it, because I'm not using it.

<Guest14>Friend gnucode with rufus you can burn the hurd iso image on a usb stick ?

<gnucode>Guest14: the Hurd doesn't have usb support at the moment. You can access usb hard drives via the Hurd (it's still experimental), but if you want to install the Hurd on real hard ware, then you need to install via a cd.

<Guest14>Because there is no cd at present gnucode

<gnucode>Are you saying that you do not own or cannot buy a CD ? If so, then I don't believe that you can install the Hurd in real hardware.

<gnucode>no that's not true.

<gnucode>There's the debian cross install or something.

<gnucode>it's just harder to use.

<Guest14>I'm saying that it's hard to find a CD nowadays.

<gnucode> https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/running/debian/CrossInstall.html

<gnucode>If you don't want to find a CD, then try the crossinstall

<gnucode>You can find all sorts of old computer stuff on ebay.

<Guest14>I would like to buy a CD that is reusable

<gnucode>I'm sure you can find one on ebay.

<Gooberpatrol66>gnucode: just want to say huge thanks for all the documentation work you're doing

<gnucode>Gooberpatrol66: thanks. It's how I can help out. So why not?

<Gooberpatrol66>why not indeed

<damo22>youpi: how do i start the hurd console? i tried service hurd-console start but it doesnt work

<youpi> /etc/init.d/hurd-console start

<youpi>which should be similar

<youpi>but possibly more verbose

<damo22>its not configured somehow

<damo22>it returns to the same shell

<damo22>does it have a config file?

<youpi> /etc/defaults/hurd-console

<damo22>ok somehow my hurd package was out of date

<damo22>it works now

<damo22>youpi: Unable to determine if running in a console. Only console users are allowed to run the X server

<damo22>how do i start X

<damo22>as non-root

<youpi> https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-install

<youpi>see X.Org section

<damo22>thank you

IRC channel logs

2024-10-20.log