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<gnucode>geez "git send-email -3" ...that's how you send a patch series with the top 3 commits. That's a handy trick.
<danmorg>wb gnucode
<gnucode>danmorg: wb ? why bother? What's up brother?
<danmorg>welcome back
<gnucode>water is brown?
<gnucode>danmorg: what's your interest in the Hurd?
<danmorg>I am reading The Minix Book - Operating Systems: Design and Implementation 3rd edition. I have installed the book 3.1.0 and later versions of Minix in a vm. I am using minix to help me learn unix-like internals to help make me a better unix programmer and user and administrator. i am not new to unix but i am stil a novice. i wanted to buy this book years ago. finally did.
<danmorg>also, the userland from netbsd has been put into the latest minix. and there has been talk about using other stuff. I was pointed to the Hurd that it is another microkernel OS and has used some stuff from netbsd like rump kernels for real hardware device drivers.
<gnucode>danmorg: my biased understanding is that the Hurd has far more applications ported to it than minix. But minix is probably better designed.
<gnucode>But that is still pretty cool!
<danmorg>i also think minix, hurd, and netbsd are approachable by those who want to learn. linux is very big. it kernel is monolithic. and internals change all the time.
<gnucode>that is very true.
<gnucode>I'm sorry, but I need to log off of irc again. I'll be back in a few.
<danmorg>Minix I using for its intended purpose - education. however, like others, I would like to improve it to work on modern hardware. no usb nor scsi support. at least it runs in a vm.
<danmorg>s/using/am using
<gnucode>fair enough. brb
<jab>sorry that I keep logging off and on.
<jab>I am trying to work on updating the hurd manual a little bit.
<jab>and I wanted to see if # umount /home; # mount /home; and then see if I could log in.
<jab>apparently you can!
<jab>that's kind of cool.
<danmorg>ah. jab is gnucode
<jab>danmorg: yeah.
<jab>I'm talking to you from my linux box now.
<gnucode>I also blog on
<gnucode>danmorg: I personally have found that the Hurd seems to be so much more stable on real hard ware.
<gnucode>Emacs is actually far more stable when it runs in X, then when it runs in the console.
<danmorg>i tried to install hurd but it failed. i was going to try again later but start ovre completely with a new vm but change the settings to be an IDE drive - not SATA or SCSI
<danmorg>VMs allow you to test drive. see how the installer works. see how it boots. or maybe go with a vm image already created that i download.
<danmorg>gnucode: hmmm... i would have to make a partition for the Hurd for bare metal. might as well since i need to resize my linux partition to be smaller. i want to add partitions for other stuff anyways. netbsd and linux from scratch. again, all the stuff i am doing is for my self-learning.
<danmorg>my host is debian linux 12 amd64. i have been using virtual box. is there a better hypervisor to use for the Hurd?
<gnucode>danmorg: youpi (the hurd maintainer) runs the Hurd on Xen I believe.
<gnucode>So you can run linux & the Hurd at the same time.
<gnucode>on the same machine.
<gnucode>in about 5 minutes I am going to go hang out with a friend for a walk.
<danmorg>ok. i have to read up on Xen
<gnucode>It would be really cool to set up dual boot with guix system and the Hurd.
<danmorg>what is guix?
<gnucode>there should be a wiki page on the hurd for how to use it.
<gnucode>oh bro, let me blow your mind!
<gnucode>I use guix system on this machine (linux box). It is easily the coolest linux distro around. It is also the official GNU distro.
<youpi>"@bors r+"
<youpi>\o/ hurd support getting commited in rustc
<gnucode>awesome! great work team!
<danmorg>guix is the GNU project's own free software version of Linux?
<danmorg>that means official support for Rust programming language on the Hurd now?
<youpi>"getting", means not now, but soon
<danmorg>guix is available for the Hurd and Linux.
<damo22>danmorg: guix is a package manager, and a distro apparently
<anatoly>damn, I'm so far only fighting guix :-)
<anatoly>or more precisely guile
<anatoly>it's currently the thing that slows me down from configuring it ot my needs
<danmorg>hmmm... guix as a hurd distro is only for current. not a stable release.
<anatoly>youpi: hi, what was the steps when preparing qoth? I guess the main source is the mail-list and then additional details from you guys?
<anatoly>danmorg: I might be wrong, but it's in early stages so far
<youpi>anatoly: mostly, yes
<anatoly>youpi: where was draft version prepared? Straight on the wiki or just via exchanging few emails?
<youpi>I don't remember exactly, but most probably directly on the wiki
<youpi>reviving qoth would be *very* welcome ;)
<anatoly>I'm trying to try myself in this role :-D
<anatoly>If you do it now would you take Q3 only news (jul, aug, sep)?
<youpi>I'd say you could write qoth of previous quarters too
<youpi>as your time permits
<youpi>of course the most recent would probably be the most useful
<anatoly>gnucode: I see the last qoth was added by you. Do you have anything to share about prepping qoths?
<danmorg>i had to internet search what quot netbsd. display disk space by each user
<danmorg>does seem important if you have multiple real users on a netbsd system
<danmorg>hmmm. context of what was said for quot does not match what i searched... hmmm....
<danmorg>quote of the hour?
<danmorg>something related to news or release notes or blog?
<anatoly>qoth = quarter of the Hurd, e.g.
<gnucode>danmorg: yes.
<gnucode>Basically the best place to find information on the hurd is on the wiki.
<gnucode>and in the irc logs.
<gnucode>I am trying to move some of that information into the hurd manual.
<gnucode>which surprizingly is not installed on the Hurd.
<gnucode>danmorg: "gnucode is on the move." hahah.
<danmorg>i am one of the people who like my documentation installed on the system even if it takes longer to download and install and uses more space.
<danmorg>yeah. lol
<gnucode>I think it could be that the hurd manual is in such a poor state that it is not install by default.
<gnucode>justa guess though.
<gnucode>and yes the Guix System Hurd is not yet super stable. You cannot install it on real hardware.
<gnucode>though I think at least one Guix System person has.
<gnucode>I personally chose to use Debian GNU/Hurd, because I supposed it to be more stable, and they have already packaged 65% of debian.
<gnucode>That's pretty good!
<gnucode>it's super easy to write a qoth, but it does take time.
<gnucode>submit what you can, edit it as best as you can, and youpi will normally provide further edits.
<anatoly>gnucode: thanks for the link
<gnucode>you are welcome. :)
<danmorg>is the error critcal installing debian hurd? error reading seed ffile
<gnucode>danmorg: it shouldn't be.
<gnucode>I think I had the same thing.
<gnucode>There were a few hiccups that I had to just push through.
<gnucode>danmorg: how are you installing it?
<danmorg>in a virtual machine using Virtual Box on debian linux 12 host
<gnucode>danmorg: I think using qemu is going to be better.
<gnucode>than virtual box.
<gnucode>also if you choose qemu, then it is just sooo much easier to use the pre-installed qemu image.
<gnucode>You can actually increase the size of the partitions too.
<gnucode>of the pre-installed image.
<danmorg>ok. i will try that after installing hurd via virtual box. first time i failed because i did not change the drive controller to IDE
<danmorg>what desktop has good support for debian hurd? xfce, kde, .lxde, etc... i want something that will work well.
<danmorg>i am at the desktop selection screen
<gnucode>danmorg: lxde is probably a good choice.
<danmorg>thank you
<gnucode>I think that is the desk "desktop environment" that we have currently.
<gnucode>I am using i3, which is even more lightweight.
<danmorg>i like LXDE. comes with Raspian for the Raspberry Pi 3b+
<gnucode>danmorg, you will probably have some issues running X. honestly, you shouldn't even try to run X until you talk to me.
<gnucode>There are a lot of gotchas.
<gnucode>also I just tried to send my first patch series, and it sort of failed...
<danmorg>ok. for me, it is more important to successfully install, reboot, and start up and let me log in... type some commands like ls, df, uname, vi... if they work, great!
<danmorg>X and a desktop are just a nice to have where you have multiple terminals open
<danmorg>i only use minix as a console. but i am using minix for my unix internals self-education
<gnucode>sounds like a plan. I am going to get ready for bed. enjoy installing. feel free to ping me, if you run into issues.
<gnucode>also "git send-email -n6" is failing on the hurd
<danmorg>ok. i will bug tomorrow then... lol
<gnucode>Can't locate object method "IN" via package "FakeTerm" at /usr/lib/git-core/git-send-email line 962.
<danmorg>it worked this time. yay1 Debian Hurd 2023 installed. so, changing the controller to IDE worked in virtual box. rebooted. started up. logged in as normal user. df, uname, ls alll work.
<danmorg>i meant Yay!
<danmorg>i can see how the Hurd needs some people to work on docs.
<danmorg>maybe i should join a hurd mailing list... or see the archives of one. there might be some stuff there
<damo22>bug-hurd is a good one
<damo22> $ man gcc sucks
<damo22>No manual entry for sucks
<danmorg>no offense to anyone with what i have to say. to use the hurd, you have to like puzzles... and have unix experience already... well, i need the unix experience first i guess... but at least the basics work... other than that, i don't have a clue. basics being ls, df, uname, vi
<danmorg>ACTION goes to search what bug-hurd is
<danmorg>ok. i found the bug-hurd mailing list.
<danmorg>i read that Hurd 386 support PAE now which means it can use more than 4GB of RAM. wow!
<azeem>FSVO now:
<nikolar>Well it's a lisp/scheme
<nikolar>It takes some getting used to
<nikolar>A more annoying thing is that guix needs a lot of custom syntax in guile so it's harder to turn (harder to find documentation and such)
<anatoly>nikolar: i quite follow it, can read it and write some trivial things but I have zero knownledge of guiles "standard library" and on top of it guix custom stuff.
<anatoly>Say I want to drop some package from the predefined list of them. And it took a while to figure out guix helper functions via scanning all of the docs for examples and also some standard guile way (or maybe even scheme way) from their veeeery formal documentation
<nikolar>Well it's usually recommended to take a look at a package similar to the one you're making and copy what it's doing basically
<anatoly>I mean I prefer learn by reading not by watching youtube videos but it's very steep learning curve if i want to follow declarative way
<nikolar>Yeah understandable
<zamfofex>gnucode: I have installed Guix on the Hurd on real hardware a few years ago, but it had no networking (because netdde was broken, and Mach’s inbuilt drivers didn’t quite do it). They have fixed it since then, so I imagine you can now use the Hurd with Guix well enough! (Though I have been waiting for substitutes to work well on CI so I don’t have to build everything from source.)
<danmorg>Good morning
<nikolar>good morning
<gnucode>danmorg: nikolar "Do you merely wish me a good morning? Or do you mean that this is a good morning to be good on?"
<nikolar>well since it's not a morning here, i wish you a good morning
<gnucode>sounds like a plan.
<gnucode>What hurd stuff are ya'll working on?
<danmorg>gnucode: is that a general question to anyone?
<zamfofex>I imagine that’s what “y’all” is meant to mean.
<danmorg>i am not at a point to even think about making changes to the Hurd. I am trying to learn it. I installed Debian Hurd last night in a VM. It works.
<gnucode>pretty much. definitely a general question to anyone.
<gnucode>danmorg: yeah, I'm am trying to learn too. I can certainly contribute documentation. I should definitely finish the netsurf port.
<gnucode>I have discovered 3 tiny software bugs in various packages. so fixing those would be nice.
<danmorg>gnucode: glad your contributing to Hurd documention. Hurd needs it.
<gnucode>danmorg: I would agree. I actually found "shadowfs" last night in the hurd manual...a simple grep from the irc logs...apparently shadowfs became unionfs
<youpi>(bors) Pushing f73d376 to master...
<youpi>the rust support for hurd is in :)
<VedantT>rust support for libc is still pending checks
<youpi>VedantT: \o/