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2024-04-30.log
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<civodul>why we didn’t build this, with everything we have, is a mystery <dthompson>well guix could still make one and have the advantage that it's not written in rust ;) <dthompson>unrelated thought I just had: I wish I could *pause* 'guix build' sometimes. like I'll start a guile-next build then remember that I have to join a video call and have to kill it so my call doesn't lag. <civodul>something for the new daemon, who knows? :-) <sham1>Is the current daemon still the one forked from Nix? <sham1>But yeah, pausing builds would be nice. Could also be useful in debugging package definitions. For example, if you could pause between build phases <sham1>Anyway, speaking of the daemon, in a home configuration and when it's being built, is there some way to find the user whose home configuration is being built? Or some more specific information like the home directory path <sham1>I'm generating an .xinitrc file and I want to reference an .Xresources in there for the purpose of using the xrdb command to set the X resources appropriately <Guest70>Is it possible to get pulseaudio working inside a guix shell --container? with alsa you can just expose /dev/snd, but pulseaudio seems more complicated. any pointers? <lilyp>you'd need at least the config files, and possibly XDG_RUNTIME_DIR as well <lilyp>but note that you could talk from the container to your local pulse over a socket or smth <ieure>Yeah, that's what you'd want to do. Exposing the device node to the container won't work, since you probably have pulse or pipewire running on the host, which gets exclusive access to the hardware. So you have to forward the socket for that into the container. <apteryx>'guix system reconfigure' hangs with guix at commit 4514239971895fc7ad47c7752e30d98a0c44a154 <apteryx>perhaps the shepherd bug that was reported/fixed recently? (forgot which) <apteryx>has anyone ever used sysdig? is the userspace application useful without the kernel modules (which appears to be proprietary?) <ieure>apteryx, eBPF is indeed in the kernel, and one of the biggest sources of vulnerabilities since landing. I know some distros are disabling it by default because of that. Not sure what Guix is doing, but that might make things a bit more difficult. <apteryx>it sounds a lot like browser tech in the kernel <apteryx>an isolated VM running user programs bytecode in the kernel <ieure>Yeah... for some definition of "isolated." <ieure>Real shocker that running untrusted user code in the kernel might not be the best idea, security-wise. <apteryx>ah, I can click on the ID column, which is effectively the same <apteryx>or even any column, such as 'Date submitted' <apteryx>I don't see any shepherd issue there about a hang on 'guix reconfigure' <GNUtoo>Hi, is there some documentation somewhere on how the system tests work? I get more or less how marionette work (it runs qemu and has a guile interpreter running on the target os and that goes through a qemu socket), but I'm a bit lost on how it's supposed to be integrated in Guix. For instance are the tests just guile files that guile can run and is it somehow hooked through automake as tests? If so how come <GNUtoo>Guix doesn't need network access when it builds? <apteryx>ieure: 'zgrep -i bpf /proc/config.gz' suggests bpf is enabled for our kernel <apteryx>so I guess sysdig will work out of the box on guix <zilti>Also, I made an update for the user-facing cmake, since I needed this for a package I have. Not sure if it is suitable for inclusion (yet), but I can confirm that it works for me at least: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/70675 <futurile>we should total pull in the proprietary firmware so that users can easily install Guix - I don't think the current tradeoff for users is a good one personally <apteryx>futurile: free software was never about convenience; this has been discussed in the past <futurile>apteryx: things move on - Debian integrates firmware these days - "convenience" is a vertical wall for most users - if you can't get your basic system to boot as your first steps along the path then you're being locked out off free software <GNUtoo>futurile: there are other distributions based on Guix that do exactly that <nat-418>futurile: Debian offers free and non-free ISOs. You have to go looking for the non-free ones, though. <futurile>GNUtoo: that's great - I'd like Guix - as the main distribution to integrate firmware drivers as well - I doubt there are many people who can install Guix without using nonguix or another guix-based distribution to be honest <GNUtoo>I'm one of these people, I run Guix on many computers, and none really require nonfree firmwares <apteryx>futurile: most GPUs work without the blobs for basic 2D, even amdgpu these days IIUC <ieure> nat-418, Debian doesn't do this anymore, they added a firmware section and the normal installer has WiFi drivers as of Debian 12. <GNUtoo>I chose my computers accordingly though <futurile>GNUtoo: I'm not saying it's impossible - I'm just saying it's unlikely for many general users who don't (or can't afford) to buy stuff like that <apteryx>you need to find some wifi gear that is compatible but that is not that hard or expensive (it can be mildly inconvenient in the form of an external USB dongle for a laptop) <ieure>I will say, the combination of Guix *only* having a network installer and also not shipping WiFi drivers is not great. <ieure>It would be really nice if there was a Guix installer that didn't require the network. <nat-418>ieure: I appreciate the correction. Thank you. <apteryx>I've yet to find a PC on which I couldn't install Guix with linux-libre (I've installed it on maybe 6?) <GNUtoo>Also nothing prevent people from creating distributions that reuse Guix with an installer, a manual, support channels, etc and this is probably easier to do it in this way than having to patch an existing distro to remove nonfree software. <apteryx>ieure: the wifi drivers are included in the kernel or as kernel modules available by default, for the common free ones, AFAIK <futurile>true - but personally I'm not that excited about working on something SO niche that the user has to make their own distribution first heh <GNUtoo>Especially because nonfree software can pop up anywyere so it's much easier to add nonfree software on top from another distro. <GNUtoo>Anyway Guix would probably explode if nonfree firmwares were added in it, so there would be no distro anymore... <ieure>apteryx, Yes, I'm aware that linux-libre has drivers for hardware which I do not own. <ieure>Is there any free WiFi hardware newer than the ath9k stuff? I bought one of those a while back for my LibreBooted X60, but it wasn't very good IMO. It ran really hot. <zilti>If we're being honest, Guix is the opposite of accessible for "normal" users anyway, so at most it'd get some more users to move from Nix to Guix. But yes, Wifi support is an issue. <apteryx>I've used in in the past; you need to take the data with a pinch of salt as anyone can report (wiki-like) <GNUtoo>Not really, but not all ath9k are equals, some supports 5GHz with high bandwith, other support only 2.4 GHz and are slow (no MIMO). <apteryx>anyway I'm not saying the hardware situation is awesome with free software, just that giving up and installing blobs is not the solution <futurile>zilti: true - Guix is pretty difficult at any level - I'm mentioning it because I can see new users thinking about Guix due to the Nix meltdown - and even for them telling them "oh yeah all you have to do is go get an installer from this third-party called nonguix" seems weird to me <GNUtoo>As usual there are ways to improve the situation (like make rome realteck WiFi work with free software) but everytime people complain and never look at it, <ieure>apteryx, I agree it's not where I'd like to be long-term, but needs must. <GNUtoo>For realteck it's relatively easy to do <apteryx>pestering the manufacturers, reverse engineering or outright engineering are more in line with free software activism ;-) <futurile>I've always been against barriers early on in the journey - it's hard to get people excited about something if the first thing they run into is a massive wall <ieure>Yes -- gotta have an internet connection to pester the manufacturers, though, you know? <GNUtoo>The firmware is a binary in a driver with GPL headers, it's 8051, the entry point is known, etc <ieure>Just another bootstrapping problem. <GNUtoo>But it's easier than changing Guix to accept nonfree software anyway <futurile>why is it "easier" - not having firmware is a choice - nonguix already has it - and it's a choice that other distros have changed in the last 10 years? (to apteryx's point I'll go look at the discussions from the past) <GNUtoo>Because the community would explode and you won't have guix devs anymore <GNUtoo>Guix would also need to quit GNU and so on <GNUtoo>Here you have many contributors and it works because people mostly agree with the way things are done <futurile>I didn't say it was easy - but point taken - I'm not sure there's that much consensus - but maybe <GNUtoo>If you start adding nonfree firmwares that would create very heated discussions, people would start leaving because of that etc <apteryx>futurile: it's not about easy; it's about committment to free software ideals <GNUtoo>because some people (me included) care about having something 100% free that they can contribute to, use, etc <futurile>apteryx: you're putting words in my mouth again - I didn't say easy GNUtoo did <Altadil>futurile: maybe a better path would be to improve the nonguix installation experience, if it is lacking. I’m sure they would welcome more help. :) <nat-418>I think if people want to make it easier for those burdened with the need for non-free software, they should write more blog posts, guides, etc. <GNUtoo>By easy I meant in term of amount of work to be done <GNUtoo>Like reusing Guix in another distro is not a lot of work <nat-418>I was able to get Guix working on my machine with the right channels added, but I had to do a lot of digging online. <futurile>apteryx: I said that in the context of making the change in the project - I specifically said it's not convenient at the start of their free software journey - a barrier <GNUtoo>same for making realteck wifi work <nat-418>More documentaiton of how to do things in Guix could fix these pain points. <GNUtoo>But making Guix ship nonfree software won't realisticly work <futurile>OK I'll shut up - but I neveer like "oh this is how we've always done it" as an argument for anything <GNUtoo>It's not because of that, it's because many people who contribute to Guix care about 100% free software <apteryx>maybe catchup on the philosophy on the GNU website if you haven't already <dlowe>futurile: you do realize that gnu is a political organization with a specific philosophical agenda, right? <GNUtoo>So that'd create some very heated discussions <apteryx>and e.g. the GNU FSDG guidelines we adhere to as a project <dlowe>I'm totally okay with guix being a) 100% free software and b) compatible and extendible with other options <futurile>dlowe: I've worked professionally in free sofware - I also know that Debian - a DFSG project - ships firmware - so I think multiple different groups have different views on this <GNUtoo>+ Guix would need to change URL, stop becomming GNU, etc <dlowe>futurile: Debian was founded to be a Very Good Distribution, not to shift the window towards software freedom <GNUtoo>And so if you compare the amount of work between reusing Guix and modifying Guix to include nonfree software upstream, the former is a lot less work <lilyp>But then everything changed when the firmware attacked <GNUtoo>And it's not theorical, it has been done at least once... <futurile>dlowe: they are DFSG compatible - and I'm sure if you asked a Debian person they would think they represent free software just as well <Altadil>futurile: I think there’s a confusion between DFSG and FSDG, unfortunately ^^ <Altadil>A pity that the two names are so close <ieure>dlowe, Disagree. Debian is the most Free Softwarey classic Linux distro, has the DFSG etc, calls itself GNU/Linux, etc. The notion of "very good distribution" honestly didn't really exist at the time -- I was there. <futurile>Altadil: true - I actually don't understand the difference between those two for sure - I actually try and steer clear of these sorts of conversations heh <ieure>It *was* good, but didn't become excellent until the 2.0-2.2 era, when it got apt. <dlowe>ieure: well, there was slackware too, which is what I was using at the time <ieure>dlowe, "Better than 1990s Slackware" is an extremely low bar. <Altadil>futurile: as far as I understand, the DFSG is the practical criteria for free software use by debian, and from which the open-source definition was derived. The GNU FSDG are the criteria specifically for a distro to meet the stringent requirements of the FSF (it goes beyond juste beeing free) <ieure>dlowe, Slackware was my very first Linux. <dlowe>there were so many similar arguments about winmodem binary blobs :( <GNUtoo>btw, are the tests documented somewhere? I'm not looking how marionette works but rather the bigger picture, how they are run, why it works without needing to download things during the check phase, etc. <ieure>dlowe, I was reflecting recently that we live in a total WinModem world. Thing is, back then you could just... not buy a WinModem. Or replace the one that came in your machine with a proper one. But many modern laptops have non-free WiFi soldered to the motherboard these days. <dlowe>ieure: I think the equivalent is plugging a usb wifi device into a port <GNUtoo>Also if I add a test inside a file (like with '(list %test-installed-os)'), is guix build -f ./file.scm supposed to work? <dlowe>about as inconvenient as plugging a standalone modem into a serial port <futurile>sorry GNUtoo no idea how the testing works - take it there's nothing specific in the manual - nothing in the mailing list archive? <GNUtoo>I was wondering if there was a maintainer manual or something similar <GNUtoo>or some comments inside the source code <cancername>Hi! When I run e.g. "icecat", I get /gnu/store/[...]/libepoxy.so.0: file too short. How can I redownload the package? <futurile>GNUtoo: no, just the main maual - I read the 'API' part alot - search the mailing list archive using the public-inbox location - that's the best way I've found so far <GNUtoo>Though I had that myself at some point, and it didn't work for me <GNUtoo>The issue was probably that my filesystem was too much corrupted and the new things I installed were also corrupted... <GNUtoo>If you use ext4 you can also configure when it does the fsck with tune2fs, and running fsck often help avoid corruptions and help repair them when they happen <cancername>GNUtoo: after running and re-running "sudo guix gc --verify=contents,repair", the hashes stay the same and do not change from the first invocation <GNUtoo>ok, then I don't know, maybe other people knows <GNUtoo>What filesystem do you use for the store? <GNUtoo>If you have some time you could try to bugreport <cancername>GNUtoo: ext4, but now I'm running "guix system reconfigure" and getting 504s, so it's most likely an issue with the substitute server <aitzkora>Is there any mean to know to which package belong (which package produce that derivation in the store) a tree in the store ? <apteryx>old: thanks for trying 'perf mem record'; I was not even using -k <apteryx>couldn't find a resource mentioning what are the exact requirements <futurile>aitzkora: there's options to guix graph that will do that I think <aitzkora>futurile: indeed there is an option with referrers for objects in the store, but my object in a tree (finishing by ...-profile) and that does not work <cancername>so, "/gnu/store/.../libepoxy.so.0.0.0" is empty. when I run "guix gc --verify=contents,repair", it's still empty despte being redownloaded. what's going on? <cancername>"guix build --repair libepoxy" also does nothing <civodul>cancername: what if you add ‘--no-grafts’? <civodul>note that repairing requires substitutes: it works by downloading substitutes <civodul>(there’s no other way if one assumes that the local file system is corrupted) <cancername>I added --no-substitutes after seeing it do nothing the first time <civodul>BTW, that also means that one can only repair things that are substitutable <cancername>I did initially consider fs corruption because I am in the bad habit of shutting my system down improperly, so that might have been the issue, if it wasn't for the fact that after redownloading everything the hashes don't change <janneke>could it be that --cores option is ignored for offload builds? <janneke>and/or is there another way to specify the max number of cores for an offload build (without changing the package definition?) <efraim>janneke: --keep-failed is also ignored <efraim>TIL mips64el in qemu has a fuloong2e as an emulation target <apteryx>which package would provide 'driver/syscall_compat_x86_64.h' ? <slave>Hello! I'm pretty new in GNU/Guix but I have a question. <slave>I've installed xorg-server and mate packages through the package manager. I've also installed xinit, but startx command always fail <slave>It says something like "unable to run server /gnu/store/...xinit/bin/X" <ieure>slave, Please pastebin the full error output you're getting. <ieure>Nothing should be depending on .h files at runtime. <futurile>aitzkora: there's a guix gc command that looks at references/referrers - but I'm guessing at this point <RavenJoad>imagemagick's convert is not behaving correctly when converting an SVG to a PNG. All I get is a blank white square out of convert. If I run convert's delegated inkscape command, I get the right output. Is this a Guix thing? <slave>My error: "xinit: unable to run server /gnu/store/...-xinit-1.4.1/bin/X: no such file or directory. Use the -- option, or make sure that /gnu/store/...-xinit-1.4.1/bin is in your path and that /gnu/store/...-xinit-1.4.1/bin/X is a program or a link to the right type of server for your display." <lfam>slave: The xinit / startx workflow is not very simple on Guix. Not like on old-school distros <lfam>Thanks nat-418, not relevant here <lfam>If you want to easily switch between an X environment and a console, I recommend configuring your system to boot into X, and then switching to another TTY when you want to use the console <lfam>My primary computer (a laptop) is Debian+Guix and I like the startx workflow. But I think my suggestion gives you something similar, unless you really need to avoid running X at boot <slave>How I do this? How I run a xorg-server in Guix? <ieure>nat-418, It's not dying because it isn't starting. <slave>lfam I'm not using Debian, I'm using Guix System :( <lfam>I don't recommend using X from Guix in that case <lfam>I thought you were using Guix System <lfam>I think you can probably make it work if you really want but you'd be choosing to do it the hard way <slave>Hard way? Like *really hard* way? <lfam>Like I said, install X via Debian's tools <ieure>lfam, How are they supposed to do that when they don't run Debian? <ieure>slave, The normal GUI setup in Guix is to use a greeter and log in that way; logging into a console and starting X from there seems to be finicky, since you're not the first person I've seen have issues with it. <lfam>Oh, I totlaly misunderstood what they wrote <ieure>slave, Maybe you just need to install the X server? <Altadil>slave: Did you install the mate desktop service? <dariqq>there is #68289 currently open for a startx-like command <slave>dariqq So startx isn't currently available? <slave>peanuts I cannot understand at all this manual entry <slave>No way I talked to a bot lol <slave>Ok! Now I'm installing it. Thx <3 <slave>Now it says: "_XSERVTransmkdir: Owner of /tmp/.X11-unix should be set to root" <coyote>i dont know why every time I try to use sx, mouse/keyboard input just doesn't work for me <Kolev>Franciman: Posted my issues to bug-guix and help-guix. <freakingpenguin>Does anyone know the motivation for specifying --localstatedir=/var and --sysconfdir=/etc when running ./configure? Why not use those values by default when omitted and optionally override them? <FF>Hello everyone! I have a doubt. How do I start an xorg server in Guix System? <FF>I've tried a lot with `xinit` and `startx`, but it always fails. <Kolev>FF: Yeah, startx doesn't work on Guix. I forget the workaround, though. <FF>I installed Guix System without marking GNOME, KDE or XFCE during installation <FF>Kolev Really? That sounds really bad. But is there another solution? <Kolev>FF: If Wayland works on your system, it's as simple as `guix install sway` and `exec sway` in your TTY. <FF>I need a Desktop environment without depending of something like `lightdm` or `gdm` or whatever <Kolev>FF: IIRC a display manager is required for X. <Kolev>Sway uses plain TTY login, no display manager. <FF>Kolev Well, I like Wayland and all, but I still prefer using my LXQt desktop <coyote>FF: adding `(service xorg-server-service-type)` to your services, and the `sx` package, should give you a startx-ish experience <FF>Isn't possible Guix don't support it <FF>Sorry, I'm pretty new in Guix. How do I make this work? I mean, what file should I modify then? <freakingpenguin>Is there a reason using a display manager with lxqt-desktop-service-type isn't an option? Does lxqt not show? <FF>freakingpenguin I cannot start `startx` or `xinit`, it doesn't work <FF>I tried installing `xorg-server` and still don't working <FF>Kolev: coyote thanks! I will test it rn <zilti>What is the go-to way to run programs that are in libexec? E.g. xdg-desktop-portal; it should to my knowledge get started automatically, but for some reason that does not happen for me. I see it is in a libexec dir of a package, but I'd like to be able to find and start it without having to run `find` in `/gnu/store`. <FF>Kolev, coyote It works! But for some reason I cannot use anything. My clicks and other inputs aren't working (including `ctrl` + `alt` + `F2`). I'm using GNU/Guix in VM (GNOME Boxes) <henrix>Hi! I'm new to guix (the OS), and I'd like to ask a question regarding gnus and dovecot: <henrix>I've been using gnus configured with several nnimap in my gnus, each one with its own "/usr/libexec/dovecot/imap ..." as the nnimap-shell-program <henrix>What's the best way to do this in guix? The dovecot imap expects a config in /etc/dovecot/dovecot.conf. Shall I create one? <wigust>henrix: can you use dovecot-service-type which creates the config and starts the dovecot as a service? <henrix>wigust: that'd work I guess. But I was trying to keep a similar setup to the one I used: each email account I have would run it's own imap shell prog <coyote>FF: you said you installed `xorg-server' <coyote>and use the xorg-server-service-type service <FF>coyote: Ok I will try <wigust>henrix: you can create the config by hand or as i guess generate it with procedures from dovecot-service-type. I also a dovecot and gnus user with multiple email accounts, but i use tcp and a single dovecot instance without shelling to it <FF>coyote: Should I use `herd`? What do you mean with `service`? <FF>Sorry, I'm coming from Debian <FF>I wanna learn how to use this distro but this seems a bit tricky actually <henrix>wigust: yeah, I'll probably migrate to a similar setup. Thanks for your feedback. I was just wondering what people usually do, as I _think_ my setup isn't uncommon <FF>coyote, wigust: Hmm... But I cannot find `xorg-server-service-type` with `herd` <wigust>FF: before the service will be available to control via a 'herd' command, you need to add the service in the config.scm (Guix system configuration file) and run 'guix system reconfigure' <wigust>also you could list current defined services with 'sudo herd status' <FF>wigust: Where is `config.scm`? <seasharp>You can also use `guix describe` and follow the .scm symlinks to reproduce it <seasharp>If that sentence didnt make enough sense the guix describe docs should help <FF>Oh gosh. So I need to append `xorg-server-service-type` in `services`? <seasharp>Sorry I'm missing context. If youre looking for an xorg server as a shepherd managed service then yes <seasharp>Provided your system doesn't already have a display manager (is that the correct term?) <FF>seasharp: Yes! You're correct <FF>I'm trying to use `startx` <seasharp>Hmm. Systemcrafters probably has some repos with example system config files that will work with xorg? <seasharp>Or you could use the guixsd live image or VM and see if that has the xorg server configured with defaults <dumbmf>Hi all, how can I find out which package provides which binary? Specifically I want to see where rsh is. <seasharp>Hell, for that matter its probably in the monorepo <dumbmf>freakingpenguin: Is that only for installed packages? <seasharp>guix edit <package> would perhaps let you investigate the package outputs <dumbmf>Oo that's cool. Where's the source for that page? <dumbmf>gabber: Also, thank you. That was the package <gabber>the locate command is relatively new, no? <ieure>dumbmf, Link to source is in the footer. <freakingpenguin>Hmm, guix search rsh scores relevance of inetutils pretty low even though rsh is a word in the description and not part of another word. I'd have thought it would score that higher. <seasharp>The number of times a git clone of the guix monorepo (--depth 1) has answered my question is perhaps too high, not sure about other folks though <seasharp>Maybe I just dont know enough about the SD tools to solve that problem without the external git ref <ieure>rsh is horribly insecure and really shouldn't be used for anything. <ieure>Hopefully it's being used to log into a 1990s Sun workstation or something. <dumbmf>ieure: lol no. I'm just trying to fetch the OpenBSD cvs repo and it defaulted to rsh <dumbmf>I'm not familiar with cvs, so I didn't know how to default to ssh instead <civodul>cbaines: /gnu/store/2fhw7rgvgkhmpmiavlwljsixsaam40lx-nss-3.98.0.drv fails to build on bayfront (1 test failure…) <civodul>is it built on one of the build machines, so we could copy it? <jab>well I'm back to updating my guix server... <jab>It looks like it might actually be working nowish.