IRC channel logs
2023-06-25.log
back to list of logs
<mirai>quite a big set of changes and idk if the author is willing to continue further efforts should changes be requested <spacecadet[m]>I'm attempting to reach out to the author at the moment too, things got a bit heated in the discussion but I'm hoping he's willing to give it another go <juliana[m]>browsing the thread history, it seems there are licensing issues as well. that will almost certainly not fly. <mirai>in the very least, I'd expect a system test here <mirai>otherwise there's no easy way to test it <mirai>with either a loop device, nbdkit or $THING, as long it can be verified that the thing works <mirai>not ideal but perhaps it can be relegated into a channel if licensing is of concern? <spacecadet[m]>The licensing issues are - to my laymans knowledge - not a big deal. As long as the zfs module code is distributed as source and compiled locally everything's cool. the CDDL is still a FOSS license. <mirai>all are overridable within (os …) <spacecadet[m]>yeah, unfortunate, I'm hoping we can all let bygones be bygones for the sake of the project. I have run a test system with some of the services replicated, but ideally future patches would support home and root on zfs as well, which is not as simple. <mirai>In the event ZFS on Guix (upstream) turns out to be untenable it can probably still be supported through a channel, I don't think there's any fundamental incompatibility with the Guix codebase itself <spacecadet[m]>That's good to hear, while it would be nice to have everything bundled together I'd take a zfs channel <anemofilia>herd: error: /run/user/1000/shepherd/socket: Connection refused <anemofilia>Some user services are also failing to start on boot, like xmodmap and redshift <whereiseveryone>civodul: leaking doesn't sound good. Does anyone know a postgres plumber that can patch that leak? <tao[m]1>What should provide org.freedesktop.portal.Flatpak that I'm missing? I have xdg-desktop-portal-gtk <tao[m]1>Portal call failed: The name org.freedesktop.portal.Flatpak was not provided by any .service files <geri>is there some way to avoid having to escape quotation marks in quile? <geri>like some macro that escapes everything automatically <jpoiret>tao[m]1: do you also have xdg-desktop-portal? <sozuba>I am installing guix, and doing it really slow so i can read and understand the guix environment/philosophy and wow, reading more and more about the features, well thought out setups, etc are awesome. The documentation is immense, easy, in detail and well structured. Kudos to the team, contributers and everyone making this great <geri>jpoiret: yes, i want to create an inline shell script and escaping all of the quotation marks is annoying <sozuba>guix shell, guix gc, guix lint (especially for CVE), i can go on. <geri>rn thinking of using separate files as a workaround <jpoiret>system* takes one guile arg per argv, so you don't need to use quotes as much <jpoiret>ie (system* "cat" "my file with spaces in it.txt") <geri>i create a temporary package that creates an executable shell script for me from a string <geri>though most of my scripts don't need no templating and i could probably insert them as is <geri>sozuba: im playing around with guix in a vm rn and it feels so much more polished, well-documented and hackable than nix <sozuba>geri: a few months to a year ago, i tried guix in a VM environment, and i didn;t have the patience to go through it, i just checked it and triedother optioins, none of them are free/libre as guix is.So itook a good look at guix and now i am tryign it out in real/on machine environment. And its awesome. <denys[m]>Hello. I want to tweak the installer script. I understand that to try it, I need to build a system image.. <geri>i've been hacking on it my whole weekend now with no signs of slowing down haha <janneke>geri: guix has nice support for creating guile scripts, why use a shell script? <geri>denys[m]: can't you just make a random vm, save state and reload it after each try running the installer? <geri>janneke: could say "for legacy reasons" <geri>i enjoy lisp a lot but shell is home <denys[m]>I cloned the guix repo locally on a guixsd laptop, fetched keyring origin, ran bootstrap and make like the documentation says <denys[m]>geri: I'll try that but I want to train basic concepts first <geri>oh, could you send me the link, it might be useful later denys[m] <denys[m]>So, where I'm stuck is this command: ./pre-inst-env guix system image -t iso9660 gnu/system/install.scm <denys[m]>It says "Git error: cannot locate remote-tracking branch 'origin/keyring'" <denys[m]>The command I had run to get that branch is: git fetch origin keyring:keyring <geri>can you send the link to this documentation page denys[m] <geri>janneke: im curious what guile scripts look like, want to show yours? <jpoiret>denys[m]: you should create a new local branch keyring tracking the remote origin/keyring <jpoiret>what do you want to work on in the installer? <jpoiret>building a new install image each time is going to be very time and space consuming <Bionicbabelfish> I’ve tried extending shepherd-root-service-type twice (i.e., for both the container and the pod) as well as adding both to the same service-extension to no avail. Could anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks! <janneke>geri: guix has many scripts, etc/teams.scm[.in] is a recent one <tao[m]1>jpoiret not explicitly but looking at the package definition for xdg-desktop-portal-gtk it depends on xdg-desktop-portal <jpoiret>tao[m]1: you need to also have it installed <jpoiret>Bionicbabelfish: is the error listed in your org file the one you're getting? <Bionicbabelfish>Jpoiret: yeah that’s the one when I add the two services to the same extension <jpoiret>also, you could very well have both the forkexec *and* writing the pid file in the same shepherd service <Bionicbabelfish><jpoiret> also, you could very well have both the forkexec *and* writing <— yeah that sounds like the neatest way. In this case the docker container instantiated by an scm wrapper script, but if O append any code to that it never gets executed <denys[m]>jpoiret: ok, trying "git switch keyring && git switch master", that changed timestamps so the new attempt is compiling guix again <denys[m]>My intended change to the installer is restoring the Cyrillic console font in new installations depending on the locale, as I wrote on the mailing list a week ago <jpoiret>ah, right, I planned on replying to this but I didn't have any internet while reading my mail then <geri>janneke: embedding elisp in guile, amazing :D <geri>pretty much all of configs ive ever written are made to be as portable as possible, using guix home is really against it but its too cool not to try <jpoiret>I suggest starting a fixed VM, sharing your guix folder with it using 9p and then running the installer from there with `$(./pre-inst-env guix build -e '((@ (gnu installer) installer-program))')` iirc <denys[m]>Oh, that can also make edit iterations much faster than building a system image? <geri>guix made me realize i could write a single shell script that creates all the other dotfiles of mine programmatically, so it doesn't matter if the program doesn't support loops or variables <geri>it'd be portable but it wouldn't be able to install packages so i decided against it for now <jpoiret>geri: guile is quite portable though? <jpoiret>Bionicbabelfish: do you know why that is the case? <jpoiret>is that because you don't use '-d' to run the container? <jpoiret>right, you could start it in the background and wait for it to be up, then write the pid <Bionicbabelfish>yes probably, if I run with -d (I’ll definitely try it out) I will have to find a different way to get the logs into syslog I suspect <geri>guile needs to be installed though, shell is always there <geri>tho depending on the definition of portability emacs lisp is more portable than shell script cause it runs on literally any os <geri>that's a really weird epiphany i had there <geri>Aurora_v_kosmose: hey :D <geri>what does "no code for module (module identifier)" error mean? <denys[m]>Still the same git error about missing tracking remote. On another computer it's a different git error, "object not found - no match for id (9edb3f6...)". Will retry in a week when I have enough traffic and time for a clean clone again <geri>thing is it says it about a module i can load in repl <jpoiret>denys[m]: you should go into ~/.cache/guix/checkouts/, find the checkout with remote your local tree, and run git fetch origin/keyring inside it <geri>jpoiret: i just found out you can (symbol->string '#{abusing extended reader syntax}#) to do what i asked about <geri>if there's a non-closed " mark it's gonna break the thing <geri>so like vim config's syntax would mess it up pretty hard <sozuba>The target for 'looks device mapping' is 'guix' because if i had to manually unlock the command i give is 'cryptsetup luksOpen /dev/sda2 guix'. Was it right? <geri>i'd test it in a vm before trying <sozuba>geri: that's a good suggesiton, but i have my deice wiped and i don;t have permissions for VM use from the admin, in the system that I am typing this from. <geri>if you have guix installed you could try to do guix init onto the wiped drive <sozuba>geri: thats what i amabout to do. I wanted to clarify before I do that. To know if i've understood that scheming correctly? <sozuba>geri: i don;t have guix installed yet, I amabout to install ona frestly formatted and partitioned system <geri>just keeping you busy until experienced guys can answer :D <sozuba>geri: that's very kind of you. Thank you <Bionicbabelfish>jpoiret: the "-d" solution works! now to find a good way to pre-pull the docker images so that that doesn't cause shepherd to time-out <jpoiret>sozuba: didn't double check the uuids but lgtm <geri>how does using uuid's in system config work if the system hasn't been created yet and there's no uuid's? <geri>will it create partitions and give them those uuid's? <sozuba>geri: i created the partitionas alredy and i am installing the manual way <jpoiret>btw geri we try on here to use more gender-neutral terms to help make it more inclusive <jpoiret>`guix system` doesn't do any partitioning, you're supposed to do that yourself <jpoiret>the graphical installer does it before generating the config <mirai>nckx: Can you look into #64271 since you've recently submitted some changes for opensmtpd? <nckx>Might just be a language barrier but 'opensmtpd doesn't depend on libasr, so bundles a copy of it' is whut. <mirai>yeah, I did reread that part at least twice <nckx>Probably just a language thing. Sure, I'll take a look when I get back. <mirai>or perhaps its an oversight from rewriting the sentence (possibly multiple times) <nckx>The libressl comment was accurahe when I wrote it. <nckx>But was written in a way that was supposed to be future-proof 😛 <mirai>(also a small nudge on the nginx+mympd patches) <lambdanil>I was wondering, why are there no mirrors for Guix substitutes? <sozuba>The first line of the config is usualy (use-modules (gnu)) or (use-modules (gnu) (gnu system nss) (guix utils)) Where can i find the predefined modules? <mirai>sozuba: you can add the imports as you go <sozuba>mirai: yes, but is there a lit of modules i can choose from? A list <sozuba>I am only going with gnu here, but i am curious as to what other pre-defined modules exist <mirai>what I do is have a guix checkout <sozuba>I kept re reading the manual but couldn't find any <sozuba>mirai: is guix checkout same as guix describe? <mirai>the guix modules (gnu …), (guix …) are the ones in the repository <nckx>lambdanil: Searching for 'sjtug guix mirror' should give you another one. <mirai>sozuba: regarding checkout, yes it should match since your local guix doesn't know of the future <mirai>in practice, you can simply use the latest checkout provided you do a guix pull <nckx>Be aware that a 'mirror' asking you to add a signing key is not mirroring (only) official substitutes. <lambdanil>cbaines: Oh I see, that's interesting. The mirrors aren't really advertised anywhere so I wasn't aware of their existence, thank you. <ragreenburg[m]>I installed Guix as a package manager on top of Arch and was hoping to add all the packages I have on Arch so I can easily reproduce the setup. Though what happens if I install a package via Guix that is already installed via pacman? Such as Awesome. <sozuba>mirai: thank you. The contents in the link barely made sens to me. How do people figure out the name of the pre-dfined modules they want to add to use-module? Other tahn using guix checkout <lambdanil>ragreenburg[m]: Guix packages are installed in their own path, they won't conflict with Arch packages <lilyp>They won't conflict on their own – they can still shadow Arch packages in $PATH <mirai>what's within that export list is what you're free to use when writing your config.scm <ragreenburg[m]>Thanks! I was hoping that'd be the case but also didn't want to brick my WM. <lilyp>Guix also instruments the warning Guile prints when encountering an undefined variable. <mirai>there's also the Guile modules such as (ice-9 match) and *some* of the SRFIs (srfi srfi-1), you can read more on the Guile Manual <lilyp>Assuming correct spelling, you will get a nice hint as to where it is. <lilyp>The official answer is something like "guix show" btw. which can point you directly to the source. <lilyp>ragreenburg[m]: even if you brick your WM, you can `guix package --roll-back' to the point before; luxury that Arch doesn't give you <ragreenburg[m]>Is there a way to add arguments when installing packages? I'm looking to install emacs-next but was hoping for it to compile with JSON support. <lambdanil>ragreenburg[m]: yes, that is typically achieved by using package transformations <sozuba>mirai: thank you again.I guess that's a start for me.But it would have been great if there is a list of available modules to be used in use-modules, use-package-modules and use-service-modules in the wiki/handbook or seperate document to easily look for and choose. <mirai>There's probably a way to generate a list of exported procedures via a script, I'm sure some clever guile trick or regex sophistry should be able to do it <lilyp>IIUC json.el is already a part of 28 – am I missing something? <lambdanil>you can find which packages a module provides like so: guix package --list-available | grep 'gnu/packages/gnome' <mirai>ACTION *mumbling* something something ice-9 match + read <Guest28>Hey, I wonder if I could use GNU Guix as the OS for my uncle. Basically my intentions would be to setup it once and never touch it again. I wonder, is it stable enough to run with GNOME without ever touching it to magically break? <sozuba>lambdanil: thank you. That's nice :) <Guest28>I use Guix but not GNOME. I am a little bit worried because GNOME works with systemd and Guix needs to maintain for compatibility with elogind <bjc>i would not recommend guix to people who aren't pretty technical. it's too weird and too much stuff is at least a bit janky <singpolyma>IMO guix system isn't really intended for users who aren't able to deal with rellback after breakage <singpolyma>If they never run updates but you do that part, then probably it's fine <Guest28>Well, at least Guix has rollbacks. My 2nd option would be Fedora but if something breaks I can't simply do a rollback <lambdanil>Guest28: I'd recommend looking into Silverblue/openSUSE MicroOS for that task <bjc>silverblue should be ok, from what i've heard, but i've never used it myself <singpolyma>Guest28: for sure. If you'll do the admin, then GUI, is maybe fine and you can do rollbacks <lilyp>yeah, if fedora is your 2nd option, I'd definitely go for silverblue <bjc>or, just like, pop_os or something that's meant for non-tinkerers <singpolyma>If you want them to auto update then I'd use something more stable <lilyp>though of course it depends a little on how comfortable your uncle is with the command line <lilyp>since that's the main way of interacting with guix, it's also the biggest barrier imho <sozuba>what's the difference between installing systemwide packages through use-package-modules, like 'use-package-modules screen' to installing systewide packages through (packages (append (list screen)%base-packages))? <Guest28>He shouldn't do anything on the system. Not even updating. <lilyp>things can magically break when doing bigger updates, but we only do them rarely for gnome <lilyp>trust me, I'm in the gnome team <lilyp>in that case aside from hardware nothing ought to randomly break <lilyp>though Guix does give him a slightly larger playground than say debian, where the key to installing packages is gated behind sudo <Guest28>He won't do anything on the system except browsing the internet <bjc>sozuba: ‘use-package-modules’ just imports symbols, as if you'd added ‘(gnu packages …)’ to the ‘use-modules’ line. it won't add them to your system <lambdanil>honestly I'd go with something like Linux Mint in that case <Guest28>well I just thought Guix would be more reliable, since lets say I visit him and update the system and it breaks, I don't need to troubleshoot <sozuba>bjc: Thanks you. But what does importing symbols mean? debug symbols? what is its use case? <lambdanil>sozuba: the symbols are the package definitions <bjc>sozuba: if you need to refer to the package variable directly, then its useful. for instance if you need to use ‘(file-append some-package "/path")’ <lambdanil>when you add packages to the package list you'll need to have the definitions imported <lambdanil>though I believe specification->package actually doesn't need the modules <bjc>‘specification->package’ does it for you <mirai>(specification->packages '("tmux" "htop" …)) <lambdanil>mirai: damn, you can do that? I'd just map specifications->package over a list <Guest28>okay, just to be sure. Lets say that I made a Guix config in a VM and everything works as expected. If I pin channels I would get 1:1 the same system if I install it on bare metal as in the vm? (only hardware would change in other words) <bjc>you need it there, because you're using the ‘screen’ variable <bjc>you could use ‘(specification->package "screen")’ (note the quotes) and you would no longer need to import it <sozuba>bjc: sounds cool, i'll look at that, any docs refering to this specification->package "package"? link please? <bjc>i really hate texinfo <bjc>i wish gnu could pull itself out of 1983 and realize that printed manuals are something no one wants <janneke>bjc: you probably don't use emacs? documentation in a browser is horror, imho <bjc>i use info, and providing a link to that for other people is a non-starter <bjc>texinfo's browser output is awful <lambdanil>pulling up the function/record definition in Emacs is faster than opening the manual for me <bjc>i can find it with geiser fast enough. but that's not good for giving to other people. neither is an info node <janneke>just saying that texinfo may suck, but all alternative i've seen are worse <bjc>texinfo, for a programmer's api reference, is just about the worst. man pages are better, ime, and that's a low bar <bjc>just about anything that can autogenerate docs from comments is better, since those tools will at least automate cross-referencing, type information (when available), an index, documentation hierarchy, function signatures, etc <janneke>we have different experiences, but then, info is great if you use emacs <bjc>texinfo makes you do all of that by hand and the output is basically inadequate almost 100% of the time <bjc>but, yes, at least you can go through it in emacs. that's not enough of a win for me to look past everything else <mirai>it's alright as a markup for “simple” docs <mirai>but once you need more advanced features or add additional semantical information then things start to look ugly <bjc>for instance: in emacs, if you look up ‘specfication->package’ in the guix index, you get the paragraph in the section i linked. there is *no* programmer reference <mirai>I think it would make sense to split/have two manuals: a regular/user one and a programmer/developer one <bjc>i agree. i think texinfo's biggest problem is that it tries to act as both a programmer reference and general documentation. for making book-style documents (which, again, it's 2023), it's ok. as a programmer's reference it's awful <bjc>perldoc cracked this nut decades ago <sozuba>If i don't use "use-service-modules networking) in the config, my installed system wouldn't have networking right? <lilyp>not quite, but it becomes significantly more painful to declare services from the networking category <bjc>whether or not your system has a capability has nothing to do with what modules get imported. the only thing module imports do is allow guile to resolve symbols <bjc>* not 100% accurate, but close enough for most purposes <lilyp>if you don't want to have a service, you need to actually remove it from your config <lilyp>either by deleting the relevant part (if you included it yourself) or by using modify-services (if it's part of %base-services or %desktop-services) <bjc>i'd suggest trying to learn guile and scheme, since they're pretty much pre-requisites for doing anything but trivial modifications to your configuration <lilyp>note that "deleting the internet" style deals do void your warranty :) <sozuba>lilyp: so,such things only matter if i want to ssh service, then i have to use (use-service-modules networking ssh), if i don;twant anyspecial service, but just basic networking needs, then i can skip the line? <sozuba>bjc: oh i will definitely learn guile and scheme, but my way of initial lerning usually invloves a mix of some documentations / guides /man pages and some actual config done, without which its hard for my brain to either understand or remember stuffs :D <sozuba>bjc: and regarding the symbols part, you already mentioned it, and my brain is stilltrying to understand it. I do get the overall picture with symbols, but as per my previous comments, it would take some practical configs and system build sbefore i can actually understand the crucial stuffs. :) <bjc>yeah, i work the same way. i guess i should have been less binary in my speech. it's more like: the questions you're currently asking have to do with how the scheme and guile language works, so your answers will be found in understanding them. it's not a guix thing <sozuba>bjc: i did try the primer privided for these langauges by the manual, i also read a third party docuexplaining thigs much simple and better. I understood a lot of key things, but still have a lot to get to :) <sozuba>glad to know i am not just a wierdo to learn things this way <sozuba>bjc: could you please confim if I am right or wrong in my previous comment that i tagged lilyp in, regarding "such things matter only if i want an ssh service........." <sozuba>I can re post the message if you want. <bjc>those things only matter if you're going to reference a symbol provided by those modules <bjc>so, in the case of the ‘ssh’ service module, that is if you need to use ‘openssh-configuration’ or other things exported by it <bjc>you can use ‘guix system edit $service’ (eg: guix system edit openssh) to see the actual guile source <sozuba>so,for exmaple if i use (packages (append (list ssh) %base-packages)) ->if that's what referenceing a symbol is, then i should add the line right? sorry if i am ebing annoyingly dumb. <bjc>at the top of those files, you'll see the ‘#:export’ expression, which will show you all the things you'll get access to if you use ‘(use-service-module ssh)’ <bjc>in that expression, all of ‘packages’, ‘append’, ‘list’, ‘ssh’, and ‘%base-packages’ are symbols. ie, everything that ain't a parenthesis <bjc>they all come from different modules, most of which are automatically imported for you. but ‘ssh’, notably, isn't. you need to import that yourself from ‘(gnu packages ssh)’ <bjc>if you use ‘guix edit openssh’ from the command-line, you'll see where that symbol is defined and all the source code for it <sozuba>bjc: ah got it, makes sense. Thank you, sure will check it the guix system edit $service. <bjc>in fact, ‘ssh’ *isn't* a package. you probably mean ‘openssh’ <bjc>‘guix search’ will search for packages by name and give you information about them, including their source code location <sozuba>okay going to install my first proper, barebone guix system:D <sozuba>guix system init /mnt/guix/etc/config.scm /mnt/guix <sozuba>already an error, let me check what;s wrong <mirai>probably a silly question but is systemd-journald decoupled from systemd-the-init? i.e. is it valid for a guix service to have an option to log to "journal" <sozuba>Guix installation gotinterrupted while installing glibc, saying corrupt input -> guix system: error: corrupt input while restoring archive from #<closed: file 7f57630b0d20> | full error output -> https://termbin.com/qehg. Is this network error? I know it says if this persists i shoul use '--no-substitutes',but i want to understand the nature of the problem before proceeding, as a part of learning <sozuba>Follow up question, if i run the installation again with 'guix system init /mnt/guix/etc/config.scm /mnt/guix' as before,will it continue from where the process excited? <sozuba>okay installatoncontinued,looks like it wasnetwork error <lilyp>sozuba the only really messy part is the final step of copying everything and then rebooting <sozuba>lilyp: why do you say so? what did you face? :D <sozuba>btw, installation commpleted and system boots into grub rescue, hahaha <lilyp>let's just say I rebooted more than once to get it right a couple of times <takev[m]>When I installed on my machine, it kept failing while saying that it was out of space. Turns out that all the failed kernel installs in my gentoo system filled up some bios storage on the mobo or something, lol. <sozuba>so luks2 doesn't work with grub? even with pbkdf2? <sozuba>takev[m]: filled up your bios storage? eh? efi entires you meant? <sozuba>the bug is open, and the comment -> I'd suggest that we instead add a warning that `/boot/` must be <sozuba>unencrypted for LUKS2+GRUB to work for now, possibly pointing to this <sozuba>hasn't been implemented. Would have been great if this warningwas added in the manual. Beause the manual specifies ecrypting with luks2 <sozuba>i am going to convert luks2 to luks1 and see if this works <takev[m]>The issue I had was not really related to that bug. More of a strange circumstance that most would not really run into. <sozuba>convert to luks1,still falls to grub rescue <sozuba>trying to cryptomount the disk though livedvd throws 'error:cipher serpent isn't available' <sozuba>I am goingtore-encrypt with the default cipher and see if that's the problem <denys[m]>jpoiret: thank you, it helped! After fetching the keyring remote in both the cloned repo and the matching cache directory, installer does build and I can work with it <mirai>but some of the KDFs might not work with grub <mirai>in any case, it will be atrociously slow to unlock the drive <mirai>if I'm not mistaken, this is because the system isn't running at its full speed during this very early stage <mirai>no idea, it's been a long while since I did a luks setup with guix <mirai>I think I followed the instructions as presented in the manual though <tao[m]1>Any Guixers running Guix System on an MNT Reform? 