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<vagrantc>i haven't put it into full-time use ... i run it off solar when i have some spare electrons
<lfam>I don't know of any other platforms that can run a GNU userspace
<nckx>ellysone[m]: Please use <>. It will hopefully become the default soon.
<fruit-loops>"Sending a Patch Series (GNU Guix Reference Manual)"
<vagrantc>i did the work to enable a linux-libre kernel for aarch64 on the apm mustang ... and maybe an overdrive1000 ?
<lfam>Well, I'm wrong!
<fruit-loops>"Ampere ALTRA 64bit Arm Workstation"
<lfam>Two optoins
<mirai>I can confirm it works just as well
<lfam>We are running Overdrives and Honeycombs
<vagrantc>there was an apm mustang briefly hooked up to build farm ...
<lechner>lfam / Hi, i did not write that the FSF owns "the" Guix trademark. It owns a Guix trademark (or maybe civodul does), namely the one for GNU Guix. Someone else owns another and even registered with the USPTO, but they are two distinct products, and while both are operating systems I am unaware of any confusion between consumers
<lechner>lfam / this would be too slow also?
<tower>appearently i was banned from parabola because a guy told the mod so
<tower>lmao use that info as however you want
<tower>also if i wanted to fork parabola, what should i know
<guixfren>how do I set a specific version of an input?
<guixfren>I need gcc 12 not 10
<guixfren>tried setting the input to gcc@12.2.0
<guixfren>but it throws ubound variable
<lechner>gcc-12 ?
<fruit-loops>"guix/gcc.scm at master · guix-mirror/guix · GitHub"
<guixfren>yeah that's it
<lfam>ACTION mistake
<gnucode>nckx: if you charged $10 per hour for your labor maintaining some of the build much would you charge the guix project each month?
<lechner>per build machine?
<lechner>f-droid has Nix-on-Droid
<fruit-loops>"GitHub - t184256/nix-on-droid: Nix-enabled environment for your Android device."
<whereiseveryone>lechner: wdyt of making an invidious bot?
<whereiseveryone>when someone posts a yt link it converts it to the most highly available invidious instance
<lechner>whereiseveryone / its probably fifty lines in Guile if you can help determine "the most available instance"
<whereiseveryone>lechner: like this:
<fruit-loops>"invidious-redirect/main.js at master · iv-org/invidious-redirect · GitHub"
<whereiseveryone>life hack
<whereiseveryone>that api
<tower>i hate vpn blocks
<tower>also android is nonfree fyi
<whereiseveryone>so is nong**x
<lechner>even lineageos?
<whereiseveryone>tower how bout
<whereiseveryone>now you can cleanse your oneplus 6 A6000
<whereiseveryone>and bear your wifi dongle cross
<tower>i exited the phone rabbit hole and its been a while, there are some inevidible consequences having a phone
<whereiseveryone>i just use
<fruit-loops>"JMP: Your phone number on every device"
<whereiseveryone>they didn't hire me to advertise btw
<whereiseveryone>$2.99 / month
<whereiseveryone>works with gajim
<whereiseveryone>now you can text your grandma from mcabber
<whereiseveryone>they allow international calls/text also
<tower>whats the point of having a distro if you cant contact the community for your concerns?
<whereiseveryone>not sure what you mean there, seems unrelated to before. is that for someone else?
<whereiseveryone>if not you're going to have to unpack that one for me ,@
<gnucode>whereiseveryone: I prefer dino for
<whereiseveryone>cool, ideally i'd switch to a terminal one like profanity or mcabber but I haven't yet and am stuck with gajim
<whereiseveryone>on my phone I use conversations
<whereiseveryone>but I've been meaning to switch to the fork that singpolyma released
<apteryx>for what it's worth, I use jami with a SIP to connect with the plain old telephone service (POTS)
<tower>non free spyware
<oriansj>tower: So if I understand your request correctly, you want us to give you the answer to the question of how to have a free (as in freedom) phone with no spyware installed. Is that correct?
<whereiseveryone>apteryx: are there any hiccups with jami currently? in other words, is everything up to date and great?
<whereiseveryone>last time I tried jami I got stuck in a jam
<nckx>ACTION rimshot.flac
<lfam_>You probably need one of these phones:
<fruit-loops>"Vintage Push Button Dial Phone STC 1987 Beige Telecom - Etsy Israel"
<mirai>will a telegraph or a microcontroller powered DTMF encoder + microphone do?
<whereiseveryone>lfam: that's a rare find
<lfam_>I just googled "90s phone" ;)
<whereiseveryone>nice find nonetheless
<lfam_>It's actually an 80s phone, but that was most of the 90s
<apteryx>whereiseveryone: up to date yes, about great, it works rather well, I just have an issue with SIP texts at the moment and also sip-related, some file handle leak apparently not reproducible outside Guix
<whereiseveryone>apteryx: k, i'll try again sometime
<mirai>yay, my trim service didn't nuke the drive
<mirai>and it works
<mirai>some extra polish and its good to go for the ML
<nckx>What's the reason for bulk-trimming this way again? There probably is one, I just forgot.
<mirai>guix doesn't have a "fstrimer.timer" / "fstrimer.service"
<mirai>high time it got one
<nckx>No, I mean why do this rather than fs-level discards.
<nckx>Is it just for ‘old’ fs'es or are there advantages?
<mirai>nckx: something something manual discards are better / luks considerations / etc.
<mirai>and excessive trim somehow is bad
<mirai>excessive / frequent
<nckx>ACTION hmms. That's the part that makes me hmm, but I don't have enough ammo for a discussion (no any desire to hurl it at you, friend).
<mirai>I think I read this on
<fruit-loops>"Solid state drive - ArchWiki"
<nckx>One of the Lost Patches I still need to pull from back-up is to actually support LUKS options like ‘discard’.
<winter>Does a mechanism to override any/every reference to a package in (gnu packages) exist? I know package-input-rewriting exists, but that seemingly can only apply to where you can control the initial reference to a package.
<lfam>I don't quite understand what you're asking for, winter. Can you try to clarify it?
<winter>lfam: Let's say I want to make every package in my system (or profile) use a custom version of a library, including transient dependencies. Is there a way to do this without having to add package-input-rewriting to every package reference? (Using p-i-r would also notably only apply in places where I can override what package is being used, which
<winter>may not apply everywhere.)
<lfam>I see
<lfam>Take a look at this manual section:
<fruit-loops>"Package Transformation Options (GNU Guix Reference Manual)"
<lfam>You can pass transformation arguments to `guix package`, and I assume `guix system`
<lfam>If it can't be done for `guix system`, then we should make it possible
<winter>If it is possible for 'guix system' and 'guix package', I think it should also be possible to do the same thing declaratively (in the system configuration file or the package manifest respectively).
<lfam>Of course
<lfam>It's definitely possible to do it in a manifest
<winter>With lots of package-input-rewriting, yeah.
<winter>Because that defines every package
<winter>My main concern is systems, where every package reference may not be able to be controlled.
<winter>(Plus, it's less simple and more verbose than playing with a single list, as you'd have to override Every Single Service Option that lets you define packages to use.)
<winter>I'd try to implement it, but I'd have no clue where to start. I assume you'd have to start with the package loading stuff in gnu/packages.scm
<lfam>In the short term, if I wanted to do it at the system level, I'd fork the Git repo and make my changes in a series of commits that I keep rebased to taste
<lfam>Simple and not much thinking required
<lfam>Your point about manifests misses the package-mapping procedure, if I understand correctly
<lfam>I might have misunderstood
<winter>I mentioned it afterwards, but I said that mapping a single list is obviously possible/easier, so this would really only apply to systems.
<lfam>The best way to get help with this will be on the guix-devel mailing list, IMO
<lfam>A simple way to replace a package throughout the dependency graph, declared in config.scm, would certainly be a popular feature
<winter>I'll post something there, good idea. Even if I can't implement it (right now), it's probably worth getting others' thoughts.
<winter>Speaking of manifests: I'm trying to figure out why both '--file' and '--manifest' exist as arguments to 'guix shell' 🤔 especially since the file argument can apparently resolve to a list of packages, just like manifests...?
<mitchell>`guix --development --file guix.scm`
<mitchell>/guix/guix shell/
<cow_2001>I wish to file a complaint about the guix site's reference manual.
<fruit-loops>"I feel I must come to complain... - YouTube"
<cow_2001>when viewing the page in firefox's reader mode, all code snippets vanish
<cow_2001>talking about these type of pages
<fruit-loops>"Getting Started (GNU Guix Reference Manual)"
<cow_2001>wait a minute! i can just write an email to the webmaster
<jpoiret>winter: -f is typically used on package definitions, while manifests are just manifests
<jpoiret>-f predates -m iirc
<jpoiret>regarding the system package transformation options, I don't see how you could achieve that without introducing some additional state, which I don't think would be a good solution
<apoorv569[m]>mirai: I see, then how to manually mount them?
<tux_life>Hi! Let's say I want to modify a system file, for example to globally change the umask value (on /et/profile I see umask set to 022). How do I proceed?
<sneek>Welcome back tux_life, you have 1 message!
<sneek>tux_life, jpoiret says: documentation for `etc-service-type` is under "Service References"
<Guest48>Hello, I'm going through my first guix install and I am a heavy VM user, at first I thought when I looked at the docs that VM images would be put into the store, but it seems I was mistaken. What is a reasonable size for / the guided partitioner suggests ~600 gigs of my drive which seems like it's overkill. I do occasionally use blender and a
<Guest48>myriad of other apps and on Gentoo I often ran out of space with a 40 gig / partition.
<nckx>Why do you say you were mistaken?
<nckx>And what's the use case for the rest of the drive if you don't use all of it?
<nckx>My stores have always been 100G-200G, but if you GC more often it shouldn't be hard to stay below that.
<nckx>ACTION is not a heavy VM user, but you'd know better than I do how big yours get.
<jpoiret>VM images do get put in the store though
<jpoiret>at least the partitions themselves
<tux_life>Okkkk... Finally I'm able to specify the content of a file in the /etc directory, via "etc-service-type". I am happy! :-) But... what if I want to modify only a part of a file? Let's say I would like to globally change the value of umask. In /etc/profile I see a value of 022. How to change it?
<jpoiret>if you use `guix system image` the whole images also end up in the store, I often just `guix gc` them afterwards
<jpoiret>tux_life: I don't recommend setting a system-wide umask
<jpoiret>or even a non-default umask
<jpoiret>guix won't handle that very well i think, there have been some bug reports in the past
<nckx>jpoiret: Only a kind of VM.
<nckx>Which I think the minority use, but I don't have data.
<jpoiret>tux_life: in general, if something gets into /etc, then there's a guix service putting it there, so you should first find out which one does that and modify its configuration accordingly (if the configuration option is available from guix)
<Guest48>nckx, because I shouldn't need to store my VM disk images in the store?
<Guest48>I can't run the images from the store though?
<nckx>Depends on what you mean, that's why I wanted to know what thought process changed you mind.
<Guest48>Well, I'm not sure I want to keep images in the store, but guix system image seems interesting.
<nckx>A bare-bones guix system VM will create a partition image in the store.
<nckx>That image is 1M.
<Guest48>I will easily bloat my system if I do it that way
<Guest48>I have images I use already
<Guest48>between 20-150 gigs
<tux_life>jpoiret ok, thank you! So... in general, if I don't want to create a file, specifying its entire content, but just want to edit a line, I have to find out which service deals with that particular file. How to do this type of search? Just by reading the manual or is there some other way?
<Guest48>I use snapshots and rysnc for backups
<jpoiret>tux_life: reading the manual, and if you don't find it ... grepping the guix source?
<jpoiret>usually you can find it though
<nckx>Guest48: Those images are just user data, you'd store them wherever you like/did previously. Guix isn't really involved at all IIUC.
<Guest48>I have 3 tb of fast SSD but I'm not sure I want to use like 500 gigs just for copiess of disk images
<jpoiret>you can look at it from another angle: think of what behavior you want to modify, what program/service it's attached to, and then look for that in the manual
<Guest48>I guess I don't understand from skimming the manual I thougth I understood the qcow was in the store
<nckx>It's like saying Debian installs into /usr so you'd have to put your VMs there. Not really.
<nckx>Which part of the manual?
<Guest48>Okay, I wasn't entirely sure, because it didn't make sense to me unless it was taking advantage of the store for images
<Guest48>I guess it was just saying you can download the guix system image into the store
<Guest48>I think I just misunderstood because I was skimming about virtual machines.
<nckx>I *think* the kind of VM you're describing is meant to copy out of the store and used long-term as a writable image.
<nckx>The kind you can download from for example.
<Guest48>I was thinking I would need to make my own similar definitions or something to use the guix vm system.
<Guest48>Anyway, I think you have clarified it.
<Guest48>Thank you.
<nckx>'guix system vm' creates runnable .sh in your store that will boot an operating-system, built by Guix. It's a different mechanism that doesn't really use images at all except to boot. It shares specific store directories with the host (read-only) and has a volatile / by default.
<Guest48>I do install a lot of applications that are large and I don't want to be constantly fighting low disk space like I have on gentoo when I try to be too conservative on / size.
<nckx>Well, do assume that Guix will use more space. No argument!
<Guest48>I was thinking 100 would be good, or maybe 200, but I didn't think I'd need 600 like the guided installer suggested.
<nckx>Are you counting only the OS or a 'general purpose' partition that needs to hold enough user data to be useful?
<Guest48>I have a 2tb ssd
<Guest48>root and home is what I was going to do.
<nckx>IMO a 300G / is not cramped.
<Guest48>I don't mind using 600gigs if it needs it
<Guest48>but I don't want to go back and resize after I get this system set up.
<Guest48>but if 300G is plenty then I will go with 300G.
<Guest74>if I install gnome and later remove it, does guix make a clean deletion like a i would never have installed it?
<Guest48>I always try to make the / too small and end up giving myself a hassle later down the road. :(
<nckx>I haven't split / since the literal 90s, and that was only because a magazine told me to :)
<Guest48>I guess maybe there's not reason to anymore, I used to split because I needed to across other disks, /var, /usr, /home
<Guest48>it can make it easier to make images of things with dd.
<nckx>If you're bringing your own VMs as existing images, just know that the workflow's the same as for any other distro (you'd put them in /home or /var or whatever & point qemu or libvirt at them).
<Guest74>currently my system uses gdm although i do not need any de. is it possible to don't even have one or would I need to choose a slimmer one?
<nckx>If you build real 'images' with Guix you'll copy them out of the store so you can persistently write to them. You'd immediately GC the store copy if you need the space.
<nckx>And the third kind I explained above.
<nckx>I hope that's... clearer, at leash.
<nckx>Guest74: I use sddm which is smaller in size, although I've not compared the two. I know people start Sway by hand. X is also possible but more involved, and I forget the trick.
<Guest48>nckx it's clear. Thank you.
<nckx>You are very kind. Good luck.
<Guest48>Now you've got me questioning whether I really need to split partitions at all or if I've been anachronistic.
<nckx>Oh no, I didn't mean to!
<Guest48>well I use rsync to back most things up anymore.
<Guest48>Been a long time since I had to use dd to do anything
<nckx>It's a bad idea *for me* because I'd worry about exactly this, constantly :-)
<Guest48>and storage space isn't a big deal like it used to be, having smaller partitions to restore or copy with dd was helpful.
<Guest48>can get 10 gigs for like 130 USD now when there's a sale
<Guest48>s/10 gigs/10TB
<Guest48>even just dd on a whole drive unless you have a large SSD for your system isn't really a constraint.
<Guest48>I'm just being slow because I don't want to mess with my partition setup again once I get this system up. :)
<unmatched-paren>hello guix :)
<nckx>I would die of stress in your place, friend. Hell, I even actively enjoy the fact that I combined two SSDs into one and didn't have to choose what got the bigger one.
<nckx>Hi ).
<Guest48>nckx just using LVM or brtfs?
<nckx>bcachefs, no LVM.
<nckx>ACTION AFK o/
<Guest48>I was looking at COW filesystems too, but I don't think I really need them.
<Guest48>Seems like a big performance hit for a desktop.
<jpoiret>cow for a desktop? doesn't seem like a good idea
<jpoiret>Guest74: greetd is a fine choice
<jpoiret>i use agreety which starts sway on tty1 and a shell on tty2
<Guest74>why is cow for a desktop bad?
<Guest48>it's not bad, perse.
<Guest48>If you need the features you need the features.
<Guest48>I don't think there are any that are as fast as ext4, xfs, etc.
<Guest48>if you go look up general benchmarks of performance for most things it's two times the time to do many things.
<Guest74>jpoiret: is greetd natively supported? cant find it in the docs
<fruit-loops>"X Window (GNU Guix Reference Manual)"
<Guest74>ah okay, well I guess it depends if you want enterprise data integrity or just performance
<Guest48>it just depends on what your workload is, like everything.
<Guest74>but would you actually notice the performance hit? never read it in the time i researched about zfs and btrfs for my nas (also thought about using it on my desktop since snapshots are really need to make backups)
<Guest48>Depends on your hardware and what you're doing.
<Guest48>there's like 4 major COW fs now.
<Guest48>different performance characteristics and features.
<Guest48>This is the sort of thing where if you're being serious you have to do benchmarks on your own workloads, if you just wanna play with brtfs or unless you're on spinning rust you probably won't notice a difference for most things.
<Guest48>I think ZFS is all around fastest still, but I don't know for sure on linux 6.
<Guest48>I guess technically ZFS is not COW
<Guest74>i installed the cmd docker but it says cmd not found on guix system. shouldn't it automatically have the cmd
<bjc>zfs is copy-on-write. it's the basis of its snapshot mechanism
<Guest48>bjc, isn't it redirect on write?
<bjc>i guess, but that's not a common term. all the documentation refers to it as copy-on-write. and the actual semantics are indistinguishable (if i change 1 byte of a block, the whole block gets copied, modulo that one byte)
<bjc>i'm not aware of any file system that would copy the block to a free area before modifying it. that seems pretty wasteful
<unmatched-paren>Guest74: we have a greetd-service-type.
<unmatched-paren>Guest74: be aware that the wlgreet support doesn't seem to work for anyone but me, and i haven't been able to figure out why :(
<unmatched-paren>alas, muradm appears to have disappeared...
<nckx>Guest48: Which file systems are 'CoW' by your definition (if any)? The implication does sound inefficient at first glance.
<nckx>I can't think of any...
<nckx>I'm probably just unaware of some niche off-device/site versioning fs.
<cel7t>How is ZFS support on Guix?
<cel7t>Do you have to define a custom kernel to use it?
<bjc>it's dkms, so no
<bjc>just expect to have a longer system reconfigure when the module or kernel updates
<cel7t>Makes sense. I've been itching to try it out as it has some very neat features
<bjc>you can't put root on it, or have it take the place of standard directories, either, since there's no way to inject a pool import into the normal file system mount procedures
<bjc>iow, the support is pretty bad, but it's not unusable
<nckx>Guix doesn't use DKMS.
<bjc>ah yes. i misspoke due to over-familiarity with fedora
<bjc>(by which i mean any familiarity)
<bjc>guix does, however, compile the module during system build time if either it or the kernel changes, so it's somewhat equivalent
<nckx>Yep, just much less... hooky? Fragile? Whatever I mean.
<bjc>i like "wonky"
<nckx>I thought this was merged but apparently not:
<nckx>Wonky's good.
<fruit-loops>"[PATCH 0/4] Even Better ZFS Support on Guix"
<bjc>no. and i'm trying my best to not end up like the op in those patch series
<bjc>zfs has definitely been a frustration, but at least some of that is on me for not being able to put in the work
<bjc>i also think those patches were overly complex. if you don't need root zfs then really only shepherd needs work (which i've got a wip going for)
<bjc>for root zfs it's harder, but still simpler than what they were doing imho. at one point i had a custom guix build that could at least get the kernel started
<nckx>Nice. But that implies you no longer do?
<bjc>it was real jank. just a proof-of-concept to test whether or not i knew how the pieces fit together
<nckx>I'm equally unsure about the licence, but the arguments given in that bug seem to apply to shipping zfs in Guix proper *at all*.
<bjc>i try my best to avoid the license issue by just enabling behavior. assuming we're ok with having a package for zfs, then everything should be fine
<bjc>and while i'm driven to have zfs work, the goal is to have it just allow for fairly arbitrary hooks. currently the boot → fs mount process is pretty locked down. i just want to open it up
<nckx>The problem would not be with the patches per se, just that they'd be built on the same shaky ground as the zfs package, yes.
<nckx>ACTION reads
<fruit-loops>"Linux Kernel GPL and ZFS CDDL License clarifications in Support of Proposals in Issue #11357 and #13397 and #13349 · Issue #13415 · openzfs/zfs · GitHub"
<Guest74>acpid is currently not included. is there a specific reason (license issues or something) or did just no one implement it yet?
<nckx>bjc: Agreed, this de-monolithing problem is a shared sentiment but nobody's done so yet... Sigh.
<bjc>my hot take is that these issues are outside guix' remit. we don't have the kind of specialists it would take to "solve" whether or not the license is a problem for our use. and currently, zfs is widespread on linux, with arch/ubuntu and their derivatives even packing it pre-built and ready for use
<nckx>Guest74: Just that nobody's written a service yet. The package is fine or it wouldn't be in Guix at all.
<bjc>separating that code out is hard work. it's pretty tangled up in there, unfortunately. i think we could do with having an "early-boot" style service, which activates right before shepherd
<Guest74>nckx: okay nice, added it to my to do list
<nckx>bjc: Ouch, that take's a bit too hot to hold :-) Neither argument is valid, legal or otherwise, sadly.
<nckx>Guest74: Yay.
<bjc>i know. but i hate being held back by fud, which is the only way i can describe the cddl nonsense, at least until oracle actually sues someone
<bjc>at least the grub-zfs code is gpl? =)
<jlicht>if anyone's holding anything back, it'd be oracle ;)
<bjc>too bad zfs and dtrace are best-of-breed tools
<bjc>funnily enough, i don't think oracle linux uses either
<nckx>It would collapse the FUD superposition if they did.
<Guest74>turns out using the cmd guix home search "" isn't smart
<Guest74>just wanted to find out what is available and my RAM was filled
<jgart[m]>guix home needs an uninstaller
<jgart[m]>Open issue in case anyone wants to work on it
<jgart[m]>If you install guix home on a foreign distro there is no easy way currently to revert to not managing your home with guix home
<jgart[m]>Imagine you want to go back to managing you bashrc and similar files the traditional way to test something
<jgart[m]>tropin says it would need a symlink manager service to implement the guix home uninstall
<jgart[m]>To create an empty guix home profile would effectively be the "uninstall" from what I understood
<dansa>I installed Guix as a system (through Debian). I don't have a /etc/config.scm to run reconfigure on. What should I do? I don't want to guess a bare bones default because this is a remote server: if it doesn't boot next time it reboots, it'll be hard to recover it.
<dansa>Although I do know the partition where the system is and I'm running GRUB2.
<dansa>I can probably guess it right, but I would rather have a tool perform the work in a safe (from typos, say) way.
<dansa>For instance, I don't know if this (Linode) machine is UEFI or should boot in legacy mode, say.
<dansa>Oh, boy, IRC used to be a network of *online* people. :-)
<bjc>i just don't have a good answer for you. i wouldn't try to mess this deeply with a machine i couldn't console into. i resisted answering with: "if you can't get a console, you've got other problems to fix before you try guix"
<bjc>but here we are
<ellysone[m]><dansa> "I installed Guix as a system (..." <- ```
<ellysone[m]>if oyu 've succesfully bootstraped you should have th econfiguration that was used there
<ellysone[m]><dansa> "For instance, I don't know if..." <- for uefi you should check the docs of Linode, if yo udon't find the answer there, check for the existence of /sys/firmware/efi/efivars
<ellysone[m]>but usually for a machine on the cloud you just use mbr and don" bother with uefi
<ellysone[m]>little ad there, but I have a series of blog post running guix on multiple providers , there is this and this
<dansa>That's wonderful. That solves all I need for the moment. I didn't spot /run. Also, I while I have /boot/grub, I don't have /boot/uefi, so most likely I've been booting in legacy mode.
<dansa>Thank you so much, ellysone[m]!
<nckx>The I in IRC has, rather notoriously, always stood for Idle.
<nckx>ellysone[m]: Wow, nice series.
<dansa>Lol. Liar. It has always been Internet, with emphasis on *inter*, which rather notoriously implies interaction. :-D
<tux_life>I've already reported the issue. With the locale "it_IT.uft8" some commands like "guix system search cups" don't work. Here the output:  "LANG=LC_ALL guix system search cups"  solve this problem
<fruit-loops>"debian Pastezone"
<nckx>I just haven't found the culprit yet.
<nckx>It wasn't the obvious thing I thought it was but I haven't forgot.
<tux_life>nckx ok, thank you! Not bad ... thanks to you I learned something new anyway!
<mirai>tux_life: report this if it hasn't been already
<mirai>things should simply "work"
<mirai>gexp experts, what sense do you make of this? <>
<fruit-loops>"Untitled - Pastebin Service"
<mirai>my hunch is that it will fail miserably since it will be quoted
<tux_life>mirai ok!
<mirai>ACTION is suffering from E_CRAPCON again
<civodul>where is the gexpert group?
<sneek>Welcome back civodul, you have 2 messages!
<sneek>civodul, cwebber says: funny thing, I was supposed to ping you to ask whether or not "shepherd / guix daemon on goblins" was of interest (not a promise to commitment that we'll have resources to do it but checking if there's interest before we talk more about allocating time internally)
<sneek>civodul, dthompson says: re: GSoC mentoring, I could probably co-mentor the guix system web interface as a personal-time thing. if any spritely+guix projects end up happening I could be part of that, too, but I'll leave that stuff to cwebber.
<bjc>i think that's you, civodul
<nckx>tux_life: I can only reproduce this without ./pre-inst-env so far :-/
<nckx>Congrats on your ‘promotion’, now get to work.
<mirai>civodul: announcement for a gexp team ? :)
<bjc>is the actor-ified shepherd sitting on a branch somewhere?
<bjc>and is it a "just messing around"-level project, or is it intended to become official?
<civodul>mirai: you can be part of it!
<civodul>special offer: become a gexpert in 10 days
<civodul>bjc: it's sitting on the branch called "master"
<bjc>oh! i guess i need to pull, then =)
<lain_>What's a "gexpert"?
<nckx>tux_life: I'll play with later. I've already filed a bug, by the way.
<mirai>totally untested but maybe this eldritch snippet will handle lists and procedures?
<fruit-loops>"Untitled - Pastebin Service"
<civodul>cwebber: that'd be great! i don't have a clear Spritely/Guix or Spritely/Shepherd project in mind yet, do you?
<mirai>parametrized mcron time spec looks non-trivial
<civodul>mirai: you're mixing gexps and quasiquote; that's okay, but better choose one
<civodul>lain_: portmanteau of "gexp" (g-expression) and "expert"
<mirai>it has to ungexp to the correct type :)
<civodul>the type is "expression"
<mirai>a list has to be ungexpd to a list (typically done by '#$foo)
<lain_>I see
<civodul>that's how you have to think about it
<mirai>#$(map foo '(1 2 3 4)) results in a procedure call though
<fruit-loops>"G-Expressions (GNU Guix Reference Manual)"
<lain_>I found documentation
<mirai>it will call ((foo 1) (foo 2) ...)
<mirai>not really a list anymore :(
<civodul>mirai: probably you'll want, say #~(display '#$(map 1+ (iota 10)))
<civodul>we need to look at the context of the whole gexp
<mirai><< I discovered this by working as a shepherd hangman for a day
<civodul>here the thing needs to be quoted
<fruit-loops>"Untitled - Pastebin Service"
<mirai>the 'schedule' can be either a list, a string or a parameter (according to mcron)
<cwebber>civodul: I think the biggest one would be "what would it look like if Shepherd was written on top of Goblins and you could use its captp for remote admin / service restarts / monitoring"
<mirai>how would you parametrize this mcron job?
<mirai>parametrize the time spec
<civodul>cwebber: yes, that could be fun
<civodul>cwebber: there are possibly two issues i see: (1) the Shepherd is undergoing heavy changes these days (going in the direction of actors)
<cwebber>well (1) obviously has compliments :)
<civodul>and (2) i wonder if we should play around with these ideas before giving it to an innocent student :-)
<cwebber>civodul: it might be a good idea to play around with them yes
<cwebber>civodul: maybe this is the time to convince you to finally do some coding in goblins ;)
<cwebber>open up that tutorial!
<civodul>i'm slowly but surely getting closer! :-)
<cwebber>it doesn't take long to go through the tutorial :)
<civodul>(and i did read the garder example and a bunch of other things!)
<cwebber>yeah :)
<cwebber>I know you're following
<cwebber>trying is another thing as you know :)
<civodul>yeah, agreed
<cwebber>the hands on imperative
<cwebber>time to go take a shower. but how should we discuss this further civodul ?
<cwebber>if we wanted to take action, we should maybe have an experiment happen very soon
<civodul>yes, but i'm not sure how much i can promise!
<civodul>i'd love to do more but i feel stuck in the day-to-day operations
<cwebber>of guix?
<cwebber>or of life or both
<civodul>yeah, and stuff at work
<cwebber>guix can spare you for a weekend ;)
<civodul>and life too ;-)
<cwebber>especially if it's in the interest of guix
<civodul>on the weekend i also like to be with my family, so reduced hack time :-)
<cwebber>well, here's a suggestion
<cwebber>I don't understand shepherd well
<cwebber>maybe you and I should do a call where you walk me through it and what the new actor-like stuff is
<cwebber>and we can talk about how it would look under goblins
<bjc>please record it if you do
<cwebber>I have a good setup for that
<civodul>should we do async email or similar instead? i'd feel less pressure :-)
<civodul>(in terms of schedule commitment too)
<cwebber>async email works except for me being buried under it ;_;
<cwebber>but we can try :)
<mirai>is shepherd going to change dramatically?
<bjc>going to actors will be a pretty big change
<cwebber>it feels a bit to me like
<cwebber>if there's going to be "going to actors is a big change"
<cwebber>it might be better to do a big change once and see what it's like to use goblins
<cwebber>but obviously, I am biased
<cwebber>goblins brings a few other things to the table, as I said, remote admin for one
<civodul>yeah, as the guy who's spent time debugging PID 1, i like to be relatively conservative :-)
<bjc>i see the advantage of actors, and cleanup in general. i don't see what ocap buys it necessarily, but i'm open to convincing
<civodul>the fiberization/actorization work is happening in phases
<cwebber>the ocap vision could also be composable services
<cwebber>I should lay out in an email what the vision is for guix as *the* secure ocap operating system of the future
<civodul>we discussed it a bit with tsyesika at FOSDEM
<cwebber>so I heard, very positive to hear that :)
<bjc>does linux offer a capsicum-like facitily for bottom-up capabilities?
<cwebber>capsicum was being ported to linux
<lain_>what is actors?
<bjc>i'd heard. not sure how far along that got, though. i didn't follow it too closely
<cwebber>but the team abandoned it, sadly, in favor of the zircon/fuchsia stuff that also maybe was recently killed within goog
<cwebber>however it's possible to do ocap things without capsicum
<cwebber>capsicum would make it much more feasible tho
<fruit-loops>"Actor model - Wikipedia"
<civodul>cwebber: did you see (guix least-authority)?
<cwebber>civodul: !!!
<bjc>yeah, capsicum is just something that exists and known working, and i'm not aware of other options for linux
<lain_>bjc thank you. It was really difficult to look up because I would get people and films lol
<cwebber>ok very promising civodul
<mirai>how do I make a service restart on system reconfigure ?
<mirai>if its possible to begin with
<cwebber>civodul: I'll try to get my "Guix as the ocap OS of the future" email out to the list soonish
<cwebber>and also maybe another one for shepherd, the guix daemon, and goblins
<cwebber>how does that sound?
<civodul>cwebber: sounds good, thanks a lot!
<cwebber>back to hacking terminal phase
<cwebber>the guile port is so close
<civodul>yay \o/
<cwebber>I just keep getting closer by little bits and pieces
<cwebber>the game can already be played
<civodul>i admire your hack energy!
<cwebber>ha, yours too
<cwebber>you're more productive than me I think
<civodul>been be bit lacking lately tho
<cwebber>now that the spritely insitute is more up and running I've been more manager / co-founder than hacker many days, but still doing lots of technical architecture setting and review and design. and it's tons of fun, and the team is kicking butt
<pkill9>what is ocap?
<cwebber>btw some Guile Hoot stuff
<fruit-loops>"Christine Lemmer-Webber: "Yes, the Guile->WASM project (Guile Hoot) is not …" - the Octodon"
<cwebber>pkill9: object capability security
<cwebber>Lambda, the Ultimate Security Model :)
<cwebber>is the best intro I've seen
<cwebber> may now be better :)
<fruit-loops>"The Heart of Spritely: Distributed Objects and Capability Security"
<cwebber>time for a shower. bbiab
<mirai>do you guys observe errors in /var/log/mcron.log ?
<mirai>assuming a mostly stock guix configuration
<mirai>mostly rottlog? errors
<mirai>maybe the rottlog service defaults are out of whack?
<msavoritias>so the plan is to add ocap in the basis of guix as a system or as a package manager?
<msavoritias>that email is going to be very interesting
<Guest74>my guix system takes ages to reboot, is this normal?
<msavoritias>no its not. do you see any messages? Could it be that an application takes too long to stop
<nckx>tux_life: Could you pull & try again?
<mirai>I wonder if I'm drawing any ire from the translation team with the bulk doc / texinfo changes
<lain_>mirai lol don't worry about it, they can get to it when they get to it. Updating the documentation to accurately and clearly reflect the state of the system is very important
<mirai>the texinfo changes trip some people up :)
<mirai>in fact I suspect there's a bunch of them already
<lain_>What is used to ensure consistency between the html, texinfo, etc?
<lain_>Are each updated manually?
<mirai>given the messages of "mismatched @deftp" or whatever when you build guix
<mirai>mostly on the translated manuals
<mirai>lain_: they're generated from the same source
<mirai>its up for texinfo to massage the text into the appropriate outputs
<lain_>texinfo can make html documents?
<mirai>up to
<lain_>Interesting, that's very useful
<lain_>Does it understand things such as placing newlines in pdfs so the line doesn't go off the page?
<mirai>I think so
<mirai>its supposed to be "agnostic"
<mirai>your only concern is to write the text
<mirai>the typesetting is handled separately
<lain_>Is it Texinfo or TeXinfo?
<tux_life>nckx still not working without LANG=LC_ALL
<mirai>lain_: no idea, check the webpage
<tux_life>after guix pull, sudo guix system reconfigure /etc/config.scm and reboot
<lain_>mirai Webpage lists it as Texinfo :(
<civodul>it's "Texinfo" indeed
<bjc>so thanks to whoever sent me down the cddl rabbit hole. turns out the reason oracle isn't suing anyone over zfs/dtrace (and why freebsd can use it), is that the cddl isn't being violated at all. it is (potentially) the gpl
<bjc>so the linux developers would have to do the suing. which seems unlikely, given the preponderance of binary blob drivers
<bjc>§ 3.5 of the cddl specifically allows executable distribution under the terms of any license whatsoever. and other sections allow source code to be included in larger works not covered by the cddl
<bjc>iow, it is not oracle we have to fear, but the fsf. i'm not sure which is worse ;)
<Guest48>Does anyone here use Wayland on GuixSD?
<mirai>what's up
<bjc>yes. set (wayland? #t) in ‘gdm-configuration’
<bjc>interestingly, oracle are offering dtrace in their "unbreakable linux" kernel, and as such are violating the gpl themselves even though the cddl allows for such use
<Guest48>bjc, do you use wayland?
<rdrg109_>[Q] How to jump to the definition of home-services packages? I'm curious about how they are written. I could clone the git repository, but I'd rather see the files that are installed in my system.
<Guest48>I am coming from gentoo and have yet to try Wayland, and blender and some other things I use now support it. Do you have any comments about wayland instead of Xorg? Run into anything really annoying?
<bjc>nothing particularly annoying. i don't really have any comments, either. for the most part it just works. but i use sway these days. i have had no end of trouble with it using kde/plasma, and haven't used gnome enough with it to speak
<Guest48>I'm an awesomewm user, but I was planning on using sway.
<Guest48>figure... might as well jump head first.
<msavoritias>sway works with no problems here too
<bjc>i should point out that while i'm using wayland/sway, the vast majority of things i use run under xwayland, so it's not obvious what benefits wayland brings
<bjc>to the point that i'm thinking of ditching it and going to i3 under xorg instead
<gnucode>hey guix !
<mirai>Does this sentence sound 'alright' for a cronjob?
<mirai>> By default this is set to run weekly at Sunday 00:00.
<lain_>> By default, this is set to run weekly on Sunday at 00:00.
<lain_>I think
<GuixAdmirer96>Someone is working on a patch series to run Guix on the M1!
<fruit-loops>"[PATCH 0/7] Add some Asahi Linux packages"
<mirai>lain_: thanks
<Guest74>my monitor has 144hz but my system only uses 60hz. how can i change that? (I use exwm not something like gnome or xfce)
<mirai>guile texinfo module doesn't know the @footnote command
<lain_>that's unfortunate
<lain_>it's part of their reference card
<surpador>rdrg109_: guix home edit $HOME_SERVICE_NAME
<mirai>jpoiret: I know we just had a discussion on the topic of easy service testing so I'll apologise for the configless #61964 :)
<fruit-loops>"[PATCH] services: Add fstrim-service-type."
<mirai>hard to include a SSD for the test or qemu to work :)
<wdkrnls>Dear Guix, has anyone explored how best to include emacs in a guix shell?
<jpoiret>wdkrnls: just add emacs to the guix shell invocation
<mirai>it didn't crunch my drive away so I assume it's "good enough"
<wdkrnls>For example, passing XDG_CONFIG_HOME environment variables instead of relying on implicit global state...
<mirai>(at least git send-email still worked)
<wdkrnls>From reading the Emacs documentation it wasn't clear to me it would respect it.
<jpoiret>what is your exact use-case wdkrnls?
<jpoiret>mirai: I'll have a look at some point
<jpoiret>i do have an ssd to test it on
<wdkrnls>My use case is testing out features for Emacs experimentally in a way which leaves artifacts I can point to.
<wdkrnls>As opposed to the sorts of informal experiments you can do on any old distro.
<jpoiret>recent emacses have the --init-directory
<jpoiret>but -Q along with manual loading should be good enough
<wdkrnls>ah, cool I didn't see the --init-directory argument
<civodul>wdkrnls: i heard that "buffer-env" should let us associate an environment with a buffer, but i haven't tried it yet
<wdkrnls>civodul: yeah, I am excited to figure out how to use that as well
<wdkrnls>That mainly works for other experiments :)
<wdkrnls>For some reason I cannot talk myself out of keeping Emacs in drivers seat for my window manager.
<wdkrnls>But mainly because my hard drive is failing ("read-only" system failures becoming more frequent) I am trying to figure out how to reproduce my existing setup on another computer.
<bjc>i haven't been able to get buffer-env working with guix. not sure why yet, but it's probably due to my use of tramp
<wdkrnls>bjc: Seems like maybe with this --init-directory argument you could find out in a way which doesn't disturb your main tramp configuration :)
<bjc>the problem is that i basically only use tramp for work. precious little i do is on my local machine. basically just email and irc
<wdkrnls>Sadly, I couldn't get the --init-directory argument to work.
<mirai>huh, exactly where/what do I report for this missing @footnote texinfo support in guile?
<mirai>backtrace at
<fruit-loops>"Untitled - Pastebin Service"
<wdkrnls>I tried: emacs --init-directory=$HOME/.config/emacs
<wdkrnls>Whereas I have my default Emacs configuration in .emacs.d.
<wdkrnls>It says "unknown option"
<wdkrnls>I guess this doesn't really concern Guix, so I will go bug #emacs...
<wdkrnls>But, from what I read this option will work once Guix moves to Emacs 29.
<civodul>fixing Hurd support on core-updates is going to be non-trivial :-/
<tux_life>Hi! can I run a command (with root privileges) on start-up? Unfortunately I will never be able to define my own service... My goal is to automate the "sudo dnscrypt-proxy --resolver-name=NAME" command.
<utis>does the package manager not come with an uninstall script?
<rekado>I’ve just set up the Sugar desktop environment on an i686 netbook. It’s a little confusing… :)
<rekado>and I found a familiar name in an unexpected place (as one of the authors of the Jukebox activity)
<mirai>is there a way to embed "guix system vm" arguments into the config.scm file? (args such as --no-graphic)
<mirai>or arbitrary qemu arguments
<rekado>mirai: I don’t think so.
<rekado>civodul: is there a discussion about that on the mailing list?
<oleander>Hello everyone! What module does ungoogled chromium require? When I try to reconfigure after declaring the package, the hint displays a generic "Did you forget a 'use-modules' form". Is there a way to know this by running a command?
<rekado>“guix show ungoogled-chromium” shows you the module
<lilyp>mirai: only if you make your config.scm executable and use the exec guile trick
<mirai>what's this magic trick
<mirai>lilyp: do you have an example?
<mirai>ah wait, is it the shebang extension?
<lilyp>yep, exactly
<mirai>thanks for the tip
<utis>ah, no uninstall script, terrific
<jpoiret>wdkrnls: ah yes, i'm using emacs-next atm
<oleander>rekado: thanks!
<guixfren>what does "error: AccessDenied" as an error in a package's install step mean?
<fruit-loops>"debian Pastezone"
<guixfren>here's the full error log
<lilyp>your package tries to write to /usr rather than respecting $prefix
<guixfren>when I build it in a ``guix shell`` as my user it installs fine into the specified prefix
<f3n1x>i'm unsuccesfully running a Python script which is requiring Instead of importing mymodule via pip, i'm giving myself the chance to learn the 'guix way of doing Python' !
<tux_life28>Ok, without having understood much, I finally wrote my service for dnscrypt-proxy:      "sudo herd status" says: ....... Stopped: -dnscrypt-proxy. When I try to start it I get: Service dnscrypt-proxy is currently disabled.
<tux_life28>herd: failed to start service dnscrypt-proxy. Any help?
<fruit-loops>"debian Pastezone"
<f3n1x>... i've just 'guix package -i python-mymodule'. Why does my python script complain about not finding 'mymodule' ? thanks, thanks, thanks
<lain_>f3n1x guix will only be able to install a module if the module is in the guix repositories
<lain_>you can do "guix search mymodule" to try and find your module, but if it isn't there you're not gonna be able to install it
<lain_>through guix*
<lain_>without writing a config*
<Guest74>i need qt5widgets for a package, which package provides that?
<civodul>rekado: discussion about the Hurd?
<fruit-loops>"Pushing a MiG release tarball?"
<civodul>i considered building from a checkout, but it'd be tricky
<mirai>wew, thank _ for check-system
<mirai>just avoided a bug with it
<guixfren>I like to keep my own modules in /etc/guix-modules
<mirai>sneek: later tell civodul I forgot to CC you the v2 series for pam-limits-service changes at #61744
<fruit-loops>"[PATCH] services: base: Deprecate 'pam-limits-service' procedure."
<winter>Anyone know the best way to ignore a single test in an Autotools-based program?
<winter>I cannot find a good way for the life of me 🙃
<mirai>patch it out
<winter>other than patching it out I meant
<civodul>winter: "make check XFAIL_TESTS=the-offending-test"
<sneek>Welcome back civodul, you have 1 message!
<sneek>civodul, mirai says: I forgot to CC you the v2 series for pam-limits-service changes at #61744
<fruit-loops>"[PATCH] services: base: Deprecate 'pam-limits-service' procedure."
<mirai>its worth trying to get it working though
<winter>this specific test is impossible to get working, but you're right that I should at least just remove the only broken part of it
<winter>and keep the stuff that works since that's still a worthy check
<winter><civodul> winter: "make check XFAIL_TESTS=the-offending-test" <-- Cheers, will note for the future.
<winter>thanks mirai and ludo ^^
<winter>(substitute* "tests/"
<winter> (("^\"\\$\\{SCRATCH\\}\"\\/simple$") "foo"))
<winter>anyone happen to know why this substitute* invocation isn't replacing a line that says "${SCRATCH}"/simple? the regex is correct...
<winter>sure the all the backslashes look terrible, but it should work at least
<winter>s/the all/all the
<mirai>what does the script look like
<winter>oh shoot, i'm looking at a newer revision than i'm packaging...
<winter>ACTION facepalms
<winter>that would do it,
<winter>sigh, sorry
<SeerLite[m]>Hi! When I do ./pre-inst-env guix build it tries to download/rebuild a package instead of reusing the output in /gnu/store. building the package without my main profile's guix correctly reuses the previously built output (which is what I expect to happen with pre-inst-env). HEAD in my local checkout is the same as the commit shown in guix describe, and this all is after a fresh ./bootstrap, make clean and make. What could be causing
<SeerLite[m]>this? The package in question is udisks but the same happens with alacritty.
<rekado>civodul: oh, that’s unfortunately not a new kind of problem :-/
<apoorv569[m]>Which package provides notify-send command?
<winter>Is there a good way to rewrite a package that does '(string-append (assoc-ref inputs "gcc:lib") "/lib"' to use new-style input notation? I could use 'search-input-directory', but that seems fragile because I'd have to search for a file within '/lib' and then get that file's base name to achieve the same effect.
<civodul>rekado: oh you tried already?
<civodul>winter: i'm afraid there's no good replacement for this one
<civodul>(search-input-file "/lib/") or similar would do, but yeah
<winter>I'll just leave it as-is then, thanks.
<winter>should I rebase a patch for core-updates on top of it before sending?
<winter>guess I should
<SeerLite[m]>Re: my pre-inst-env issue: I removed the repo and cloned again and the issue is gone. Maybe I messed up when I was setting it up