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<rekado>nckx: I just ran “herd restart goggles-bot” on bayfront
<lechner>guix deploy: error: build of `/gnu/store/ck7h2hzhql2xzq1mi99viq9ka521kl0f-guix-1.4.0rc2.drv' failed
<lechner>FAIL: tests/pypi.scm
<ham5urg>Is there a module to create a virtual network device/switch?
<apteryx>not yet; you have to use command line tools in shepherd one-shot services
<apteryx>lechner: the output you show doesn't show the error
<apteryx>we see tests/guix-describe was skipped
<lechner>apteryx / sorry, i am new. it took me a while to find it. is this the failure?
<apteryx>it'd be nice to have the output of pk
<nckx>lechner: Ah, thanks, (minor) mystery (likely) solved! I was using's KiwiIRC instance then (hence the strange nick & inability to SSH).
<lechner>nckx / now we know what's been up with our Potential-Users
<lechner>apteryx / how may i find the output of pk, please?
<nckx>On stdout, should start with ";;; "
<lechner>that's from Eshell
<ham5urg>apteryx, can you show a link to some example? It does not be to be network-related.
<degauss>apollo, rekado: I just created #60017 for fixing the bluetooth-service docstring.
<jpoiret>more than 60k debbugs issues? 🥳
<KarlJoad>I am having trouble building a Guile script in Guix. The "cuirass-mailer-script" package builds the script with the "mailer-script" function. The command that is printed by the (format ...) is correct, because I can manually copy it into my shell and run it just fine. But the script fails with a "execvp of /gnu/store/...-msmtp ...: No such file or directory".
<degauss>jpoiret: Need to celebrate that at the next physical meeting (FOSDEM?). :D
<jpoiret>i'm still not sure if i can make it, if so, I'd only be going to the guix days
<KarlJoad>I have verified that all files exist, and I can even run echo -e "headers\n\nbody" into the CONTENTS of the generated script file, and it works (I get the email). But the script still blows up on a missing file.
<apteryx>ham5urg: I don't use a one-shot service myself, but I believe the Shepherd manual must document it, albeit probably briefly
<jpoiret>KarlJoad: doesn't system* take multiple strings as an argument?
<jpoiret>ie (system* "echo" "hello")
<jpoiret>it's different from system that runs it through a shell
<unmatched-paren>ACTION sent v2 of Dissecting Guix, Part 1: Derivations
<apteryx>lechner: you could try reproducing the failure locally, with 'make check TESTS=tests/pypi.scm'
<apteryx>when I debug this kind of problem the output is often not that useful, so I end up pasting stuff at the repl
<nckx>lechner: I haven't been following this from the start, only saw the pk question, but could it be in the build log? Or are you debugging guix (deploy) itself?
<lechner>ACTION may one day offer a paste service for Guix build logs that automatically shows only the differences to the most recent build log known to compile
<jpoiret>unmatched-paren: from my cursory glance it reads nicely
<KarlJoad>jpoiret: You are right, and that is what fixed it. I did not expect that the entire string would be treated as the command, despite what the documentation says.
<jpoiret>the guile documentation seems okay to me, if a bit terse
<jpoiret>there's even an example
<lechner>apteryx / nckx / the error no longer occurred when the command ran again
<nckx>👍 fixed.
<lechner>Guix is self-healing
<nckx>It machine learns.
<lechner>i think it just said hi to me
<nckx>lechner: Could this be another instance of ‘Guix is extremely sensitive to network flukes’? Not an excuse, but…
<nckx>…it would save you hunting down heisenbugs, at least.
<nckx>ACTION still blissfully lacking context, and unrepentant. I'm off to cook something remotely edible; have fun!
<lechner>nckx / Guix has so many advantages to me that I really do not care about occasional mishaps, as concerning as they may be to the reproducibility community
<jlicht>Does define-configuration support (something like) `this-record' + thunked fields?
<apteryx>I don't think so
<zpiro>don't accept my home work as your own unless you are in a bad place. But the amount of busy bee talent involved, is intidimidating to most users, where "guix wiki" for me come with a wikipedia hit, then, and third, an arch linux wiki page about using guix. that it works well is one thing, but the lack of is pretty bad.
<rekado>zpiro: the cookbook is supposed to be the place to find accumulated community wisdom
<zpiro>rekado: yes, but, aehm, where are the rans and the hero that fix it? Or the documented tragedy and story of someone with the same problem that got help on the internet at large? May be wors in class in that regard.
<rekado>zpiro: it’s a living document.
<zpiro>most new users are guile and lisp dyslectic, and may remain that through their IT careers with a few weeks or months of exceptions over something specific.
<zpiro>rekado: it's pretty and clean though.
<zpiro>that is, there is real value in the dumb shit you forgot during the two weeks or two months you had the chance to help the next guy with documentation for the ignorant.
<nckx>ACTION failed the challenge; ate it anyway.
<nckx>zpiro: For Guix, that ‘forum’ function (still not a wiki) of problems + answers is mostly filled by the bug tracker & other mailing lists, for better or worse.
<zpiro>a lot of documentation, suffer from Ph.d level of background knowledge.
<zpiro>across the board, for all unix/linux and gnu stuffs.
<nckx>ACTION has 0 PhDs. ☹
<zpiro>a culture conduscive of the non-ph.d expectation and dumb shit is lacking.
<singpolyma>nckx: the perfect number
<zpiro>nckx: and most stylistic settings and many cool projects are done by ph.d's with the "basics" of a masters in IT in the bag.
<jlicht>zpiro: I don't know what concrete challenges you're having, but I can share a personal anecodate that boils down to having to be more patient with myself in order to grok guix. YMMV, of course
<nckx>I was looking for the pun.
<zpiro>jlicht: I was an early adopter of nixos and guix, but been a while. and forgotten all the dumb shit, blunt force information that cover that stuff---the more examples the better it is. shortens the learning curve for new and olders users that haven't paid attention in a while and forgotten things.
<zpiro>None of the dumb stuff I used to know---that I know lisp and guile dyslectics will hit eventually, is no where to be found on google.
<jlicht>unrelated to anything in particular, the fact that match-record allows me to only match a subset of fields is making `(guix records)' part of my AOC toolkit this year :D
<rekado>ACTION can never not read AOC as a person’s name.
<rekado>what shall we do about core-updates?
<jlicht>AoC? Makes more sense anyway
<rekado>I was going to push something to core-updates, but I wonder if we need to do something with it to sync up with the current master branch.
<zpiro>jlicht: think of the value such thing has for anyone that is considering a choice of embedded scripting language that can compiled!
<vagrantc>ACTION ponders the value of staying on topic
<ham5urg>I have nothing about the NIC ens3 in /etc/config.scm, nevertheless it is configured via dhcp. Where can I find the config about?
<rekado>e.g. core-updates doesn’t even have (guix build-system pyproject) yet
<zpiro>If I can just... It may be better that most technical questions are more internet accessible, and channels have a bigger social, tolerant, conference, convention---or basically 50% everything with reasonable curation. A FAQ from this channel is probably of amazing value.
<rekado>so what I wanted to push to core-updates can’t go there anyway at this point
<podiki[m]>when was the last time master was merged into core-updates?
<podiki[m]>that's probably what we want to look at next as 1.4.0 finalizes right? (or as 2023 starts)
<rekado>maybe 2 months ago
<rekado>master was merged into staging, and staging into core-updates
<vagrantc>hrm. i vaguely recall i had some unfinished reproducible builds stuff for core-updates ...
<zpiro>rekado: and there probably should be "internet and irc lives matter" grammar nazi's and language interested people that need little to have their personal IT needs and interest covered and a or something to lord over and curate happenings, stories, trends and common questions and events.
<zpiro>if you copy pasting stuff stuff from IRC to start building a wiki of random stuff of interest.
<podiki[m]>last core-updates -> master was...a year ago?
<podiki[m]>oh almost a year ago to the day, dec 13 2021
<podiki[m]>(after some months of "frozen")
<zpiro>which is another problem, guile and lisp have 50 years of attitudes and culture concerning linguistics and their processing.
<tricon>zpiro: i am in favor of a wiki.
<rekado>tricon: this has been discussed many, many times before. We won’t have a wiki.
<rekado>podiki[m]: yeah, it’s been a long time.
<zpiro>podiki[m]: puppet masters that expect machinery to respect good language, and bravely creates recipies tend toweards emacs, and those trying to dominate the electronics tend towards vim styles.
<podiki[m]>I guess once 1.4.0 is out and the dust settles we can get curiass cranking on that branch
<rekado>podiki[m]: yes, it’s the next big project to finish.
<podiki[m]>I live for the thrill of the first reconfigure on a core-updates :)
<rekado>I hope we can figure out a way to avoid these very long core-update cycles.
<tricon>rekado: understood. i must have missed those conversations. appreciate the clarification.
<zpiro>to cater to both, tricon a wiki is needed. as many don't care about the language and body of work and just want to copy paste and spend time on systems thinking, less attracted to the elegance of a single descriptive interface. The more of those extremes involved, the more vibrant---me thinks.
<rekado>tricon: the idea is that the Cookbook will cover more and more use-cases with the advantage that it’s more manageable and edited according to community standards
<tricon>rekado: that makes a lot of sense to me. the latter are most certainly true in contrast with a wiki.
<zpiro>since this is a church, pun intended, that there are two types of people. The emacs type and the vim type, and that this actually is where a broad set of attitudes need to be catered to for desired attention.
<rekado>I don’t think it’s helpful to try to establish this arbitrary dichotomy.
<podiki[m]>rekado: yes, I'd like to have a project discussion on our updates criteria (number of rebuilds) and using more and smaller branches. I'd think we'd have general agreement but the details will matter
<vagrantc>zpiro: please be considerate of others and reduce the verbosity, and i daresay you're language choices have edged mightly close to inflammatory at times ... i am trying to assume good intent, but it makes me wonder.
<zpiro>but it can be stated that simple, there really are two types of people. those thinking about what they have to work with, and those that prefer thinking about what they are working with. As a subtle of a difference it is, the more important it is, stress and what you do and need show itself, both in preference and what is available.
<podiki[m]>I feel like it comes up when core-updates does but we haven't bit the bullet to make the changes. with QA coming along nicely I think we're closer to bigger changes in the process
<zpiro>vagrantc: but I am flame retardent, so it is fine, I can probably balance that---should be indications in the language and framing of it, that i really am able to.
<vagrantc>zpiro: weather you are flame retardant or not... this is not a community that generally needs to flame each other. we take input from others and adjust our behavior as needed, politely, kindly and with grace.
<zpiro>vagrantc: but maybe it would have free room for that if more went to a wiki. somewhere in here I can became difficult, as there is curious thing about timing, wording and it is impact on general tone from community authority position and means.
<vagrantc>zpiro: you are free to make a wiki somewhere, but my understanding is that the guix maintainers are not going to maintain a wiki.
<vagrantc>i don't think it is respectful to keep rehashing old conversations
<zpiro>vagrantc: right, so for freedom of speech, and the stage---context---why should i not go, "freedom of speech", "communism", or any other joke that can be had. Because I know play this tune, or find myself outside of approved discourse from community leaders voicing disinterest in the topically relevant chat.
<zpiro>All is fine right? But this sort of killed it.
<vagrantc>zpiro: that is a complicated philosophical issue and well outside the topic of this channel
<zpiro>vagrantc: yes, but it is possible to be clear, that any one person's opinion doesn't matter. and the the higher your GNU responsibility is----anyone that ask for gets it, until the point that there is one, failure be damned?
<vagrantc>i don't think it's possible to be clear, other than i don't think you understand the norms of this channel or community, zpiro
<KarlJoad>jpoiret: There is an example, yes. I just did not fully understand what it meant by the first string being special, because I had written another script using (system).
<vagrantc>zpiro: and weather you are intentionally or unintentionally being disruptive, it kind of doesn't matter. please. as one human to another. just stop.
<zpiro>vagrantc: I am not, not in the slightest, the world is an onion. And this is the second time I say you killed this chat dead with your community position.
<vagrantc>i am pretty sure we'll come back to discussing core-updates, the upcoming guix release, and so on quite fine.
<zpiro>vagrantc: yes, but will any brave community users, that live internet lives, with a passion for guix ask for a wiki domain? Maybe...
<efraim>zpiro: it's not happening. I suggest you take your ramblings elsewhere
<zpiro>efraim: it is however an onion, and someone not me can ask t cover such arguments if they are interested.
<vagrantc>ACTION waves
<zpiro>By and large, user community more socially involved need a wiki, call it press on expression and average users friendly fronting development.
<efraim>that's enough of that
<efraim>ACTION heads back to bed
<nckx>ACTION blinks.
<nckx>ACTION wishes sneek could leave messages without pinging the person *now*. Anyway, thanks ef​raim.
<podiki[m]>can PM sneek?
<nckx>Used to work, then didn't, haven't tested since.
<podiki[m]>ACTION would love to make his first official commit, but too much other stuff going on
<corydalis470>Is there a way to know if an update requires a reboot? Something like the =/var/run/reboot-required= file in Debian or the =needrestart= package? I update my system in GuixSD by running ~guix pull && sudo guix system reconfigure /etc/desktop.scm~
<podiki[m]>not that I know of but you can restart/start services with herd as should be messaged at the end of reconfigure at least
<podiki[m]>but generally I think a reboot is warranted, or I guess killing X and restarting it if your display manager and Xorg packages were updated for instance
<nckx>Yep, but that's more of a ‘it's probably a good idea to restart stuff’ message, there isn't any ‘reboot required’ tracking anywhere in Guix AFAIK.
<nckx>I never reboot.
<nckx>Depends on how well you know your particular system.
<podiki[m]>I'll do a reboot every few weeks maybe for new kernel and all that
<podiki[m]>though recently it has been more often since a certain new cat has a penchant for pressing the power button...(I thought I made it just suspend but apparently not)
<podiki[m]>pro tip: know where the power switch is on surge protectors before you blindly move one
<nckx>I looked up this ‘needrestart’ thing. That particular concept doesn't make any sense on Guix (it deals with libraries changed under a daemon—which can't happen) but something close to it, with changed (updated) executables, could!
<nckx>podiki[m]: Yes, a very sloppy use of never there. I do in fact reboot every few weeks, or when I've tinkered with the kernel. I reconfigure/update several times a week though.
<podiki[m]>so you say would detect when a store path for a referenced binary changes?
<alex[m]1234567>hi all. I'm trying to package a ruby gem that has c extensions, but I'm running into some trouble.
<alex[m]1234567>It seems to build successfully, but when I append it to my manifest, `guix shell` and type `require "thegem"` in irb, I get the following message: "Ignoring thegem-x.y.z because its extensions are not built. Try: gem pristine thegem --version x.y.z"
<alex[m]1234567>has anyone seen this before?
<nckx>podiki[m]: Yeah…
<nckx>ACTION sleeepy, goes to sleeep.
<corydalis470>nckx podiki: I always reboot when the kernel, glibc, dbus, openssl are updated.
<podiki[m]>glibc I think will only see changes rarely (when core-updates is merged), but there could be grafts which effectively are an update
<mirai>What's the ChangeLog entry format?
<podiki[m]>it is a style of writing commit messages, all the guix commit messages should fit it
<mirai>(for guix commits)
<podiki[m]>with one change per (usually) and with the variable/thing that changed, and the specifics
<podiki[m]>there are helpers like yassnippet and templ in the guix repo, magit and other tools probably can help as well
<podiki[m]>so it tells you specifically each change
<podiki[m]>found this quickly, but I think this is the full detail
<podiki[m]>rather this is the starting point I found from GNU
<mirai>If I changed a nested procedure, do I use the top level procedure or...? (define x define y ...) << y changed
<mekeor[m]>hello. i installed and configured thinkfan. i would like to start it automatically. but it requires root priviledges. how can i achieve that?
<unmatched-paren>mekeor[m]: probably a service
<mekeor[m]>unmatched-paren: makes sense :D
<unmatched-paren>unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any thinkfan-service-type (yet!)
<mekeor[m]>right :D
<mekeor[m]>the package also needs an upgrade actually :D
<mekeor[m]>and how would you recommend to turn off bluetooth by default?
<unmatched-paren>mekeor[m]: there's probably a setting in networkmanager or whatever you use, i'm not sure
<unmatched-paren>ACTION away, bye \o
<mekeor[m]>goodbye, unmatched-paren :)
<tribals>Hi, folks!
<tribals>What does `--system` option do in `guix shell` invocation?
<tribals>If `--system` differs from host?
<rekado>tribals: useful for a i686-linux environment on x86_64-linux