<bdju>can someone update the foot package? I was able to install a later commit with the --with-commit= arg, so it's probably easy to update it for real <bdju>I haven't applied my manifest in a while because I have a fewer newer things manually installed, and it looks like that's the main thing that's way behind still <singpolyma>bdju: should be as easy as updating the commit, run a build, swap the hash out for the one from the error, run a build, if it works submit the patch :) <bdju>I haven't been through the process myself before, so it would probably take me a disproportionately long time and I might just not feel like doing it all <bdju>it's on my bucket list to figure out updating/packaging things and sending in patches <nckx>I've updated foot but it's not pushed. <nckx>But indeed, the better way to ask for updates is to send a simple patch to guix-patches at gnu dot org ☺ <viivien>I’ve set up a jami rendez-vous service! The pitfalls to avoid: don’t forget to activate your account before you save it for the service, disable upnp, and don’t keep duplicate accounts on your machine otherwise you will DDOS yourself. <bdju>thanks, nckx, I will try to learn one of these days <bdju>speaking of updates, I hit a build failure on webkitgtk. looks like there are already 2 reports of the issue on the mailing list, though. <nckx>Yes, and no fix so far. :-/ <nckx>Has anyone heard of lfam since? ***robin_ is now known as robin
***moonman is now known as lunarsie
<bdju>the amount of things that apparently depend on webkitgtk that are on my system is mind-boggling. I keep adding to the do-not-upgrade list just to find something else failed for the same reason <bdju>namely jami-gnome and aegisub <apteryx>you're the first person to give some feedback on that service :-) Interesting. Seems we should perhaps activate the account always to avoid surprises. <apteryx>note that you could also do: herd enable-acount jami some-account-hash; but it won't persist upon restarting the service <apteryx>viivien: I'm curious about upnp; was it a problem? <roptat>does guix know about gpg signatures? <roptat>also, how do I check a detached signature (.sig file)? <viivien>There are 2 problems that are somehow mixed up: I don’t know whether it was upnp or the duplicate accounts, but my bandwidth usage went up to the point that I would not be able to connect to anything else on the internet (you might see me getting disconnected by timeout from libera.chat), and for my personal situation, I have a libreCMC router that does not provide software for upnp or natpmp, so dring would not be able to use it. <apteryx>roptat: I think at least some updaters try to validate them <apteryx>roptat: you do something like 'gpg --check sig file', IIRC <apteryx>viivien: yeah, same (libreCMC without upnp); but it doesn't create such problem <apteryx>perhaps it was the duplicate accounts <apteryx>we shoud probably guard against this if it can wreak such havoc :-) <apteryx>did you get a chance to try your rendezvous point yet? <bdju>dream feature: guix hint about which packages to skip when something keeps failing so I don't have to figure it out myself <viivien>I tried from my other computer, but we’re on the same network. <viivien>I can see the bandwidth usage, so I’m definitely using it <viivien>(at least, I’m sending and receiving a stream) <viivien>Since the firewall is grossly the same around the rendez-vous and around the whole network, I’m pretty confident the rendez-vous will pass through both <apteryx>it's supposed to pass through anything, eh <viivien>I’m not sure it will pass through the IPv4 NAT, but I hope most people will be using IPv6 <viivien>I’ve even disabled the default TURN settings in jami <viivien>To be honest, I’m not a fan of upnp, so maybe I was too quick to blame it for my other problems. <roptat>I saw a security advisory on openjdk11 by debian, so I updated it to the latest version, but now I'm not sure it's the right version I should be using <roptat>need to check the CVEs to make sure I'm not updating to a vulnerable version <roptat>looks like they affect openjdk7 and 8 too, mh <roptat>lint is not happy, but the CVEs from debian are indeed fixed in the version I update to <roptat>but they only affect openjdk8, so I assume it's ok *apteryx tries to tackle the broken webkitgtk <brendyn>strange that webkit suddenly is broken <brendyn>apteryx, it says it need SOUP 3, but why was it succeeding previously then? <apteryx>to patch arbitrary code execution CVEs <apteryx>avp: does guile-ssh support ssh-ed25519? <apteryx>avp: I think I was testing it wrong yesterday, I'll do some more testing of the patched guile-ssh <robin>"Adam: Debian was this great thing for you and this great community, what’s out there now. If you’re pointing somebody towards a community to grow in?" <robin>"Joey:I honestly have been mulling over that exact question for a year and I haven’t come up with the answers. So I would like to know, I know people who are involved in developing guix, which is nix like distribution, they’re clearly involved in that kind of thing. They have that same kind of feeling that I had back working on Debian." <apteryx>weird, I was trying to configure a new offload machine, but all I get on the remote SSH is: Bye Bye [preauth]; locally guile-ssh says 'denied' when attempting authentication <apteryx>guix offload test says: Access denied for 'publickey'. Authentication that can continue: publickey,password <apteryx>using 'ssh myhost' works, which adds to the mystery <apteryx>(with the exact same key, e.g. specfied with -i) <apteryx>hahaha, my ssh problem was that there was no newline at the end of my plain-file authorized public key snippet <dragestil>has anyone used ansible with a remote guix environment? how do you make ansible source ~/.profile? <apteryx>guix system hosts, I should say. Perhaps you can ask in #ansible, they are usually helpful. <dragestil>ok thanks, i don't have a guix host, and i'm not trying to deploy a system either <dragestil>i'm trying to use ansible to build things on a remote host and then copy the binary to my local machine <dragestil>i suspect most people at #ansible don't have a remote guix environment though *vagrantc would find it hard for ansible to do the right thing on a guix system ... <vagrantc>has a fair number of hard-coded paths it checks for ... although been a while since i looked into the guts of ansible <dragestil>afaik as long as it sources the profile all is good <apteryx>vagrantc: I think the only thing it hard codes is /bin/sh, and that's configurable IIRC <apteryx>well, don't quote me on "the only thing" <apteryx>dragestil: OK; if you are simply building guix packages, you could setup offloading, but I guess you're trying something different? <vagrantc>ansible might have gotten smarter with the python -> python3 transitions all over ... but at one point the python paths were somewhat hardcoded <dragestil>apteryx: what do you mean by setup offloading <vagrantc>depending on what you're trying to do ... you could just install guix on a foreign distro, and then you can offload builds to another machine that then can get installed on your local install <jgart>vagrantc, what happens when guix falls behind on devuan? Is it not possible to update the daemon? <jgart>update to guix-daemon to the latest version if installed via apt, I meant <dragestil>vagrantc: what do you mean by offload builds? <jgart>or how does a user deal with that when it happens and they want the latest guix <vagrantc>jgart: you can either manually build and install guix-daemon, or just rely on the packaged version of guix-daemon <vagrantc>jgart: as i understand it, the guix-daemon doesn't typically *need* to be updated for most builds <jgart>oh ok, so that's one of the cons of installing with apt versus manually with the install script? <apteryx>dragestil: see info '(guix) Daemon Offload Setup' <jgart>I understand your last point, but in those rare cases when a user will need the latest then they'll have to just wait. Is that correct? <vagrantc>dragestil: you run "guix build FOO" on computerA, and it "offloads" the build to computerB which performs most of the build work, and then hands the results back to computerA <vagrantc>jgart: yeah, baring major security issues, not likely to update the guix package in stable releases at all <dragestil>vagrantc: well, in my case I want to build on the computer with guix <dragestil>and i want to run the binary on a computer without guix <vagrantc>dragestil: any reason you can't install guix on the other machine? <dragestil>the other machine already has a rather "full" system <dragestil>guix is much computation for this other machine <vagrantc>what kind of packages are you building with guix? they'll probably pull in a lot of dependencies in order to run resulting binaries build from guix <jgart>has anyone tried running `guix system container` successfully? <jgart>last time I tried I remember it produced a guile script that had to be run as root <jgart>I tried running that but it failed hard. Can't remember now the details. I'll try to reproduce soon. <vagrantc>jgart: i suspect it will be difficult to backport guix to earlier debian(and derivatives), especially when "guix pull && guix build ..." will get you just about whatever you need <dragestil>also i don't have enough space for the guix store <vagrantc>jgart: pretty much just a distro trust path to be able to run guix pull <jgart>But I was curious if anyone has been able to run it succesffully <jgart>vagrantc, what is a trust path? <jgart>not familiar with that phrase if it's a technical one <vagrantc>dragestil: how will you use the packages built on guix on the remote machine? <jgart>vagrantc, where can i find the sources for the guix package definition in debian? <dragestil>vagrantc: by running it? make && make install, then scp / rsync the artefacts to my local machine <jgart>I find it difficult at times to find things on the debian websites. It seems a bit confusing at times <vagrantc>jgart: e.g. you trust your host distro and packages in your host distro to generally be ok, but you don't know how to validate the binary installation of guix ... so it provides a path from "i trust debian, install guix from debian, guix installed from debian knows how to 'guix pull' up to current guix" <dragestil>i'm guessing the guix daemon offload setup only works for some guix specific building <vagrantc>dragestil: but those artifacts will depend on paths in /gnu/store <dragestil>all others find dynamically linked libraries comfortably in the local machine <vagrantc>jgart: the Vcs links should get you what you're looking for <vagrantc>dragestil: you might be able to generate "guix pack" files and copy those, but it will include all the dependencies <vagrantc>dragestil: guix packages don't use system path libraries... <dragestil>right, i'm building with make, rather than guix <vagrantc>how does guix enter into the picture? :) *apteryx added another offload machine to the their fleet <dragestil>well the remote machine is guix environment and ansible won't work without sourcing the profile <jgart>does anyone use the laminar service in guix system? <jgart>M6piz7wk[m], I bought a thinkpad T420s the other day with a nvidia CPU. I had to return. <jgart>The seller didn't specify the GPU and I assumed it was intel... <M6piz7wk[m]>wait is tehre a libre hardware portable device that you can recommend for guix <M6piz7wk[m]>as i don't need dGPU since i do cloud gaming and alike <jgart>any of the libreboot or coreboot machines will be good <jgart>libreboot will be better but they are much older and lower spec <jgart>I have a T420s with Intel i5-2520M (4) @ 3.200GHz and 16GB RAM <jgart>they're not completely libre. The above machine can be osbooted though <jgart>If you'd like a mostly libre machine down to the bios then maybe get a T400 or X200 and put libreboot on it <jgart>The latest version is Libreboot 20210522, released on 22 May 2021. <jgart>and with patience and soldering skills (or money) you can have it <M6piz7wk[m]>i have patience and superior soldering and reflowing skills.. don't look at my public issue tracker but you said mostly free which is not acceptable.. i need full freedom with ECAD files freely accesible <jgart>you might have to wait for guix on riscv then <parnikkapore>Hi, is there a way to connect to a WPA2-Enterprise connection during the Guix System installation? <parnikkapore>Already tried to manually run wpa_supplicant, but that ended in no addresses being reachable <M6piz7wk[m]><jgart> "you might have to wait for..." <- Like my pinecil running Guix? 🌟_🌟 <nckx>parnikkapore: I can't help you with WPA2E itself (doesn't it require external certs &c.?), but do you understand what wpa_supplicant is & isn't? I.e., you also ran a DHCP client afterwards or otherwise (manually) configured the interface? <nckx>(I don't know which parts are relevant & you'll have to manually ignore all the systemd-specific junk, sorry.) <parnikkapore>re: dhcp Found that out the hard way, routes got set up, but unreachable <nckx>I've only ever connected to such networks from the safety & comfort of NetworkManager. <M6piz7wk[m]>ehh.. did i just figured out the hard way that making a backup of ~/.gnupg is not sufficient for the key backup <M6piz7wk[m]>kreyren@leonid ~$ gpg --allow-secret-key-import --import ~/.gnupg/krey_privkey.acs *nckx doesn't even have that file 🤷 <M6piz7wk[m]>nckx: sending you my privkey so that you can cease the control over my software empire eh? <nckx>I would love to cease control if I knew how, freudian typoperson. <M6piz7wk[m]>what kind of villan do you think i am to tell you my evil plan?!! <nckx>The kind I grew up with in Saturday morning cartoons. <M6piz7wk[m]>good thing i realized that after i removed the private key *M6piz7wk[m] goes to cry in the corner while pretenting to be positive <nckx>~ λ grep ^pinentry .gnupg/gpg-agent.conf <nckx>pinentry-program /run/current-system/profile/bin/pinentry-tty <nckx>In case that's an issue. ☝ <nckx>I'm sure ~/.guix-profile also works, my point is GPG doesn't (always?) seem to auto-find it. *nckx starts drywalling off the corner to get rid of the sobbing noises. <M6piz7wk[m]>> gpg: agent_genkey failed: No such file or directory <M6piz7wk[m]>... and file a very angry bug to GPG about useless error message <M6piz7wk[m]>kreyren 8018 0.0 0.0 228556 3600 ? Ss Oct31 0:10 /home/kreyren/.guix-profile/bin/gpg-agent --sh --daemon <M6piz7wk[m]>kreyren 11725 0.0 0.0 6380 1848 pts/6 S+ 08:44 0:00 grep --color=auto gpg-agent <viivien>Hi guix! I see that webkitgtk is now part of gnuzilla ^^ <viivien>I’m trying to get rid of my other connection <M6piz7wk[m]><viivien> "Hi guix! I see that webkitgtk is..." <- Hopefully that will result in more competent upstream that doesn't let broken code in the main branch :p <M6piz7wk[m]><viivien> "I’m trying to get rid of my..." <- i see that you've adapted the kreyren convension of the IRC nicknames.. nice <viivien>I’m using an obscure IRC bridge with XMPP and I would like to quit it, but I don’t know how to do it. Has someone ever managed to exit irc.hmm.st? <M6piz7wk[m]>Yes, all hail the mighty power of @appservice:libera.chat <M6piz7wk[m]>it's amazing how well this systems runs on Guix.. no more 3Ghz spikes! <M6piz7wk[m]>the laptop sounds so happy without the need to constantly bump up the fan o.o <M6piz7wk[m]>i don't even get CPU utilization that high like i did on nixos ^=^ <M6piz7wk[m]>even the icefox takes less processing resources with the same config! <nckx>I doubt Guix can take much credit for the latter even if it's measurable, but yay. <M6piz7wk[m]>nckx: you joined after i said that it's significant improvement from NixOS that was constantly keeping the system hot af with CPU spikes to 3Ghz O.o <nckx>I read everything. I have little birds. *M6piz7wk[m] goes to remove the bird house from his property <nckx>100% at idle (set! words meaningless) is not normal even for NixOS or systemd though. <nckx>M6piz7wk[m]: Futile. Birds are mother nature's drones. *M6piz7wk[m] starts packing his things and moves to his underground bunker <M6piz7wk[m]>that thing is getting more and more useful by the day~ <M6piz7wk[m]>nckx: systemd does that on all my systems it's terrible <nckx>That's a bit weird. I can only think of something like jitterentropy that would drain your CPU for entropy, and even that isn't supposed to happen. <moshy>Morning, Guix. I made an attempt to get the easyrpg 0.7.x branch building locally, but currently stuck on ALSA stuff. A patch was made upstream but unsure how to integrate it with the source i'm building against. <M6piz7wk[m]>even the temperature is much more managable.. i don't have to make a bigger hole in my system! <nckx>Hush, no sharing the secret link that's in the topic. <abrenon>I have absolutely no problem with that : ) <abrenon>I hope you had time to make it comfy <nckx>It apparently has ethernet. <abrenon>has it started already ? I thought it was only 2021 yet <nckx>‘I just want to hug your wungs’ :3 <nckx>If that's a call for help, it helps if you share code/errors. If it's just an update: thanks for working on it! <nckx>Well, thanks either way. <nckx>M6piz7wk[m] is always a call for help. <M6piz7wk[m]>bcs not enough people give me virtual headpats and cuddles u.u *abrenon headpats M6piz7wk[m] <nckx>(You might now this already, but the ‘liblcf’ at the bottom does nothing, moshy. Much like M6piz7wk[m] goggles.) <moshy>So all I needed was just the one after. That's just the change I made for building locally <nckx>Let's put the knives away. #guix is a knife-fight-free zone. *nckx adds .patch to the URL like a total hacker. <nckx>Sounds like you're as good as done? <moshy>that patch is what i need to get the build hopefully past the configure step. i added fmt as a new dependency and updated stuff like urls and hashes <nckx>vivien: Is OK it has padlock. <vivien>This website is secure, look, there’s a huge green padlock in the middle of the page. <nckx>Oh wait that's the Trust Seal. <nckx>I wouldn't be paying with credit card otherwise. <vivien>I’m trying the webkitzilla update, I’ll tell you if it works :) <vivien>You as in the whole #guix channel <nckx>vivien: Stupid question: what's a webkitzilla? <vivien>It’s webkitgtk being adopted in the gnuzilla project <vivien>nckx, isn’t that automatic if you use the certbot service? <M6piz7wk[m]><vivien> "This website is secure, look..." <- i prefer red padlock with a 45 degree line across it! <nckx>vivien: <It’s webkitgtk being adopted in the gnuzilla project> Nope I'm still confused. Adopted how? Firefox still doesn't use WebKit does it? Or has humanity finally lost? <vivien>nckx, in my configuration, I have set all nginx-server-configurations to listen only to 443 ssl, and then the certbot service adds a listen to 80 that automatically does the redirection. <vivien>nckx, that’s just because the update is published on the gnuzilla-updates branch <nckx>vivien: Certbot renews certificates which is orthogonal to nginx redirection? Or WDYM? <nckx>vivien: So I know there's a babby's first service extension in Guix that does yucky things with nginx/certbot (I am, you might surmise, not a fan) but berlin doesn't use that anyway. <vivien>Certbot needs to hack the configuration on port 80 anyway to handle the handshake, so letting it do a redirection is not that orthogonal <nckx>I see. We disagree on certbot's need to touch nginx's private parts but that's OK. berlin doesn't use the certbot-configuration-thingy anyway. I'm not sure if the current configuration could easily be ported to that if we wanted (mainly because, AFAICT, it's a copy-cargo-pasted mess.) <nckx>Renewal is just certbot renew --webroot --webroot-path /var/www in a cronjob :) <nckx>Looks like webkitgtk is fixed on master now. <vivien>(I was still compiling some additional rust) <vivien>So, I can pull from master now :) <nckx>Just hearing the background conversation here yesterday gave me a headache. Unicode. Circles. Invisible ghosts. <nckx>vivien: Could I nitpick and ask for a few-line comment from someone who presumably understood the bug? Especially whose bug it actually is, and how long we're expected to carry that phase. <nckx>Hmm. I have complex feelings about Unicode that can only be expressed with emoji. I do not think it evil. Merely cursed. <nckx>Complex systems are hard. Simplistic systems inadequate. Thanks for coming to my TEDx talk. Please leave a tip in the hat and don't steal my sleepin' box (I uses it fer sleepin'). <nckx>However: first person to get a ZWJ checked into a suckless projects gets to borrow it for a night. <nckx>SJW with a Zorro mask. Or: zero-width joiner. <nckx>Not to be confused with a zero-width non-joiner. <nckx>Look, I didn't say it was sane, just not quite evil. <abrenon>dstolfa: thanks for the link, very interesting read <vivien>abrenon, but did you really read what was written in the PDF? Or were you fooled by some advanced unicode trickery? <M6piz7wk[m]>How complicated it would be to make GNU to provide a server hosting <abrenon>^^ at least, I liked what I read and understood of it <abrenon>even if that only existed briefly in my mind as a sideeffect of a hack <M6piz7wk[m]>sideeffect of a hack? Are you a victim of my brainwashing~ <abrenon>depends if you and dstolfa are the same person and/or if you have any way to alter the PDF served at the link above : ) <abrenon>"vim, for example, defaults to showing Bidi overrides as numerical code points rather than applying the Bidi algorithm" : I'm safe (I would've been very surprised to learn that vim rendered special stuff like joiners in a graphical way) <vivien>With a comment explaining the fix for guile-gi, I notice that the web interface for the issue puts the combining character on the next character, not the correct one: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/51447 <abrenon>the first one I see would be that you and dstolfa would be the same person, but I'd need of course them to say the same <nckx>vivien: Isn't that purely your browser? <vivien>I’ll try with the new and shiny webkit to check <vivien>Once I’m finished downloading it ^^ <nckx>Mind you, there's <your mailer> <GNU's MX> <the entire GNU debbugs stack oh god I dunno probably like Perl or whatever> <mu> <Mumi: Guile!> <your browser> that could go wrong. <abrenon>vivien: what do you mean ? the fact that the closing double-quote looks a bit melted ? <vivien>◌̀, in the issue (circle, accent and comma) are rendered as the circle, then the accent on the comma <nckx>Which, by the way, my HexChat['s GUI toolkit] does too. <vivien>Oh, my hexchat puts the accent on the circle and the comma after it <nckx>I forgot to put that in my chain from hell above. <nckx>Hmm, let me relaunch HexChat with LC_ALL=teh-unicodez to make sure. <vivien>Maybe that’s a font bug? I don’t know how that kind of magic works. <nckx>Possibly interestingly, HexChat launched from my terminal loads my backlock at about half the speed of the same HexChat launched from dmenu. I have no idea what is up with *that*. <nckx>No, no it is not, please do not guix reconfigure your system with "teh unicodez" as locale. <nckx>Something will probably break. <nckx>en_IE.utf8 if you tolerate the English in everything but their funnymoney. *M6piz7wk[m] got depressed trying to implement his system management in guile and is now watching rando videos <nckx>I think it also sets sane units compared to en_GB. None of this nautical toodlepips business. <nckx>M6piz7wk[m]: ☹ From what I saw yesterday, I think you simply tried to jump over the learning curve on a flaming motorbike, without understanding some key concepts. Taking a break is probably a good idea, but no need to be depressed. Onwards & upwards. <M6piz7wk[m]>it would be done and deployed already if it was simple as just jumping on a flaming motorbike i was quite good at that as a kiddo *M6piz7wk[m] goes to find some video course on GNU Guile <nckx>You were raised wildly irresponsibly. <abrenon>what with the price of oil and all ! <M6piz7wk[m]>... as long as you don't fall and dodge those metally things that try to break your head off ^=^ <M6piz7wk[m]>wait i can use guix to build a rustlang without using cargo <abrenon>in theory, you could use guix to build a motorbike directly in flame, without having to ignite it <nckx>Oh god. I tried to save vivien's patch in emacs. It asks me which encoding to use. This is going to go well. <nckx>‘However, each of them encountered characters it couldn’t encode:’ <abrenon>just like vim, safe from the start : ) <nckx>vim is indeed the dd of editors. <abrenon>*reply on the code review*: "could you upload a png rendering of your malware ? I couldn't load it in my text editor to get fooled properly" <nckx>So +1 emacs over ‘real’ GTK appz. <nckx>Emacs is probably right that the encoding is funked, it's just adorably naive in thinking that any human ever will, deep down, know the right answer either. <nckx>‘I tried things until it worked <ISSUE RESLOVED>’ <nckx>vivien: Teensy nitpicks: ‘guile-gi: do the foo’ → ‘gnu: guile-gi: Do the foo.’ Ditto for the full sentence after ‘:’. Thanks for adding a comment! <nckx>Oh, it's for c-u-f, derp. <vivien>It shouldn’t be a pb on master, but it’s only necessary on c-u-f. <nckx>I pushed from my c-u-f worktree… to master 😒 <vivien>So... You finally merged c-u-f into master?? <nckx>ᵖˡᵉᵃˢᵉ ᵈᵒⁿ'ᵗ ᵗʳᶦᵍᵍᵉʳ ᵗʰᵉ ⁿᶦᵍʰᵗᵐᵃʳᵉˢ <efraim>nckx: I'm merging master into core-updates-frozen <nckx>You got me at 90% of make authenticate. <nckx>MongoDB isn't FSDG-mentionable, right? *nckx finally finishing davidl's patches. <dstolfa>nckx: i think they use SSPL, which is non-free <vivien>Are you packaging the mangodb fork? <nckx>Absolutely not, it's just mentioned in a package description. <nckx>OK dstolfa that was my understanding as well. It's not dual/open-core licenced or anything borderline like that. <vivien>Guix search returns 4 results: python{,2}-pymongo, unqlite and ghc-persistent <vivien>That match mongodb in their description <nckx>The mention here was ‘gratuitous’ in that it was just given as an example of a database (‘SQLAlchemy, MongoDB, …’) where many better ones exist. I don't know if the others are problematic. They might well be. I thought it was never acceptable to refer to non-free software by name, but I didn't go to FSDG University. <nckx>Stupid of me, because the one I did attend sure's hell wasn't free. <apteryx>was clang needed to fix the webkitgtk build? <apteryx>I'm tempted to revert that bit on c-u-f-b-c as it wasn't needed with libsoup3 <roptat>tricon, what does "ip r" tell you with this config? <roptat>(also, which architecture? maybe there's an issue in guile-netlink, I haven't tested it outside of an x86-64 system) <efraim>roptat: I've queued guile-netlink to build on powerpc-linux, have to build a few packages to get there first though <tricon>roptat: I just sent some details to the email address for the issue. ***wielaard is now known as mjw
<tricon>(also, my email is probably moderated as this is my first submission.) <nckx>Nothing yet (or it's already been approved). <attila_lendvai>not much is happening with the patches i have sent. is this a special time currently for guix? (e.g. core-updates is almost merged and it occupies every comitter?) or is this the usual pace i should calculate with? <roptat>attila_lendvai, sometimes patches are forgotten :/ <roptat>don't hesitate to ping if you don't get answers after a week <vivien>What I usually do is send a bug report, then if I know how to solve it, send a patch. So, almost none of my patches have a "patch:" tag <attila_lendvai>i'm doing my best to learn debbugs, but honestly, it takes almost as much effort to send the patches as it is to learn how make them, and actually make them. i know it'll get better, but still... <roptat>yeah, just sending a patch is easy, but other than that I'm also lost :p <roptat>tricon, I get "network is unavailable" errors with guile-netlink, something must be wrong, or I'm already not using it properly ^^' <nckx>attila_lendvai: Then you're doing it wrong. For single patches, it's as easy as ‘git send-email -1 [--to=guix-patches@, but that can be set as repository default]’. Compare that to the convoluted flow of, e.g., GitHub. <tricon>roptat: I get some "RTNETLINK answers: File exists" and "RTNETLINK answers: Network is unreachable" outputs when restarting networking. Unless I first: "sudo ip addr flush dev <interface>", then I don't get the "File exists" outputs. <attila_lendvai>nckx, it's not only the sending itself, but the entire process of keeping track of them, tagging them, etc. there's much to simplify/criticize about the github workflow, but it was less effort to learn it. but thanks for mentioning the default, i'll set that at least <roptat>tricon, I think there's an issue with guile-netlink. I can "ip r add 192.168.2.5/32 via 192.168.2.1" for instance, but I can't call (route-add "192.168.2.5/32" #:via "192.168.2.1") which is supposed to be identical <nckx>You track them with branches. I'm not sure what kind of tagging you mean, so can't suggest a way. <tricon>Looks like my email was accepted by debbugs according to my mail server logs. It has details on how the new static-networking-service-type appends addresses rather than replacing them. <tricon>So if you were to change your static-networking-service-type addresses, they would be appended to the interfaces with previous, defunct routes left in place. <nckx>attila_lendvai: Or do you mean tagging mails? <nckx>Well, ‘issues’, whatever :) <dissent>what is the guix equivalent for `systemctl poweroff`? <nckx>There is loginctl poweroff which I have never once used (it has many other exciting verbs, too!). <nckx>But yeah, don't reinvent halt, just halt, solved. <nckx>The leisure class has their own command. <abrenon>by the way, the formulation of the question itself is pretty alarming <abrenon>the commands suggested aren't specific to guix or any other distros, they are much older than most distributions, and usual init systems have no problem working with them <dstolfa>i feel like the git-send-email workflow is "weird" to many people because they get taught the github workflow and the idea of pull requests rather than the intended git workflow <dstolfa>email certainly leaves a lot to be desired, but what doesn't? :) *nckx looks whistfully outside at the downpour; no gardening today. <tricon>dstolfa: That's a good observation. There is a very strong association between Git and GitHub. This the latters practices and protocols become ubiquitous. <abrenon>systemctl poweroff is just one solution to reinvent the wheel, proposed by one particular init system, not a standard in any sense <nckx>So is there also systemctl halt? And more seriously, does any systemd distro *not* provide halt/poweroff/shutdown symlinks/scripts? Just the fourfold increase it keystrokes seems worth it. <efraim>switching between guix and debian I always get confused between debian's "shutdown now" and guix's "shutdown" <abrenon>I think they provide it, I'm just appall to see RedHat managed to market systemd well enough to be seen as a kind of reference, from which some exotic system choose (actively) to depart <abrenon>efraim: doesn't "halt" work everywhere ? <vivien>"halt" has well-known unsolvable problems. <vivien>(not sure if I’m doing the joke correctly though) <podiki[m]>can't help but think of "halt and catch fire" (the phrase and the show) *mekeor[m] uses "loginctl poweroff" or so <dstolfa>abrenon: it kind of is the standard today on various GNU/Linux systems today, so it's not technically wrong, but systemd comes with its own share of annoying problems (which tend to be implied by linux absolutely not being designed for such programs) <tricon>Re: GitHub vs. Email, I nearly always prefer long-term "simplicity". In other words, something is "simple" in that it requires more effort upfront but includes transparency, ease, and predictability long-term. <vivien>To be honest, I barely understand the problem, because I click the shutdown button in the graphical user interface, and 90% of the time what I want is reboot anyway. <vivien>On the pull request vs send patches issue, I’m more on the side of the pull request, because I can fix errors more easily without polluting the discussion. <abrenon>dstolfa: I know it has become pervasive in so many distributions, and I understand this is the reason behind the way the question was asked, but I cannot help finding it sad <nckx>From systemd's inception to when I stopped following a few years ago I've not seen marketing have much if anything to do with it. systemd met a need, a sore need, and it met it well. Just not in a way some people like (part of its allure to distro maintainers was: you no longer have to be init system maintainers too). It annoys the same people annoyed at Al's Pizza not wanting to run their own e-mail server. <nckx>It's marketing as in ‘having a product that people want’, not ‘an DIY system that nerds find elegant’. <dstolfa>nckx: i mostly find systemd annoying because they didn't push for more invasive approaches into the kernel that would prevent a ton of stability issues in the long run. instead, they tried to shove a lot of things into userspace that breaks in very creative ways <nckx>Hey we agree on a thing. <efraim>I don't know that I've ever used halt from the terminal <nckx>The Linux kernel's userspace fetishism is its own thing, but it sure feeds many different pathologies that would otherwise be contained. <dstolfa>nckx: i think we agree on many things, but irc is a poor medium! :P <nckx>There is some irony in that somewhere. <efraim>is 'loginctl logout' a command? if so I'm pretty sure it works on Guix, or at least in enlightenment on gx <nckx>It's not supposed to be… <nckx>I just meant I don't recognise it (which means nothing) and it's not documented (which means marginally more). <nckx>tricon: At last! Your mail has arrived and has been appropriately dealt with. <efraim>looks like I mis-remembered. I should probably go through and fix whatever I did with systemctl and enlightenment to make it do The Right Thing™ <abrenon>/gnu/store/hqs1ndwqasvfc78kx70gpk4k1rmqb64s-elogind-243.7/bin/loginctl <nckx>abrenon: $(realpath $(which loginctl)) logout → Unknown operation logout. <abrenon>I was surprised to find it autocompleting in my shell too <nckx>I wish I could preserve the red formatting. <abrenon>I have no idea what's supposed to work, I was just amazed to find something executable with that name in my path on guix <abrenon>because I don't know systemd well enough and thought it was something really deep within systemd, I didn't expect it to be available in a "de-systemded" software like elogind is IIRC <abrenon>pretty neat to have list-seats working ^^ <tricon>Can you imagine... a world in which we can manage everything with Guile? <nckx>SEAT: seat0 1 seats listed. <dstolfa>only 1 seat? you can't invite friends? :( <nckx>abrenon: Do you ever multiseat? <nckx>dstolfa: If you're sharing the same seat you're not ‘friends’. <dstolfa>surely you'd need multiple seats then <nckx>abrenon: On Guix, I mean. <abrenon>no, no never, I just find the concept weirdly abstract and hard to grasp ^^ <dstolfa>or are you expecting everyone to share a seat with you? :) <abrenon>so anyway, thanks for discussing interesting stuff because I learnt something <nckx>abrenon: The eudev that Guix uses is also a forcefully emancipated systemd-udevd, by the way (though not directly by Guix). You probably knew, but here's in case. <nckx>There was a mild to-do recently because the maintainer stepped down, but at least Devuan intends to maintain it. <nckx>(define maintain keep-up-with-the-stream) <abrenon>hmmmm, thanks for your remark, I think I was more or less confusing udev and login services (although I think what they do is pretty clear to me) <abrenon>so both eudev and elogind were stripped from systemd ? <abrenon>hmmm I had never considered the thought itself, so I think I was kinda confusing them both <nckx>Thanks for reminding me of seats. ***talas_ is now known as talas
<abrenon>this place is really nice when the bad people aren't around : ) <apteryx>what is the use of sexp->gexp in the meson-build-system, for things that out to be strings such as strip-flags? <apteryx>apparently at optimization, as f95fc73248e81a65e84798a344e0c781c1121f76 hints at <apteryx>seems a leaky implementation detail to me, although I'm no G-Expression expert. *apteryx removes test-target and adds test-options for the meson-build-system on cufbc <jgart>Does anyone happen to know of a rust package that would serve as a template for packaging helix? <jgart>helix is currently packaged in parabola <jgart>I'd need to package tree-sitter stuff <drakonis>package the remaining rust dependencies required <jgart>It contains two cargo.toml files atleast with deps <jgart>how are those handled by the build system in guix <apteryx>our docker service seems to be triggering lots of spurrious networkmanager activity such as: Nov 3 12:39:17 localhost NetworkManager[686]: <info> [1635957557.1543] device (vethdceb10a): state change: unmanaged -> unavailable (reason 'managed', sys-iface-state: 'external') <apteryx>may be the reason my ssh connection keeps getting reset to that machine <apteryx>also, our docker is too old, which creates problems with recent glibc (fedora 35 for example) <jgart>yup I know to use that one (sorry if it wasn't clear) but what I'm asking is how to deal with multiple .toml files that contain deps and are located in various subdirs <jgart>what do you mostly like to work on for guix? <nckx>apteryx: Are we not setting unmanaged-devices (or its system equivalent, sorry I've no idea how that works) correctly? veth* definitely belongs in the ignore list. <drakonis>well, i'm doing some guile bits that arent packaging related <nckx>‘[unmanaged-devices is a] keyfile-plugin-specific option[s], and is normally only used when you are not using any other distro-specific plugin’ — I don't know what distro-specific plugins are. <nckx>But you can try unmanaged-devices=interface-name:docker*;interface-name:veth*;interface-name:br-*;interface-name:vmnet*;interface-name:vboxnet* to see if it works for you. <jgart>feel free to pick it up if you're interested and have the time <jgart>there a few things left to do as per the issue thread <apteryx>nckx: perhaps! my knowledge about networkmanager is near nil <apteryx>I've stop dockerd on that machine, to see if the connection will become stable again ***lis` is now known as litharge
<jab>I'm re-thinking my implementation of the opensmtpd-service with (guix records)... <vivien>I think goops is more powerful, but I know it’s not an universal opinion <nckx>Oh dear, what are you about to get yourself into now… ☺ <M6piz7wk[m]>ehh so do i get a service after i run `guix install docker` locally? <vivien>M6piz7wk[m], are you on guix system? <nckx>No, M6piz7wk[m]. Packages and services are completely separate. ‘guix install package’ never involves a service. <nckx>(System) services are only what is listed in the (services …) field of your operating system. <M6piz7wk[m]>so i have to do `guix install docker-service-type` ? <vivien>There’s a docker service that you need to activate in your system configuration <nckx>No, add it to your system .scm and reconfigure. <vivien>You should have a file named /etc/config.scm *M6piz7wk[m] doesn't know how to list available services <vivien>M6piz7wk[m], guix system search docker <nckx>M6piz7wk[m]: ‘guix system search REGEX’ <nckx>Or vivien's weird alternative yes. <vivien>It won’t give you all the configuration options <jab>nckx: yeah.... let me send you a paste bin. I'd love your thoughts... <nckx>All services should also be documented in the manual. <nckx>Somewhat ordered, e.g., ‘Base Services’, ‘Virtualization Services’ (will probably include Docker), etc. <jab>nckx, It'll take me 10+ minutes to send you said pastebin. <nckx>OK, I should note that I'm not able to concentrate deeply on anything (work). <vivien>M6piz7wk[m], looks correct to me <nckx>I am a lean mean singletaskin' machine. <vivien>Once you reconfigure (guix system reconfigure that-file.scm), you can control the docker daemon with shepherd I think <vivien>Look at herd status, it should have an entry with something like docker <vivien>I don’t use specification->package, so I don’t know exactly how that works <vivien>I usually do (packages `(,nss-certs ,docker-cli ,@%base-packages)) <vivien>Ah in the manual it has an example <vivien> (list "glibc-locales" "nss-certs" "nss"))) <vivien>But you also need %base-packages, so that would be (packages (append (map ... ...) %base-packages)) <vivien>Of course, texinfo indexing is certainly superior <vivien>In theory they are limited, and in practice every system has its own syntax so I’m always wondering what characters I should quote and how. <nckx>I think we're space-vs-tabs away from having seen all major religions pass by #guix today. <vivien>Fortunately, guix style will crush all heretic indentation religion. *M6piz7wk[m] wasn't able to figure out how to do ` (packages (append (map ... ...) %base-packages))` so he did `(packages (append (list nss-certs docker) %base-packages))` <vivien>guix system search docker gave you a hint that the docker service is in (gnu services docker) <vivien>So you need to include that module. <vivien>You can also add it to the list of (use-service-modules ...) at the top of the file <vivien>(use-service-modules ... docker) <apteryx>by the way, w.r.t. to my claims that a trailing newline was required for authorized SSH keys yesterday, that turned untrue; it was a silly copy-pasting error on my part somewhere else in the key. <apteryx>grr, 563 - CMake.FileDownload (Failed) <vivien>M6piz7wk[m], you need to run guix pull <vivien>That’s the webkitgtk build failure that was breaking everything for the last few hours (days?) <M6piz7wk[m]>the one i tried to fix but didn't and looked like incompetent yes <vivien>Fixing a web browser is not something I would even attempt <lilyp>M6piz7wk[m]: webkit is currently broken, we're working on it *apteryx adds it to %common-disabled-tests <vivien>Replace it with the appropriate URL for savannah <lilyp>And I only just now got back to say that it's still broken on i686 <lilyp>(at least it was last I checked) <vivien>It’s fixed on master, and Efrain Flashner merged it into core-updates-frozen <jab>those are my thoughts about how I might change the service. <nckx>M6piz7wk[m]: It's not the ideal time to point this out but Guix doesn't have {un,}stable channels. c-u/master don't indicate stability and are often counterintuitive to those who think they do. <jab>nckx: and it's ok if you can't concentrate too much. Just having being able to think outloud to someone else helps me think better. <nckx>‘completely rethink’ ‘don't feel obligated to, like, think hard’ <lilyp>nckx: it's still an architecture guix supports tho :P <vivien>M6piz7wk[m], if the commit is too unstable, rollback to a better commit :) <nckx>lilyp: It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular but least of all you 😉 I've seen people not realise i686 != x86_64 when it's not that clear from context. <nckx>Master is the only supported branch. <M6piz7wk[m]>vivien: what about vulnerabilities and stuff then.. Like using latest linux kernel is insane O.o <vivien>You have a selection of kernels to choose from <M6piz7wk[m]>aaaa i have to do my own stabilization?! do you know how much effort that takes! <apteryx>M6piz7wk[m]: to be honest, the master branch is usually just fine <nckx>Master is not intended to break, but when it does, it is supposed to be fixed quickly. Sorry M6piz7wk[m] we simply do not have anything near the staffing to maintain a stable branch. It's an order of maginute more work than people think. <apteryx>and for the rare cases where something breaks (webkitgtk was a prime example of a grand scale breakage; that's been rare) <apteryx>you can use an older commit for a little while <drakonis>pinning packages on guix is also pretty easy <nckx><do you know how much effort that takes!> Yes. Yes we do ☺ <M6piz7wk[m]>nckx: So if you get more people then the stable channel would be a thing? and how much more of my students do i have to teach guile to <nckx>As many as it takes to maintain a stable channel? So your minions can show the project, look, here's a stable channel, it doesn't utterly suck, bless it, and then Guix might. It's really not an answerable question posed like that. <nckx>Not sure who you expected to do the work but seems it was not-you. Sorry about that. *nckx totally wants an army of elves^Wstudents too. <M6piz7wk[m]>No i happy to work just want to focus on maintaining the servers instead of stable channel as there is only so much i can do myself x.x <M6piz7wk[m]>well at least not fully focusing on the stable channel <vivien>As a total amateur, I don’t exactly know what you mean by stable <nckx>(vivien brings up the elephant in the room, nckx quietly leaves) <apteryx>anyone knonws how to fix this? ../../../texlive-20210325-source/texk/web2c/mplibdir/svgout.w:64:10: fatal error: mplibps.h: No such file or directory <M6piz7wk[m]>meaning no random vulnerabilities from a software release that focuses it's security on a specific release e.g. Linux using LTS instead of experimenting and having a laxed QA in comparison to non-LTS <apteryx>M6piz7wk[m]: do you know where CVEs are typically fixed first? yes, the main dev tree. <vivien>Isn’t that the role of the upstream developers to provide releases with only security patches? <M6piz7wk[m]>no first they are fixed in LTS with Sh@%^ hit the fan priority and then main dev tree last time i checked O.o <vivien>If they make "stable" releases, they can get included in guix, like linux-libre LTS <vivien>You can install linux-libre 4.4.290 if you wish *M6piz7wk[m] prefers upstream security over whatever fedora does and spreads on the rest of the FLOSS <apteryx>M6piz7wk[m]: not sure about linux specifically, but with many projects they don't even bother backporting to older branches (webkitgtk?) <M6piz7wk[m]>vivien: can i somehow specify that it should only be LTS without hardcoding the version <M6piz7wk[m]>apteryx: ye it's suboptimal i wish there was a standard by FSF or something for security.. but that's what threat modeling is for in production <vivien>There’s a "linux-libre-lts" variable in (gnu packages linux) <vivien>You find it by doing "guix edit linux-libre", then scroll down a few screens <apteryx>hmm, even after stopping dockerd networkmanager is still messing up with connections <apteryx>resets my ssh connection every 10 minutes or so <drakonis>i remember seeing a package someone made <apteryx>never had this problem until I last deployed and rebooted <apteryx>the machine is on commit 641fd253b88274c54d2428625db51899b86df9f9 <apteryx>it could be that texlive-bin fails to build non-deterministically in parallel; I'm attempting to rebuild it now. <nckx>jab: Not debating for the moment whether ‘I'll have this:’ is what we'd want: how is this incompatible with (guix records)? Can things get recursive? <apteryx>interesting, my ssh disconnections seem to come from my ssh client rather than the server/network <apteryx>localhost sshd[22816]: Received disconnect from 127.0.0.1 port 60486:11: disconnected by user *M6piz7wk[m] just had a minor heart attack thinking that he forgot his decryption key, but he just typoed it <apteryx>perhaps a new thing with openssh 8.8p1, but that machine is the only one it's happening with <davidl>It looks great and seems very useful. <nckx>apteryx: I'd start by ruling out TCPKeepAlive (on by default) and making sure the ServerAlive* options (off by default) aren't enabled. Both on client and server. <nckx>jab: Is your assumption/insight (☺) that you can safely group all lines of a certain type together, in order, based on documentation and/or code and/or observation? <nckx>It's a great improvement but we have to make sure that future OpenSMTPds won't suddenly allow, I dunno, pki lines to refer to listen-on lines or something equally silly. <nckx>I *think* all counterexamples are silly, in which case we're good. <nckx>davidl: The discussion isn't really alive at this time. <nckx>It's either dead or in cryosleep depending on you PoV. <davidl>nckx: ok. Im sorry the project needs more staff and/or money to have more maintainers. <nckx>I don't personally think money is the issue but that's not a thought-out Guix statement, just me. <vivien>If you have too much money, give it to me ^^ *M6piz7wk[m] wonders if there is a limit on the encryption key as he knows a lot of song lyrics *nckx has kicked vivien (Apologies for the scammer. Please ignore them! Give it to me.) <vivien>Nevermind, I’ll continue selling the guix commits as NFTs <nckx><manpower> which money can buy (before someone very clever points that out) but not the kind of reliable-income-stream money we have. <nckx>We have a lot of machine-buying money. We don't really have people-hiring money. <M6piz7wk[m]>vivien: /me goes to send and email on licensing@FSF.org <vivien>"Today’s commit is sponsored by N*rdVPN" <nckx>Turns out colohosting humans is costly. <nckx>Is that some Guix pun I'm too posh to understand? <vivien>That’s not a pun, that’s just me putting an asterisk so as to distract web crawlers <jab>nckx: I think both ways are compatible with guix records. <jab>I have currently coded the service to use the "instead of" bits of code. <nckx>Then I interpreted ‘I'm re-thinking my implementation of the opensmtpd-service with (guix records)’ wrong. <jab>nckx. Yup. I'll still use (guix records). :) <jab>I'm just re-thinking the "syntax" of the service. <nckx>What you currently have is what I would have written BTW, as I think Guix services ought to faithfully wrap the native syntax whenever possible (implement alternative simple APIs on top of that — fine). <jab>nckx: that's high praise! <nckx>I also see the allure of going deeper. <nckx>How were you thinking of labling these… content-addressed? thingies? <nckx>Ah, damn, have to go :-/ Sorry! TTYL can't unfortunately say when byye <jab>nckx: me too. Part of my goal, is to make this service dumb proof. eg: If you define a table with no values, you'll get an error message like, "<opensmtpd-table>"'s fieldname "values" cannot be left empty. <jab>sneek: later tell nckx that's he is an awesome human being. <efraim>roptat: guile-netlink builds successfully on powerpc-linux <roptat>yeah, but I was more wondering about whether it would run and work correctly <roptat>in the mean time I managed to test in on armhf, so it should be good <roptat>although endianness might be an issue too <efraim>debian big endian machines are supposed to be getting guile-3.0.7 soon™ so I at least feel accomplished there <roptat>can I pass a .drv from a machine to another, so the other can build it? <lilyp>you might want to try doing so via `guix copy', but I guess that'd copy the thing itself too <roptat>I'm trying to implement the poor's man offloading ^^' <roptat>where I can't ssh to the build machine, but I can ssh from the build machine <apteryx>roptat: you could reverse forward a port <florhizome[m]>I was thinking, I could just build the meson update with the new patch from c-u-f... if I just place the patch like it is in master it doesn’t find it.. <florhizome[m]>* has mixed to bad experiences with file-like objects so far.. <roptat>florhizome[m], put patches in gnu/packages/patches/ <roptat>add them to the list in gnu/local.mk <roptat>and use them with search-patches <vivien>roptat, if the machine where the .drv is an authorized substitute for the machine to build, if you do guix build <the>.drv and it does not exist on the build machine, it will be downloaded from the substitutes machine. <roptat>yeah, but then built on te substitute machine, which is not what I want <roptat>guix copy worked well, I'll stick with that <vivien>No, it will be built on the other machine <roptat>ah right, substitute, not offload <roptat>well, in my case it's not a substitutes server, which settles things :p <M6piz7wk[m]>is there a name for the term `package and services` on guix? *M6piz7wk[m] doesn't like `derivations` as that might imply other things <roptat>no, "packages and services" it is <roptat>derivations are much lower level <podiki[m]>no such thing for docs to be too verbose? (nothing wrong with adding a summary or short version too) <M6piz7wk[m]>and expect the end-user to already be confident in guix and guile x.x <M6piz7wk[m]>bcs you know there is a huge difference in between official docs and community wiki like arch/nixos has which is why it's so easy for new users to use it O.o <drakonis>there's the cookbook for a crash course on guile <podiki[m]>cookbook on setting up common services or something might fit (in addition to details in main docs) <drakonis>there's bibliography in the form of scheme books *M6piz7wk[m] doesn't even know how to edit the cookbook <M6piz7wk[m]>and submitting patches for this workflow is kinda meh <roptat>you'd edit doc/cookbook.texi. Alternatively, you can submit an entry for the cookbook to the ML, and someone will convert it to the cookbook format <M6piz7wk[m]>and like worst case scenario i waste time contributing to it and the entries will be removed.. best case guix get a lot of new users <jgart>It would be awesome to support markdown in guix with guile-commonmark the way haunt does <roptat>well, nixos.wiki is "unofficial" and "user-maintained", so nothing stops you to start guix.wiki <jgart>The would increase contributors to the cookbook for sure <M6piz7wk[m]>the maintenance and people flooding it with vandalism does as i am just one person x.x <jgart>I imagine a lot of new contributors shy away from the texi arcana. <jgart>if haunt supports markdown why can't guix? <M6piz7wk[m]>it's also more like for the time management.. like i hate man/info pages and rather use tldr pages that just tell me `use this command to do what you need to do` <apteryx>jgart: because our docs is not built a as web site? <M6piz7wk[m]>as manuals usually require you to use brain which is exhausting~ <jgart>it'd be cool to also support markdown as an alternative in the package record description fields <jgart>elixir supports markdown in it's docstrings which is kind of nice <apteryx>not sure what the markdown frenzy is about; Texinfo is pretty neat after you've sit down and read parts of its reference manual. Have you used the info reader? That's where it shines. <vagrantc>apteryx: you just referenced two things i have the hardest time using :P <jgart>but it's only a nice experience inside of emacs <jgart>and I mostly don't use emacs <M6piz7wk[m]>fwiw the motivation for the wiki is me telling people to use guix and them leaving it because they either missunderstand how it works, think it's unstable or see that as too much pain to learn so the wiki is perfect solution for it.. <M6piz7wk[m]>so manual and wiki are both great but each have different usecase <apteryx>jgart: 'info texinfo' works just as well from the command line. It even works to view manpages. <jgart>apteryx, yeah but the interface is a bit funny <jgart>but maybe I haven't learned info well enough... <apteryx>it's just different; you have to learn perhaps 3 keys to be happy: i for index, g for goto node, and m to select a menu <jgart>ok, I'll try that for next time <apteryx>try 'info bash', then 'i whathever RET' next time you need to find something <apteryx>and hit ',' to get to the next index if the first one is not what you're after <jgart>I feel guile needs a doc update or something like janetdocs <breathe>Hello, I'm looking to create package definitions for a couple of emacs packages. The manual suggests using `guix import` to get an existing package definition to base the new definition on. <jgart>I wish there was more material on guile like there is for racket <jgart>breathe, I'd look inside emacs-xyz.scm <breathe>When I try running `guix import gnu hello`, I'm running into gpg issues <vivien>That’s gnu/packages/emacs-xyz.scm <jgart>I read through those and copy one that fits well to your target package <breathe>jgart: Is there an emacs-xyz.scm file stored locally on my Guix SD machine? <jgart>the above command will jump you to it <vivien>There has been a message collision, I meant to clarify that emacs-xyz.scm is in the gnu/packages/ directory. <M6piz7wk[m]>can i get the edit perms on libreplanet then u.u user: kreyren <breathe>Where is that directory? Under /gnu/ I only see /gnu/store/ <jgart>breathe, do you know how to prepare a guix tree for packaging? <vivien>breathe, you need to clone the guix git repository and edit it. <jgart>you'll need to know that to properly contribute and test a package <jgart>in a nutshell it says what to do <jgart>to get started with preparing a tree <roptat>one thing missing in the manual in language links <jgart>the script above distills what's in the link that roptat shared <jgart>if it doesn't please let me know because that is a bug and I'd like to fix it <roptat>from that page, I'd love to be able to click on "fr" to get the French version, it's not as simple as changing "en" in the URL... <jgart>what do people use texinfo for other than guix? <roptat>outside of GNU, probably not a lot of people though <jgart>it will probably be of way more interest for guix community than learnxinyminutes.com <jgart>It's just a bit tedious sometimes to read through the texinfo docs <jgart>with everything consolidated <roptat>well, we could have it in both places too <jgart>like the guix cheatsheet card that is available <jgart>I think that would help alot with onboarding people to texinfo for guix development <jgart>I feel pretty comfortable already with texinfo from what I've done with guix. I've only written texinfo in the context of guix development. <roptat>(well, and guile-netlink I guess) <jgart>I think I saw that you used it in gitile also? <jgart>roptat, how'd you go about learning guile-fibers? <jgart>what was the first thing you tried using it for? <jgart>maybe that's a better question <roptat>I tried to use it for guile-torrent <roptat>which failed because I ended up creating deadlocks everywhere <jgart>guile-connmark (for markdown highlighting) <jgart>would you like me to send a patch for that :slight_smile: <roptat>haha, I can take care of it, but thanks <roptat>to be sure, the type is that it's guile-commonmark, right? <jgart>should/can guix support fossil scm <jgart>for downloading fossil repositories, I mean <roptat>yeah, if that's needed for a package <jgart>It's a node package but I think it has no deps <jgart>It's the successor of abcm2ps <jgart>but compiles scores way faster <jgart>it's a simpler program with less features to be fair <vivien>Dear guix, while trying to build the unison manual on core-updates-frozen, I get the following tex error message: <vivien>dvips: ! Couldn't find header file: l3backend-dvips.pro <jgart>it's like latex versus groff <vivien>Can any tex-savy person help me? <jgart>unison, the ocaml synchronizer program? <jgart>was just curious but I have no idea about texinfo currently <jgart>maybe someone else can chime in <roptat>l3backend sounds vaguely familiar <vivien>There’s a "texlive-latex-l3backend" package, but it doesn’t help <roptat>I think it needs ot be in the union <roptat>since texlive-tiny is (texlive-union), you probably need (texlive-union (list texlive-latex-l3backend)) instead <vivien>On c-u-f, texlive-union is a deprecated alias for texlive-updmap.cfg <jgart>why don't we build a janetdocs, not using github oauth, and for guile <jgart>we can then share macros, guix package snippets, bla bla <jgart>in a more fluid, less formal manner <jgart>you just log in and add them <jgart>drakonis, as janetdocs.org creator why they did it if it's not obvious <roptat>hopefully you can still change the title? <jgart>they also have crowd-sourced docs *roptat needs to go, I'll try to remember to fix gitile's readme and write something about texinfo for the cookbook <jgart>I think it would be fun and open the ground for more social sharing of scheme ideas <jgart>roptat, that would be great! till soon <jgart>guile manual is just too austere compared to janetdocs.com idea in my humble opinion <jgart>I think guile can have shiny things too ;) <jgart>I mean janetdocs.com serves a different purpose than the manual so ignore comparison above <jgart>oh yeah, I'm not crazy about a wiki <jgart>I rarely use wikis except for wikipedia... <drakonis>i'd rather avoid fragmenting the concentration of knowledge <jgart>but I mostly just read wikipedia <jgart>sure that might be a concern <jgart>but maybe we can link back to official docs if it makes sense <drakonis>nixos.wiki is barely usable at this point <jgart>I appreciate blogs for example <jgart>do you happen to know a good resource that straightfowardly shows how to build a nix package? <jgart>The best one I've seen was a conversation on a github pull request thread... <jgart>But I'd like to find another source <jgart>This is a common assumption in nix guides <jgart>error: file 'nixpkgs' was not found in the Nix search path (add it using $NIX_PATH or -I), at (string):1:13 <podiki[m]>nixos wiki even has a "history of nixos wikis" :) <drakonis>maybe having excellent official docs would be nice <drakonis>instead of trying to delegate that to a third party <jgart>a guile book at the scale of htdp would be nice <jgart>but we don't have that university money <drakonis>basically, i tried using nixos.wiki as a reference for how to use nginx and it was a pretty bad time <jgart>I'd like guiledocs.com to be a supplement to the guile manual <jgart>for when people get frustrated with the formalness of the manual and they want something a bit more casual for learning <jgart>and sharing acquired guile/guix/scheme knowledge <drakonis>M6piz7wk[m]: what's the goal here that cannot be achieved with the existing docs? <jgart>drakonis, I'd say we have both <jgart>it has nice exercises that can be translated to guile or even used directly <jgart>sicp is a difficult read compared to htdp <jgart>atleast the later chapters in sicp <M6piz7wk[m]>easy to understand and quick documentation that refers to the manual for more complicated issues <ytc>is there any texinfo format for htdp? i love reading books from emacs. <drakonis>if you've set up your system before, you'll have a minimal notion of how to include a new service <drakonis>also i had no idea it was possible to look up services from the cli <jgart>does the htdp license allow that? <ytc>what should i read or do after i finish reading sicp? do you have any recommendations? <jgart>if so, it would be awesome to create it and write a guix package for it <drakonis>also tspl4 is good for learning baseline scheme <jgart>ytc, did you implement the metacircular evaluator? <jgart>and the interpreter/compiler? <ytc>jgart: i'm in chapter 3 right now. <ytc>it is in the chapter 4 i guess. <jgart>and sicp doesn't hold your hand through it <jgart>so it might be an endless rabbit hole unless you know what you're doing in that domain <jgart>might need to consult other sources to assist with completing later chapters of sicp <jgart>or have the baseline knowledge to complete them <drakonis>M6piz7wk[m]: surely reading the docs and setting up your system would at least teach a minimal amount of knowledge to do basic things? <jgart>earlier chapters of sicp are more approachable by a beginner <drakonis>i've only found the source for the languages <ytc>jgart: i love solving puzzles. and i had cs experience actually. i was a competitive programmer in highschool. in the first chapters i have felt like i make no progress. but i really admired the elegancy of lisp and perspective of procedures. <roptat>jgart, fixed that typo, thanks again :) <jab>I guess I'm coming late to this convo...what does htdp stand for? <jab>I search google wrong... <ytc>sometimes, guix.gnu.org/packages shows older versions for some programs than the ones in cuirass. why is that? <vivien>drakonis, I guess guix is waiting for linux-libre <Cairn>Thinking about getting a PinePhone as a tiny Emacs interface. Anything I should consider if I wanna try to use Guix system for that? <Cairn>I'm not super aware of the support work that has gone into anything Arm-related <vivien>Are you sure you can run a pinephone with 100% free software? <Cairn>I'd hope that the only concern I might run into would be proprietary wireless drivers <jab>Cairn: the modem is also closed source. <jab>there is some work to open it up, but there will probably always be bits of it that are not open. <jab>so I just deleted 57667 MiB from the /gnu/store. <jab>It took guix about 5+ minutes to delete all of it. <jab>actually the process is not done yet... <Cairn>Should I expect that those blobs are enough to stop me from using Guix on this device? <jab>Cairn: You will not be able to make calls on the device. Your modem aka SMS will not work. and your wifi will not work. <jab>Cairn: I bought one and am using one as my daily phone, because it's must more open than any android phone. <jab>wow, my hard drive just went from 40% full to 27%. <Cairn>jab: Right, that makes sense. I wouldn't be using it like a phone at all, so my only concern would be wifi. But if I load the drivers myself, I could get by with the rest of the Guix system, right? <vivien>This isn’t a good place to discuss this. <Cairn>You're right, I'm sorry. Is there a better place you'd recommend? <vivien>I recommend you reconsider your choice for now and find a computer that runs with 100% free software ^^ <pinoaffe>vivien: is it all right to describe how guix can be used to run proprietary software / how guix can be used in combination with proprietary software? <jlicht>singpolyma: in case the cheeky name wasn't a hint, that't definitely not on-topic for #guix ;) <Cairn>singpolyma: I'll pop this question over there, thanks. <jab>vivien: may I disagree? Cairn is discussing the current "best" option for running only free software. <jab>I think his motives happen to be super close to pursuing only running free software. <vivien>That’s not an option to run only free software, and there are options to run only free software, so I must disagree. <Cairn>Yeah, I really am trying to stick to only free software. But I find laptops a little clunky, so I was looking for something that didn't come built-in with a keyboard. <Cairn>I'd love a recommendation for a device like that if possible. I'm pretty sure the Librem has worked pretty hard to get an RYF certification, but I'd have to look that up quickly to see if they got it or not. <Cairn>Problem with the Librem is that the price is impossible for me. <Cairn>Whereas the PinePhone is much cheaper. I would even consider trying to go without wireless connectivity if it meant I could stick to free software only. <Cairn>Or, of course, an alternative device like that would be awesome too. <jab>vivien: I respect your opinion. And I agree that we should encourage users to only use computers that can run only free software. but it may actually be possible to use the pinephone will only free software. They have a dongle that lets you use an ethernet cord. I think it should be possible to use a pinephone with no wifi and no modem. I have not tested this exactly... <pinoaffe>jab: guix just has a policy against recommending proprietary software in official guix channels, I don't know whether that extends to describing how guix can easily be used to install a kernel with proprietary blobs enabled <jab>pinoaffe: ok. I guess that's what I agree with. We should be able to discuss the pinephone and using it with guix system, but perhaps not talk about how to load the proprietary binary only files. I can get behind that. <Cairn>pinoaffe: I appreciate you pointing out the policy. It wasn't my aim. <jab>It is super annoying that very few RFY devices exist. We have power9 from raptor and some old thinkpads. :( <jab>hardware vendors sure like to keep things secret. <Cairn>jab: I didn't know about the ethernet dongle. If used the hardware switches to disable the proprietary parts of the system, that'd make it run with a completely free build of Guix ARM, right? <Cairn>And I'd just rely on the dongle? <singpolyma>jab: FSF barely has capacity to best the devices that get submitted is also an issue <pinoaffe>jab: a lot of devices can luckily be run without any proprietary firmware in userland, that's a good first step in my opinion <jab>Cairn: I believe so. <jab>pinoaffe: lots of devices....what devices am I not thinking of? <Cairn>Ethernet or a wifi dongle with the PinePhone seem like my best bet then. Is there anything else out there, like a tablet or something? <pinoaffe>jab: pretty much all laptops are compatible with a wifi-card that doesn't require proprietary firmware <singpolyma>PineTab isn't shipping right now and you'll need a dongle again <Cairn>singpolyma: PineTab's all out, yeah. But I'm really excited about the PineNote. <jab>Cairn: Olimex boards might be a better option for you if you want completely open software. <Cairn>I'm by no means a developer, so I was gonna wait until it was considered available for a more general beta-testing audience. <pinoaffe>jab: my lenovo t470 for example doesn't run any proprietary t470 in userland, just pure guix goodness <Cairn>But yeah, super excited about the PineNote anyway. <singpolyma>Cairn: yeah, me too, second version always has fixes <jab>I was blown away that olimex makes open hardware arm boards. <jab>pinoaffe: have you run ME Cleaner? <mekeor[m]>hi guix! how do you "cargo build" on guix system? <jab>mekeor[m]: you could just download the rust package in question... <pinoaffe>jab: there's a lot of proprietary firmware in my laptop, even stuff that runs on the main CPU, just nothing in userland <pinoaffe>and that's a great first step in my opinion <mekeor[m]>jab: i wrote some rust code locally. i want to build it locally. i installed cargo but "cargo build" results in rustc not being found. <Cairn>jab: I'm a little confused about this OLinuXino thing. Has someone designed one of the boards to come with a display? I might just not be reading the link you sent close enough <pinoaffe>and if I'm not mistaken, the only significant thing required to get libreboot on my laptop, would be to get around intel's pesky firmware signing <ytc>is buying powerpc computers for high-performance-computing and libre bios sensible choice? <lispmacs[work]>Cairn: jab: before buying anything from Olimex, check into the kernel software required. I was a bit disappointed with the Teres-I, to find out you have to use a custom kernel that has some binary blobs in it <Cairn>lispmacs[work]: Thanks for the heads up. <Cairn>Doesn't seem like they produce anything portable in some sense though. So it's not very useful for what I'm hoping to do :( <lispmacs[work]>Cairn: it took some digging to into the provided kernel source to figure that out <Cairn>vivien: Do you use anything portable? <mekeor[m]>do i have to write a package declaration if i want to build my local rust project? <vivien>Cairn, nothing that’s a computer :) <mekeor[m]>it seems guix-import does not have an option to import a local project. rather, it can only import from crates in the internet <Cairn>vivien: Fair enough. Just wishing I wasn't locked to my desk. I'd love to do some computing from my local cafe for example. *mekeor[m] tries to install the rust package <jgart>roptat, looks really great! Do you ever use texi2html? That seems like a really great tool for beginners and doesn't involve the complexity of automake <jgart>I realize that texinfo also has some binaries for converting to pdf <jgart>roptat, the texinfo guide reads really nicely <jgart>would be nice to add it to the cookbook <jgart>roptat, some typos I found unless you're planning to run it through a spell checker <jgart>formating should be formatting <jgart>"Each block of text in a paragraph." is an incomplete sentence <jgart>unless you meant "Each block of text is a paragraph." <jgart>There might be another typo but I can't find it at this very moment. <jgart>Thanks for writing that up, though. Much appreciated!