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<GNUtoo>oh ok
<ss2>just installed lxqt-opennssh-askpass, and that did not help.
<GNUtoo>In Parabola there is a x11-ssh-askpass package, so it's probably what makes it work there
<LibreAlex>robin: this group( chat) is great, I really like that there are people who help each other!
<ss2>jackhill: so how exactly did you get it working?
<LibreAlex>Thanks for your help, guys.
<GNUtoo>pkgdesc='Lightweight passphrase dialog for SSH'
<GNUtoo> url=''
<ss2>or I might have to have it in my system profile? Testing this now.
<GNUtoo>So it seems that it's a software separate from OpenSSH
*GNUtoo doesn't have his browser working yet though but in Parabola the package definition for x11-ssh-askpass comes from Arch Linux community repository (which is then filtered and so on)
<GNUtoo>for libgcc maybe it's not in gcc-toolchain
<ss2>alright, this makes more sense now. I think I understand why it works for you jackhill.
<Olivetree>Is there any way to run `guix gc` which doesn't result in this much downloading for a `guix remove` right after it? <>
<NicholasvonKlitz>Asking once more because I'm still stuck on the same issue :) Anyone know how to get rust-src on Guix? I'm trying to use rust-analyzer but it depends on rust-src (source code of the rustc compiler). I can't seem to find any information about how to obtain rust-src. Usually its done with rustup. Or are there any other resources for developing with Rust on Guix?
*GNUtoo doesn't really understand the question, rust-analyzer seems to already be in guix, and guix build --source can get the source code of a package but that's probably not what you meant
<GNUtoo>If it's for packaging some source code in Android there is a definition for some source code that is then reused in several packages
<tpefreedom>What cli gopher or gemini clients are available in guix?
<drakonis>that is a good question
<drakonis>there's one for emacs
<drakonis>kristall is what you want
<qyliss>(is the emacs one)
<drakonis>yeah, elpher
<drakonis>kristall and elpher
<GNUtoo>Do some client support socksv5 nowadays? last time I checked they didn't
***jonsger1 is now known as jonsger
<GNUtoo>Ahhh I start to understand
<GNUtoo>***(hidden-package*** (package (name "gcc") [...] (outputs '("out" ***"lib"***
<GNUtoo>So it's there but apparently I can't install it
<apteryx>vivien: I just tried a build of webkitgtk with lld instead of ld, and unless my wrapper is not being used, it doesn't seem to change much in terms of memory usage
<GNUtoo>guix package -i gcc and guix package -i gcc:lib both fail
<apteryx>I'll try gold and explicitly passing -fuse-ld
<GNUtoo>The first installs gcc-toolchain and the second says that gcc-toolchain lacks a lib output
<apteryx>GNUtoo: the gcc package is hidden; you probably want 'gcc-toolchain' if you want to use gcc as a user
<apteryx>in package definitions it's fine to use 'gcc' though, for example when a specific version is required
*GNUtoo wants gcc libraries to run a free software browser that is not in Guix
<apteryx>doesn't it come with gcc itself?
<GNUtoo>For gold vs ld note that GCC also do the linking with lto
<GNUtoo>it does but I can't install it
<GNUtoo>For instance if I ldd firefox.real from the tor-browser I have:
<GNUtoo> => /gnu/store/z4li262il798hbl0l1h1k3a5g7r6bffa-glibc-2.31/lib/
<GNUtoo> => not found
<GNUtoo>So here I suspect that installing gcc:lib would fix it somehow
<apteryx>you could perhaps point LD_LIBRARY_PATH to its store location just to try?
<apteryx>there's also patchelf for hacking binaries rpaths; IIUC you're trying to run a 'foreign' binary on your Guix System?
<GNUtoo>yes, exactly, but I don't want to modify it as I also run Parabola
<GNUtoo>Here I'm trying to share my home between both systems, so patching the elf files will probably be very messy
<apteryx>yeah, a wrapper script would be easier
<apteryx>guix-tor-browser or somehing, that messes with LD_LIBRARY_PATH
<apteryx>i'm trying to find the library in my store, seems a hard find
<GNUtoo>mine is in /gnu/store/92p8kxb6a5xpdi6srb8cj71fggqpkmjk-gcc-10.3.0-lib/lib/ but there is also one in /gnu/store/19ggjk3x11qa63z37ki396qrf1h7pcaf-gcc-11.2.0-lib/lib/
<apteryx>OK, so it's in the lib output of gcc as you said
<GNUtoo>the 10 fails the 11 somehow works with ldd
<apteryx>I think you could install a store location in a pinch
<GNUtoo>And I've no idea how to find that programatically
<apteryx>guix install /gnu/store/19ggjk3x11qa63z37ki396qrf1h7pcaf-gcc-11.2.0-lib
<apteryx>not sure if that works, I seem to recally it does
<GNUtoo>oh it does, thanks a lot!!!!
<GNUtoo>./Source/cmake/WebKitCompilerFlags.cmake:if (LTO_MODE AND COMPILER_IS_CLANG)
<GNUtoo>In your webkit issue there are stuff about LTO
<GNUtoo>And with LTO gcc does the linking and that uses a huge amount of RAM
<GNUtoo>The whole point is to have all the object in memory and do obtimizations on that if I recall well
<GNUtoo>instead of obtimizing per-object as it's usually done
<apteryx>I see! It's not clear that's it's the linker consuming all that memory; top says it's the c++ compiler (gcc)
<apteryx>but I was thinking perhaps the linker is hidden because it gets called by the compiler (I don't seem to see ld during the webkitgtk build in top)
<GNUtoo>for guix install /gnu/store/... per se it didn't automatically make ldd work, though now that's much easier to work with as it can be installed and refered to programatically
<apteryx>OK; so you'll still need some LD_LIBRARY_PATH glue
<GNUtoo>or some ld.conf glue
*GNUtoo has /home/gnutoo/.guix-profile/lib/ though so ldconfig will probably be doable
<vagrantc>hrm. i seem to not get substitutes from bordeaux anymore, even though i know i used to with this same configuration
<vagrantc>i see linux-libre for aarch64 available on bordeaux via guix weather, but it refuses to download it
<vagrantc>bordeaux should be in the default acls these days, no?
<vagrantc>i definitely pulled linux-libre@5.14.13 from bordeaux
<vagrantc>just yesterday, i think
<apteryx>python 3.10, why not
<apteryx>vagrantc: if you're on Guix System
<apteryx>otherwise you have to add it yourself
<apteryx>or yes | ./
<vagrantc>apteryx: yeah, on guix system ... same system config literally from yesterday
<vagrantc>apteryx: where it worked fine ...
<vagrantc>hmmm... although that was before i upgraded the system that it downloaded linux-libre ... same system config.scm i've used since june, though, but haven't upgraded in almost two months
<vagrantc>but the upgrade yesterday went smoothly...
<apteryx>perhaps check your /etc/guix/acl file?
<vagrantc>there is no /etc/guix/acl file
<vagrantc>why there isn't, got me...
*vagrantc considers rebooting into an older generation
<vagrantc>yup, older generation works
<apteryx>lol after python 3.10 update: checking for a version of Python >= '3.8'... no (nghttp2)
<vagrantc>assuming a single-digit version, maybe?
<apteryx>the last release fares better
<apteryx>vagrantc: yeah, I guess so :-)
<apteryx>does the older generation have the /etc/guix/acl file?
<vagrantc>apteryx: older generation does not have /etc/guix/acl
<vagrantc>but most recent reconfigure added it as a symlink
*vagrantc boggles
<vagrantc>as in, the generation i just created after booting into an old generation
<vagrantc>hah, it's got the bordeaux key in there twice ... probably because my config is from before when it was in the default acl
<vagrantc>ok, /etc/guix/acl is there now, and seems to contain a key for bordeaux, but ... not downloading from bordeaux
<apteryx>is there a way to get the daemon more verbose about why it's rejecting stuff?
<apteryx>or perhaps it simply doesn't have what you're after? does it substitutes other things?
<vagrantc>hrm. now i'm able to substitute some things only available on bordeaux
<vagrantc>yeah, getting the daemon to be more verbose would be useful ... i'm a bit perplexed as to what's not working
<vagrantc>guix weather shows the substitutes i'm trying to download as only available on bordeaux
<vagrantc>*sometimes* it actually downloads from bordeaux, sometimes not ... i'm not as sure what exactly triggers it now
<vagrantc>i was using nginx as a caching proxy ... maybe nginx is acting wonky
<vagrantc>adding bordeaux directly to --substitute-urls it seems to be downloading directly from bordeaux, rather than the caching proxy
<vagrantc>hrm. hrm.
<vagrantc>managed to get u-boot to build locally without openssl, so that's one fiasco delayed....
<apteryx>well done!
<apteryx>wonder if gnutls could be used
<vagrantc>and then, apparently, it may even be almost a non-issue, if it's not actually embedding any openssl code in most of the cases (only using openssl transitiveily during the build, which doesn't actually trigger the licensing discrepancies)
<vagrantc>anyways, off to other things...
*vagrantc waves
<robin>NicholasvonKlitz, why can't rust-analyzer just use, well, a copy of the rust source code, as other people have suggested? does rust-analyzer need access to the source at build time or something to work properly?
<robin>(caveat: i've only used rust very minimally in the context of firefox hacking, and don't know what rust-analyzer does, for example, though i'm familiar with rustup)
<robin>NicholasvonKlitz, if it *does* need the rust source at build time that's (probably) easy to fix in the package definition
<robin>if it just needs a copy of the source at runtime, that's easy to get via "guix build --source rust", as GNUtoo suggested
<robin>(though you may have to copy/unpack it out of /gnu/store since it's read-only there)
<NicholasvonKlitz>thanks robin and GNUtoo I was unaware of `guix build --source`. I will give it a try, but from my understanding that should be exactly what I'm looking for. rust-analyzer just needs a path to rustc source code at run time for code suggestions and auto completion.
<robin>is rust-analyzer *useful* without the rustc source? if not, that's a bug; or we might want two packages, one with the rustc code and one without, if rust-analyzer still has useful functionality without the source
<the_tubular>There's something eating a LOT of my ram, and I can't find it, with ps -aux and on top, what should I do ?
<jackhill>ss2: great, sorry I was away and missed out on some of your adventure. Yeah, I think my use just happened to be on a happy path. I've added exploring other configurations to my list of things to try!
<apteryx>the_tubular: are you sure it's not just the kernel Linux's caching?
<the_tubular>No, I'm not sure
<the_tubular>Anyway I can tell ?
<NicholasvonKlitz><robin> "is rust-analyzer *useful..." <- It's not useful without the source, at least to my knowledge
<apteryx>with the 'free' command, the truly available ram is listed under 'available'
<the_tubular>Yeah, there's 60 gb not available
<the_tubular>With barely anything running on my host
<apteryx>is this Guix System?
<apteryx>perhaps some service? it's hard to say if you can't see anything
<apteryx>does it slowy come back after a reboot?
<the_tubular>I haven't rebooted in a while, it was my next thing to do
<the_tubular>Still weird that I can't see anything eating close to 60gb of ram
<robin>NicholasvonKlitz, you can file a bug by sending mail to fwiw. sounds like we should definitely be including the rust source in that case
<NicholasvonKlitz>robin: Yes will do. I still need test the using the suggestion.
***tom is now known as tom119
<tom119>Hi. I'm considering migrating from NixOS to Guix. I'm trialling Guix System via the VM image. Stupid question... but where is the config.scm within the VM image? I figured /etc/config.scm but it's not there.
<tom119>I could just write a config.scm and reconfigure, but since I'm new to Guix System I'd rather start with a config.scm that I know already works for the VM I'm in.
<tom119>(e.g. disk partitions)
<tom119>updatedb/locate doesn't find it, so I suspect this file doesn't exist anywhere.
<lilyp>tom119: the installation disk has some examples in /etc/configuration and you can also see them in the guix source code
<tom119>lilyp: Thanks. looks good. I've modified the disk labels, and it'll probably be fine.
<lilyp>yep, in fact you ought to use your own :P
<tissevert>hi guix
<tissevert>I'm trying to reuse an old system configuration I had made for a laptop to build a system for a VM and I'm really curious what guix will make of these particular (device …) entries in the (file-systems …) which won't exist inside qemu
<tissevert>also I was wondering: more generally, is there a way to separate hardware concerns from the part of the configuration we really choose and isn't auto-generated ?
<tissevert>not a big fan of nix, but I've seen "imports = [ ./hardware-configuration.nix ]" in nix configuration and that's that: leave nix handle those details, and have the rest of the config be entirely portable from one machine to another
<tissevert>don't we have anything similar in guix ?
<jpoiret>well, you have the whole power of guile at your fingertips, so you can really separate hardware def from the configuration in any way you want
<jpoiret>eg conditional loads (your module won't be declarative though but it should be ok)
<tissevert>I'm pretty sure I could, I was just wondering if there was a good reason why people way more skilled than I am in guile hadn't made this choice
<jpoiret>laziness I guess
<tissevert>which is one of the first thing that cross my mind trying to put guix on another machine of mines
<tissevert>ok, a good reason too : )
<jpoiret>there might be some people doing that but they haven't told anyone
<tissevert>I have already put my package list in a separate file because it's longish and I don't want that in the middle of my user definition and all
<tissevert>but to really install somewhere, that means I'd still have to generate a configuration from scratch to get the hardware parts, then add a (load "packages.scm"), then fix minor stuff about the use, keyboard, etc.
<jpoiret>erm, packages in the operating-system definition should really be system packages, ie things necessary to have a running system and packages which should *really* be available globally
<tissevert>why ?
<jpoiret>well you have to reconfigure to install them, rather than just using `guix package`
<tissevert>which is a good way to get your system updated sometimes (otherwise I fear I'm too lazy and it would get real old)
<jpoiret>you can declare profile packages declaratively with manifests
<tissevert>(I keep in my user's packages only the ugly quick-and-dirty ones that can't be included in a channel, and which I probably want to update very regularly as I improve them)
<jpoiret>is $TZ set for any of you?
<tissevert>I'll tell you as soon as I manage to log into my VM ^^
<lilyp>"I like Guix, but can I have me some traditional distro?"
<tissevert>lilyp: who are you quoting ?
<tissevert>jpoiret: unset in the root account of my freshly generated VM
<lilyp>Just lightly poking fun at your configuration :P
<wisp>tissevert: Maybe check out for inspiration
<tissevert>I'm sorry I didn't get the true ways of guix
<tissevert>I hadn't even realized it : (
<wisp>(the author of which seems to be in the channel as well, lol)
<jpoiret>doesn't having guile defeat the whole org noweb thing?
<lilyp>how so?
<jpoiret>i'm still using org noweb for all my dotfiles but plan on moving away from it, but here for the operating-system reference it seems useless
<jpoiret>well you could just put the constants inside a guile file instead of org
<jpoiret>but yeah if you're using org anyways, it should be okay
<jpoiret>(i just hate how noweb works in org)
<lilyp>Ahh, well you can still write plain org+guile without noweb then, no?
<lilyp>The point of literate programming is to have code + documentation in a single file, which is not done too well with doc-snarf sadly
<lilyp>but you might perhaps raise a point over at #guile to use haunt for literate programming somehow :P
<lilyp>anyway, need to reboot
<lilyp>given that there's remount,rw why does remount,ro fail afterwards?
<jpoiret>alright, just sent the swap patch at
<Olivetree>Anyone know anything about this? Should I open a bug report? I'm getting an exception when trying to install nss-certs: Throw to key `encoding-error' with args `("scm_to_stringn" "cannot convert wide string to output locale" 84 #f #f)'
<lilyp>that's probably you missing glibc-[utf8-]locales
<Olivetree>Also thought about it, but I have them, and the warning doesn't even show up anymore
<florhizome[m]><jpoiret> "(i just hate how noweb works..." <- What do you prefer for noweb options? so far I only saw org for it...
<jpoiret>just web in general then aha, i've tried bending it in unspoken ways to do things that'd be pretty easy with an actual language like guile
<fa>Hello all. Can you please tell me how to run a program with internet access in guix, like the 'Firetools' program. I use guix as a package manager
<florhizome[m]><jpoiret> "just web in general then aha, i..." <- Couldn’t you do that in elisp?
<fa>I have not found a programme (guix search....?) that is the same as Firetools ?
<fa>also there is no very IMPORTANT programme on your website such as ZULUCRYPT !!For example, the Trisquel repository has it, but it is an older version
<fa> ???
<nckx>Morning, Guix.
<nckx>fa: Indeed there are no Guix packages for Firetools (a front-end to Firejail, which isn't in Guix yet) or ZuluCrypt (a front-end to various disc/fs encryption tools, some of which are in Guix).
<nckx>We always welcome new packages!
<fa>Hello nckx
<nckx>Hi fa. You can generally get help if you get stuck packaging something (I can't promise that firejail will be easy, ZuluCrypt is probably a better one to start with) here or on the help-guix at mailing list.
<fa>Thanks for your reply. Can you please tell me how to build this package by yourself?
<nckx>That said, got to run ☺
<nckx>Er, well, not in one line, sorry.
<nckx>Good luck though.
*nckx → away
<fa>OK, what are the programmes in guix that can replace Firetools ? What are the container programmes that have access to the internet? Or what commands?
<lilyp>if you're using guix containers, simply add -N
<attila_lendvai>any chance for this to get applied: (making .gz files writable in the output, so that reset-gzip-timestamps can do its work)
<attila_lendvai>i'm staring at several packages created by golang's importer that have this issue
<fa>nckx : Please tell me if there is anyone from the papa team apart from you who can help answer my question. I see that you can't help or don't want to!
<wigust>hi guix
<jpoiret>re my timezone bug: this is actually issue 50830, my bad
<voroskoi[m]>is RSAL acceptable by guix or I should not even try to upstream a package?
<mbakke>voroskoi: it puts restrictions on use, so I doubt it
<mbakke>"[you may] use the Software, or your Modifications, only as part of Your Application, but not in connection with any Database Product that is distributed or otherwise made available by any third party"
<excalamus>good morning, Guix
<potatoalienof13>good morning
<nckx>voroskoi[m]: Unfortunately, no, as it's not free software. ‘[Redis] wants to make it perfectly clear: "We're not calling it open source. It's not."’
<voroskoi[m]>mbakke, nckx: ok, thanks
<jpoiret>any guix home users? any idea why it tries to setup some env variables in its setup environment script after the profile's /etc/profile should've done it itself?
<jpoiret>talking about 'environment-variables->setup-environment-script' in gnu/home/services.scm
<nckx>I think wigust uses guix home :)
*wigust does
<wigust>jpoiret: i could guess because /etc/profile is different on each distro
<nckx>jpoiret: Why [core-updates-frozen] for the swap patches?
<nckx>It does not seem quite that vital.
<jpoiret>well, while I do agree that it looks like a big change that late into c-u-f, i consider it an important bug: my system would never swapon itself and I always forgot to do it manually
<nckx>jpoiret: Actually, looking: why [core-updates] at all.
<nckx>This could go to master?
<jpoiret>but yeah, i was unsure about that
<jpoiret>oh, of course
<jpoiret>sorry about the date for the second mail, i'm running c-u-f and my timezone is wrong, forgot to fix it for the second email
<jpoiret>my other patch about enabling wayland support in GDM was actually pushed to core-updates-frozen so i thought that these kinds of "rewrite that deprecate something" were c-u-f material
<nckx>jpoiret: I would never look at the date at all so your secret's safe with me.
<jpoiret>in my icedove they're ordered incorrectly so that might mess things up for some people
<nckx>jpoiret: No, its purely about the number of packages that need to be rebuilt. The ‘physical’ work that, e.g., people who don't use CI.guix will have to perform on their X200s.
<jpoiret>wigust: but it sources the profile's /etc/profile, not the distro's global one, and it is already in charge of setting up the needed env variables. it seems like an undocumented edge-case or just simply profile's /etc/profile not doing its job
<nckx>Big conceptual changes deserve more review but staging/c-u are not review branches. Commits, once there, don't receive extra scrutiny before they end up in master.
<jpoiret>nckx: oh yes. i roughly wrote the bulk of this patch ~this wednesday but it took me 3 days to update c-u-f beforehand since the big rebuild
<jpoiret>although i need some c-u-f stuff so all is well, didn't build all of that for naught
<nckx>Yeah… Severe CI underutilisation doesn't help. I think you were here when I mentioned how idle sit the build nodes.
<jpoiret>i'd love to help but i don't know the intricacies of the CI system yet (not even the internals of guix that well) so i'll just keep on with simple rewrites for now
<jpoiret>GNUtoo good luck packaging go programs The Proper Way™
<jpoiret>i tried doing that myself for something else and was driven into despair
<nckx>jpoiret: <i'd love to help> Same, but I've been spreading myself criminally thin as is, and ‘not diving into the Cuirass codebase’ is part of my court-ordered therapy…
<jpoiret>nckx: should i send a follow-up email? i forgot to add my own configuration's example in the cover letter as well so it's not just useless noise (how do you do code snippets again so that they show up nicely on
<nckx>You did a fine job in documenting it so I don't think anyone will need an example. You're free to send a follow-up mail but unless you've changed the patch itself or the commit message (which don't include examples in Guix), don't include it.
<nckx>Needing an example would be a red flag, but again, your docs look great.
<nckx>I'm just waiting for ‘guix pull’ to finish to reboot with my box with NuSwap…
<wigust>jpoiret: Ah, wrong reading sorry. Could you send a mail to describing the issue with sourcing shell scripts, please? So we could keep an eye on this.
<jpoiret>wigust: i'll finish reading the source to see if understand most of it, and i'll do that if I still don't see why!
<jpoiret>(on my system at least my default profile does set those env vars)
<roptat>arg, getting a 502 (Bad gateway) from savannah :/
<roptat>oh, that's already solved
<Guest62>guix pull: error: Git error: unexpected http status code: 502
<Guest62>any idea why im getting this?
<jpoiret>savannah is having some trouble these days
<jpoiret>someone complained yesterday about that as well
<jpoiret>just retry in a bit
<Guest62>oh ok
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<nckx>I reported it a week or so, they obviously didn't think it would keep happening so long. I'll mention it again.
<nckx>The cause appears unclear: “the cpus are mostly idle and there's plenty of free memory”.
<nckx>roptat: What did you run to get the error?
<roptat>that was when trying to build the website, it wants to update a guix clone
<roptat>then, I got this also when checking on
<nckx>Ah, ok.
<nckx>You mean checking with a browser, right?
<roptat>learned they're running on trisquell :)
<florhizome[m]>Failing to remove gdm -.-
<florhizome[m]>Who thought it was a good idea to make this a default -.-
<nckx>Nice to see you too.
<bandali>nckx, roptat, sometimes there are intermittent/temporary issues similar to this, i believe mostly because temporary high load on that savannah machine
<roptat>florhizome[m], the manual has an example here (replacing gdm with slim, but you can replace with anything else or just remove gdm entirely):
<roptat>is that useful?
<nckx>bandali: Do you have pretty graphs that log the past? (Or ugly ones.)
<florhizome[m]>Thank you but I know that
<bandali>nckx, yeah we do have munin but afaik it's not shared publicly
<florhizome[m]>It’s probably a syntactical thing.
<florhizome[m]>I currently do (modify services %desktop-services..) with a bunch of stuff before the os, and then in services I have an (append ...(list....%desktop-services))) with the other services I add/configure. None of the examples I saw does it that way.
<florhizome[m]>*the examples for exchanging gdm.
<florhizome[m]>I’m trying to use sddm to be able to use wayland... unfortunately greetd+plugins isn’t available yet so there will be more hassle in the future^^
<nckx>I do not use modify-services but that does not sound effective.
<nckx>You can share your full configuration in the pastebin in the topic & maybe someone can spot the bug.
*nckx stepping AFK for dinner prep, but hopefully bandali seems to be hot on the heels of the 502 cause!
<florhizome[m]>yeah maybe I could do it differently.
<florhizome[m]>The next thing I’d try is probably declare a derived desktop-services list, which is what daviwil does
<jpoiret>iirc modify-services doesn't modify the variable but instead returns a modified one
<nckx>Uh, yeah, so, that.
<bandali>this round of savannah git issues should be resolved now :)
<nckx>It's not (modify services stuff) (operating-system (services other stuff)), it's (operating-system (services (modify-services stuff)))
<nckx>bandali: \o/ Thank you! And anyone silently involved behind the scenes.
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<bandali>cheers :) happy to help
<Olivetree>Hey there! I'm trying to run `cargo install starship` but the build fails with "error while loading shared libraries:" (not on GuixSD)
<Olivetree>gcc-tolchain is installed, naturally
<Olivetree>several version even, but ldd (from guix) claims is not found
<jpoiret>installed how?
<Olivetree>guix install gcc-toolchain
<jpoiret>what about LD_LIBRARY_PATH? is it set?
<Olivetree>No. But it's not in .guix-profile/etc/profile either. Only LIBRARY_PATH
<ison>Olivetree: When working on rust I run cargo in an environment. Something like "guix environment --ad-hoc rust rust:cargo gcc-toolchain pkg-config"
<Olivetree>Still need to learn to work on that environment thing. Wouldn't that be for my personal projects? This is for a package installation. I also tried to use guix import, but failed.
<ison>Does the package have pkg-config? I think cargo needs it to locate things
<lilyp>I'd assume the package can't find libgcc_s because of weird assumptions on the package's side about traditional distros
<lilyp>they might even hand you some binary that you need to patchelf on your own
<Olivetree>If that were the case it'd probably work, as I have libgcc_s in /usr/lib/ from my distro
<Olivetree>Got one step further.. needed to `guix install rust rust:cargo`
<Olivetree>I didn't want rust to be managed by guix because of rustup
<Olivetree>So I guess I should really learn about environments, since mixing guix with my distro is likely to break things
<Olivetree>Hmmm.... how do I install something akin to openssl-dev?
<lilyp>we don't have -dev things, you might need :lib sometimes, but that's it
<lilyp>(or :include for the ~20 packages that actually have it)
<Olivetree>then how do I fix this? run pkg_config fail: "`\"pkg-config\" \"--libs\" \"--cflags\" \"openssl\"` did not exit successfully: exit code: 1\n--- stderr\nPackage openssl was not found in the pkg-config search path.\nPerhaps you should add the directory containing `openssl.pc\'\nto the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable\nNo package \'openssl\' found
<Olivetree>I have + openssl 1.1.1j out /gnu/store/jfs1nf7zyqgiy9zmcg2aj95ify9phw3v-openssl-1.1.1l
<Olivetree>Also, if I run cargo install starship after `guix environment --ad-hoc rust rust:cargo gcc-toolchain pkg-config` I don't get the libgcc_s error, but if I install those packages in my profile and run cargo install I still get the libgcc_s missing error
<Olivetree>Alright! I was able to install it in the environment but in a very twisted way: I sourced PKG_CONFIG_PATH that was in .guix-profile/etc/profile
<Olivetree>I guess it all comes back to env vars missing.. thanks for the environment tip!
<lilyp>So first things first, everything that sounds like "install" is (at least to me personally) an instant yikes
<lilyp>Second, your environment didn't have openssl, so you'd have to add that to it.
<Olivetree>Yes, I understood that later.
<lilyp>if those incantations get too long you can always write a manifest or something like that, that's no issue
<Olivetree>what alternative do you propose for "install"»
<lilyp>to be fair, I have no idea how rust does things
<Olivetree>compiles stuff in your machine and copies binaries to ~/.cargo/bin
<lilyp>I personally do either of the following:
<lilyp>1. set the install directory as a subdirectory of the build directory (e.g. build/install, build/.install or build/_install)
<lilyp>2. set the install directory to somewhere in /tmp (e.g. /tmp/libfoo-install
<Olivetree>Rust automagically does option 2.
<lilyp>And by "install directory" I mean ${prefix} in GNU tools parlance
<Olivetree>Or rather, cargo
<lilyp>~/.cargo doesn't sound like it'd get wiped on reboot
<Olivetree>ah, sorry, I was thinking of build directory
<Olivetree>but this isn't a temporary tool.. I don't want it to go away on reboot, but guix doesn't have rust packages
<Olivetree>at least the ones I want to install now
<lilyp>guix import crate -r CRATE ought to give you a pretty good starting point on adding them
<Olivetree>Oh, -r... will try
<lilyp>for --recursive :)
<Olivetree>Meanwhile I found out that it was the order of directories on PATH that was breaking my cargo install outside of environment --ad-hoc
<Olivetree>.cargo/bin and .rustup/toolchains*/bin had been set before .guix-profile/bin
<Olivetree>when I used rustup to install the toolchains
<Olivetree>If graphics cards weren't so bloody expensive right now, I'd buy a Radeon (mine old nVidia 550Ti is due for an upgrade anyway) and switch to GuixSD
<drakonis>well, intel's releasing their own gpus now
<drakonis>getting intel hardware is reasonably easy and with some of the changes they've been lining up for the kernel such as gpu scheduling
<drakonis>they might be the better option
<Olivetree>They'll still be expensive :P
<lilyp>is nvidia 550Ti not supported by nouveau?
<Olivetree>It is. But nouveau is not enough for my light gaming
<florhizome[m]>Ok i got the services fixed. I did what i described earlier (defined an own Desktop Services variable) like daviwil. But i probably also had the delete gdm in the wrong place.
<florhizome[m]>Now the Installation is running because i have two differing wayland-protocols versions in the profile ... I'm trying to Install wayfire with this but Network-Manager-Applet over gtk needs the lower version ... probably best to leave those experiments Out for now...
<drakonis>they're expensive because it keeps going out of stock for crypto usage
<drakonis>cryptocoin usage
<lilyp>cryptocoins: fuck the climate and the economy :)
<florhizome[m]>*wayfire is an own Definition, it needs several Updates in Terms of wayland libraries
<Olivetree>Yeah, I know. But knowing why doesn't help me in this case
<drakonis>intel's reasonably good at keeping it supplied
<drakonis>plus they're going into the foundry business
<florhizome[m]>Normalize GNU Taler :D
<drakonis>it might help with the shortage
<florhizome[m]>How would i remove something from the default packages?
<florhizome[m]>i.e nm applet
<Olivetree>GNU Taler is nice, but it doesn't help to evade taxes, fight inflation, nor can it be speculative. I have no clue about its decentralization/democratization level (not saying these are all good)
<lilyp>how would crypto bucks even "fight inflation"?
<drakonis>florhizome[m]: i don't remember right now but there's a function you apply to the default list, it is documented
<lilyp>IIRC nm-applet shouldn't even be a "default package" by any stretch
<lilyp>it's probably added by something else e.g. network-manager-service-type
<florhizome[m]>Probably a dependency of xfce
<florhizome[m]>Or that
<Olivetree>lilyp: not all of them. but those that have limited supply like bitcoin cannot inflate. Unless there is a new consensus of the network to change it, of course
<florhizome[m]>How do ppl think Inflation is the big scenario
<lilyp>people don't understand M-C-M' after more than 100 years
<Olivetree>I don't have a problem with things changing prices, be it increasing or decreasing. I have a problem with money printing and given to banks, which is basically stealing from everyone else by effect of dilution
<lilyp>Which is why we need to abolish currency
<drakonis>Olivetree: it certainly did inflate
<drakonis>by quite a lot
<Olivetree>lilyp: disagree. currency is needed. If I have a cow and want to buy vegetables, I don't want to give the whole cow for a few vegetables, or a lot of them which will rot. we need currency. But central currencies are poisonous, and the way I see it, proper crypto currencies are our best bet so far to get rid of them and possible facebook dollars to
<florhizome[m]>"We don't want another black friday" "that was deflation though" "but the state is printing out too much money" "but the state still only creates a very small amount of money"
<lilyp>There are no proper crypto currencies, there are only wastes of paper and wastes of GPU cycles.
<florhizome[m]>Abolish debt first
<florhizome[m]>lilyp: Yup
<lilyp>Or for those travelling back from their time-machine visits to ye olden thymes, there was also valuable metal turned into coins or some such
<Olivetree>It's not always GPU, but point taken. So you mean people won't be able to take out loans?
<florhizome[m]>They are not reflective of any stable economic value
<Olivetree>They are not now because the market cap is still too low, so they become more volatile
<vivien>If we ever recover from the semiconductor shortage, I hope we will abandon bitcoin and friends ^^
<Olivetree>I believe in them. It makes sense to me. Gotta walk the dogs now
<lilyp>We won't, so better watch what dog pictures our overlord Elon Musk tweets next.
<Olivetree>lilyp: Nice one!
<florhizome[m]>If they staibilize, then to the Dollar.
<florhizome[m]>Which will render them utterly useless.
<lilyp>well, they could also Chinese Yuan.
<lilyp>*could also stabilize to the
<Olivetree>Stability relative to commodities is more important and likely in the long term, for me, if they keep printing money
<mitchell>well none of this probably matters if the environment goes off a cliff and the US starts a war with china
<Olivetree>Call me an optimistic but I think only the environment will go to the toilet
<lilyp>Ah well, it's only the environment, we can spawn another for free using crypto.
<mitchell>we can all retreat into our virtual reality headsets and take our nutrients through iv
<dstolfa>lilyp: wait, so you mean crypto currency isn't actually currency and just has imaginary value that is used as a money laundering front for the rich, as well as a way to scam people out of their hard earned money by manipulating the value and taxation when they try to convert back to something like dollars? (:
<mitchell>daddy musk wouldn't do us like that
<Olivetree>Wait, have you seen this great movie called The Matrix? Maybe you didn't hear about it... xD
<mitchell>"one day i'll be rich, then people like me better watch their steps" - fry
<Olivetree>Still less imaginary money than dollars
<mitchell>At least i can wipe my ass with a dollar
<Olivetree>Even better, you'd still be left with a dollar (you know, because its s*it?)
<mitchell>and if i try to wash it, i'll go to jail for laundering
<lilyp>how tf is a number on some disk that any one could change with a magnetic stick and a steady hand more real than a piece of paper?
<mitchell>When the power goes out we still have paper
<mitchell>also i'll never forget the password to my mattress
<lilyp>tech bros did nothing but reinvent fiat currency while calling it something else
<mitchell>cause they didn't want to pay taxes lol
<Olivetree>lilyp: talking about crypto, or about dollar? because it sounds like a dollar, you can't change bitcoin with a magnetic stick
<lilyp>watch me
<lilyp>if it fails, I can still beat up your hard drive
<Olivetree>Yet the blockchain will be intact.
<lilyp>yeah, so?
<Olivetree>If the power goes out enough to stop the blockchain then nothing really matters, we're already back to the dark ages
<lilyp>If I burn a dollar, the bank will still know that I borrowed it
<lilyp>and eventually demand it back (with interest)
<Olivetree>I fail to see the comparison/analogy with bitcoin on that one.
<Olivetree>Or the point of it
<vivien>Burning the dollar is analoguous to changing your copy of the blockchain, you can do it but it won’t change your balance according to external people you can’t influence.
<mitchell>My friend blew the main breaker to his house mining bitcoin
<mitchell>his electricity bill is about 1.5K
<mitchell>He recently moved his stuff to this industrial space that rents out cubicle type spaces with industrial power and such
<mitchell>I wonder what the environmental comparisson between millions of people doing that and the infrastructure required to maintain a paper money economy looks like.
<drakonis>it requires significantly less power to maintain a paper economy right now
<mitchell>Although to be honest, most of the economy is digital already so a lot of the infrastructure is shared
<mitchell>its really the difference of allowing random people to generate new currency vs a centralized authority
<drakonis>its really not
<drakonis>the average cryptocoin has incredibly inefficient infrastructure
<mitchell>how so?
<mitchell>I really don't know this stuff at all
<drakonis>bitcoin can only do 7 transactions per second compared to the millions per second other payment services can do
<drakonis>payment processing services
<mitchell>I suppose the energy required to hash the blockchain is a lot
<mitchell>because you need to do that in order to clear a transaction
<singpolyma>Bitcoin's transaction processing scale doesn't affect it's energy consumption much, though
<drakonis>but it reduces its viability as an actual currency
<drakonis>also the costs of processing a transaction are quite high
<Olivetree>millions per second? I thought vida could only handle some tens of thousands (still orders of magnitude above though)
<singpolyma>They could increase the throughput whenever they want, Bitcoin main has chosen not do, but many others have chosen to make that change
<drakonis>so using it for paying small fees is incredibly expensive
<dhruvin>I believe proof of stake blockchains more or less solves this issue
<drakonis>the bitcoin community chooses not to make it a viable currency, it chooses to make it an asset
<singpolyma>The only true solution to the issues of capitalism incentiviving ecologic harm is to dismantle capitalism
<mitchell>here here!
<lilyp>Plus the amount of "random people" vs. "people who already have large amounts of cash to throw at GPUs" generating currency is probably skewed towards the latter
<mitchell>Thats not much different from the usual though
<singpolyma>drakonis: sure, Bitcoin main is used by many as a currency, but I think others have taken the mantle of that goal by this point while Bitcoin main has other focus, as you say
<vivien>singpolyma, I don’t think so. In a democracy, capitalism can’t do everything, because of regulations. If we make the regulations more precise, we may avoid a lot of harm.
<Olivetree>How would dismantling capitalism be possible without letting go of meritocracy?
<lilyp>Capitalism is not a meritocracy.
<Olivetree>No it's not
<mitchell>In captialism there can be no democracy. The people with the money buy the politicians. the politicians decide how to run elections. Electronic voting using proprietary software is used and no vote can be actually verified.
<Olivetree>But at least it allows it.
<mitchell>Whens the last time congress did anything that helped anyone
<singpolyma>vivien: not just in democracy even. Every government is free to make good policy if they want to. I think we've seen decades of evidence that most governments have little interest in good ecologic policy
<singpolyma>Or good economic policy, for that matter
<mitchell>except china
<Olivetree>dhruvin: proof of stake is good for environment but terribly unfair for society as those with power keep gaining more power than those with less. the cycle continues. proof of work still allows for that but at least there are physical limits.
<florhizome[m]>Interestingly, neither gtk nor nm applet declare a fixed dependency on wayland protocols 🤔
<singpolyma>Power gets more power is sort of how everything works unless you design super hard against it :P
<mitchell>Its a tough cycle
<florhizome[m]>Does that mean if i would build without substitutes they would take my updated Version?
<Olivetree>The only thing I see breaking that cycle is electronically enforced communism. But that kills meritocracy and freedom
<florhizome[m]>Power ist not the problem per se, Domination ist.
<mitchell>I suppose it depends on what your idea of freedom is
<mitchell>I think a planned economy makes a lot of sense with how powerful computers are
<Olivetree>We are humans, most of us, given the chance (power) will attempt to dominate in search of more power
<mitchell>Capitalism makes it impossible for sectors to cooperate
<mitchell>But if the economy were planned, we could say run the steel market at a deficit to fund agriculture to ensure stable food prices
<florhizome[m]>And capitalism only knows domination.
<vivien>There are a lot of places on earth where governments are elected. In those places, voting better is sufficient to change the government.
<lilyp>I think "electronically enforced" communism is an oxymoron, communism being stateless and all.
<florhizome[m]>lilyp: ++
<Olivetree>communism is not stateless... something has the power to enforce it
<Olivetree>which is called the state
<florhizome[m]>Communism ist the utopia of a classless, stateless society.
<singpolyma>Stateless society, as hackers we could call it "functional society" heh, heh
<lilyp>I think most communists would now call the "lower phase of communism" which still requires a state "socialism"
<Olivetree>And it will remain a utopia as it is impossible. Not with free will and all
<florhizome[m]>What you are saying is we have state, and you can't Imagine without it.
<lilyp>You can have a free will and still live in a communist society.
<florhizome[m]>@lilyp we are getting too much into old orthodox concepts lol
<lilyp>It's probably easier for most than in in most present or past societies too.
<Olivetree>Hmm... if everyone's free will is according to that, then yes, you can have stateless communism, otherwise someone needs to maintain order. that would be the state (sorry for not being technically accurate)
<dhruvin>Olivetree: Sorry, I am unable to see how PoS can become unfair for society.
<lilyp>singpolyma: get your flag today:
<mitchell>Not to get to deep into political theory on the guix channel. But when people write about communism being "stateless" it is because marxist/leninists view the state as a requirement to resolve class contradictions. As long as you have classes in society there are contradictions between them. Lenin went on to write about how even after the revolution occurs there are still classes in society, only the role of power has swapped. Because
<mitchell>the classes still exist, the state must continue to exist. He viewed the role of the vanguard party to oversee the transition from private ownership of the means of production to public ownership. This is already no longer capitalism (as defined by the marxists) because the mode of production is no longer "for profit".
<florhizome[m]>Olivetree: Any abstract construct is a Utopia and will remain one, until it is abolished.
<mitchell>As you resolve the class contraditions, you need the state less and less
<mitchell>Of course the anarchists have a totally different take
<pushcx>Does anyone have a recent writeup on doing haskell in guix? I can find some mentions and questions but it doesn't look like there's success stories?
<florhizome[m]>Anarchism is much cooler anyways. Not so ridden with orthodoxy.
<dhruvin>Olivetree: I get the "rich getting richer part of it", and I get that it is bad. But IIUC, validators/minters have no power other than to validate a transaction/block.
<lilyp>wait, there's at least one step between thinking something up and abolishing that would make more sense in this sentence
<mitchell>I view anarchism as very utopian. But I like the spirit of it
<florhizome[m]>If you read much marxist stuff, which is mostly deprecated slander, that might happen ^^
<mitchell>I try to read a lot of stuff. The marxist stuff is generally better researched and more persuassive in my opinion.
<lilyp>Well, there are some things that anarchists typically can't explain, which this "deprecated slander" pointed out.
<mitchell>A lot of it written by people who have actually liberated themselves from imperialism
<florhizome[m]>Most people seem to learn leftist history through Marx and Lenin which means a Viewpoint which was enforced through Lenin
<lilyp>Like how anarchists would deal with counter-revolutions or foreign invasion sans the crumbling in less than a decade.
<florhizome[m]>Yeah that's total bullshitting slander.
<mitchell>I think we should talk about functional package management!
<lilyp>No, seriously though, even Guix isn't stateless.
<lilyp>Trust me, I've messed with its state this very day.
<mitchell>It is transparent though
<vivien>There’s /etc/letsencrypt
<vivien>That’s state
<lilyp>You don't want to touch /var/guix/db ever.
<singpolyma>pushcx: I will be getting more into Haskell on guix soon. Have packaged one of my projects so far
<vivien>I also noticed that rm -rf /var/lib/postgresql to let cuirass forget things is not particularly smart
<Olivetree>dhruvin: It has pretty much the same risk of inflation as current dollar, and also removes the anchor of the value to something physical like electricity costs
<pushcx>singpolyma: ah, a familiar face - well, I hope you write a blog post or publish a repo :)
<nckx>‘That's a nice state machine you've got there. Would be a shame if someone tried to build something… stateless on top of it…’
<jpoiret>even worse, it writes to disk
<florhizome[m]>As If there were no anarchist revolutions and as if other ones were so successfull. As If those were Not political talking points of 100years ago. That's where orthodoxy get's you.
<jpoiret>my disk is non-writable, and hw clock set to epoch
<nckx>The bitcoin/communism party sounds genuinely interesting, but maybe more apropos over at #guix-offtopic, which has an open bar that tends to ‘facilitate’ such discussions.
<florhizome[m]>GNU is state ;P
<dhruvin>Olivetree: Thanks. I will read more about it.
<Olivetree>Stallman for/is President
*dstolfa wonders why communism sounds interesting to people...
<nckx>Anyway, carry on, but please self-organize :)
<florhizome[m]><florhizome[m]> "Interestingly, neither gtk nor..." <- I have an actual problem :D
<vivien>And an intersting one too, apparently.
<lilyp>IIRC that ought to be fixed on c-u-frozen
<lilyp>i.e. gnome should become wayland-capable post merge
<jpoiret>wayland-protocols is just xml files no? only wayland itself relies on it, or wayland compositors right?
<vivien>Is there an inflation of bugs on core-updates-frozen?
<florhizome[m]>If they don't need wayland protocol 1.20 explicitly what's the Problem when my local declaration needs 1.21
<jpoiret>neither gtk nor nm-applet would need it, only gtk needs the wayland library i think
<lilyp>It's not a bug if I understood the problem correctly, it's an observation on current master.
<florhizome[m]>I need a gnomeless guix
<jpoiret>lilyp: gnome always was wayland-capable, only gdm wasn't able to launch wayland sessions
<lilyp>Ah, right
<lilyp>florhizome[m]: don't you get a message stating which two collide?
<jpoiret>wayland-protocols is a propagated inputs of gtk+
<jpoiret>so you can't also install another version of wayland-protocols
<jpoiret>it's weird that it is propagated though
<rekado_>my fellow hackers! I would be happy if someone could comment on this old patch for a lightdm service:
<rekado_>at the time I wasn’t able to follow up, and I think this issue would benefit from a fresh pair of eyes
<rekado_>I think it’s (almost?) good for inclusion, so it really just needs a nod of approval.
<lilyp>rekado_: the placement of quotation marks seems somewhat idiosyncratic and invites a few double takes
<jpoiret>does anyone know why some inputs of gtk need to be propagated?
<jpoiret>i'm not familiar with how it's compiled
<jpoiret>wayland-protocols though should be only a compile-time dependency i think, as it is mostly used to generate the protocol stubs
<florhizome[m]>yup. The nma dependency seems to come from gtk too
<lilyp>I'm not sure, the commit is older than my contributions.
<lilyp>It was added back when wayland-support was added to GTK (in Guix), so chances are that it might have been rash
<florhizome[m]><lilyp> "florhizome: don't you get a..." <- Yes i do... Wayfire and wlroots which are locally declared and nma and gtk 3.24.24
<rekado_>lilyp: true, but that’s easy to change when applying. Thanks for taking a look!
<lilyp>florhizome[m]: Guix has wlroots
<florhizome[m]>Maybe i don't need to propagate wayland-protocols it in my own definitions though.
<florhizome[m]>Yeah 0.12
<florhizome[m]>Thats like a year old
<florhizome[m]>Most things wayland are pretty outdated, since they are also moving fast.
<rekado_>jpoiret: some inputs are propagated because pkgconfig files say that they are “private” dependencies. Not sure if this is still a valid reason.
<lilyp>rekado_ likewise the "const" in lightdm-service-type looks weird
<lilyp>should it be identity?
<jpoiret>but isn't that the other way around? Requires.private doesn't expose to consumers of the library IIUC
<lilyp>Yes, it does (sadly)
<lilyp>pkg-config fails if private requirements are not satisfied at build time
<lilyp>I already started a thread on whether or not that makes it appropriate for propagated-inputs
<jpoiret>uhm, you mean if prog A depends on lib B which itself Requires.private lib C, then lib C needs to be present when compiling A?
<jpoiret>but... isn't that exactly what Requires.private is supposed to avoid?
<reza[m]><pushcx> "Does anyone have a recent..." <- What are you looking for?
<lilyp>jpoiret not quite
<lilyp>Requires.private only affects linker flags, not compile flags
<pushcx>reza[m]: Ideally, a small sample haskell project I could look at and learn from, with some description of importing deps into guix packages.
<jpoiret>hmmm, right, this is what i'm reading as well at
<jpoiret>this is quite annoying though to say the least
<reza[m]>pushcx: I started down this road and made good progress, maybe I find time to publish at least a sample project with a README
<jpoiret>so libraries using pkg-conf are allowed to use headers from libraries they're *not* including with pkg-conf through transitive Requires.private? not very cool
<pushcx>reza[m]: I'd love to see that, please ping me if you do. :)
<GNUtoo>Hi, I've the following warnings when running 'guix system reconfigure /path/to/system.scm': "guix system: warning: cannot determine provenance for current system", "guix system: warning: cannot determine provenance of GNU Guix", and when running twice guix system reconfigure it also tries to recompile again a 3 or 4 packages (like gdm for instance), is there an easy way to fix it?
<singpolyma>I found many if the Haskell packages in guix itself fairly readable
<jpoiret>hmmmm, no i understand, lib B headers would still need to find lib C headers at compile time of app A for example
<GNUtoo>I've tried adding --save-provenance but that didn't solve it. It may be because this Guix system was made with guix from Parabola and then booted, and when that was done I didn't add --save-provenance.
<rekado_>GNUtoo: does “guix describe” work?
<GNUtoo>it says: Generation 1Oct 23 2021 00:15:22(current), guix 4a0cd62, repository URL:, branch: master, commit: 4a0cd6297af35a36e9f492bb234fc110d6423a4d
<jpoiret>lilyp: but surely we don't always do that with all lib dependencies, right? propagating inputs of their own lib dependencies
<GNUtoo>And the return code is 0, so I guess so but I'm not sure exactly how it's supposed to look like
<rekado_>GNUtoo: no, that’s fine.
<rekado_>GNUtoo: sorry, don’t know what’s wrong there.
<florhizome[m]>I would bei rooting for something like a desktop environment profile btw. And a generic Desktop Environment service. Desktop environments install a lot of Interdependent packages that screw other Desktop environments or user packages. This is also not very transparent; the packages that xfce installs are sort of mangled in a metapackage.
<GNUtoo>ok, the hour looks wrong as I did guix reconfigure several times and later than 00:15:22
<jpoiret>florhizome: you could just not use the default DE packages and install the ones you want though
*GNUtoo will retry that commnad right after a new (and long) guix system reconfigure
<jpoiret>it's just that, a default to get started
<florhizome[m]>This would also make it easier to customise DEs or make an own wrapper around some WM.
<lilyp>GNUtoo: when it does nothing at all, it probably won't be recorded either
<lilyp>Not sure what happens if it rebuild an earlier system
<lilyp>jpoiret: There's a thread over at Guix devel, starting here
<jpoiret>DE often don't react well with customization
<lilyp>The initial post has some mistakes, but the discussion following it might have some insights
<jpoiret>thanks! i did not subscribe to guix-devel (didn't even know of its existence tbh)
<GNUtoo>ok, as I understand if I guix pull, it's supposed to do things but if I don't, it's not supposed to re-download things and so on
<lilyp>well, you could also edit your config in some ways (not) changing the output
<Olivetree>Hmm.. guys.. anyway I can relogin without killing X11? :(
<jpoiret>you can exit out of your WM
<Olivetree>Not exactly guix specific, but since guix requires relogins so often
<florhizome[m]><jpoiret> "florhizome: you could just not..." <- It would be an unecessary hassle, though. Let's say i just want to remove one package from xfce and add some cool panel Plugins. If it had an own profile, like guix home has one, that would be a sleepwalk.
<jpoiret>DEs are installed system-wide (most of the time), and i don't think enabling non-declarative system definitions would help with guix reproducibility
<Olivetree>I have no DM, only dwm. If I kill it I lose all my windows and the other X11 session I have running on another graphics card loses image and needs restarting as well
<jpoiret>then no
<singpolyma>Olivetree: if you run dwm in a while loop you can exit it to restart without losing windows
<jpoiret>yes but that would not help relogging in
<lilyp>ah, but which dwm would that while loop use?
<jpoiret>with some work (i plan to also do that) we could possibly manage current profiles inside some "session" (ie agetty or X11 or Wayland) without having to restart the session itself, because it's a bother
<Olivetree>but even if I had an DM/DE I would lose my current progress logging out, right?
<singpolyma>Could have a while loop re-source the profile and hash dwm
<florhizome[m]>Also the point is about separating those DE inherent packages, since they often cause pain. Making a Profile for each WM/DE would make sense anyways.
<jpoiret>singpolyma: +1
<jpoiret>the problem is that most (if not all) graphical sessions have no way of changing their running env variables
<jpoiret>or at least i think so
<Olivetree>singpolyma: re-sourcing leads to havig duplicate entries in PATH
<jpoiret>even less through a shell script
<jpoiret>you could save your env variables on the first run, and then reset to those then source the new profile each time
<jpoiret>another thing i've been thinking about is closer integration of profiles, now that we have guix home: you don't need most things to be in the profile, only in the store. You could then selectively start programs with some profiles if you wanted to (eg for a terminal)
<Olivetree>Is guix home useful in a non GuixSD? I skimmed the docs but felt useless. Maybe I read it wrong
<singpolyma>You need a profile mostly for gc root,yeah?
<singpolyma>In my use case we also have a profile per app in the server, to make rollbacks easier
<jpoiret>Olivetree: if you plan on running mostly guix-installed software, it is very useful
<jpoiret>if not well it is still a nice configuration files manager
<florhizome[m]>Unfortunately it has not arrived on my manjaro installation yet
<florhizome[m]>don't know why
<nckx>florhizome[m]: Arrived?