<ajarara>Is there a way to run the graphical installer on an already running guix system? Something like `sudo "$(guix build -e '(and (use-modules (gnu) (gnu installer)) (installer-program))')"`
<ajarara>it almost works, but I get some error a few steps in
<Christoph[m]>In the current (3rd) episode of https://haskell.foundation/podcast/ , they argue that a configuration language should not be Turing complete in order to prevent dangerous attacks. Guix uses guile as configuration language. Is there a danger there?
<ajarara>probably another idea is to run the installer image as a VM, though I'd need to mount the new drive in the VM somehow
<apteryx>gabr000: looks like it's lacking a gdk related python library?
<apteryx>mbakke: I was wondering why the likes of 'third_party/wayland-protocols' and other 'standard' libraries can't be removed from the sources of ungoogled-chromium? I guess it's build system doesn't allow for it?
*apteryx is happy to see xz using 2400% CPU on the core-updates-frozen branch ;-)
<abrenon>Guest98: if they distribute binary only, you can be sure that it will never be packaged in the official channel, but have you searched other non-official ones ? there's nonguix, there are a couple for games too
<Guest98>ye i literally searched for every channel i could fine
<robin>one of my first guix packages was sml/nj -- little did i know what i was getting myself into -- and i think there was some pregenerated cruft i wasn't sure how to regenerate (without sml/nj...)
<jpoiret>anyone else having /builder for `/gnu/store/snw86i0xknnb21p5jn8m7hcl24wxpniq-guix-package-cache.drv' failed to produce output path `/gnu/store/j8ln50nfydlcw6vj1g4ikxlcxl1nffaf-guix-package-cache' while `guix pull --branch=core-updates-frozen`?
<apteryx>civodul: Hello! I got a gawk test failure rebuilding core-updates-frozen(-batched-changes); just created a ticket for it, 51286
<robin>"Warning: When pulling the latest sources via subversion, there is no guarantee that config/install.sh will operate successfully due to a lack of usable bootfiles. In this case you might be able to generate new bootfiles using the bootstrap compiler (of an older version). Even that can be very difficult or even impossible, however, in which case you will have to wait for the next working version to be released." -- https://www.smlnj.org/dist/working/110.99.2/inde
<robin>(idk if fluet's claims about polyml shipping with "ASCII blobs" are correct or not)
<robin>and "As for the particular issue with the make polyml-mlton depending on an installed mlton: the reason is that the Makefile is using mlton -stop f to determine the in-order list of source files." is what i was referring to with mlton calls in the mlton makefiles
<robin>polyml does have at least some...odd-looking files like bootstrap/bootstrap64.txt (a 22k-line file filled with lines like "3946:C4|@22482,@13637,@22529,@22531")
<robin>and the .c files are tiny (i was under the impression it was implemented in c, maybe it's more along the lines of an sml->c compiler)
<zacque>robin: But can't be sure that it's useful though, I didn't look into the code
<apteryx>I've pushed 3 fixup commits to core-updates-frozen-batche-changes -- if ungoogled-chromium builds there, I'm positive a big chunk of the world will also (I've tested with a rather large profile).
<jpoiret>what's in core-updates-frozen-batched-changes?
<zacque>robin: Ya, it's more like sml->c++ compiler. I tried running polyc in "guix environment" and had to include the "gcc-toolchain" cause it complaint g++ is not found
<zacque>robin: It's in Lisp! Ha! Quote secton 2.1: "Lisp 6 was the language used in the Stanford LCF project [Milner 1972] that Milner had developed in collaboration with Richard Weyhrauch and Malcolm Newey before coming to Edinburgh"
<robin>poplog supports sml! i doubt it's directly useful but certainly historically interesting (simultaneously supported POP-11, CL, Prolog and SML)
<dstolfa>the history of ML is it being used as a meta language (hence ML) in a proof assistant based FOL, which over time evolved into HOL because FOL wasn't a good enough abstraction for mike to model hardware. however, it turned out that HOL was not only sufficient, but near perfect for modelling hardware (and proving things about it). out of that grew the programming languages you know (SML, OCaml, F#, ...) and a
<dstolfa>number of proof assistants with roots in LCF (Isabelle, HOL4, HOL-Light, etc)
<dstolfa>if you want to use SML these days, the best two choices are probably PolyML and mlton
<dstolfa>Poly plays nice with proof assistants as it's usually the basis of their implementation
<civodul>apteryx: that said, i'd really like to get rid of hooks as much as possible as discussed the other day; do you know long this one takes?
<robin>dstolfa, oh neat, i'll definitely have to read that. i've used Coq quite a bit but never really got into the history of ML variants and related proof assistants (despite reading some of milner's textbooks)
<zacque>robin: What's so interesting about POPLOG? Does it has something to do with prolog?
<dstolfa>robin: some of the references from those slides are worth reading in a bit more detail if you're interested, especially Avra's work
<zacque>dstolfa: Thanks for the history recap and the PDF file!
<robin>zacque, pop-11 by itself didn't sound terribly interesting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POP-11), the interesting part to me is supporting cl, prolog, and sml in one runtime (although i guess you could say .NET/CIL has reached a similar point, though i don't know if there's a "prolog#")
<robin>ah, computing archaeology. search for lisp and find references to ISWIM...(in the SML history pdf)
<attila_lendvai>civodul, i don't understand what you need from me wrt the git-authenticate issue (http://issues.guix.gnu.org/50814). there is a test among the commits that documents what i believe is a serious bug. if you apply the 3 test commits, then you can see for yourself the newly added test fail (make check TESTS="tests/git-authenticate.scm"). then the only question left is whether what i wrote in the test are valid expectations or
<attila_lendvai>not. you can completely ignore the two other commits until you're convinced that there is an actual bug.
<robin>ok, poplog is a dead end i think (all the porting guides i've skimmed involve cross-compilation from an existing installation)
<civodul>attila_lendvai: hi! like i wrote, the discussion has gone too far and it's not longer clear to me what issues there are
<civodul>there's one issue you mention (authenticating the intro commit) which i said is not a bug to me
<civodul>then there are patches for mostly unrelated things (right?)
<civodul>too many things for my little head in this issue
<attila_lendvai>civodul, i'm sorry for the lack of clarity, but it's not possible to cut the issue/patchset into anything smaller. i did some cleanups/refactorings that are needed for the new test. all i can do is cut the issue into two: 1) add a test 2) fix the bug. but that's equivalent to applying only commit 1-3, and then 4-5.
<attila_lendvai>scratch the specific ordering i mentioned above, the commits are ordered differently so that the failing test doesn't break git bisect.
<jpoiret>i just ran `guix pull --branch=core-updates-frozen` and now i can't find any substitutes even though ci.guix.gnu.org reports build successes for most packages i checked (`guix weather` reports them as not available tho)
<rekado_>jpoiret: there have been a few changes to that branch and for the latest commits the evaluations have not been successful
<attila_lendvai>rekado_, it's something like a dummy package that only serves for specifying dependencies that you want available in a shell, i.e. to be used with the nixos equivalent of guix environment -l guix.scm
<rekado_>it’s an obstacle for me too, as I’m trying to fix bugs, but now I’m tasked to build llvm, gtk, and all that on my laptop…
<rekado_>attila_lendvai: you can use “--ad-hoc this that foo” with “guix environment”
<attila_lendvai>rekado_, i know, but i'd prefer to have a file that i check into my project, and any guix users can just fire up guix environment -l on it
<robin>actually, from src/mosmlb/README.md: "TODO [...] 5. Test suite. [...] * Compile MLton if possible." :P
<robin>and moscow ml actually looks like a decent implementation itself
<robin>(doesn't help with smlnj, but i could imagine it replacing smlnj's role in hcoop.net development: fast mosml compiler for hacking, slow mlton compiler for deployment. for the...2 members (myself included) who're guix users anyway ;))
<lfam>awb99: In short, if you want to get rid of it, you should do `guix package --upgrade=. --install=pdfarranger`. That is, you should upgrade the entire profile at the same time you install pdfarrange
<lfam>It means that you already have a package in your profile that propagates python-pillow, but an older version than the pillow that is propagated by what you are installing
<lfam>Propagation of packages means that they are installed into your profile along with the package that propagates them, and it's something for packages to avoid when possible, for reasons like this
<lfam>So, you could upgrade the entire profile, or try only upgrading scipy when you install pdfarranger
<lfam>A more long-term option is to use a manifest with your profile, instead of imperatively managing your profile by adding and removing packages one at a time
<lfam>By using a manifest, you ensure that your entire profile is based on a single Guix revision, rather than being composed of whatever Guix revision was current at the time you installed X or Y package
<lfam>I meant to say that *packagers* should avoid using propagation when possible. Packages are not sentient and don't attempt things :)
<lfam>Unfortunately, some languages (like Python) don't offer a better option for dependency management than propagation
<awb99>thank you Ifam! what a detailed explaination!
<awb99>the weird thing is, that both python-pillow have 8.1.1. I guess one of them has grafts applied, and the other has not?
<lfam>Grafts should always be applied unless you explicitly passed --no-grafts
<lfam>Notice, although they are both 8.1.1, the hash portion of the store items' names are different
<lfam>That means that *something* is different in the dependency graph of these pillows
<lfam>And so, to Guix, they are different "versions" of the package
<awb99>Could you tell me what "propagation" means?
<lfam>It means that the propagated package is installed into your profile
<lfam>Just like pdfarranger. Normally, dependencies are not installed into the profile, but are instead found by other means
<lfam>However, `guix environment --ad-hoc foo` can be annoying for some use cases, especially for graphical applications. Like, if you want to start the program with a launcher such as dmenu, using an ad-hoc environment won't make the program available to dmenu
<talos>Hi guix, hope everyone is doing well. What's everyone's opinions on BTRFS rollback on distros like OpenSUSE, Fedora. And also things like Fedora Silverblue and so forth? Of course I prefer guix, but just wondering lol
<excalamus>when I call guix commands from an org file, the output has lots of control characters in it. Org mode sees the term as dumb. AFAIK, I'm using the default Guix System bashrc, etc. At any rate, I don't see anything that stands out as a problem. Maybe the default bash_completion is messing with it?
<excalamus>the issue seems to be the spinner printing a character, backspacing over it, and printing something else
<Noisytoot>unless someone else downloaded it and can resend it to you, probably not
<attila_lendvai>so annoying... i saved it in a TODO in the code, and now it's gone.
<nckx>attila_lendvai: Not unless it happened to be archived elsewhere. I wish people set Never, but I've probably forgot, and unfortunately linking to https://paste.debian.net/?expire=-1 in the topic doesn't work.
<jab>nckx: how's your plan for world domination going?
<attila_lendvai>socialism and capitalism are anti-concepts anyway, i.e. using such concepts in your sensemaking *hinders* your ability to make sense of your sensory input. i recommend using clearer concepts like property rights, and a direct consequence of it, freedom to trade your stuff. but damn... /me gets back to coding.
<lilyp>And also they're really anti-rights/anti-freedoms.
*nckx has to go AFK for a little while, so I hope my presence remains unnecessary :)
<attila_lendvai>lilyp, civilization is measured by how much we can avoid violence while we are resolving our conflicts, and the idea of property rights is a cornerstone of that. it might well be a social construct -- whatever that may mean --, but that doesn't make it any less essential for a reasonable coexistence of a large numbers of humans.
<lilyp>Are we really avoiding violence much, though?
<lilyp>If you were a black person in America, you'd without a doubt answer "no".
<ajarara>do the contents of .guix-profile in the user dir get decided by the system config?
<nckx>You like property rights, that's great, I hope we can all agree that this doesn't logically imply they're not granted by others, now let's get back to Guix discussion.
<lilyp>ajarara: no, they're decided by your install/update actions or alternatively a manifest
<nckx>Sorry, didn't receive ajarara's message in time, now I'm the one dragging it on. Apologies.
<attila_lendvai>vivien, edging a bit back on topic: ideas are outside the domain of property rights, because if i "take" your published idea, then you don't have any less of anything. wanna keep it a secret? then don't publish it. "intellectual property" is a torturing of the original concept.
<lilyp>But what if you stole my secret from my private property PC and published it?
<ajarara>Ah if you imperatively do `guix install foo` it updates it. That's why mine is empty.
<lilyp>You can split it over several files and use -m manifest1.scm -m manifest2.scm
<lilyp>nckx: Nah, the bugs are a feature of the idea :)
<ajarara>I'm looking to be able to use emacs/bash to imperatively install packages, then have those be captured in a checkout. Trying to avoid having to edit files manually (it's what I do now, if I want something I just edit the system config and rebuild)
*attila_lendvai is back at patching up the go importer; a tiny step towards technology that increases freedom
<ajarara>I think I understand the disclaimer with channels: install a package foo, update channels, install a package bar. Foo may be out of date, and a rebuild from manifest/channel exports will inadvertently upgrade foo, right?
<jab>well I'm getting pretty satisfied with my opensmtpd-service...I've got the records straightened out and I've got the procedure (opensmtpd-configuration->string works fairly well.
<jab>Now it's a matter of turning that string into a file in /gnu/store and telling opensmtpd to use that as it's configuration file.
<jab>and flushing out and supporting all of the opensmtpd options. I do not think I support all of the match, filter, listen on options just yet.
<talos>Hi guix, I see on the latest builds download page that there's an option for Pinebook Pro images. I plan to try it later. In any case, do y'all plan to ever make Raspberry Pi images? I think Guix on a Pi with an SSD would work well
<talos>And if not a pi, then say Odroid or those other Pine SBCs?
<talos>BTW,what is a good book/tutorial to learn guile. Also, how does one delete previous generations of the system. I am using the Guix System and not on a foreign distro. Do I just need to run guix gc as root?
<singpolyma>talos: the guile manual is quite readable and complete in terms of technical content (if maybe outdated and funny in terms of social context)
<nckx>talos: I can answer only your last question: ‘guix system delete-generations [MIN-AGE]’, e.g., ‘2m’ (m for months!).
<nckx>To actually free the space, yes, ‘guix gc’ (needn't be as root AFAIK).
<nckx>It's confusing, I don't blame you one bit. The root == everyone behaviour is already iffy IMO. Elsewhere, we have to teach users not to think of ‘root’ as ‘the system’, then this.
<nckx>talos: Thanks ☺ No idea if we're all guys though.
<talos>Ah right, well, I wasn't trying to exclude anyone lol. Y'all get the point tho :D , no matter who y'all are, y'all are awesome.
<nckx>I didn't think you were and thanks 😊 I'm sure you are too. You're using Guix (System!), for starters. Hope someone can help you with your other questions, if not, the help-guix mailing list is also worth a try.
<rekado_>I’m still having problems with my Guix git checkout
<rekado_>I got past the translations problems by deleting the generated texi files
<rekado_>but now I’m getting C++ errors when building nix/nix-daemon/guix_daemon-nix-daemon.o