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<hwpplayer1>nckx: I will send you a link for my video telling GUIX
<hwpplayer1>are you there ?
<hwpplayer1>Or can I send my short youtube video here ?
<nckx>hwpplayer1: I'm not always around. On-topic YouTube links are welcome here! AFAIK there are several free ways to watch those.
<hwpplayer1> it should be like that
<hwpplayer1>Search GNU GUIX on Youtube is better
<hwpplayer1>I am working on a motto and a logo and wallpaper
<mekeor[m]>if anyone is interested, here's my guix-system-declaration for my server, including certbot/letsencrypt, nginx, gitlab (inside a docker container), an mcron-service running domain-connect-dyndns from my guix-channel ) and a self-made ssh-firewall based upon nftables:
<hwpplayer1>mekeor[m]: Thanks great
<hwpplayer1>mekeor[m]: It seems like a bash script but a Lisp implementation
<hwpplayer1>is it correct ?
<mstrom[m]>What’s the equivalent to shell-command-to-string in guile?
<mekeor[m]>hwpplayer1: what exactly seems like a bash-script? it is guile/scheme. one string-value is a nftables-configuraiton. another string-value is pretty much a shell-command
<mekeor[m]>mstrom: so you want the stdio-output of a shell-command as a string?
<mstrom[m]>mekeor: yes! That or the output of the program directly, I guess
<mstrom[m]>specifically I want to use the string I get from “wg show wg0 fwmark”
<hwpplayer1>mekeor[m]: Okay got it
<mstrom[m]>for my nftables firewall ;)
<mekeor[m]>mstrom: coool, that sounds interesting! i just used a search engine, retrieving this:
<mekeor[m]>mstrom: maybe like this? (let* ((port (open-input-pipe "wg show wg0 fwmark")) (str (read-line port))) ; from (ice-9 rdelim) (close-pipe port) str)
<mekeor[m]>mstrom: but i'm not sure if this is actually a good idea. i mean, the system-declaration gets somewhat confusing with this. i wonder when exactly the wg-command will be executed when you run guix-system-reconfigure
<mekeor[m]>s/; from (ice-9 rdelim)//
<mstrom[m]>that’s all right, it just has to run after the wireguard service creates wg0, so i just have to make the nftables service run after that
<mstrom[m]>mekeor: thanks for that clarification!
<mstrom[m]>seems very verbose but I’ll try it
<mekeor[m]>mstrom: also, folks at #guile might be able to help even better :D
<mstrom[m]>true that!
<mstrom[m]>nevertheless, thanks!
<mstrom[m]>holy moly it works
<mekeor[m]>mstrom: also i wonder if you could/should call "wg" as a gexp… hmmm
<mekeor[m]>nice :D
<mekeor[m]>something like #~(#$wg-package-name "/bin/wg show wg0 fwmark") ?
<terpri>someone shared an up-to-date firefox package with me, ty to them; now i can use (free) container-based privacy extensions again
<terpri>i still hope to track down the audio distortion bug in icecat (though maybe it'll disappear on its own after firefox esr is based on version 90+ later this year, vs. 78.x now)
<raghavgururajan>leoprikler: You around? :)
<mekeor[m]>terpri: which container-based privacy extensions are you referring to?
<terpri>mekeor[m], if i try to install Multi-Account Containers or Temporary Containers through, i get a message that the extension is "corrupt". i didn't investigate past that
<terpri>plain firefox is good enough for me tbh, as long as EME is disabled (mozilla's telemetry is also one of the few telemetry systems i trust, along with, e.g., debian popcon, though i understand why many people may not want them)
<terpri>and i check licenses (and sometimes read source code) for the extensions i use
<terpri>(i worked closely with mozillians on bignums-for-JS, otherwise i'd probably be more cautious about telemetry, addons, etc.)
<terpri>actually, packaging libre extensions as sideloaded ones might be a neat project; debian used to do something like that iirc
<terpri>maybe i'll investigate the "corrupt extension" issue more; i'm not sure what could be causing it, *maybe* some error in version/variant negotiation because icecat has a unique User-Agent string, or something like that
<terpri>it seems unlikely that they'd allow something like Multi-Account Containers to break for firefox esr
<apteryx>I'm a bit puzzled by the pid argument that fork+exec-command/container wants
<apteryx>The only usage of it in Guix is in gnu/services/base.scm, and it seems if I don't have any specific PID to pass I can pass that of the parent
<apteryx>via (getpid)
*apteryx tries
<apteryx>actually I'm surprised that make-forkexec-constructor/container doesn't end up calling fork+exec-command/container.
<terpri>apteryx, ends up calling container-excursion* with the pid, and ignoring the pid for other calls
<terpri>"Run THUNK as a child process within the namespaces of process PID and return the exit status." is the docstring for the more primitive container-excursion
<terpri>looks like you stay in the same container if you pass (getpid) (no setns call)
<terpri>based on the tests, perhaps you're supposed to call run-container to get a pid?
<terpri>i'm just hopping around the source tree, so might be way off-base
<terpri>it would be a bit funny for fork+exec-command/container to sometimes not bother with the "container" part
<apteryx>yeah, I'm doing the same, but still confused
<apteryx>seems run-container is closer to what I expected fork+exec-command/container to be (an imperative equivalent to make-forkexec-constructor/container)
<terpri>ah, the three hard problems of CS. naming, and off-by-one errors...can't remember the last one
<apteryx> wasn't it cache invalidation?
<terpri>that's it! naming and cache invalidation (don't worry, i'm just under bombardment by cosmic rays and my mom couldn't afford ECC memory)
<terpri>i should look up scsh sometime, i wonder how close guix is to having an internal equivalent (given all the posix interaction it has do perform)
<iis>Hello, How to modify permanently /etc/hosts file in guix? In linux Mint I do that as root user and change it with nano or gedit. In gnu guix modifications to /etc/hosts file are no longer after reboot.
<apteryx>the operating-system record has a 'host-file' field you can use to define the content of /etc/hosts
<apteryx>it's a file-like object (such as retured by plain-file from (guix gexp))
<apteryx>for an example, grep the sources for default-/etc/hosts, which is the default value
<iis>apteryx: where is located the operating-system record?
<apteryx>(gnu system)
<apteryx>terpri: eh, I just realized even though my Shepherd start slot needs to be a custom lambda because I need to do more than just calling the lambda produced by make-forkexec-constructor/container, I can still use make-forkexec-constructor/container, bind its result to some variable, and call that proc at my convenience :-)
<apteryx>so I shouldn't need to figure out exactly how it works (yet)
***iyzsong-- is now known as iyzsong-w
<leoprikler>raghavgururajan: what's up?
<tissevert>hello guix
<mothacehe>hey guix!
<meo>hmmm, should there be a chapter in the manual about hardware security keys
***iyzsong-- is now known as iyzsong-w
Quits:jess (jess@freenode/staff/jess) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
Quits:ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
***services. sets mode: +o ChanServ
Quits:grumble (~Thunderbi@freenode/staff/grumble) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. I'm leaving freenode forever and I recommend you drop your NickServ account to keep your data safe.)))
***Kimapr9 is now known as Kimapr
<mstrom[m]> huh
<mstrom[m]>going on right now on #freenode
<mstrom[m]>remind me why we don’t all move to the matrix room since we have one? :)
<raghavgururajan>leoprikler: Does v2 of #48459 look good?
<tissevert>mstrom[m]: yeah about this do you actually understand what's going on ?
<tissevert>(also, I have no idea how to use matrix and still haven't figured what it really is)
<mstrom[m]>tissevert: i guess some admins are handing over data to some entity
<mstrom[m]>I only just learned of this so I dunno
<tissevert>yeah same here
*raghavgururajan would advocate for xmpp instead of matrix
<tissevert>but I'm kind of wondering «what entity» ^^' and what for ? and… whaaat ?! I mean freenode has been around for so long, I couldn't imagine stuff like this happening
<mstrom[m]>i could, their whole demand you register with nickserv to even be allowed to use crypto has always looked weird to me
<tissevert>hmmm true
<mstrom[m]>debian and many others have been on oftc instead of freenode for a long time
<tissevert>but I mean… what «data» do they have to hand over ?
<tissevert>my nick and my password (if they are stupid enough to keep in clear and not hashed but I don't think so) ?
<meo>tldr one of staff members sold a holding corporation to the PIA people, and the PIA people apparently went to court and demanded access to freenode user database
<meo>and now the court ordered to turn it over
<tissevert>^^ no kidding ?
<tissevert>thanks for the link
<mstrom[m]>much appreciated
<mstrom[m]>tissevert: what data? Logs from all you said in group chats + your email I guess
<tissevert>why am I stupid like this ? : /
<leoprikler>raghavgururajan: ; for patch-shebangs phase <- you don't need to patch all shebangs
<tissevert>many chans have public logs but it's true they have all my private conversations… hmmm… I'm glad I used a dedicated email
<mstrom[m]>tissevert: Many public logs don’t contain the nicks’ connection details, and some may not even contain timestamps
<mstrom[m]>raghavgururajan: do you know we have 237 people in our matrix chan already? do we also have a xmpp chan?
***irfus- is now known as irfus
***leebilmeow[m] is now known as emestee[m]
<hwpplayer1>hi people!
<tissevert>yo !
<hwpplayer1>I always welcome channel as "hi people!"
<hwpplayer1>I am not king of course :D
<hwpplayer1>And you are not my "people"
<tissevert>feewww that sure is a relief
<tissevert>also, I wouldn't greet my king with a mere «yo» I presume
<hwpplayer1>Yo man what up dear king :D
<hwpplayer1>What are you up to tissevert
<hwpplayer1>What is cooking in Guix ?
<tissevert>officially : preparing a bunch of slides for a conference in June but in actuality writing a mini-essay in reply to someone on the Fediverse
<hwpplayer1>I focused on GNU again with GUIX
<hwpplayer1>I do not want to run Trisquel or other systemd distributions
<hwpplayer1>GUIX is enough for all my needs
<hwpplayer1> I can offer another logo for source code
<meo>great matrix bridge isnt relaying messages, lovely
<hwpplayer1> what about this for src ?
<tissevert>hwpplayer1: I'm not sure it fits with the overall visual identity of the rest of the web site but why not ?
<tissevert>I have no idea how this kind of suggestion is reviewed ? I suppose there's a repos for the website and you could submit a patch request ? is that how it works ?
<hwpplayer1>tissevert: Do you like to that for me ?
<tissevert>what do you mean ?
<hwpplayer1>send the patch for us tissevert
<tissevert>no, for various reasons: first I think everyone should get credit for their contribution, second, I personally like the icon the way it is and third : this was a genuine idea, I have no idea how this works and if the site is open to contribution like the rest of guix is, I don't even know the corresponding repository if there is such a thing, and, like you I'm new around here and still discovering
<tissevert>how things work
<tissevert>I was just trying to suggest a possibility of how things could work if they were like handled like the source code
<hwpplayer1>I do not be upset
<hwpplayer1>Okay I was just excited that's all
<tissevert>I hope not, because it wasn't my intent to upset you: if you think your proposal would improve things, it should be reviewed properly
<tissevert>hwpplayer1: and it's a good thing, excitement is a drive that can prompt us to accomplish a lot
<hwpplayer1>tissevert: Thanks for your kind words
<tissevert>you're welcome
<tissevert>if I were you I'd just stick around until someone who actually knows about those things come around and can tell you how to submit your proposal properly
<hwpplayer1>Yes I am here
<hwpplayer1>Wow good concept
<apteryx>mbakke: hello! I get a test failure following the ell update:
<apteryx>for anyone wanting to use the opendht service, please beware; it currently hangs the system at boot :-/
<meo>folks, in case you aren't paying attention, freenode is undergoing a corporate hostile takeover
<apteryx>where did you learn about it?
<tissevert>meo: still a bit parallized by the news, sorry
<tissevert>what would you recommend ?
<meo>urgh dumb bridge
<meo>this is the new network being set up by people who resigned
<tissevert>so a mere migration and we're good ? the malicious «lawful» people who tricked freenode into giving their data will bite into nothingness and «freenode» will continue as it is under a different name somewhere else ?
<meo>there is a list of links circulated in #freenode right now explaining the situation
<meo>tldr yes
<taylan>I can't seem to connect to
<meo>its not alive yet
<cbaines>any tips on forcibly replacing a store item?
<taylan>oh it is, I was missing the irc. part of the domain. (TLS) works fine.
<taylan>I'm now the OP of #guile, #guix, and #scheme :P (no worries I'd give them away) hmm, how does one prevent trolls from abusing this tho? I guess the Libera staff will have a lot to do.
<tissevert>still can't connect, I get 104 errors
<meo>use port 6667
<tissevert>no, it's 6697 according to, (I was missing the -ssl option of my IRC client)
<meo>doesnt work for me
<civodul>cbaines: hey! i think that's not quite possible
<tissevert>what error do you get ?
<meo>reset by peer
<civodul>cbaines: if you "guix archive --import" it, nothing will happen if the store item already exists (IIRC)
<taylan>civodul: I opened and can give you channel ownership when you want :P
<tissevert>that's the one I got at first because of the weird syntax of my client (weechat), do you use the correct port ? (weechat has a weird /6697 syntax instead of the usual :6697)
<taylan>I think nickserv registration doesn't work yet though
<civodul>taylan: what's and "why should i care"? :-)
<taylan>civodul: apparently where Freenode staff moved so it might become "the new Freenode" I guess, we'll see:
<civodul>oh, i see
<tissevert>civodul: I made a toot on the fediverse
<tissevert>legal takeover or something it seems
<davexunit>for background on the freenode takeover
<davexunit>RIP freenode
<civodul>hmm yeah
<mbakke>apteryx: I'm not able to reproduce the ell test failure, can you try with e.g. --cores=1?
<joshuaBPMan>davexunit: thanks for sharing!
<davexunit>I just created my account and will join the guile/guix channels there
<davexunit>see y'all on the other side!
<tissevert>see ya davexunit
<taylan>tissevert: which part of the fediverse are you in?
<civodul>hey mbakke! what was the status of bumping GCC to v9/10 on core-updates?
<civodul>i'm tempted to try and see, but wouldn't want to redo what's already been done
<civodul>efraim bumped to GCC 8, which is already an improvement
<efraim>When I naively bumped it to 10 mesa built just fine
<efraim>I hope to successfully build guile-final for powerpc on core-updates today and push it tonight or tomorrow
<civodul>efraim: oh so perhaps bumping to 10 "just works"?
<efraim>That would be nice
<civodul>well if you built everything up to mesa, that's a good sign, no?
<efraim>I was more worried about choosing between gtk2 support for icedtea vs pulling in rust as a dependency
<apteryx>efraim: I think we'll have to bite pulling rust as a dependency
<efraim>Should be good, I normally use mesa as a benchmark of working or not
<apteryx>we can half the rust bootstrap time again using mrustc starting at 1.39
*efraim heads afk
<civodul>apteryx: re halving rust bootstrap, good!
<civodul>as for icedtea depending on Rust... beh
<apteryx>currently it's 16 hours on master and 8 hours on core-updates
<apteryx>gdk-pixbuf should depend on rust for SVG support; I've yet to fix this on staging, there's a cycle to fix, but the regular 'gdk-pixbuf' should really be 'gdk-pixbuf+svg'
<apteryx>we could keep 'gdk-pixbuf-sans-svg' for special cases, but that one should never be propagated as that too easily leads to erroneously linking against it and then wondering why GTK apps don't render SVG icons.
<mbakke>civodul: the big remaining blockers for GCC 10 are texlive and nss -- I am almost done with the former (TeX 2020 upgrade), but still ironing out issues further in the graph in order to actually test things
<civodul>mbakke: oooh, i did see "fix GCC 10 builds" commit of yours, nice!
<mbakke>yes, most of my recent commits have been to fix GCC 10 or Python 3.9 issues, even on 'master' :-)
<mbakke>civodul: guile-ssh is failing since the switch to Guile 3.0.7; I reported it here but having a hard time figuring out what's going on:
<mbakke>which in turn prevents cuirass evaluations of core-updates from completing
<civodul>i'll take a look
<mbakke>awesome :)
<civodul>(to Shepherd, too!)
<munksgaard>I've just installed guix and the tmux package, but tmux gives me the following error when I try to run it: "invalid LC_ALL, LC_CTYPE or LANG". Does anyone know what could be wrong?
<munksgaard>Both LANG and LC_CTYPE are set to en_US.UTF-8, while LC_ALL is empty.
<apteryx>Interesting that this Andrew Lee person apparently seeking to assert control over freenode is associated with Handshake, the same org that gave FSF 1M worth of bitcoins in 2018
<munksgaard>emestee: running `locale` doesn't give me any errors, at least.
<apteryx>well, I haven't checked the facts, perhaps it was a joke, nevermind
<munksgaard>emestee: Same. No errors, just a bunch of locale names. Though I guess the names are not quite the same as what is specified in my locale...
<munksgaard>en_US.UTF-8 vs en_US.utf8
<munksgaard>emestee: I'm on some RHEL system, but I have glibc-common.x86_64 installed. Let me see if there are any other packages I can install...
<munksgaard>But, can't I fix it through guix? I thought that was the idea :)
<roptat>munksgaard, do you have glibc-locales (or maybe glibc-utf8-locales) installed?
<munksgaard>roptat: There doesn't seem to be any such packages available on the RHEL system. I've got glibc-common.x86_64 and glibc-locale-source.x86_64, both of which I've installed.
<roptat>I mean, from guix
<munksgaard>Yes! That worked
<munksgaard>Thanks both :)
<munksgaard>And sorry for the misunderstanding
<munksgaard>I guess I was confused that tmux didn't install glibc-utf8-locales automatically, if it was needed :)
<cbaines>civodul, unfortunately, I need to replace some store items, so I'm going to have to do it one way or the other
<cbaines>looks like I'll need to battle the guix-daemon again
<apteryx>off topic but yeah, the Andrew Lee at the heart of the Freenode drama is apparently Private Internet Access's founder, and as been associated with the Handshake foundation (see:
<cbaines>I've just managed to get back in to a graphical session though, so maybe my battle is almost won
<cbaines>I did delete a net-base output from the store, which looked broken since it just contained 3 empty directories...
<cbaines>... but it turns out the system won't boot without that, so I had to put it back, through the Guile rescue shell
<apteryx>mbakke: seems I'm only able to reproduce the ell failure on a 3900X machine (24 logical cores). On my 4 cores desktop I couldn't make the build fail in 10 rounds.
<munksgaard>The manual demonstrates guix pack with the command `guix pack guile emacs geiser`, but geiser doesn't seem to be a package any more? Where can I submit a bug report or something?
<apteryx>efraim: are you able to reproduce a non-deterministic test failure with the 'ell' package on master? I think you have access to a 3900X cpu
<efraim>I can check it later tonight, I have a 3900XT
<efraim>I also have one with the guile test suite
<apteryx>ok, cool
<apteryx>there's a bug report about the ell test failure, if you can reproduce you can mention it there
<abcdw>hi guix o/
<civodul>munksgaard: oh thanks for reporting it, will fix!
<munksgaard>civodul: No problem, happy to be of service :)
<mitzman>any estimations on when this channel will officially switch away from freenode?
<katco>and to what? having this conversation in a few other channels. i've been advocating for matrix.
<tissevert>mitzman: is there a consensus on this decison ? is it a when and not an if ?
<mitzman>my bad for the assumption. on the other hand, it's more in the spirit of libre/free software to switch away from servers now owned by an organization.
<katco>good point tissevert
<apteryx>civodul: not using the containerized version of make-forkexec-constructor resolves the boot hang problem seen when using the opendht service: Could forgotten mappings lead to this?
<apteryx>the service runs fine on a 'booted' system
<apteryx>katco: I don't really have a good experience with matrix outside of their browser client/android app (the linux desktop client requires as much resources as a web browser, so there's not much point to it in my opinion) I'd prefer keeping our channel on an IRC server; matrix allows their users to bridge to it
<civodul>apteryx: could be forgotten mappings, you'd have to hunt for debugging clues (possibly stracing the daemon)
<apteryx>not sure how to do that while the system boots
<apteryx>it only hangs *at boot*
<katco>apteryx: there are many native clients outside of element (the element "desktop" client is just the web client repackaged). there are even some CLI clients. have a look here:
<apteryx>yeah, I tried the weechat one in the past (also an Emacs one IIRC, althoug I think it had been abandoned), but they were both buggy at the time.
<terpri>yes, the base protocol is pretty straightforward (probably less so with e2ee, etc., but it's a good-enough starting point)
<jackhill>it will be a difficult decision, I think. We're cursed with many options. There's also XMPP, which is what I prefer, but I don't know what would be best in general
<terpri>not quite as simple as IRC ;), but not massively overcomplicated either, imho
<davexunit>matrix has *horrible* UX
<terpri>(i do like IRC, maybe just for sentimental reasons, and bridging is an option -- not sure if there's a good xmpp<->irc bridge, but matrix<->irc seems to work pretty well)
<davexunit>I tried all the clients packaged in guix and the official element client on android and they were all very immature
<davexunit>the android client will just not tell me about new dms most of the time.
<civodul>mbakke: i pushed a guile-ssh fixes on core-updates so it should start building again!
<terpri>i wonder if that's a limitation of android (istr android is pretty hostile to having apps running persistently in the background, and one is expected to use google services for push notifications iirc -- i could have the details wrong though)
<rekado>jackhill: I also like XMPP. Has lots of clients, too.
<apteryx>the status quo (which is not a bad one, as it's been working rather well!) will be, if we decide to switch
<davexunit>irc or bust
<taylan>XMPP clients are all not very nice sadly. then again if you don't need fancy features like posting pictures then most are OK I guess.
<taylan>terpri: an application can register as a background service of sorts to constantly do work, this will make the app's icon appear in the status bar permanently to make the user aware
<terpri>i've had a lot of problems with using non-basic features on xmpp clients, like functioning OMEMO encryption
<terpri>i do like xmpp nonetheless
<taylan>the XMPP client Xabber is the best one on Android I could find and it does just that
<terpri>after all, we might not have jitsi without xmpp :p
<rekado>IRC is such a drag
<rekado>I’d be happy if we moved away from it to something that’s less arcane for newcomers (and eternal noobs like myself).
<mbakke>civodul: wooo, thanks! \o/
<apteryx>civodul: doesn't seem to be a mapping, unless defining a file-system-mapping with target and source to "/" is not valid :-)
<drakonis>aight people
<drakonis>time to jump ship to liberachat because freenode has fallen
<rekado>I know that former freenode admins have quit, but why should *users* move to a new network?
<apteryx>rekado: it seems the legal entity (associated to PIA) to which was sold the freenode domain name a couple years ago and promised not interfering with how freenode is managed has broken that promises, and is undergoing a hostile takeover
<drakonis>because the new owners are terrible
<rekado>yeah, but … do I need to care?
<bandali>and there's some context floating around in the resignation letters like (and ones linked from it)
<rekado>like, does it make IRC any worse than it already is?
<rekado>(wrt privacy etc)
<katco>i used to be all-in on irc, but i came to find that all the modern conveniences are very, very, nice. stuff like formatted code blocks, video chat a click away, e2ee, etc.
<apteryx>rekado: it comes down to a trust issue
<apteryx>there's not much you share with freenode, but they at least have your freenode nickname/password
<katco>like i don't have to use a pastebin to post code snippets. it'll show up as a collapsible, scrollable, formatted, code area (depending on clients)
<rekado>(I still don’t *like* to use anything else, because I just really don’t enjoy using a browser for chat)
<apteryx>if you registered your nickname
<katco>rekado: most protocols have native clients
<rekado>I find it rather unlikely that … the new owners do something nefarious with my nickname.
<qyliss>well they might just be very incompetent IRC server operators
<qyliss>we have no reason to believe they won't be
<apteryx>well, it was equally likely to boot the current admins who's volunteered for years I guess. Who knows!
<tissevert>katco: do you have a particular tool in mind with these features ?
<stikonas>at the moment they haven't even restored ChanServ
<katco>tissevert: i use matrix with extensively (as i type this). but that doesn't address concerns people have with non web-clients. there are many native clients here though it's just not a concern for me
<katco>(although i do dearly miss erc)
<tissevert>apteryx: it's also been pointed out to me that they have all timestamped logs of channels
<rekado>(I use ERC but really wouldn’t mind another client. As long as it’s Emacs.)
<pushcx>They've already started using the website to cross-promote their cryptocurrency company, and they'll have all user emails in a few minutes.
<tissevert>ahh matrix, so many people mention it to me
<katco>oh jees
<rekado>tissevert: oh, good. Nice to have a backup ;)
<tissevert>I should prolly give it a try
<rekado>pushcx: is this a good reason for communities to move to another network?
<tissevert>well yeah, depends who owns the backup I guess ^^' ?
<avalenn>"Contrary to public and private statements, the sale included the network as a whole, something christel should not have had the ability to relinquish, as most of the infrastructure is not owned by her or any of us» This is the part I don't understand. How can someone take over the whole network.
<pushcx>rekado: Yeah, I'm sticking with the familiar staff. An IRC network is people, not a domain name. #lobsters (~550 people) is moving now.
<apteryx>the sale dates back to
<apteryx> ;
<drakonis>this is highly fucked up holy shit
<apteryx>the person who sold went on for a full time job at PIA, at that time.
<katco>as a selling point for matrix: wherever guix ends up, if it's not matrix, i will just bridge the thing to matrix and go on using matrix.
<tissevert>selling point for you isn't it ? ; )
<rekado>I don’t get this freenode story. Maybe I need a dramatized version; a movie or a novel or something. Maybe my capacity to be motivated has been exhausted.
*rekado leaves the discussion to y’all
<katco>well i would think for anyone! it speaks to a kind of durability. the world may change around me, but i choose when my tools change :)
<tissevert>now that's a good point
<tissevert>ok, our server already has a matrix service
<tissevert>(btw do we havea guix package for matrix / synapse ?)
<avalenn>I mostly use Matrix as a big bloated resource-hungry slow IRC client. But it also allows me to also communicate with some which wiil never touch IRC.
<tissevert>any particular client you'd recommend for a total noob ? : )
<katco> but i don't mind the web client because it is my only web client
<tissevert>thank you !
<katco>having said that, i'll be happy when something like fractal matures
<katco>this is the irc room bridged on matrix:
<drakonis>you can access matrix through weechat
<drakonis>mind you
<katco>this is the matrix-only room:
<tissevert>hmmm wait how can the client propose to create an account on the server that runs on my server ? Oo
<nckx>Morning #guix!
<tissevert>hullo nckx
<nckx>Oh wow, Freenode really fell and #freenode is unmoderated. Madness.
<katco>heya nckx
<tissevert>ow I see we don't have a guix package for element : (
<tissevert>it would seem registration is enabled on our server : S
<avalenn>element is an electron-packaged web app, I think there were problems in the past with packaging those, isn't it ?
<tissevert>oh : (
<tissevert>why do so many people use electron to build stuff ?
<katco>i just keep a pinned tab open
<terpri>tissevert, laziness?
<katco>tissevert: because a lot of people know how to build guis with web technologies, and it's an easy way to create a x-platform app
<avalenn>because so many people develop webapps
<stikonas>probably packaging neochat for matrix would be easier than electron app...
<terpri>ah, a kde matrix client
<terpri>one of my innumerable side projects is a CLIM matrix client :)
<avalenn>some other clients on
<drakonis>you can use weechat as well
<tissevert>yes I've seen that
<tissevert>well in anycase that means I wouldn't be entirely lost if we were to move to matrix
<dongcarl>Hi all, had some trouble pulling from 1.2.0 to 1.3.0, wanted to check if this is known before I post on ML:
<dongcarl>(Also, if I should indeed post to ML, let me know what additional files I should attach to aid in debugging)
<rekado>I ran “guix pull” just now and couldn’t reproduce.
<rekado>haven’t pulled 1.3.0 directly
<apteryx>dongcarl: are you attempting without substitutes? I have a built output corresponding to the failed derivation in your log
<the-catster2>I have been trying to get WebGL to work in Icecat for quite some time now and can't figure it out. I have it enabled in settings, and it works on ungoogled-chromium and Nyxt, but not on Firefox. I have mesa and drivers installed. What could be a culprit?
*dongcarl back
<dongcarl>apteryx: Yes I think it's building locally, however, that shouldn't affect the derivation computation, should it?
<roptat>dongcarl, maybe you can share the log file associated with /gnu/store/yjvc00hxrh88k9y5dna023pnnf4pznk2-guile-git-0.5.1.drv
<drakonis>so, what should we do now
<dongcarl>roptat: Okay, I will try to build that derivation specifically, and see if I get a log I can share!
<apteryx>dongcarl: that'd be useful, as I can't reproduce locally with guix build /gnu/store/yjvc00hxrh88k9y5dna023pnnf4pznk2-guile-git-0.5.1.drv --check
<apteryx>(it builds fine)
<dongcarl>apteryx: !! Mine too!
<dongcarl>So it must be something to do with the derivation being evaluated when `guix pull` is invoked?
<dongcarl>Strange bug...
<dongcarl>> successfully built /gnu/store/yjvc00hxrh88k9y5dna023pnnf4pznk2-guile-git-0.5.1.drv
<apteryx>retrying fails again?
<dongcarl>Let me retry the pull... Seems like a corner-case bug, but I want to make sure we don't lose track of it
<apteryx>strange, when booting my operating system definition with the 'guix system vm' script, 'herd status' says "error: connect: /var/run/shepherd/socket: No such file or directory"
<zimoun>«guix import cran -a bioconductor Seurat» returns «X.509 certificate of '' could not be verified» with cc07534. Do I miss something?
<apteryx>works here
<apteryx>check you system date, or reconfigure to get fresh certs?
<apteryx>OK, 'guix system vm' returned a working shepherd using bare-bone.tmpl
<zimoun>apteryx: thanks, indeed the package nss-certs was missing. Why do I need to add it as a regular user? I was expecting a all-included Guix command line
<apteryx>you mean, why isn't it included in the base packages?
<zimoun>yeah or installed transparently?
<zimoun>I mean “guix pull” should come with nss-certs somehow.
<nckx>I thought it didn't, but explicitly used only the LE cert we actually use.
<nckx>That was a patch, I don't remember what got merged :)
<nckx>So it wouldn't work for $the_internet.
<apteryx>IIUC, guix on foreign distributions will use the distributions certs. GnuTLS is hard-coded to look unter /etc/ssl/certs, which must be what Guile ends up using for https?
<apteryx>the Guile Reference manual says "Guile dynamically loads GnuTLS for HTTPS support"
<zimoun>I see, indeed, /etc/ssl/certs does not have the certificate on this foreign distro. “guix install nss-certs” fixes it. Somehow, does it make to have the expected certificates at ~/.config/guix/current/etc/ssl/certs? nckx, is it the pathc you are talking about?
<apteryx>not sure how that could fix it for GnuTLS. It's configured with the "--with-default-trust-store-dir=/etc/ssl/certs" option in Guix.
<apteryx>I know other tools such as OpenSSL can make use of the SSL_CERT_* environment variables to find the certs
<apteryx>but not GnuTLS
<apteryx>so it'll work with curl (which uses openssl) for instance, but not wget (which uses gnutls)
<nckx>zimoun: No, that sounds like regular certificates working regularly. Which is good.
<apteryx>FWIW, I had opend this issue to make gnutls as flexible as openssl in this regard:
<zimoun>apteryx, thanks. Weird, well I miss a point. “guix import cran -a bioconductor” fails then “guix install nss-certs” fixes it. Does it mean the Bioconductor importer uses OpenSSL?
<roptat>if you missed it, I secretly pushed guile-netlink to guix yesterday evening, hopefully I can find some time and motivation to work on a new static-networking-service definition
<roptat>the real difficulty is that guile-netlink can only work on Linux, not on the Hurd, so we need to either have a separate service, or some logic to switch between implementations
<apteryx>roptat: that's really cool!
<apteryx>(about guile-netlink, not the fact that it's missing on the Hurd :-))
<roptat>netlink is a protocol that was implemented only by Linux iiuc (but maybe the Hurd has some implementation for it, that would be great)
<nckx>roptat: Thank you!
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<zzappie>did people already made joke about great wildebeast migration?
<roptat>you're the first one I think :D
<pineapples>Does anyone else here use audit-service-type? The daemon doesn't want to read my audit.rules file
<apteryx>zimoun: Perhaps it uses git? Which does use openssl and honors SSL* variables
<apteryx>ah, about herd status complaining about a missing socket file, this can happen when starting very slow starting services
<apteryx>such as NFS or the the childhurd VM
<zimoun>apteryx, the backtrace says tls-wrap from guix/build/download.scm; but it could be misleading because of error handling. What does ’download-to-store’ i.e., ’url-fetch’ use?
<apteryx>tls-wrap looks like some ad-hoc solution to address GnuTLS hard-coded path problem. It honors certs found in either GUIX_TLS_CERTIFICATE_DIRECTORY, SSL_CERT_DIR or /etc/ssl/certs.
<apteryx>that explains why install nss-certs works
<zimoun>thanks for explaining. So why not have ~/.config/guix/current/etc/ssl/ filled by “guix pull“ and some variables set accordingly? Then everything would work out-of-the-box, isn’t it?
<rekado>someone would need to take care of letting the logging bot join the channels on
<nckx>rekado: It can't do that itself?
<rekado>it’s just znc.
<rekado>someone has to tell it what to do.
<nckx>Where would they do that? bayfront?
<apteryx>zimoun: IIUC, the idea here is to have guix pull able to fetch what it needs from from HTTPS, not necessarily configuring certs for the whole internet
<nckx>rekado: How would I restart znc after killing it to edit znc.conf? There doesn't seem to be a znc service yet.
*nckx 🎓 🎣
<apteryx>zimoun: civodul can probably explain the rational better having authored it :-)
<roptat>nckx, run znc as the user that needs to run it
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<zimoun>from my understanding, “guix pull” should provide all other Guix commands need. As “guix import” to name one. :-)
<nckx>roptat: I su'd to rekado, felt dirty, worked. :-/
<nckx>Fragile bot.
<nckx>Hm, I wonder how it will handle duplicate channels names.
<apteryx>zimoun: that's not really the case currently; many parts of guix are 'optional'; one recent example is the go importer, which autoloads the guile-lib library. If your system doesn't have a recent guile-lib library, it'll won't be unusable.
<apteryx>won't be usable*
<zimoun>apteryx: I am not sure to understand. guile-lib is a dependency listed in guix/self.scm, so “guix pull” automatically update it, well update the one Guix needs. Am I wrong?
<apteryx>sorry, I've not studied know how (guix self) works yet.
<apteryx>I know it splits the problem of building guix into smaller parts, but that's about it
<apteryx>but you are right that it seems to build the parts with all optional requirements in
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<zimoun>I do not know either. :-)
<zimoun>Well, I do not know what “guix gc --requisites $(readlink -f ~/.config/guix/current) lists.
<zimoun> And for instance using --references, you get /gnu/store/j3g8krwvz530r0jdnq1r8i95ha3wxzma-guix-f8acd1aee then again on this, /gnu/store/a2ipch77lwgxbhyrv3iyjwf3nq4xv8li-guix-command and again on this, /gnu/store/a6b1s696w04gdvlffjk7mvv94sdfsbwq-guix-module-union and again on this, you finally get /gnu/store/0by44hplsmf03g28m2sdz72y85n3p4hn-guile-lib-0.2.7. (Maybe there is a way to do in one go, but I do know it ;-))
<apteryx>perhaps -R? guix gc -R $(readlink -f ~/.config/guix/current) | grep guile-lib has a match
<apteryx>ah, that's the same
<zimoun>ahah! Yes, thanks :-)
<zimoun>maybe one day, I will RTFM ;-)
<apteryx>it's better to do it today, it's already a lengthy read ;-)
<zimoun>hehe! I did on 2018 cover to cover and it was a very looong travel by train :-) Though I am always confused by the nomenclature guix gc -h provides.
<apteryx>interesting, a mistake such as: #:start (make-forkexec-constructor (list (file-append "/gnu/store/87kif0bpf0anwbsaw0jvg8fyciw4sz67-bash-5.0.16" "/bin/bash") causes shepherd to hang
<zimoun>somehow, my question, probably for civodul, is: why is nss-certs not appearing there? Is a rationale behind? :-)
<apteryx>the mistake is the unexpanded (file-append ...)
<zimoun>apteryx: thanks for the explanations. I have to go. Cheers.
<apteryx>see you!
<jackhill>wooo, I've sucessfully bootsrapped the core-updates rust on x86_64-linux. Now to remember what I was doing before all the building started :)
<civodul>nss-certs appearing in (guix self)? the rationale would be that it's up to users to choose their X.509 certificates
<civodul>jackhill: heh, i know that feeling :-)
<apteryx>sneek later tell zimoun nss-certs appearing in (guix self)? the rationale would be that it's up to users to choose their X.509 certificates (answered from civodul)
<apteryx>sneek: ?
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<apteryx>sneek: botsnack
<apteryx>sneek: later tell zimoun nss-certs appearing in (guix self)? the rationale would be that it's up to users to choose their X.509 certificates (answered from civodul)
<sneek>Will do.
<raghavgururajan>leoprikler: Anything else with the v2?
<nckx>civodul: Has there been any discussion on how (and where) to proceed with #guix? Adding multi-network support to Goggles just for these few days is a chore.
<nckx>Oh, I forgot about the humans, they might also appreciate knowing where the hell to go.
<nckx>I think we should migrate.
<nckx>Never thought I'd say that before today.
<civodul>i don't know
<civodul>the situation is messy
<civodul>my IRC client is just as confused as i am it seems
<nckx>It's a mess.
<civodul>so... at first sight, it seems that moving is a good idea
<bandali>civodul, hey, yeah sorry erc doesn't handle channels with the same name on two different networks well
<civodul>bandali: ah, thanks for confirming :-)
<bandali>:-) cheers. i'm hoping to fix it one day
<nckx>Messy, less so, there's no real split as is common in such situations. Everyone just... left. #freenode is opless. It's bizarre.
<civodul>yeah, so i'm happy to defer a decision to you
<civodul>i don't know enough about the situation
<civodul>i mean, i read statements pasted on and all, but i don't know the folks supposedly behind it
<civodul>but yeah, if freenode ops actually left, that's already a good sign that we'll have to do something
<pushcx>Speaking of statements - has a list of big channels that will be staying with Libera.Chat.
<rekado>‘staying’ is an interesting term for an activity that feels a lot like moving.
<pushcx>I've been here almost 25 years. The network is the people, not the domain.
<bandali>'staying' with the people who basically did all to run the network, that is :-)
<rekado>nah, I get it
<rekado>it’s just that so far ‘staying’ has never had such an active connotation.
<rekado>’staying in bed’ never required moving house ;)
<pushcx>It does when someone with a lot of legal weaponry starts squatting in your house.
<rekado>(does my house become a palace when a prince squats there?)
<nckx>I don't pretend to have privileged information. But if every staffer I've ever interacted with has left Freenode, I trust them to the extent that whatever remains is not going to be good.
<nckx>So, yeah, I'm going to prepare a ‘move’.
<rekado>same, I’m just cranky is all :)
<civodul>rekado: i sympathize :-)
<civodul>"staying in bed" sounds like an option until this sorts itself out ;-)
<jonsger>rekado: hm, I think thats the concept of caravans :) or night-trains ^^
<rekado>I miss the concept of affordable night trains.
<pushcx>If you need a hand, I can intro you to kline. He helped us get #lobsters set back up. Mostly it was just sorting out who got the 'founder' bit with chanserv. Then I set the old channel to +m with an updated topic and repeating message to tell people to update. Not too bad.
<leoprikler>raghavgururajan: I haven't looked at it too closely, please leave ample time also for others to review it
<katco>i was discussing this elsewhere; i know there are other concerns when considering a protocol, but moving to a protocol which is resilient against these kinds of events would be nice. i.e. no one having to move where they read guix chat in the event that a server becomes untenable
<vagrantc>katco: i missed some context ... is this regarding concerns about freenode?
<katco>oops, yes, sorry
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<roptat>welcome, bayfront-log :)
<nckx>That was the easy part. goggles.scm was written for Freenode and doesn't support multiple networks. Hm.
<nckx>Their Freenode emulation is accurate.
<stikonas>maybe somebody can set up bayfront-log for #bootstrappable too?
<stikonas>I think guix maintains it
<nckx>stikonas: Somebody already has? Strange.
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<roptat>stikonas, (freenode)
<stikonas>yes, that's freenode...
<stikonas>I mean here...
<nckx>stikonas: I don't know why it won't /join #bootstrappable.
<stikonas>hmm, maybe siraben set some channel flags...
<stikonas>nckx: is bayfront-log registered user?
<stikonas>I think #bootstrappable was set with "r" and "z" modes (registered users, and sasl)
<nckx>stikonas: That's probably it. #bootstrappable on Freenode is +cnt.
<nckx>I'm not going to register bayfront-log.
<stikonas>I'll ask siraben to remove "r"
<stikonas>at least when he is back
<nckx>If this network is inoperable without +rz that's a problem.
<stikonas>at least in medium/longer term it will probably be the same as freenode in terms of spam
<stikonas>not sure about short term
<taylan>civodul: FYI you're channel founder now.
<taylan>and nckx, apteryx, and rekado have all the other rights. (lfam isn't here yet.)
<civodul>taylan: cool, thanks!
<nckx>taylan: Ta!
<civodul>ERC seems to be confused with these two #guix channels
<civodul>it fails to complete nicknames
<civodul>hmm it won't even show me the other one
*civodul tries to go back there
<rekado>I’m also confused by how ERC handles this.
<rekado>(am I seeing *both* in the same buffer…?)
<bandali>as the erc maintainer, i should say not very well :-p
<bandali>and yeah i've seen that happen :-)
<bandali>hoping to eventually improve/fix that, but it's kinda hard to fix in a backward-compatible way
<taylan>I'm usually on MS Windows these days and just use Hexchat (shameful, I know) but on Emacs I love Circe as an IRC client
<taylan>strangely in my Debian VM it has an issue connecting to networks and I didn't have time to debug it
*nckx covers their HexChat's ears.
<nckx>It handles this better than ERC :)
<nckx>Just have to remember which #guix is which.
<taylan>it is a pretty neat client to be honest, especially for a silly *GUI* application! :P
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<drakonis>are we moving guile too?
<nckx>drakonis: Different we. Ask them :)
<nckx>Hm, actually, I hope so, since hosts their logs and can't currently handle multiple networks...
<nckx>It's currently logging this #guile.
<nckx>* logging both, but only one is visible.
<drakonis>i see
<roptat>so we officially migrated here?
<roptat>then we should update the website :)
<nckx>roptat: I already did.
<nckx>It should render soon.
<nckx>leoprikler: ?
<leoprikler>connection statistics at the time, now it's 33 (here) to 327 (still on Freenode)
<leoprikler>326 :)
<nckx>Ah :)
<leoprikler>We have approximately 10% early adopters, it seems
<leoprikler>Both here and in #guile
<drakonis>cool beans
<nckx>I've set an obnoxious ENTRYMSG.
<nckx>Bold and emojos.
*vagrantc waves