<LibreCat>is freenode acually a free software server <apteryx>kmicu: the kernel's btrfs wiki suggests that there is a global reserve designed to handle deleting files after the file system got filled up. Perhaps file a bug if you can easily trigger bugs with that by using Guix on a full btrfs file system :-) <PotentialUser-86>I'm having some issues on first startup after install. Is this a good place to get help with that? <apteryx>the guix-help mailing list is a fin place too ***atw is now known as Guest65814
<chkno>Hi. I'm new to guix. What's the polite but non-intrusive way to say "Ow, this bug hurts." in the issue tracker? (Like other bug trackers have star counts, thumbs-buttons, +affectsmetoo links, cc lists, subscriber counts, etc.) <PotentialUser-86>I'm seeing that my messages didn't get logged... Is it safe to assume no one else saw them? *raghavgururajan + zopiclone = zzZ <leoprikler>pkill9: webkit is pretty heavy, but still light compared to firefox/chromium, wherein you can't even really decouple the rendering engine ***str1ngs_ is now known as str1ngs
<str1ngs>leoprikler: littlen know fact you can decouple chromium. using chrome embedded framework <str1ngs>leoprikler: I've gone down the rabbit hole of embedded browsing writing nomad lol <NieDzejkob>chkno: out of curiosity, what is the bug in question? <str1ngs>leoprikler: right now webkitgtk is the reference implementation. It is designed though to use other platforms like QtWebengine and even ncurses eventually. <str1ngs>leoprikler: also now it's 99.9% guile. hardly any C <leoprikler>That's certainly an interesting idea, but do you get a benefit out of writing this pseudo-universal web engine wrapper? <str1ngs>leoprikler: here is proof of concept of using QtWebengine with guile. <str1ngs>leoprikler: the benefit is users can pick what platform they want. ie ncurses or maybe the prefer QtWebengine <leoprikler>okay, so I can get that you may want something ncurses-based if you really like terminals, but you're still essentially writing three (admittedly quite similar) browsers for three different platforms, where users may have certain requirements w.r.t. look and feel, how data is stored, etc. <leoprikler>for instance, some would expect GTK apps to store preferences using GSettings and have those nice fancy headerbars <leoprikler>can you still share a lot of code if you consider, that you want matching front and backends? <str1ngs>leoprikler: I'm preferences are done in scheme. nomad is heavily modelled after emacs. <str1ngs>leoprikler: you can try it with. guix environment --ad-hoc nomad -- naomd. you'd almost swear you were using emacs :) <leoprikler>I did try it out a few times already, but I find that the things I like about Emacs don't translate that well to web browsing. <str1ngs>did you try it recently the new release has about 400+ commits <leoprikler>Granted, I do wish that Emacs had more control over widgets too <str1ngs>ie try M-x: terminal in the new release :) <leoprikler>for reference, 0.2.0-alpha is the newest one, right? <str1ngs>thanks to some users I have some bug fixes in a coming point release. <str1ngs>we went over that. at least emacs does not support that quite yet. I can though look into it if it's important <str1ngs>keyboard-escape-quit may not effect nomad as much. none of the interactive commands are that interactive. C-g or keyboard-quit is enough. <str1ngs>leoprikler: you can for now add (define-key global-map (kbd "ESC ESC ESC") 'keyboard-quit) to ~/.nomad.d <str1ngs>though it acts like 'keyboard-quit of course <str1ngs>I'd have to find the catch for 'quit-command for more specifics <leoprikler>I also find it quite jarring, that there's no start page as in normal Emacs and C-h h gives no help <str1ngs>leoprikler: 'quit-command pretty much just exits the minibufffer goes back to the last-buffer doses some history clean up <leoprikler>it has the look of emacs, but the feel is still quite missing šļø <str1ngs>leoprikler: C-h h quite yet. there is some work on it. but not enough to be usable. I'm going to settle for a mini keybind primer start paage. <brettgilio>Bumping my last question, is it possible to suppress hints in guix? <leoprikler>there is a verbosity parameter, but I don't know if hints use it <leoprikler>also I would assume you want to disable a specific hint and not all of them, right? <str1ngs>leoprikler: thanks for the feed back. I'll add somethings to my TODO list :) <leoprikler>btw. I assume emacsy does not have dired, does it? <str1ngs>leoprikler: not yet, but it does have find-file <leoprikler>yeah, but find-file is pretty weak without dired or completion <str1ngs>leoprikler: M-x: ibuffer is the first real buffer interface to get an idea of what a textual buffer interface might look like. ***catonano_ is now known as catonano
<str1ngs>most editing and extras are on the back burner. my core focus on browsing. text-buffers are severally limited right now. mainly only there for *scratch* and *Messages* <str1ngs>leoprikler: and ibuffer has lots of bugs :) <leoprikler>also regarding scratch buffers, I can't even get to them <str1ngs>does M-x switch-to-buffer *sc<TAB> work? <str1ngs>you can hit enter on on the scratch buffer in ibuffer as well <str1ngs>I don't use C-x <left> but you can try adding it to ~/.nomad bound to 'previous-buffer etc. <str1ngs>M-x: switch-to-buffer <RET> *scratch* should work <str1ngs>ibuffer is buggy. it has an out of order issue. and I need to thing more on how I want it to work <leoprikler>yeah, just wanted you to know that that was one of the bugs <str1ngs>leoprikler: generally though when you hit <RET> it will just goto the wrong buffer. does that sound right? <str1ngs>leoprikler: I appreciate the feedback :) <leoprikler>Given that I haven't spawned any buffers of my own yet, I can't really be sure what exactly happens <str1ngs>right. load-uri and query are useful for that :) <leoprikler>I think it might just be returning to the last buffer regardless of the line <leoprikler>does emacsy have a texinfo browser? it sure would help if i could C-h i m Nomad <str1ngs>we have some partial work done on document introspection. both in emacsy and nomad. <str1ngs>info nomad should work for you atleast leoprikler ? <leoprikler>or at least I'm too lazy to form the correct one <str1ngs>understandable. you are not missing much! lol <str1ngs>half the keybinding need updating. it needs much more then what is there currently <leoprikler>I accidentally created an infinite loop by killing scratch once <str1ngs>yes that's design flaw in emacsy. probably you killed *Messages* <str1ngs>emacsy uses an agenda thing that races when you kill *messages* probably because messages is gone. <leoprikler>stupid question, but can't you just respawn it on demand? <str1ngs>leoprikler: that's one solution. actually that might be a quick fix. <leoprikler>I think you might want to use a singleton-pattern like approach for internal buffers <leoprikler>where whenever a command is about to access a buffer it first checks whether it exists and then uses that buffer <str1ngs>leoprikler: I'm at the mercy of emacsy in some regrades it really helpful but there is somethings need work. <leoprikler>don't you work on emacsy as well? or just nomad? <str1ngs>leoprikler: if you can pinpoint the bug more I can look into it I can push commits to emacsy <str1ngs>I work on emacsy, but I don't make design changes unless I absolutely have to. bug fixes are fine as long is it does not change design. <str1ngs>if I make changes I run them by janneke though just for the extra review. <str1ngs>I added this to my TODO list so that should speed up when it gets fixed :) <str1ngs>previously I had to disable *scratch* and *Messages* it was not usable at all. so there has been alot of progress. <str1ngs>and to be fair to emacsy it's been way more helpful despite some minor bugs here and there. <leoprikler>Well, it really just shows that the projects are still in their infancy. I do think those flaws will get ironed out at some point, but now I'd rather go to bed. <str1ngs>leoprikler: goodnight. thanks for the feedback. It's appreciated. <samplet>str1ngs: Iām still interested in trying Nomad, but it is telling me that it canāt find the Typelib file for āGtkSourceā. <sneek>samplet, you have 1 message! <sneek>samplet, str1ngs says: thanks for letting me know will look into it. <samplet>Not sure if I mentioned that before.... <str1ngs>samplet: hello, I still can't replicate that problem. gtksource view should be propergated <str1ngs>samplet: assuming you did guix install. ~/.guix-profile/lib/girepository-1.0/GtkSource-4.typelib should exsist <str1ngs>samplet: what does echo $GI_TYPELIB_PATH output? <samplet>str1ngs: Itās there. Checking the environment variable.... <samplet>str1ngs: It doesnāt include my profile. Is that weird? <samplet>I wonder how thatās possible. It seems wrong. <samplet>Running āguix package --search-pathsā gives the right answer. <str1ngs>samplet: try this GI_TYPELIB_PATH=~/.guix-profile/lib/girepository-1.0/ nomad <samplet>Well, one quick āeval $(guix package --search-paths)ā later and weāre up and running! :) <str1ngs>nice, wondering what changed GI_TYPELIB_PATH= <str1ngs>btw propagation for this is not ideal. it's a known short coming. but I intentionally did this due to some shortcoming on Guix with GI. <samplet>Something might be off on my end. The package is likely right. <str1ngs>later nomad will install typelib into its own profile for you :) <str1ngs>I plan to use guix to manage nomad extentions <samplet>Is the best way to start skimming the manual? <str1ngs>info nomad. the manually is really lacking apologize <samplet>That works. Is there a keybinding for load-uri? <str1ngs>also M-x: query is handy. buy the way I have some bug fixes queued so I'll probably do a pointer release soon. ***lle-bout_ is now known as lle-bout
<samplet>str1ngs: Itās very neat! I canāt seem to switch buffers from the buffer list, though. <samplet>Using M-x switch-to-buffer works, though. <str1ngs>samplet: M-x ibuffer is not working at all? <samplet>str1ngs: It works, but if I highlight a different buffer and press return it does not change buffers (the buffer menu closes and I return to my original buffer). <str1ngs>samplet: this is a known issue. if it wrong buffer. just open it again . C-x b and go down to the buffer with n. then hit enter. <str1ngs>samplet: I literally wrote ibuffer in like 30min. and I'm debating if I should write it wit GTK widgets or not. <samplet>str1ngs: Ah okay. It works with n and p but not arrows. <str1ngs>samplet: that's good to know. I only use emacs style bindings. it's why I wrote nomad to begin with haha <samplet>Which brings me to my next question: why C-x b for the buffer menu? In Emacs its C-x C-b and C-x b is for switching buffers. <str1ngs>samplet: you can change this in ~/.nomad with (define-key global-map (kbd "C-x b") 'switch-to-buffer) <str1ngs>samplet: I will change it to emacs defaults at one point. at one time switch-to-buffer completion was not usable. <str1ngs>samplet: make usre you have (use-modules (emacys emacsy)) at the top of your ~/.nomad <str1ngs>samplet: I originally starting writing (nomad bookmarks) in ~/.nomad that how extensible it is. haha <samplet>str1ngs: Awesome. Out of curiosity, what is GtkSource used for? <str1ngs>samplet: try this for example. M-x: (pretty-string bookmarks) <str1ngs>samplet it has scheme syntax highlighting. in the echo area and text buffers. <samplet>There it is! I opened a Scheme file and it looks great. Trying terminal... <samplet>Sadly it doesnāt seem to work. It says āterminal (Shell)ā at the bottom and the background is black, but there is not prompt and I canāt type anything. <str1ngs>samplet: strange, let me see if I can replicate that. <str1ngs>samplet : is there an error's in the *Messages* buffer? <str1ngs>no to bad, finding many bugs with nomad! <samplet>str1ngs: No messages beyond āSTARTUPā and āACTIVATEā. <brettgilio>Just wanted to quickly remark how much I love cherry picking packages from inferiors, and using the time-machine for development environments. I keep my system guix back a few weeks, I keep my kernel pinned back several dozen revisions, all in all my system is staler than an Italian crouton except in places where I want it fresher, and thats exactly how I like it <str1ngs>samplet: anything in the terminal where you started nomad? <str1ngs>brettgilio: time machine sound intresting. <brettgilio>str1ngs: I haven't ran guix pull in weeks. It's wonderful <samplet>str1ngs: Nothing shows up when I try to run āterminalā. <str1ngs>samplet: it might be fixed on the decide-policy branch. you could try clone nomad checking out decide-policy and doing . guix environment nomad; ./configure; make run <str1ngs>samplet: it's a bit of manual work though. <str1ngs>samplet: does /bin/bash exist on your system? <samplet>Bash, which lives in /gnu/store/... :) <str1ngs>samplet: in ~/.nomad add (set! %default-shell "/path/to/shell") ***rEnr3n4 is now known as rEnr3n
<str1ngs>I need to add a file-exists? thanks for finding this :) <samplet>str1ngs: That does the trick. What about using ā$SHELLā? <str1ngs>samplet: environment variables have drawbacks with how GTK works. <str1ngs>samplet: if you use (set! %default-shell (getenv "SHELL")) if you want. <samplet>str1ngs: I had just finished putting that in ā~/.nomadā. :) <str1ngs>though keep in mind if it's not set that returns false <str1ngs>I should parameterize %default-shell. so then you can do (parameterize ((%default-shell "/bin/zsh")) (make-buffer <terminal> #:name "zsh")) <str1ngs>and in ~/.nomad you can just do (%default-shell "/bin/zsh") <apteryx>brettgilio: I'd like to know your IP so that I can try exploits ;-) <pkill9>I ssh'd into that IP and am rm -rf /'ing <pkill9>surprisingly easy to break into your system <lfam>What is brettgilio's password, pkill9? <lfam>Were you able to guess it? <peanutbutterandc>Does anyone here know how I might see the definition of a (dynamically generated) procedure from guile repl? <pkill9>yes, it happened to be the same as my password <lfam>Funny, that's my password too <brettgilio>Oddly enough that's the password pass generated for me <lfam>peanutbutterandc: Sorry we are making jokes instead of answering your question. You will get an answer eventually but I don't think anyone that knows the answer is reading right now <lfam>That must be the Intel RDRAND built-in random generator. I heard it was not trustworthy <peanutbutterandc>lfam, it's all right. It's fun to watch a bunch of experts goofing off like this. lol <brettgilio>peanutbutterandc: "experts". Finally, my dad will be proud of me <brettgilio>I'm such an expert you all should follow me on mastodon <brettgilio>peanutbutterandc: my dad Is a programmer, and occasionally I tell him what I do in my research and with Gnu and he just goes "oh. IDK what any of that means" haha <brettgilio>peanutbutterandc: he asked me what my email was once, and I told him my gnu.org one and he said "not. Not your work email" lel <lfam>I'm curious what sort of stuff has your dad worked on, brettgilio <lfam>I'm always curious what the previous generations of programmers did at work <brettgilio>lfam: he works for Oracle on their Financial suite <peanutbutterandc>brettgilio, That is strange. I always thought the older generation loved everything free software. Because of the freedom they enjoyed pre-80s. <brettgilio>He couldn't care less about freedom mate. He owns every smart device and IoT one can think of <lfam>Sounds like an interesting career! <GNUtoo>guix pull && guix package -u # <- This gets me the lastest git, right? <peanutbutterandc>GNUtoo, guix pull updates your guix to the latest git one, yes. guix package -u upgrades all the packages to their latest versions as defined in the latest git <GNUtoo>error: android-liblog: unbound variable <GNUtoo>This is supposed to work with git latest git *GNUtoo re-runs guix pull && guix package -u <GNUtoo>guix pull: error: Unbound variable: ~S <GNUtoo>There is probably an error in my code somewhere <brettgilio>If anybody wants to see what a real gnu hacker looks like <GNUtoo>hmmm, /me guesses that there are many different profiles of GNU hackers <GNUtoo>hmmm, the unbound varialbe comes from adding ("android-libutils" ,android-libutils) <GNUtoo>Is the git repository stored somewhere? <GNUtoo>I've "(define-public android-libcutils" in gnu/packages/android.scm <GNUtoo>and guix pull && guix package -u returns 0 <GNUtoo>Hmmm it's my installation I think <GNUtoo>guix points to /usr/local/bin instead of .config/guix/current/bin/guix <daviid>who's the old guy next to the gnu hacker on the picture? :):) <montxero>I am running into `` fatal error: linux/limits.h: No such file or directory" <GNUtoo>montxero: that may not be in libc but in the kernel headers <GNUtoo>./nxi4linrsyfpqm85jf95hvc7ymsqdkid-linux-libre-headers-5.4.20/include/linux/limits.h <GNUtoo>libc has limits.h and the linux-libre-headers have linux/limits.h <GNUtoo>btw, I'm new to scheme and in android.scm there is that: <GNUtoo>(define (android-platform-system-core version) <montxero>GNUtoo: Thanks, I am installing linux-libre-headers now <GNUtoo>hmmm, the "version" seem to do something useful <GNUtoo>" while trying to build a package that depends on "(define-public android-platform-system-core" <GNUtoo>ahh maybe that's a required argument.... <GNUtoo> (version (android-platform-version)) <GNUtoo> (source (android-platform-system-core version)) <GNUtoo>so I need to export android-platform-system-core as well <xelxebar>So, I have a codebase with which I'm hacking on the build process. I want to make sure my changes don't materially affect the output. <xelxebar>My thought is to develop on some devel/foo branch and write a guix package that references said branch head in its origin spec. <GNUtoo>Oh, I want to do something similar, though I don't mind if the hash changes <GNUtoo>Basically I want to use Guix to build part of the Android stack for faster development / testing <GNUtoo>I didn't find yet how to have some autorev like which use master as a git commit yet <xelxebar>Will guix build --check re-checkout the upstream repo when I bump the branch head? <GNUtoo>(right now I'm working on understanding how to build the package I'm interesting in as I've still some dependencies to packages and things to export as define-public in android.scm) <lfam>xelxebar: No. Guix will check if /gnu/store contains a directory or file matching the hash in your package's source field <lfam>If it already has that thing, it will not refetch the source <GNUtoo>lfam: can we refer to a branch and not a git hash, and skip hasing the files? <xelxebar>lfam: Oh. Duh. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. <GNUtoo>like origin/master + it would compute all the hash by itself at build time <xelxebar>GNUtoo: Look at the (source ...) field in package definitions... <GNUtoo>I didn't find an example of that so far <GNUtoo>All I found use fixed revision and have some hash of the files that you typically obtain with guix hash . <lfam>I don't think it's possible but not sure <GNUtoo>The only place where it would make sense (the guix package) doesn't seem to have that <GNUtoo>though it mention a update-guix-package.scm <GNUtoo>and not very generic (error "definition of 'guix' package could not be found" <GNUtoo>In the worst case I'll probably hack a python script to do the git ls-rev and get replace the last rev in the file <GNUtoo>*replace with the last rev in the file <bdju>the fzf package is missing the man page <LibreCat>help quick i need to run a compiled tarball but the system says it doesnt exist *GNUtoo doesn't know how to run tarballs *GNUtoo guess that there is some context missing as tarballs are not executable code but might contain some inside <LibreCat>it straight up says that the executable doesnt exist <LibreCat>someone said that guix doesnt have a linker <xelxebar>What's the "right" way to do sed-like file manipulation in a package definition? Just use sed? Or is there a Guile Way of Enlightenment? <GNUtoo>xelxebar: I found that in the Android packages: <GNUtoo> (("BUILD_STATIC_LIBRARY") "BUILD_HOST_STATIC_LIBRARY")) <GNUtoo>(for more background you need to replace BUILD_STATIC_LIBRARY with BUILD_HOST_STATIC_LIBRARY in Android.mk for a technical reason <mothacehe>rekado: I would like to deploy on berlin nodes to allow concurrent jobs (commit 45f9303), would it be ok? <LibreCat>how can i remove xfce from the desktop.scm file <efraim>bdju: I had to update catch2, might need to re-bundle the catch2 header in libfive or see about bumping the package <GNUtoo>LibreCat: why do you want to do that? <LibreCat>to debloat my system because i like gnome more <LibreCat>is it going to generate more files that way <GNUtoo>There are probably more efficient ways to "debloat" your system since here you probably need to fork guix just for that <GNUtoo>There might be ways to "delete" packages in the sources by adding new scm files that does that, but you'd need to maintain it anyway <GNUtoo>I'm a complete newbie to scheme so I don't know if finding all the packages and removing them along with all the dependencies that depend on them is easy or not <GNUtoo>but there may be a way to do it this way too <GNUtoo>If you do it it might be interesting to do performance comparison and see if it really was worth it <GNUtoo>(which I doubt as there are many many more packages than just xfce4 stuff) <GNUtoo>If compiling an scm takes something like 1 seconds, there are really a lot of scm inside guix <LibreCat>well guix already performs closer to a source only distro <kmicu>LibreCat: correct me if Iām wrong but if that desktop.scm is your system config file then you can remove xfcs from it, reconfigure system and garbage collect to remove xfce from gnu store. <LibreCat>gentoo also has gnome 3.34 and it is very close to guix's performance *kmicu appriciates that snippets link to references now. Thank you civodul. <GNUtoo>LibreCat: I meant about compiling the .scm file, loading it is probably about the same amount of time on my system due to some technical issues in my setup <GNUtoo>(I'm using a guix daemon which is built with another guile version that what I used to build a local guix to hack on) *GNUtoo assumed that you were talked about guix source code with desktop.scm like you have linux.scm and whatnot <GNUtoo>For the rest you can simply remove xfce4 as explained before, guix gc can also help keeping the size of /gnu smaller <GNUtoo>I also heard that somebody was working on replacing Yocto with Guix, and since Yocto rootfs sizes were in the hundreads of Megs years ago (I didn't touch it since), we might have more improvements in this area <kmicu>apteryx: I assume thatās one of those experimental features (like quotas or rait56) that do not work in practice, otherwise all those folks on btrfs ml/irc attaching additional drives to make room have no sense. š¤· *GNUtoo would like to be able to produce tiny rootfs + kernel that fits into 4M or 8M with Guix but that's probably still far away <GNUtoo>(In the meantime we have LibreCMC for that) <kmicu>apteryx: ok, after checking it makes sense, that GlobalReserve is exaclty for situations when we need to attach a bigger āboatā to fix a full disk issue, itās not to let us unallocate space in a usual manner. <xelxebar>LibreCat: info guix 'Invoking guix system' <xelxebar>"Build a virtual machine that contains the operating system declared in FILE, and return a script to run that virtual machine (VM)." <xelxebar>LibreCat: Admittedly, that was a snarky answer, but the info docs are really good :) <LibreCat>i am happy that you know its bad to say "Read the MANUAL!!!!" <LibreCat>removing xfce does give a performance boost <LibreCat>i am starting to think that my pc is dying <rekado>mothacehe: no objections to reconfiguring ci.guix.gnu.org; just try not to reboot it without confirming that /store contains the latest kernel and initrd <rekado>(otherwise we wonāt be able to easily boot it) <GNUtoo>hmmm, I've now managed to compile a bigger Android component <GNUtoo>It's called libsamsung-ril and it's part of Replicant <GNUtoo>however the Android.mk has several targets (LOCAL_MODULE), and it built only one of them (not the most interesting one) <GNUtoo>I've got the same issue with my Android version of libsamsung-ipc where this time it built only the most interesting target (the library itself) <GNUtoo>The good news though is that I got that far <GNUtoo>(and in not that much time, most of it was spent waiting for the tests as I had issues between guix and guile versions) <LibreCat>are you trying to port guix to a samsung phone <GNUtoo>Not really, I'm looking for a saner build system for some low level Replicant components <LibreCat>whats the diffrence between replicant and lineageos without google play services <GNUtoo>Replacing the whole Android build system by Guix is probably not doable due to the lack of time and the fact that it needs to be maintained, so right now I'm just trying that for 1 package I need which lowers the maintenance <GNUtoo>To really do that (Replace the Android by Guix) we'd need more people onboard <GNUtoo>LibreCat: LineageOS makes all the hardware work, but to do that they use nonfree libraries <GNUtoo>So for instance you had a backdoor in the library implementing the modem protocol on many Samsung devices, and it may still be there, <GNUtoo>we don't know if that backdoor was accidental or on purpose though. <LibreCat>GNUtoo: thats why i am dreaming about replacing my smartphone with a librebooted x200 as a communications machine <GNUtoo>To support the Pinephone, we need to release Replicant 10, which needs me to port libsamsung-ril to it, and to make that faster I'm trying to use Guix <GNUtoo>Though GNU/Linux may also work on the Pinephone, depending on people needs <GNUtoo>It's just two completely different approaches <str1ngs>yes, why bother with android, when I can run emacs with GNU/Linux on pinephone :) <LibreCat>how much of the gnu/linux community acually cares about the free software movement <GNUtoo>+ Running emacs requires FSO which isn't maintained anymore <GNUtoo>Note that I'm making a lot of languages shortcuts here <str1ngs>GNUtoo: my phone comes later in the mouth. but pinephone runs Linux and not Android so it should work no problem. <GNUtoo>You can run emacs without FSO, but what I'm infering is that you had bindings for FSO in emacs, so you could actually send an SMS with emacs <str1ngs>you can run android on pinephone, but why bother :) <GNUtoo>In both cases (Replicant or GNU/Linux) like with many other things, it's better to test before telling that it works for your use case <GNUtoo>In my experience both probably don't work for all use cases <str1ngs>I use Linux now works great for my use case. I don't see how pinephone won't be different <GNUtoo>You probably have many differences: For a start, the display is very small, has a very HIGH DPI, there is no precise input, there is no keyboard <GNUtoo>So it's different from a laptop for instance <GNUtoo>You need applications that are adapted to this type of computer interface <GNUtoo>Fortunately there are probably many as of today <GNUtoo>But you need to make sure they fit your use case <str1ngs>mine's coming with a usb-c hub. so actually it will be just like a laptop. with connecting to hdmi it would still have software keyboard etc. <GNUtoo>That might be way less differences with that use case <str1ngs>the issue is how stable are these things like software keyboard etc. I'd imagine that's pretty hacky. <LibreCat>which os are you planning to use on the pinephone <GNUtoo>You still have some with an X200 for instance: The CPU is ARM, You've got something like 2G of RAM (or 3G?). <str1ngs>LibreCat: probably something debian based. while I hack on guix support <GNUtoo>I'd also check the GPU support, I'm unsure at what stage it is now but it got better and better <LibreCat>str1ngs: look at debian phosh its a mix of librem 5 gui and debian 10 gnome <str1ngs>my main motive is to add phone-mode to nomad :) <GNUtoo>It would be neat to have the official tor-browser use Guix and remove nonfree software recommendation, but until then the tor-browser is not available for GNU/Linux ARM for instance <str1ngs>LibreCat: nomad is a extensible web browser using guile scheme. <GNUtoo>Some distributions like Trisquel are also lacking <GNUtoo>So it's a matter of if your use case is covered or not (as usual I guess) <LibreCat>how long would it take to compile trisquel for arm64 <str1ngs>your probably better of using Guix for arm64. I regularly build packages for my pinebook on my 3900k *GNUtoo would prefer the about:addon removed from the official tor-browser and to trick their developers to use guix for better reproducible builds as I don't know if a fork could be distinguished from the stock(s) tor-browsers <GNUtoo>(if forks can be, then you loose most of the anonimity) <str1ngs>GNUtoo: my solution has been to write my own browser. not fork some other browser :) <LibreCat>i am sceptical about building packages on a modern pc because of ME/PSP <str1ngs>I would like to add GNUNet support to nomad. and possible tor <str1ngs>LibreCat: I think those are well mitigated now. but yes hardware is always a concern not matter what free OS you are using. <GNUtoo>The way tor-browser works is to make all tor-browsers look the same to browser fingerprinting, in practice you don't have only 1 fingerprint for the tor-browser but probably something like at least 6 for desktop computers <GNUtoo>(You've got the 3 security profiles * 2 (because tails blocks adds while the stock tor-browser doesn't) <LibreCat>str1ngs: what can stop intel from injecting backdoors on the binaries we are building <str1ngs>I wonder what nomad fingerprints looks like hahah <str1ngs>LibreCat: yep, that's why we need more open hardware <LibreCat>str1ngs: but its either too expensive or to underpowered <str1ngs>atleast with ARM though it's underpowered you get really good power consumption. so it's worth using in place like laptops etc. <GNUtoo>LibreCat: it's probably irrelevant for that issue: we have reproducible builds in Guix, if an attacker used the ME/PSP, they would most likely not try to modify the binary but use other type of attacks (like DMA attacks, get stuff over serial, etc) <str1ngs>GNUtoo: Guix has really good hardware mitigation. you can ask in #bootstrappable how they hardware mitigation bootstrapping. <bonz060>In guix when defining a package, how do you specify a specific version? For example, I'd like `("python" ,python-wrapper)` to use `python-wrapper` for python3.6. How do I do that? *GNUtoo wonder what would be the next thing when we have hardware to guix bootstrap <GNUtoo>When we start having FPGAs with RISCV as a valid option that adds a huge layer again <LibreCat>str1ngs: if intel or amd gets *really* wants to destroy the FSF they can use the microprocessor to sabotage public computers and censor social media so it never reaches the majority of the gnulinux comunity <str1ngs>LibreCat: yep, thats why we need to support open hardware. <LibreCat>str1ngs: the microproccesors can also be used to make gigantic ddos attack to the fsf servers <LibreCat>str1ngs: i lost my RPI3 so i can start by purchasing an rk3399 sbc to replace it <GNUtoo>As usual companies or state deparments have risks <rekado>LibreCat: that would be silly and hardly in Intelās best interests. <GNUtoo>They don't go attack random organizations without good reasons <GNUtoo>And both Intel and TLA reason differently <rekado>bonz060: the thing after the comma (āunquoteā) is the name of a variable that is bound to a package value. <rekado>bonz060: python-wrapper is currently bound to the latest version of Python that is known to Guix. <rekado>bonz060: if you want a different package variant (e.g. one with different configure flags or using different source code) then you need to a) define it and b) reference that variable by name in the inputs. <rekado>bonz060: if you build one package with Python 3.6 (for example) you will also need to build all of its Python inputs with that same version, recursively <str1ngs>LibreCat: the ROCKPro64 looks like a really good board. has 4GB ram. you can use nvme as well. <GNUtoo>ok, passing LOCAL_MODULE= enable me to choose what to compile <GNUtoo>That whole Android stuff probably needs some better abstraction for stuff bigger than adb, and the good thing is that guix is made for that (you can do all that programatically) <GNUtoo>The bad news is that I'd need to really learn scheme to do that <str1ngs>scheme is a feature. just saying. embrace the parentheses <GNUtoo>str1ngs: what's nvme in that context? AFAIK it's an API <GNUtoo>so you've got very different things like a SATA HDD + controller that can be seen as NVME to the OS <GNUtoo>like what transport is it (PCIe? Something else?) <str1ngs>GNUtoo: nvme is a ssd pcie interface <GNUtoo>So I guess that the PCie card has a nonfree firmware and can do DMA if your IOMMU isn't setup properly (which is most likely the case) <str1ngs>most nvme are onboard, so you'd have to research the board. <str1ngs>you can buy addon cards, but probably only useful for upgrading an older system. <LibreCat>if nvme is nonfree why did i boot from it <GNUtoo>If the addons cards are pure hardware, that limits the risk at least <LibreCat>i think it depends on the nvme controller <GNUtoo>LibreCat: most storage have a nonfree firmware, so we try to mitigate the risk and issues as best we can for now <str1ngs>I personally don't buy new computers unless they have nvme slots. they are just that much faster. <str1ngs>even my external drives use nvme over usb-c <GNUtoo>LibreCat: in most case the nonfree firmware are in the devices themselves, so your distribution doesn't load the firmware <GNUtoo>So far I know the following type of memory that don't have a firmware: NOR/SPI flash, and NAND <GNUtoo>The NAND can be interfaced with many SOCs, but you typically don't get a huge amount of storage with common SOCs <LibreCat>GNUtoo: so the OS controls the NAND directly <GNUtoo>You have filesystems like ubifs and flash translation layer like UBI <LibreCat>that can work well until we have free FPGA <GNUtoo>The SOC loads the bootloader from the NAND or SPI flash, and then the bootloader knows how to read that type of memory, same for Linux <LibreCat>i wiil look for an SBC with built-in NAND storage <GNUtoo>Both often even share part of the drivers code <GNUtoo>What would be neat would be to port Linux on an SSD SOC <GNUtoo>The good thing is that it's probably easier than HDD to work with <GNUtoo>The flash chip can easily be dumped in any room and the flash stuff are already well known <GNUtoo>Flash stuff means how Linux can use the flash with ubi, ubifs, and so on <GNUtoo>The issue is how we make all that sustainable <GNUtoo>Moore's law slowed down a lot in CPUs so we have a huge room here <GNUtoo>We can take years to design a laptop, no issue here <LibreCat>or we could focus on free quantum computing <GNUtoo>But if storage keeps increasing, it's more complicated <GNUtoo>Though I'd love to be able to erase data on my SSD <GNUtoo>You could do stuff that is impossible otherwise <GNUtoo>like make sure the data is erased <GNUtoo>If data is written on an HDD or SSD you can never be sure that it's erased <GNUtoo>If you've got some luck it is though <GNUtoo>And that's probably beyond recoverable <GNUtoo>But due to the FTL, stuff gets moved around <GNUtoo>Not only that, but if users expects it to be deleted, it shall be deleted <GNUtoo>or at least it shall be possible to explain to users why it's not deleted by default and also add a way to really delete stuff <GNUtoo>This way people can reuse drives without issues <GNUtoo>eMMC has firmware, so does microSD, so does USB keys, so does HDD, SSD, SD too, etc <LibreCat>GNUtoo: and be comfortable storing private data <GNUtoo>or be confortable giving hardware to people <GNUtoo>+ reliabilty could be improved a lot <GNUtoo>+ lot of security issues could be mitigated etc <LibreCat>GNUtoo: + the speed could also be improved <GNUtoo>It would probably need to have a better NAND framework in Linux and I've no idea at what state we are on that <GNUtoo>There were plans years ago to rework it <GNUtoo>but I'm unsure if that was done or not <LibreCat>GNUtoo: can i use gpio pins to wire a nand chip directly <GNUtoo>I've no idea, but that'd be super slow <GNUtoo>(GPIO requires the CPU to be interrupted and toggle the pins) <GNUtoo>As it's almost impossible to find reliable microSD (they are very expensive and easily clonable), people were using RAW NAND before using eMMC <GNUtoo>AFAIK, all the ones I used don't seem to have any firmware <GNUtoo>I don't recall in which devices they were though but they were in SOCs that were friendly to free software like the older I.MX SOCs <GNUtoo>I think the Openmoko had some NAND too but it's probably too old in my head to remember well <GNUtoo>Indeed they are super slow (I benchmarked them) <GNUtoo>Compiling stuff takes ages there <GNUtoo>but I didn't test other things than compiling <LibreCat>does it make sense to get nand chips from dead ssd'S <sneek>guix-vits, you have 1 message! <sneek>guix-vits, str1ngs says: the bug with the infrastructure link on https://ask.fedoraproject.org/. Happens because requests for new windows by JavaScript was not being handled by 'decide-policy signal. It should work if you test from git. Thanks for reporting this. I'll get all of these fixes into a point release soon as well. <joshuaBPMan>Hey #guix! I'm trying to configure pulseaudio...essentially I cannot use the command line to change my output device. <joshuaBPMan>I'm trying to change a line to the default.pa file that looks like this: <joshuaBPMan>load-module module-stream-restore restore_device=false <joshuaBPMan>I'm getting this error: guix system: error: Wrong type argument in position ~A: ~S <guix-vits>The LibreCat did said: "I need an nick. That will be my nick." and disconnected. <guix-vits>And, You know: my childhood raised from the bottom to the head.. <joshuaBPMan>raghavgururajan: yup. That's what I'm looking at. I actually just disabled my pulse service, and I'm still getting that error. <joshuaBPMan>so something else is causing that issues...I'm looking into it now. <joshuaBPMan>raghavgururajan: I want to change a line in "default.pa". <joshuaBPMan>regardless my issue actually is in my unintended-upgrade-service. I did something wrong there. Got to fix that first. <raghavgururajan>joshuaBPMan, Ah! Then use 'pulseaudio-service-type' and change the value for 'script-file'. <joshuaBPMan>but again, the issue is in my unintended-upgrade-service. I think I can fix it though. <joshuaBPMan>raghavgururajan: also thanks for packaging linphone. It works great on my machine. <raghavgururajan>LibreCat, yesterday, you were asking about fonts for good unicode and emojis support. I use `font-gnu-unifont` for good unicode support and `font-google-noto` for good i18n and emojis support. <NieDzejkob>hmm, I have font-google-noto installed, and emoji work in my terminal, but don't work in IceCat <guixy>I am not able to search for and subscribe to podcasts from Rhythmbox <guixy>It says it's unable to search for podcasts, and to check my internet connection <guixy>I don't think the connection is a problem... <mroh>guixy: do you get any (error) log if you start it from console/terminal? <nly>i don't know you please don't talk to me *guix-vits in any strange situation, say "Yes!" <nly>read the logs, yay for new release <guix-vits>^^^ So, guixy are having "check Your connection" issue within Rhytmbox. <guixy>guix-vits, yes. I sent a bug report a year ago. I don't think anyone touched it. <guixy>nly, What do you want us to look at that issue for? The most recent response was only a few hours ago. <nly>is it ready for guix? <guixy>nly, I tried applying it, it says there are a lot of trailing whitespaces. *guix-vits next time will M-x untabify, then... *guix-vits no, whitespaces.. <guixy>I think it refers to whitespace at the end of a line <nly>guixy i had the same issue, but i was able to fix it <mroh>guixy: which bugnumber is your report? I'm not able to find it <nly>guixy use the latest patch <guixy>mroh, maybe I never sent the bug report... <guixy>nly, I did download the most recent patch... <guix-vits>guixy: i didn't get that error because used `patch -p1 < ...`. Next time i'll remove the whitespaces. Didn't know they're there. <guixy>nly, where should I look for the save files? <guix-vits>guixy: nowhere: it's TODO to make the phantasia, hack, and sail to work. <guix-vits>Plane is to make use of BSD_GAMES_DIR and getenv(). <nly>guixy most games do not use save files like bsd-arithemetic and bsd-tetris <guix-vits>Yes, i'd forget about this tool. Thanks guixy. *guix-vits should give a better care to his parentheses. <guixy>guix environment --ad-hoc emacs-minimal -- etc/indent-code.el gnu/packages/games.scm bsd-games moves some comments. <guixy>I have a history of not having good patches to send to guix. I got so fed up with forgetting to use the provided tools that I wrote a script to automate it. <guixy>When I had a lot of patches saved up, I had an interactive rebase and used that script to check after every patch series. <guixy>I recommend you modify it before you use it. It checks for my email address. <guixy>Also I have it use vim to edit. You might want to replace that with $EDITOR <guixy>Wow, my script from last month is a bit sloppy... <guixy>Do all the bsd-games have a bsd- prefix or was that added? <rekahsoft>Hi all, what is the best way to go about replacing a package in guix from a thirdparty channel? That is, I want to replace `emacs-all-the-icons` with a version I will write myself that inherts from the upstream `emacs-all-the-icons` package but sets the source location to be melpa instead of melpa-stable. <guix-vits>guixy: was added in use-anthology-style-naming for convenience: bsd- TAB --> choice, in one place. <guixy>rekahsoft, --with-source=SOURCE <guixy> use SOURCE when building the corresponding package <guixy> --with-input=PACKAGE=REPLACEMENT <guixy> replace dependency PACKAGE by REPLACEMENT <guixy> --with-graft=PACKAGE=REPLACEMENT <guixy> graft REPLACEMENT on packages that refer to PACKAGE <guixy> --with-branch=PACKAGE=BRANCH <guixy> build PACKAGE from the latest commit of BRANCH <guixy> --with-commit=PACKAGE=COMMIT <guixy> build PACKAGE from the repository at URL <guixy>It all depends on how you have your code. <guixy>rekahsoft, or are you referring to the actual guix package definition? <guixy>I haven't played around with channel package name conflicts. <guixy>You might as well use a different special name. <rekahsoft>guixy: Not really. That is pretty straight forward. What I'm wondering is if a channel has a package with the same name as the guix channel, how that is handled? <rekahsoft>guixy: By 'that is pretty sraight forward' I mean the package definition <guixy>idk how guix handles name conflicts. <rekahsoft>guixy: Seems like you are also unsure of how channel package name conflicts will work. I am still using a fork of guix instead of maintaining a separate channel, but just ran into an issue where guix packages melpa-stable by default but I need the melpa version for a dependency I added to my fork (that I haven't committed upstream yet) <guixy>I just maintin my own channel for development and forsake upstream. <rekahsoft>guixy: sorry I missed you, internet dropped off :( <rekahsoft>If there is a package name conflict between channels, what happens? <guixy>Not everyone likes prefixing the bsd games with bsd-. Instead of renaming the binaries, how abotu we instead make links with the prefix? <guixy>sometimes right-clicking the status icon in xfce closes hexchat. <guixy>It doesn't even bring up the menu. It just quits. <guixy>I don't know what happens. when there's a name conflict. But it's not too hard to test. Just make a package called hello. <guixy>One thing you could do is change the version string. that way you can specify the unstable package. <guixy>Since they use different sources, it makes sense to specify the packages have different versions. <guixy>Instead of 4.0.1 make it 4.0.1-melpa <guixy>Then when you install it, use emacs-all-the-icons@4.0.1-melpa <rekahsoft>guixy: Yup, I'm going to test and report back <LibreCat>raghavgururajan: yes i am potential user 11 and didnt change my nick and yes gnu unicode fonts fixed my issue <rekahsoft>Off work today because my wife is sick, so I'm hoping I'll have some time as I'm mostly 'off' work :p <guixy>rekahsoft, When you specify it as a source to a package, maybe give the module a prefix. <guixy>#:use-module ((path to module) #:prefix melpa:) <guixy>lol You know it's a good idea when you see that smiley face <guixy>That's just one of the Joys of Lisp(tm) <guix-vits>guixy: IDK. The game fish is called same as the fish shell, the game fortune.. tetris.. i just swipe off the name collisions too at the same time. <guixy>guix-vits, good point. I don't know what happens when binary names collide. <guixy>Do they produce a fundamental binary name that decays almost instantly? <guix-vits>guixy: I've not understood the question, honestly. <guixy>Based on a brief experiment, the most recent install wins <guixy>So if you have fish installed already, that would be a problem. <guixy>Unless you install bsd-games to another profile added to the PATH later than fish.. <guixy>So don't remove the prefixes <guixy>Though maybe we can compromise by skipping that step in a "noprefix" output... <guixy>Then those who know what they're doing and don't like the bsd prefix to everything can just install "bsd-games:noprefix" <guixy>If you don't add that output, I'll work on it and propose it as a patch later. <guix-vits>guixy: That is a good point. Though i do think that using the shell auto-completion those games can be listed all: with a TAB key. Like a "what games are there? -- bsd- TAB". <guixy>I just call `ls $(guix build bsd-games | head -n1)/bin` to see what's available. <guixy>And guix show bsd-games lists all the available games. <guixy>There are a lot of games not listed in any obvious autocomplete. <guixy>I can always add an output, so you don't have to work on the output now. *guix-vits reordered v"anthology"v and ^"wrapper"^ patches. <guix-vits>LibreCat: the minetest site has a list of mods and games. One of them supposed to be a clone of minecraft. <guix-vits>(Android version, afaik, has a interface for downloading mods just from the game). <LibreCat>so what minetest lacks in features and addictiveness is more than made up by mods <LibreCat>bavier[m]1: and guix-vits you made me extremely happy <LibreCat>i am finally free of minecraft a game ive been playing for a very long time <bavier[m]1>I have a neglected patch set that adds guix packages for a few of the popular minetest mods, but minetest itself needs to be patched to load mods from search path <LibreCat>i was spoiled by Minenotcraft so time didnt pass quickly <LibreCat>not craft because you can only vote not write code <rndd>hi everyone! is there a variable (during package building) where end directory path stored? <bavier[m]1>rndd: available to the build derivations in the `%output` variable; see packages for examples <bavier[m]1>sometimes accessed via the `outputs` keyword argument <rndd>bavier[m]1: what keyword arguments are available? <bavier[m]1>it depends on the build-system and the build phase. You can look in the build-system code to see what is available. <rndd>bavier[m]1: thanks for the info <msavoritias[m]>I wanted to create an ssh key like the one used in github and gittea and other code hosting services. What tool are you guys using for ssh key creation? <msavoritias[m]>i avoided openssh due to the non gpl license. but lsh doesnt seem to work for me <msavoritias[m]>i used the command lsh-export-key --fingerprint but nothing gets exported <rndd>msavoritias[m]: openssh has bsd license <rndd>msavoritias[m]: dunno, but most common choice <rndd>bavier[m]1: how i can get current directory (when package is building) path? <rndd>in other words, what variable stores working dir path <rndd>msavoritias[m]: you always can write on lsh-bugs@lists.lysator.liu.se <msavoritias[m]><rndd "msavoritias: you always can writ"> i will try that. thanks for the pointer <rndd>msavoritias[m]: so you can choose between openssh (BSD) and dropbear (MIT). or write your own <Formbi>msavoritias[m]: Ā«im pretty strict to use gpl when i canĀ» why tho? <rndd>msavoritias[m]: try openssh. i personally like bsd licanse <Formbi>it would make a difference if you were making the things yourself IMO <msavoritias[m]>well personally i am more into fairness. GPL-3 specifically is more fair than other non-copyleft licenses so i have a pretty hard line whenever i can. All the applications on my phone are GPL-3 for example <msavoritias[m]>fair to the freedom of users that is. and freedom of information as a whole. Also I am pretty anti corporate so <Formbi>do you have a secret GPL-3 Linux? <Formbi>I'm pretty anti-corporate as well, but as long as the program is free, it could've been made by Martians <rndd>msavoritias[m]: i think you should read bsd license (again). i'm not sure about devs but for users (as i got it you need it as user) it's absolutely fine <LibreCat>i was also wondering why linux libre is stuck at gpl2 <msavoritias[m]><Formbi "do you have a secret GPL-3 Linux"> that is a problem of linux. its not whooly GPL-3. prefferably AGPL-3 so we have the cloud covered <msavoritias[m]><LibreCat "i was also wondering why linux l"> the kernel is GPL-2 <msavoritias[m]><rndd "msavoritias: i think you should "> I see it as like somebody can close source the code whenever they want. That doesn't seem to me freedom of the user but freedom of the developer <msavoritias[m]><LibreCat "it doesnt have blobs"> the source code of the Linux Kernel, that Linux Libre is withough the blobs its GPL-2 <lfam>What do you mean LibreCat? The authors of Linux have shared it under the GPL2 and we don't have the rights to change that <rndd>LibreCat: you can ask in ##linux <lfam>And since it has had thousands of authors, it will not be feasible to change, even if the main Linux team wanted to change it <msavoritias[m]><Formbi "I'm pretty anti-corporate as wel"> Its not enough to be only free for me. It needs to be copyleft. So a company can't close source it against the communities wishes. And the license stays the same of course <LibreCat>its only a matter of time until gnulinux gets invaded by tech corparations and most common distros have a lot of non free software <lfam>And I'll add that the main Linux team doesn't want to change it <lfam>Most distros do have a lot of non-free software <lfam>At least in the kernel drivers <msavoritias[m]><LibreCat "its only a matter of time until "> Linux Foundation is already run by Corporations mostly so... take that as you will <lfam>To me, it doesn't make sense to fear corporations so much, as if individual developers or volunteer groups are better from a moral or ethical perspective <lfam>There are lots of evil individual developers who make FOSS <lfam>The relationship between the effects of the software and the creators' broader effect on the world is basically nil <lfam>Whatever kind of evil you can imagine <lfam>I'm just saying that corporations are not inherently worse <lfam>From a USA-centric perspective, some of the most destructive organizations in society are small businesses <lfam>But for some reason they are worshipped while corporations are demonized <lfam>But small businesses are mostly terrible places to work <rndd>lfam: i agree, my experience is similar. if small buisness is not foss centric, it's terrible place to work <lfam>Not to say that corporations are inherently better, but it just works out that they are better to work for, and can actually pay for their mistakes <lfam>Well we are really going off topic. I'm sorry <lfam>I could rant about this all day and it would not help Guix or free software <msavoritias[m]><lfam "To me, it doesn't make sense to "> if they are non-profit or cooperative its fine for me <Formbi>msavoritias[m]: a company can do whatever it wants <Formbi>and people can still use old versions <Formbi>a company could change the license from GPL 3 to a nonfree shit in a next version <lfam>Yes... if they own the rights! It's not a problem for Linux since the rights are held by the contributors <msavoritias[m]><Formbi "a company could change the licen"> but that is why we have FSF and the likes. They defend contributors against companies abusing the license <lfam>Interesting story about changing a license is OpenSSL <lfam>They had to spend years contacting contributors to get approval, and had to replace parts of the code when they could not get approval 