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<vagrantc>guix could have dependency packages for recommended package sets, such as the way gcc-toolchain pulls in several dependent packages ... that could be where you include the "default" font
<kmicu>I tend to think those are real dependencies and should be declared as inputs for a package but that bring some unpleasant trade offs.
<nckx>Yeah, I don't think anybody's happy with the current situation but the alternative is (IMO) also bad.
<fnstudio>kmicu: ah... right, now i get it
<kmicu>But I also make home read only so don’t listen to me.
<nckx>kmicu: They're not even inputs, really. They have no effect on the build. That's certainly not unique to icons/fonts but I think it's a sign.
<kmicu>(I do that because e.g. an error in gnupg config can render your desktop unbootable so I prefer to delegate everything to Guix.)
<nckx>How the hell do you boot, friend. GPG-encryted dotfiles? -everything?
<kmicu>nckx: a font can segfault an app. For me that’s an input, it affects a program and must be handled as a real dependency.
<kmicu>nckx: ‘unbootable desktop’ not os.
<nckx>Dependency, yes, not an input.
<kmicu>desktop as in desktop environmet*
<nckx>kmicu: Desktop to me is desktop environment.
<nckx>How does a broken GPG lock you out your desktop?
<kmicu>Then if you source something in xsession and that thing sources some dotfiles the whole xsession can fail.
<kmicu>But we cannot rollback in such case because dotfiles are not managed by Guix.
<nckx>Sure, that I get, I'm just very curious what set-up you're describing. Not questioning that it exists.
<nckx>Or why.
<nckx>kmicu: I also assumed read-only home + Guix → guix home (manager), I guess not.
<kmicu>A setup with home‑manager where Guix also manages home but I’m not sure whether that’s your question.
<kmicu>I’m also lost on dependency is not an input remark.
<fnstudio>(since you mention dot files... so i understand those are not handled by guix directly? so, once i manage to switch to guix system, a complete description of my machine will be guix scm file + dot files (+ storage of course); is that correct?)
<nckx>kmicu: I wonder how a broken gnupg configuration could break your DE. I do a lot of weird stuff in my .xsession, but a failing command just silently fails unless the subsequent commands actually rely on it.
<nckx>fnstudio: Basically, currently, everything under /home/you is your problem. To Guix there's no difference between dotfiles in ~ and documents in ~: it's all ignored.
<nckx>This as opposed to /var where Guix will leave most things alone but there's no promise. Services will chmod, mkdir, or remove things if they think it's necessary.
<fnstudio>nckx: right, cool; me thinking out loud: but then each app goes and reads its conf from my .config/myapp file, yes, ok i think i get it
<nckx>fnstudio: But then there's <>, currently an unofficial ‘add-on’, that explores a few Guix-like concepts for ~. It's still configured separately from Guix though.
<fnstudio>nckx: and the idea of migrating from my host system to a hybrid that's more and more guix-based til the point where i can do the switch to guix system... does that sound as a generally sensible migration plan?
<kmicu>nckx: it’s a real world scenario so old it’s from Nix world. Somehow a change in gnupg config renderd my Xorg dead. I was able to fix it quickly thanks to snapshots diffing. Iirc it was one incorrect line in gpg-agent’s config.
<pkill9>fnstudio: that's kind of what i did, starting with guix as a package manager
<nckx>fnstudio: It sounds OK. I've never actually tried it.
<fnstudio>pkill9 nckx: cool, thanks both
<nckx>kmicu: Interesting.
<kmicu>Details are not important, what’s important is that rollback could not fix the issue because home was not managed by Nix.
<nckx>I was curious about the details.
<kmicu>I assume that was a combination of NixOS’ desktop services mess… logic.
<fnstudio>my cursor/pointer is considerably reduced in size when hovering on my (guix) icecat... do you know if that can be any missing (soft-)dependency?
<fnstudio>(icecat 68.7.0esr, although i suspect it's more of a problem with some underlying graphical library...)
<nckx>My guess is that Guix's IceCat doesn't completely integrate with your host desktop's mouse pointer theme.
<kmicu>fnstudio: it’s possible you need to set DPI for GTK from Guix.
<nckx>Oh, Guix doesn't even have cursor themes.
<kmicu>You basically cross streams by using desktop elements from Guix and desktop elements from your native distro.
<nckx>Well put.
<nckx>Theming is *hard*, with so many toolkits and versions of them.
<fnstudio>cross streams lol, i like that
<PotentialUser-57>Hi.the videos are broken on the webpage
<nckx>PotentialUser-57: Thanks for the report. What goes wrong? They work here (Guix System, IceCat).
<nckx>I'm playing the 3 under ‘Discover Guix’ on the home page.
<nckx> also play for me.
<PotentialUser-57>My iPad.
<nckx>PotentialUser-57: Does the direct link work for you?
<kmicu>[Jokin’] Maybe Apple only allows DRMed videos 😺
<nckx>We use utterly standard & boring HTML <video> elements, nothing fancy whatsover, this should work everywhere videos are played.
<lfam>I bet the ipad does not support this codec
<PotentialUser-57>I’m ssh-ing from the iPad terminal onto a Linode instance
<nckx>Now I don't know much about the Internet, but webm… I mean, it has Web in the name. And M! That has to stand for something!
<nckx>(Anyway, I'm surprised; it's not obscure AFAIK.)
<lfam>iOS does not support Opus or Vorbis audio so they probably do not support VP8 / VP9
<nckx>What the absolute.
<lfam>I've been struggling with this regarding internet radio. The only thing that works on all platforms is MP3
<pkill9>who narrated that video?
<PotentialUser-57>Will it play on Firefox?
<nckx>pkill9: IIRC it was Paul Garlick.
<lfam>PotentialUser-57: Firefox on iOS?
<nckx>If it provides its own codecs it will. Otherwise, probably not.
<lfam>I would try it. It's a big "maybe"
<nckx>lfam: I am genuinely shocked.
<lfam>So that video is VP9 / Opus. I don't think it will work in Safari or any of the native iOS players
<nckx>What do they play?
<lfam>I think we try to also have mp4 videos available
<lfam>Basically, if it requires royalties, iOS supports it
<lfam>If it's designed to contribute to the common good, iOS does not support it
<lfam>Thankfully MP3 has / is entering the public domain
<kmicu>half of youtube is VP8/VP9…
<nckx>I'm going to stop reacting because whatever more I say will sound exaggerated & put on.
<nckx>It is not.
<lfam>Yes kmicu, but youtube detects client capabilities to send the right thing
<lfam>I think that iOS supports VP8
<nckx>Because it's mandated by WebRTC.
<lfam>It sucks but we should re-encode in VP8 and another audio codec
<nckx>(I'm just reading from the URL you just gave.)
<PotentialUser-57>Well I am using text manual anyway. Just wanted to give a heads up because it doesn’t look good to have broken things on the main website
<lfam>No it's really too bad
<nckx>We could do some nginx magic to detect iOS.
<lfam>Or that
<kmicu>Thank you PotentialUser-57
<nckx>PotentialUser-57: It's ‘not our fault’ but of course that's no excuse. Thank you.
<PotentialUser-57>No problem! I’m looking forward to trying out guix
<PotentialUser-57>I like scheme.
<nckx>lfam: You sound like you know this stuff?
<kmicu>Just switch to AV1 and let’s all suffer.
<lfam>PotentialUser-57: I'd appreciate if you could try in iOS Firefox
<lfam>nckx: Just a bit
<lfam>It's kinda my day job that I don't have anymore
<PotentialUser-57>It didn’t load in iOS Firefox
<lfam>Okay, thanks PotentialUser-57
<kmicu>lfam: thank you for confirming. TIL.
<lfam>AAC is actually a great cross-platform audio codec but there may or may not be licensing issues
*nckx opens a bug.
<PotentialUser-57>Nor does it work on iOS chrome
<lfam>AAC licensing:
<lfam>I keep a private "my-ffmpeg" package that adds libfdk support
<PotentialUser-57>I’m sure there may be an app that can do it, but the point is easy on boarding for the general public, if Guix community desires that...
<kmicu>lfam: iiuc licensing issues does not affect users (in this case a clip on Guix website).
<lfam>kmicu: AV1 / Opus is soooooooo good. It's a shame that Apple doesn't support it
<fnstudio>kmicu: sorry... when you said "set DPI for GTK from Guix", could you give me some other pointer? i tried to look that up but couldn't find anything
<lfam>I agree kmicu, but it might get complicated socially
<lfam>Basically we should set a good example in terms of licensing and be better than what would be required of a private user
<PotentialUser-57>maybe just text would be best. But broken stuff isn’t a good example
<lfam>PotentialUser-57: If you'd like to test another thing, you could try the iOS VLC app. I believe it should work and it would be a useful data point
<lfam>We can't rely on users using that app but it would still be useful to get a "it worked" result
<lfam>Apparently we can expect iOS support for AV1 / Opus in a year or two. Then everyone will be able to just use the same thing. I can't wait
<kmicu>lfam: yes, thank you, considering trade‑off between users reach (and a11y) vs using only teaching materials created with libre tools is also important.
<PotentialUser-38>I hope you understand. I don’t mean to stir up discord
<kmicu>fnstudio: but I’m not sure whether you have DPI issue or missing pointer icons.
<lfam>Not at all PotentialUser-38! It's important to report these issues, since many of us don't have iOS devices and won't notice the problem
<lfam>We will fix it
<kmicu>PotentialUser-38: you’ve stirred a good discussion. Nothing wrong about that.
<lfam>kmicu: Right, but I think we can use h264 / aac in an mp4 container
<PotentialUser-38>Ok 😊
<lfam>We have freely-licensed implementations
<PotentialUser-38>I understand
<kmicu>fnstudio: it looks like IceCat from Guix is based on GTK2.
<PotentialUser-38>im going to try to spin up guix on Linode now, later...
<nckx>lfam: Cool, I was going to suggest those. But you said something about potential issues earlier I think?
<nckx>*with AAC
<kmicu>fnstudio: in such case it’s probably a missing cursor theme but as pointed out by nckx I don’t see any of them in Guix 🤷
<PotentialUser-38>I’m using this tutorial
<PotentialUser-38>it’s brand new
<nckx>kmicu: I guess all of Guixdom is happy with the default black one? I know I am.
<nckx>PotentialUser-38: Did you mean to link to a shell script?
<nckx>I mean, it is a tutorial… for computers.
<fnstudio>kmicu: yeah, i'd also think it's a missing cursor theme as icecat otherwise looks good (eg font-size wise)
<PotentialUser-38>I mean here
<lfam>nckx: FFmpeg is GPL2+, and FSF says that the AAC encoder implementation's license is not GPL compatible. So, we can't distribute the FFmpeg / libfdk program
<lfam>But, we can use it. It works and I use it all the time
<PotentialUser-38>wrong link
<nckx>I think MP3 is fine quality-wise, really.
<lfam>Yes it's fine at high bitrates
<nckx>As a fall-back sent to hostile devices I mean.
<lfam>Or low bitrates
<lfam>It's fine for speech
<lfam>Just annoying when much better options exist now
<lfam>Where are the videos kept?
<kmicu>(We cannot distribute program but we can distribute data created by such program if they are libre licensed.)
<nckx>Well, it's the device being (deliberately?) inferior, not us.
<kmicu>fnstudio: could you install xcursor-theme and restart icecat?
<nckx>kmicu: That's very true, but… we're a GNU project, hosted at… I can understand a reluctance to do it.
<nckx>I'm personally fine with it if it's only sent to crippled devices to spread the good news of GNU.
<kmicu>That’s true. Is reaching more users to share GNU message worthy? That’s not my call. (Personally I think that’s a good trade‑off).
<lfam>I know that the greater GNU audio / video repository includes MP4 because of this issue
<lfam>I don't recall where to find this but I've seen it before
<kmicu>On the other hand using Twitter/Faceebok to post about Guix… in my opinion is not worth it.
<kmicu>(As in having official Guix account on those platform and sharing news about the project.)
<nckx>kmicu: Our videos are also deliberately shipped as ‘source’, with a Makefile & all. Putting a reference to libfdk in there would make our own video repo non-FSDG. Weird.
<fnstudio>kmicu: nope, xcursor-themes didn't do it...
<bavier[m]1>the guix-hpc folks have a twitter account. I don't know who is driving it.
<nckx>So that complicates matters compared to a random Guixer encoding them once on their laptop.
<nckx>Maybe it's nothing, IDK.
<lfam>nckx: Where are the videos kept?
<nckx>I thought artwork but I guess not.
<lfam>Mark used to handle this IIRC
<nckx>, who'd have thought.
<lfam>Everything is a Git repo
<nckx>lfam: I thought Mark only uploaded them to GNU A-V.
<lfam>Fascinating, but there must be another repo that contains the "non-slideshow" videos
<lfam>Could be nckx!
<nckx>The Twitter thing? Nope.
<nckx>I really try hard not to Tweet.
<kmicu>Making a bridge from fediverse and making twitter pots read only is even bigger gray area.
<nckx>Unfortunately one cannot study contemporary politix and not have a Twitter account.
<lfam>Perhaps I confused us with FOSDEM. Their videos are in webm or mp4:
<fnstudio>kmicu: also tried gnome-themes-standard and gnome-themes-extra but no luck with them either
<lfam>Did somebody say they'd file a bug report about this issue?
<nckx>lfam: I did.
<kmicu>fnstudio: I would find out what cursor theme uses your distro by default and contribute it into Guix as a first patch xD
<nckx>One of us! One of us!
<kmicu>nckx: for those I have rss feeds via niiter. That way I can still read Twitter but not directly load any Twitter resources.
<lfam>nckx: Do you know how to do the nginx stuff?
<fnstudio>kmicu: good point! and i'll seriously work on that... but i now started questioning whether i had really restarted icecat
<kmicu>pkill icecat, sudo pkill icecat, reboot, sudo reboot, should do the trick xD
<nckx>lfam: Sure. Assuming the Schemey syntax doesn't get in the way.
<kmicu>BTW, there’s nginx conspiracy nckx should create an infographic
<nckx>‘sudo pkill icecat’, for when you need to kill your ‘sudo icecat’.
<lfam>Lol I can't believe they are suing nginx
<lfam>No matter what, once you get a lot of money, you'll get sued
<nckx>kmicu: That's the boring kind of conspiracy tho' ☹
<lfam>And if you don't have any money, you won't get sued. And that's how software and patent licensing really works
*nckx will now be AFK in suspiciously innings-sized chunks.
<kmicu>BootHole‽ Are you kiddin’ me‽
*nckx snorted.
<lfam>It's gonna be a while before Linux has a truly secure boot
<lfam>Only Apple has pulled it off so far and they design their own silicon
<lfam>I love GRUB but "a serious bug has been found in the GRUB2 bootloader code which reads and parses its configuration (grub.cfg)"
<lfam>is not surprising
<lfam>There is a "grub.cfg" validator tool in the GRUB codebase and I wasn't able to make it fail no matter what I fed it
<lfam>It's a small team and a legacy codebase. And if you mess up people can't boot. It's hard to make progress in that case
<lfam>And similar for Linux itself
<NieDzejkob> is 504'ing again...
<nckx>Seems to be staying up now.
<nckx>NieDzejkob <yacc>: Yes, that's what I meant.
<NieDzejkob>hmm, a glance at guix weather says tcc is not available as a substitute, but the build succeeds locally. Could I ask for some mild percussive maintenance on CI in this area?
<NieDzejkob>it seems the same applies to go-sctp
<NieDzejkob>also: slim
<nckx>NieDzejkob: slim had actually been built but was marked erroneously as failed (fixed: tcc and go-sctp did actually fail their test suite. Let me retry…
<nckx>tcc builds locally for me too.
<NieDzejkob>hmm, the go-sctp logfile was truncated, so I checked locally and it built
<nckx>I noticed that too, but it does actually fail tests on berlin.
<nckx>I'm building everything again with -c1 (again)…
<nckx>Now go-sctp is silent at ‘starting phase ‘check’’…
<NieDzejkob>do you have, like, a sikret backdoor access to the logs that sidesteps the part that truncates them?
<nckx>Now it built (I wish I'd been tracking which build nodes got the job each time but I wasn't) and is seemingly stuck retrieving 1 store item from ''...
<nckx>NieDzejkob: Er, the sekrit power of ‘zless’. The log wasn't truncated then 🤷
<NieDzejkob>well, I'm using the web interface...
<nckx>So go-sctp finally succeeds and now is definitely stuck on the build node 😒
<nckx>because the clock just struck four and the big GC lock has been taken 🤦🤦🤦
<NieDzejkob>the tcc failure looks like it was caused by parallel tests
<nckx>And yet: guix build -c1 /gnu/store/prcxypiarca3cah8h65bpdwg856zdbhj-tcc-0.9.27.drv
<nckx>(Which doesn't mean the makefile honours that, of course, maybe a good place to start debugging.)
<nckx>The whole clock striking four thing reminds me I should get some sleep.
*NieDzejkob is in the same timezone
<NieDzejkob>is it at least consistent in what tests fail?
<nckx>Unless things have changed a lot the GC lock is held for hours anyway.
<nckx>NieDzejkob: I didn't save the previous logs (they are overwritten). I didn't expect to be locked out.
<NieDzejkob>BTW, balsa seems to be another package that needs encouragement
<nckx>NieDzejkob: Link?
<nckx>(There's no DB entry for the latest /gnu/store/l7f2fl5b8wxcy8pb7bcy46nlkslw3mja-balsa-2.6.1.drv).
<NieDzejkob>how come?
<NieDzejkob>(I'm looking at guix weather in this case...)
<NieDzejkob>there is no relevant pending evaluation...
<nckx>I don't know.
<nckx>Are all logs just truncated now:
<nckx>This is just plain suspicious:
<NieDzejkob>(that link's showing only failed builds for me right now...)
<nckx>Which link?
<NieDzejkob>the balsa search
<nckx>Reproducibility \o/
<nckx>Unless IceCat has a sekrit bonus cache, I don't understand.
<nckx>Now it's changed *again*.
<nckx>Failed → dependency failed.
***terpri_ is now known as terpri
<NieDzejkob>I've got two tabs open...
<NieDzejkob>is there an open bug for this search weirdness?
<NieDzejkob>both it and I could use a debugging session...
<nckx>There's one for the logs <> but I don't find one for search. I'd be obliged if you reported one.
<nckx>TBH this is why I don't run Cuirass myself and avoid getting involved with the CI one.
<nckx>It's not that I don't want to help but you get sucked into a recursive bug-hole before bed time and here we are. I need to go to work in 3 hours; I'm calling it a night. See you!
<PotentialUser-74>Hi. I’m trying to install guix. At the very end of the process I get an error.
<PotentialUser-74>It says error in my scam confit file
<PotentialUser-74>ungexp-native:unbound variable
<PotentialUser-74>hint: Did you forget a ‘use-modules’ form?
<jorge[m]3>En la versión guix 2.0 es que viene con hurd?
<NieDzejkob>PotentialUser-74: is that a manually-edited config, or one generated with the graphical installer?
<NieDzejkob>PotentialUser-74: okay, could you post the config, then? You can pipe it to | nc 9999
<NieDzejkob>(I think nc is available on the install image. If not, guix install netcat)
<PotentialUser-74>Paste in isn’t working for me. I don’t know how to pipe
<PotentialUser-74>I’m on Debian
***tricon` is now known as triconium
<PotentialUser-74>staging it.
<PotentialUser-74>i have the guix disk ready
<PotentialUser-74>and mounted
<NieDzejkob>wait, so are you trying to install Guix System, or Guix the package manager on top of Debian?
<NieDzejkob>do you have access to your configuration file from here?
<NieDzejkob>or do you need to reboot into the installer again/
<NieDzejkob>okay, and you're saying that copy-paste is not working on your debian?
<NieDzejkob>you can use a command like cat config.scm | nc 9999
<PotentialUser-74>that has my config on the tutorial. I added my credentiala
<NieDzejkob>oh, I think you copied the #+BEGIN_SRC scheme line too
<NieDzejkob>that's not part of the config
<PotentialUser-74>I can’t paste it on this irc
<NieDzejkob>that's just how the author delimits their codeblocks
<NieDzejkob>yeah, on IRC you usually post links to pastebin sites for larger blocks of code
<PotentialUser-74>ipastebin isn’t working for me
<PotentialUser-74>on my browser
<PotentialUser-74>i have pop ups unblocked
<NieDzejkob>how about
<PotentialUser-74>I deleted the hash marked lines beginning and end now I’ll try again
<PotentialUser-74>It still says I have an unbound variable
<NieDzejkob>paste the full error, with line numbers and everything
<NieDzejkob>(I think there are line numbers. I hope :P)
<PotentialUser-97>I don’t think it accepts my iP as a host name?
<PotentialUser-97>I just put the number in quotes. Maybe I should take the quotes off
<NieDzejkob>what do you usually have after the @ in your bash prompt?
<NieDzejkob>I think dots aren't allowed in a hostname. not sure. maybe it's the numbers at the start
<NieDzejkob>why are you trying to use an IP as a hostname?
<PotentialUser-69>it's what I usually do
<PotentialUser-69>I'm on linode
<PotentialUser-69>I don't know the proper namespace url
<PotentialUser-69>I can't upload anything to you sorry. I've tried
<PotentialUser-42>hi there
<PotentialUser-42>so I usually do ssh root@
<PotentialUser-42>it's the only what I know how
<NieDzejkob>why do you think that the IP in the hostname field is the problem?
<NieDzejkob>did you read what you pasted? there's lots of garbage, there's only a random excerpt of the config, and no error message
<PotentialUser-42>I'm sorry I can't do it
<PotentialUser-42>all these tools don't work on this webpage
<NieDzejkob>you can use any irc client you want
<PotentialUser-42>I don't know how
<PotentialUser-42>I don't understand irc yet
<PotentialUser-42>maybe that paste is better
<NieDzejkob>remove the ) after operating-system
<NieDzejkob>it's supposed to end only after all the fields are specified
<PotentialUser-42>that's the only problem you see?
<NieDzejkob>I'm only a human :)
<PotentialUser-42>I'm just stressed out. I will breathe now
<PotentialUser-42>I just pasted the error
<PotentialUser-42>something about an unbound variable having to do with my IP
<NieDzejkob>it seems that whatever editor you used inserted "smart" quotes
<PotentialUser-42>I wonder if I should put my hostname as English letters?
<NieDzejkob>Unicode Character 'LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK' (U+201C)
<PotentialUser-42>I used
<NieDzejkob>how did you type the quotation mark?
<PotentialUser-42>it should be ' ' instead of " "
<PotentialUser-42>instead of
<NieDzejkob>you used “, it should be "
<NieDzejkob>it's a very subtle difference
<NieDzejkob>they're both one character
<PotentialUser-42>oh yes. now I see
<PotentialUser-42>good eye!!
<PotentialUser-42>I'll try it again
<PotentialUser-42>another error
<NieDzejkob>hmm, what does 'type guix' say?
<PotentialUser-42>my new version with stripped quotes
<NieDzejkob>also did you run 'guix pull' yet
<PotentialUser-42>guix is hashed (/root/.config/guix/current/bin/guix)
<PotentialUser-42>Computing Guix derivation for 'x86_64-linux'...
<PotentialUser-42>That's what it says when I guis pull
<NieDzejkob>hmm, what does 'guix describe' say?
<PotentialUser-42>error: failed to determine origin
<PotentialUser-42>guix describe: error: failed to determine origin
<PotentialUser-42>hint: Perhaps this `guix' command was not obtained with `guix pull'? Its version string
<PotentialUser-42>is 1.1.0.
<PotentialUser-42>describe: error: failed to determine origin
<PotentialUser-42>hint: Perhaps this `guix' command was not obtained with `guix pull'? Its version string
<PotentialUser-42>is 1.1.0.
<PotentialUser-42>that's what describe says
<NieDzejkob>how about /root/.config/guix/current/bin/guix describe
<PotentialUser-42>well, the tutorial worked until I got to the configure part
<PotentialUser-42>describe: error: failed to determine origin
<PotentialUser-42>hint: Perhaps this `guix' command was not obtained with `guix pull'? Its version string
<PotentialUser-42>is 1.1.0.
<NieDzejkob>how is that even possible
<PotentialUser-42>how is what possible?
<PotentialUser-42>I'm staging the install from a Debian vm on linode
<NieDzejkob>so basically, 'guix pull' created a guix that thinks it doesn't come from guix pull
<NieDzejkob>and somehow it's also much older, such that it doesn't have the openssh-sans-x variable
<PotentialUser-42>can I add one?
<PotentialUser-42>an opens-sans-x variable?
<PotentialUser-42>Computing Guix derivation for 'x86_64-linux'...
<PotentialUser-42>it stalls there
<NieDzejkob>it takes a while. Did you let it finish?
<PotentialUser-42>I should wait?
<PotentialUser-42>will do
<NieDzejkob>don't you feel that you should mention things like "I had to interrupt it"?
<PotentialUser-42>I do
<PotentialUser-42>I'm sorry
<PotentialUser-42>to waste the time
<NieDzejkob>sorry, it's a bit late over here, I'm a bit cranky
<PotentialUser-42>the wheel is still turning on the terminal so I guess that is good
<PotentialUser-42>the backslash wheel animation
<PotentialUser-42>I am a beginner
<PotentialUser-42>now it is doing stuff
<PotentialUser-42>it is succeeding
<PotentialUser-42>yes I see it takes time now
<PotentialUser-42>I thought it had frozen
<PotentialUser-42>now I know to say "it was interrupted"
<PotentialUser-42>the substitutes are succeeding!
<PotentialUser-42>wheel is still turning!
<PotentialUser-42>I appreciate your tolerance and patience
<NieDzejkob>yeah, in linux stuff, when you interrupt a command, it may sometimes have strange consequences
<NieDzejkob>so you should always mention it if you ask for help
<PotentialUser-42>I'm looking forward to trying guix out
<PotentialUser-42>yes I will in the future
<NieDzejkob>also, if you do interrupt it, think of it as failed
<NieDzejkob>so don't go to the next step in the guide ;)
<PotentialUser-42>I see
<PotentialUser-42>the next step is to power down my machine and boot the guis.
<PotentialUser-42>but it is still working
<NieDzejkob>did you run guix system init yet?
<PotentialUser-42>I ran it again
<PotentialUser-42>I did the grub part again
<PotentialUser-42>and then the init
<PotentialUser-42>and now it is working I think
<PotentialUser-42>it's downloading guis packages now
<PotentialUser-42>it keeps saying it cannot change locale (en_US...
<PotentialUser-42>now it is building
<PotentialUser-42>at 5%
<PotentialUser-42>applying grafts
<PotentialUser-42>does all this sound good?
<PotentialUser-42>awesome!! :)
<PotentialUser-42>I want to be free!
<pkill9>where are all these PotentialUser-XX users coming from?
<PotentialUser-42>free gnu!
<PotentialUser-42>they are all me
<PotentialUser-42>coming from the website
<PotentialUser-42>it's so great when the source code isn't hidden!
<pkill9>ah i see
<pkill9>it suggests it in the webclient
<PotentialUser-42>I don't understand irc yet, so I'm using this
<PotentialUser-42>people are using slack so much more
<PotentialUser-42>I like irc though
<PotentialUser-42>I will learn
<PotentialUser-42>then I will be free from slack
<PotentialUser-42>totally liberated
<PotentialUser-42>I've never tried a fully free software. only other linux flavors. but I like SICP and Scheme so much!!
<PotentialUser-42>It's fantastic this OS is made from scheme
<PotentialUser-42>ok it succeeded. now I will power down and boot the guis partition
<PotentialUser-42>sound good?
<PotentialUser-42>I'm in grub
<PotentialUser-42>the guide ends here
<PotentialUser-42>it says to login
<PotentialUser-42>but I am in grub prompt
<PotentialUser-42>it asks me which bistro to choose
<PotentialUser-42>gnu linux
<PotentialUser-42>gnu linux debian is all that is there
<PotentialUser-42>variable 'prefix' isn't set
<PotentialUser-42>I'm stuck k
<PotentialUser-42>oh well
<PotentialUser-42>I wonder if my boot loader should be sdb or sdc
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<leoprikler>I think you can use UUIDs for the bootloader
<kmicu>Hi folks, does Guix patch its BootHole?
<dannym>bricewge: Hello. Are you there?
<alextee[m]>is our wine usable?
<roelj>I'm using "guix pack --profile-name=package-name-0.0.4 --format=docker ..." and it teels me "guix pack: error: package-name-0.0.4: unsupported profile name". What makes a profile "unsupported"?
<nckx>Morning Guix.
<nckx>roelj: --profile-name= must be either ‘current-guix’ or ‘guix-profile’, i.e. refer to an *existing* profile. Although the list is hard-coded, not actually based on directory existence.
<nckx>alextee[m]: Do you have problems?
<alextee[m]>nckx: i remember having some, reinstalling wine now
<nckx>kmicu: Guix does not do ‘secure’ boot. Nobody's rushing to add it either.
<bhartrihari>Hello, is there any un/official package for Tor Browser? Has anybody got it to work on Guix?
<mroh>trying to fix current docker (go-sctp) breakage on master and realize that docker is a mess ;)
<nckx>It's no Guix.
<nckx>☝ they are free to use this slogan.
<kmicu>So are only related to SecureBoot so Guix doesn’t need to pay attention to BootHole?
<kmicu>If I’m using Guix System there’s no hole in my boot? Is that correct assesment?
<nckx>Meh. Guix boots the way computers have always booted before ‘secure’ boot was introduced, we haven't jumped onto the ‘but now that's evil!’ bandwagon. Guix doesn't sign anything, so there's no signature check to be circumvented.
<leoprikler>SecureBoot can't be broken if you boot "insecurely" 😉️
<nckx>There are no restrictions to circumvent.
<nckx>I was trying very hard to avoid marketing propaganda, Leo 😛
<roelj>nckx: Ah thanks.
<bhartrihari>Hello, is there any un/official package for Tor Browser? Has anybody got it to work on Guix?
<leoprikler>Right, should have called it "restricted boot"
<nckx>It's okay to have an iris scanner at your door (I guess), it's OK to point out gaping hol^Wflaws in existing iris scanners, but suddenly calling houses without builder-mandated iris scanners ‘insecure’ is something I feel uneasy about.
<leoprikler>bhartrihari: tor-browser is currently not yet there, but have a look at 42380
<leoprikler>Your iris scanner is only really secure if it uses Facebook's patented security solutions, that surely don't do anything evil 🙃️
<kmicu>“The infosec community will tell you that Secure Boot has been broken for 10 years, and yet nobody cared” so it looks like my boot is safe afterall.
<nckx>And just happen to film the street as part of a drone network of your neighbours' doorb^Wscanners uploading everything to the cloud.
<nckx>Oh right, that exists.
<nckx>kmicu: Basically. The freedom zealotry community (proud member) will tell you that, in theory, secure/restricted boot is fine if users can easily add and remove keys. In practice, Linux distributions are forced to ship a MS-signed ‘shim’ to boot out of the box, and vendor firmware is buggy in just such a way (what an odd coincidence) that you can't remove their or MS's key.
<leoprikler>kmicu: Well, not entirely "safe", but about as safe as any other boot
*nckx takes off tinfoil hat, puts tasty burrito in it, eats tasty burrito.
<leoprikler>nckx: that's a feature
*nckx needs to go AFK, you're all lucky 😉
<janneke>hello Guix!
<alextee[m]>er how do you check the files of a package again?
<rovanion>I have an issue where IceCat is unable to resolve domain names after reconnecting to WiFi, any ideas on how to debug or gather info for a bug report? And should that bug report go to IceCat or Guix?
<janneke>alextee[m]: possibly do: find $(guix build <package>)
<alextee[m]>also, do we have a mingw GCC compmiler?
<alextee[m]>oh thanks! janneke:
<alextee[m]>mingw-w64-x86_64 doesn't have anything under "bin" there
<raghavgururajan>Hello Guix!
<raghavgururajan>Is it necessary to escape brackets inside description?
<raghavgururajan>Like (description "Everything has gone (really) foo bar.")
<raghavgururajan>Should I do (description "Everything has gone \\(really\\) foo bar.")
<jlicht>hey guix!
<jlicht>rovanion: does `sudo herd invalidate nscd hosts' help?
<janneke>alextee[m]: yes, try guix build --target=i686-w64-mingw32 hello
<janneke>hmm, after a guix pull, i get "guix environment: error: Unbound variable: ~S"
<janneke>any ideas?
<alextee[m]>ah like that :/
<alextee[m]>this package needs to run mingw GCC and then normal GCC
<pkill9>no it's not necessary raghavgururajan
<alextee[m]>it's creating bridges for windows binaries -> gnu/linux
<alextee[m]>so first it uses mingw to build the windows stuff and then normal gcc to build the bridges
<pkill9>only double-quotation marks need to be escaped, e.g. \"
<pkill9>everything else is fine
<alextee[m]>i guess it's impossible to package this
<janneke>alextee[m]: that's usually done using something like ./configure "CC=i686-w64-mingw32-gcc" "CC_FOR_BUILD=gcc"
<alextee[m]>there's no configure script though janneke:
<alextee[m]>and i dont see CC_FOR_BUILD in the makefiles
<rovanion>jlicht: I'll check!
<janneke>yeah, but i'm also talking "conceptually"
<janneke>many softwares do not support cross-building very well, if at all
<alextee[m]>janneke: which package is i686-w64-mingw32-gcc in btw? i'm looking for that binary
<alextee[m]>i thought the x86_64 version was in the mingw-w64-x86_64 package but it's not there
<janneke>alextee[m]: we don't have that in a regular package (yet)
<raghavgururajan>pkill9, Thanks!
<alextee[m]>ah i see
<janneke>alextee[m]: i've been using something like to setup a development environment (guix environment does not have --target support (yet))
<alextee[m]>this looks complicated o.o
<NieDzejkob>rovanion: does sudo herd restart nscd fix it?
<NieDzejkob>ah, I should've read the backlog entirely first -_-
<janneke>hmm, guix pull seems OK now, sorry for the noise
<Kimapr>kmscon doesn't work for me with DRM. Is there a way to disable it using kmscon-service-type (and kmscon-configuration)?
<jlicht>NieDzejkob: great minds? ;)
<rovanion>NieDzejkob, jlicht: It seems to have worked permanently, even after suspending and resuming again. I will suspend the machine for a couple of days and see if it still works when I return.
<rovanion>It could also be that the machine wasn't suspended long enough to trigger the bug.
<rovanion>Which is why I'll try the longer suspend.
<jlicht>rovanion: I just have the nscd cache invalidate snippet bound under a hotkey, as my guix is extremely enthusiastic in caching negative lookups
<str1ngs>janneke: hello, just a FYI I'm gearing up for a new nomad release. The new release supports emacys windows and now uses gobject introspection almost exclusively. Also in regards to emacsy it has a better looking modeline and echo input area
<janneke>str1ngs: very nice, looking forward to that!
<str1ngs>janneke: regards to emacsy windows it only handles full windows. splitting is quite the problem to handle with webkit as you probably know.
<janneke>ah, right
<str1ngs>I also added frame support but only in the context of nomad right now,. not emacsy I'm going to try and back port that eventually to emacsy
<str1ngs>once is reviewed, you can try it out with guix environment --ad-hoc nomad -- nomad
<Jacob_>Hi. I'm having a difficulty installing my custom package. I've added (setenv "GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH" "/my-path/to-package-modules/:$GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH") to the top of my manifest file, but I'm getting an unknown package error. My question is: is exporting GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH variable in my .bash_profile the only way to get this work?
<bavier[m]1>which "manifest" file?
<Jacob_>bavier[m]1: The one that stores a collection of packages I want to be "installed" to my local guix profile
<str1ngs>Jacob_ normally I export GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH in ~/.bashrc or ~/.bash_profile
<apteryx>hello! Is there a way to configure VLANs at the operating system definition level?
<bavier[m]1>Jacob_: the manifest is loaded at a point where, I think, setting something like GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH cannot affect the packages known to guix
<bavier[m]1>so setting it in the environment is better
<pkill9>str1ngs: does nomad do window management? Or is it still just a browser?
<str1ngs>pkill9: it does handle window management. though it's not complete ie. it cant split windows. you can though have multiple emacs like frames open with different buffers activated.
<str1ngs>pkill9: splitting webkitgtk controls is not easy. only one instance is visible at a time.
<str1ngs>pkill9: also nomad supports more buffer then just <web-buffer> it can handle <text-buffer> and also <terminal>
<hendursaga>I can replace git with git-minimal and be fine? Since Guix depends on so many Git-related things. Do I do a 'guix install git-minimal' and then 'guix remove git' ?
<bavier[m]1>hendursaga: you can also do a single transaction with 'guix package -i git-minimal -r git'
<str1ngs>pkill9: probably eventually I'll improve the window management support so that you can split windows. just you won't be able to view the same buffer twice. if that makes sense. that's the easiest solution for now.
<janneke>right...small steps
<str1ngs>no web browser that I now of can split web views. :P
<pkill9>can it open any kind of windows?
<str1ngs>though in nomad you can use ibuffer to list buffers and switch think single window model
<str1ngs>pkill9: nomad uses emacs terms. so a window is not a application window but a split. and application windows are called frames. nomad does handle bot emacs like windows and frames.
<str1ngs>janneke: though i have though of using a forest of webkit controls to handle splitting. but that really makes thing extremely complicated.
<c4droid>Hi, I just installed dwm and st on my guix system, someone know where stored dwm and st's config.h and config.def.h?
<hendursaga>bavier[m]1: Cool tip, thanks.
<pkill9>c4droid: you'll need the source, run `guix build -S st` to get it
<pkill9>c4droid: you'll need to write a package definition that patches those files with configuration as you want it
<c4droid>pkill9: Thanks. I'll going to download the source
<Jacob_>bavier[m]1: Thanks for help. I'm going back to the drawing board then
<NieDzejkob>I'm packaging zxtune, it has a multitude of audio output backends. Is a specific one (like alsa or pulseaudio) preferred, or should I enable all of them?
<guixy>NieDzejkob, If you enable all of them and run guix size, what is its total output?
<NieDzejkob>guixy: guix size pulseaudio alsa-lib -> 180MB, guix size alsa-lib -> 73 MB
<NieDzejkob>there's also OSS, but it only uses libc
<mbakke>apteryx: there is no built-in support for VLANs, but you could write declarative iproute or openvswitch wrappers as outlined here:
<mbakke>apteryx: should we ignore the inkscape update for now due to the aarch64 issues?
*mbakke still mourns the OSS deprecation in Linux
<mbakke>how different the world would be if OSS had not (temporarily) gone proprietary
<mbakke>no ALSA, no Pulseaudio
<guixy>NieDzejkob, I think it's worth enabling all of them if possible.
<NieDzejkob>I'm reading up on audio history on Linux, did OSS support mixing (i.e. multiple programs outputting audio at once?)
<mbakke>NieDzejkob: I think so (at least on FreeBSD according to Wikipedia).
<mbakke>if it didn't back then, it definitely would now without such hacks as PulseAudio :-)
<nckx>God damn you all to heck. You tricked me into reading audiophile.
<nckx>‘In my opinion that antialiasing makes sound be feminine while OSS corresponds to the northern and viking like school with crisp highs. Thus for me alsa = jewish school of audio engineering, oss = indoeuropean school. By the way in jewish culture mother dominates over father. Interesing coincidence.‘
<nckx>I demand some form of compensation.
<nckx>Isn't PA the default for new Guix System users?
*mbakke has high hopes for Pipewire
<mbakke>nckx: by the way, I cheated a bit and picked your git update to master :P
<nckx>Oh, I noticed.
<nckx>I'm sure you have your sinister indoeuropean reasons.
<nckx>(Did something else trigger a basically-rebuild?)
<mbakke>it's probably futile, but I don't want git to become a 'staging' package; currently we have a ~60 rebuilds buffer...
<tissevert>good evening Guix
<mbakke>'evening tissevert
<nckx>o/ tissevert.
<tissevert>nckx: \o
<apteryx>mbakke: I guess so :-/. Although it seems lib2geom has a new maintainer which is showing some activity, so hopefully they will get interested in fixing that issue.
<apteryx>mbakke: I'm curious though, if Inkscape built with its bundled lib2geom dependency could actually run on aarch64; if it does perhaps we're doing something wrong with our lib2geom package.
<apteryx>(I haven't tried)
<NieDzejkob>huh, git triggers more rebuilds than git-minimal. Interesting, it's usually the other way around
<NieDzejkob>my guix refresh says 330 rebuilds, is the threshold at 400 now?
<nckx>NieDzejkob: git-minimal inherits from git, which is less common. Staging is still 300 AFAIK.
<nckx>Ah, I'd missed mbakke's response. I don't get the ‘become’/‘buffer’ part either.
<apteryx>mbakke: thanks for the tip about VLANs, I had the iproute idea but my Guix services skill is always on the rusty side so the blog link will help greatly.
<mbakke>nckx, NieDzejkob: on current 'master', git (and git-minimal) has 240 dependent packages :-)
<mbakke>where those 90 extra rebuilds went is left as an exercise for the reader...
<NieDzejkob>how are you counting?
<mbakke>NieDzejkob: ./pre-inst-env guix refresh -l git git-minimal
<mbakke>Building the following 105 packages would ensure 240 dependent packages are rebuilt: ...
*nckx pulls.
*nckx reads.
*nckx smiles. Nice.
<nckx>But then it wasn't cheating.
<nckx>Please, cheat more if this is how you do it.
<mbakke>heheh :-)
<NieDzejkob>I'm surprised there were useless inputs like these
<mbakke>maybe they weren't at some point, I notice some other distros also try to avoid needlessly adding git to the build dependencies
<nckx>Some packagers add inputs that the build system mutters about but don't actually affect the build.
<nckx>But yeah, so many.
<nckx>mbakke: How did you detect these?
<PotentialUser-31>Hi everyone!
<PotentialUser-31>Is anyone here?
<kmicu>Sander wrote a comprehensive comparision with Docker which by definition also applies to Guix
<nckx>PotentialUser-31: Yes. Hullo!
<kmicu>(Handy for folks saying Guix is like Docker.)
<PotentialUser-31>I am a current/former archlinux/pacman user, but today morning I installed Guix
<PotentialUser-31>Its very interesting
<kmicu>You are not alone PotentialUser-31 there’s plenty of those here (includingme).
<PotentialUser-31>I've heard a lot about Nix and I love scheme/lisp so I wanted to try it out
<PotentialUser-31>I think the whole declarative configuration part is quite genius
*kmicu still remembers constantly fixing xmobar with custom habs setup after a periodical pacman -syolo.
<PotentialUser-31>My one problem is that the package repositories are so slow
<PotentialUser-31>I wish there was better infrastructure to gnu's system
<kmicu>Guix infra is quick as Flash.
<PotentialUser-31>It took me 30 minutes just for a 'guix pull'
<PotentialUser-31>what is guix infra?
<kmicu>Build farms idle cuz they are so fast.
*nckx snort.
*kmicu paste [gotta go fast lizard meme]
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<kmicu>PotentialUser-31: 30 minutes for guix pull…? That could be a network issue.
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<PotentialUser-31>pacman did it in a few seconds
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<PotentialUser-31>Installing git on pacman and nix was quite instantaneous
<PotentialUser-31>but for guix it took several minutes
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<kmicu>pacman will be always faster because it’s mutable, less work to do when we can overwrite (aka break) a working setup. 😺'
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<PotentialUser-31>maybe its because my system is new and requires several dependencies, but still I was getting <1mBps while on pacman I regularly get 20-30 mBps
<PotentialUser-31>@kimcu, thats fair
<PotentialUser-31>I guess
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<PotentialUser-31>I don't know if that an excuse for slow download times tho :p
<PotentialUser-31>are there other mirrors?
<nckx>It's very unlikely that GNU systems were to blame, unless you spent minutes actually downloading from the Savannah git repository. That's the only part of ‘guix pull’ that they handle. All the rest is Guix hardware (downloading substitutes) and your hardware (building the new guix, which can take quite a while).
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<kmicu>It’s possible you live next door to a Arch CDN.
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<PotentialUser-31>can I get some clarification on how guix works?
<nckx>apteryx: You there?
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<PotentialUser-31>so essentially does guix pull redownload all the guix expressions?
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<PotentialUser-31>which are guile files containing the build information?
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<mbakke>nckx: I painstakingly went through each package with a git input, ripped it out, and checked what happened :/
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<mbakke>the OPAM test suite detour made it worth it though
<nckx>ChanServ why you no akick.
<rndd>hi everyone! trying to pull guix from local directory. where i can take openpgp key for introduction?
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<PotentialUser-31>is anyone else getting spam?
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<nckx>PotentialUser-31: Sorry about that. It's a regular user (maintainer even) whose client/bouncer has gone mad.
<NieDzejkob>rndd: you can have a channel without an introduction, if that's what you're asking
<NieDzejkob>nckx: maybe we should shoot them a mail?
<nckx>Already on it.
<PotentialUser-31>This irc is quite more active than I expected!
<PotentialUser-31>especially for such a small community
<mbakke>rndd: you can use (channel (inherit (find guix-channel? %default-channels) ...) in your channels.scm to inherit the canonical introduction
<mbakke>eh, missed a paren after %default-channels
<rndd>mbakke: got error "extraneous field initializers (inherit)"
<PotentialUser-31>is there any hekpful reading material to `grok' guix?
<nefix>is there any reason why Telegram Desktop is not packaged? (licenses or something like that)
<bavier[m]1>PotentialUser-31: the manual is quite good
<NieDzejkob>nefix: I think it's just hard to package
<PotentialUser-31>the info one right?
<NieDzejkob>it's still on the wishlist...
<nefix>NieDzejkob: nice! (and not nice :( )
<nefix>same with vscodium :/
<nckx>If you need a client and need one now, we have emacs-telega. I'm sure it's a vastly different user experience but it works.
<bavier[m]1>nefix: it might just be that noone's tried
<nefix>I'll try porting the Nix declaration, let's see if I succeed
<bavier[m]1>there might be a few dependencies that need to be packaged to
<nefix>Both telegram and vscodium are the two packages that make me not being able to fully switch to Guix
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<nckx> at least but there's nothing that looks too hard. I'd try, nefix, help is always available.
<nefix>Let's try then! :D
<bavier[m]1>agreed, give it a go, and we can always help if you need
<nckx>I've never heard of viscodium.
<nckx>*vs, and aha: ‘Visual Studio Code is a source-code editor developed by Microsoft for Windows, Linux and macOS.’
<nefix>vscodium is vscode without the microsoft stuff
<rndd>NieDzejkob: how i can do it with no auth?
<Formbi>telega is very nice
<Formbi>much nicer than the electron shits such as discord
<nefix>I don't use Emacs
<Formbi>and probably telegram itself
<Formbi>you're missing out :P
<nckx>That vscodium isn't packaged is no surprise: it manages to require both electron (=Chrome) and at least some NPM stuff (=hardish to package).
<nefix>I failed miserably like half year ago (and even with Spacemacs)
<nefix>nckx: yeah, I figured out
<Formbi>also you can install some things thru flatpak
<jotaru>is electron free?
<mbakke>rndd: the channels.scm should look something like this:
<jotaru>and aren't there free versions of chrome?
<Formbi>but kinda shaky technology-wise, I imagine
<bavier[m]1>free, but I'd imagine we'd want something based on our ungoogled-chromium instead
<Formbi>ungoogled-electron UwU
<jotaru>yeah thats what I had in mind ::p
<nckx>Are there free eversions of Electron?
<jotaru>does guix package free software that isn't gpl?
<nckx>We do honour the .
<Formbi>>Electron avoids most Google-related parts of Chromium by virtue of not using most of the //chrome directory.
<rndd>mbakke: still have same error
*nckx .oO but it's not in Debian so really
<jotaru>what sort of network speeds do you all normally get with the savannah mirror?
<nckx>jotaru: Do you mean
<nckx>Let me see.
<bavier[m]1>savannah git repo?
<jotaru>like the package repository
<bavier[m]1>it's usually fast enough that I don't notice
<mbakke>rnddcan you paste the channels.scm? the example I pasted works for me.
<mbakke>rndd: ^
<jotaru>alright in that case something is wrong with my network :p
<jotaru>because for me its very noticable
<nckx>Of course now it's slowish here but I'm on shite wi-fi, I'll try elsewhere.
<nefix>jotaru: for me it's not the network but the disk speed (I'm running Guix in a USB stick :P)
<jotaru>I get 100% packet loss when I ping for some reason
<jotaru>very weird
<mbakke>jotaru: are you in a VM? ping does not work through Qemu (by default)
<nckx>jotaru: Are you in a Qemu VM?
<jotaru>but on my mac it pings
<nckx>Or a firewalled network?
<jotaru>no im on hardware
<jotaru>could be some firewall problems, but idk why one computer would work while the other doesn't on the same network
<jotaru>I just pinged for 2 minuted to 94% packet loss
<nckx>I get several MiB/s pulling from Savannah.
<jotaru>very interesting
<mbakke>rndd: ah, the (inherit ...) statement must be the very first entry
<jotaru>On my mac I get only 3% packet loss
<rndd>mbakke: well, now i have "guix pull: error: Git error: cannot locate remote-tracking branch 'origin/keyring'"
<jotaru>I must have offended Dr Richard Stallman somehow
<jotaru>its like my computer has been personally blocked from achieving a proper ping >;(
<mbakke>rndd: yes, you need to checkout the keyring branch in your guix clone :/
<nckx>jotaru: Is that only for (and friends)?
<nckx>E.g., try, which is on a different continent.
<nckx>Just as a test.
<nckx>I fail to lose even a single packet ☹ rms must love me too much.
<jotaru> is 0% packet retention
<jotaru>maybe dns?
<jotaru>wait let me try good
<nckx>Nah, DNS is a one time IP look-up.
<jotaru>0% loss on
<rndd>mbakke: well, ye
<jotaru>this is crazy
<rndd>mbakke: what is the ideo of keyring branch?
<nckx>jotaru: mtr is in Guix, might give you a hint.
<nckx>jotaru: was my bad. I forget (not for the first time) that it blocks ICMP completely.
<nckx>Ping is not a great diagnostic tool, part n.
<jotaru>that makes so mcuh more sense
<jotaru>yeah good point
<rndd>mbakke: anyway, thank you
<nckx>s/a/the/ to prevent flaming. 🙂
<jotaru>yeah so I just did a guix pull and its giving me about 22Kib download speed
<nckx>jotaru: For what, exactly?
<jotaru>`guix pull'
<nckx>Pasting the entire terminal output to is fine.
<jotaru>downloading modules
<nckx>I mean what's it downloading.
<nckx>OK. Those are downloaded from, not
<nckx>GNU is not to blame.
<jotaru>ok ok
<nckx>We are!
<jotaru>(so rms isn't hating on me then :D)
<nckx>We don't just block your pings, we pinch your pipe.
<jotaru>is there anything I can do about it?
<nckx>I thought this was fixed long ago.
<jotaru>what was fixed?
<nckx>jotaru: Long story short the server had a bad NIC, so everything was moved over to a new machine with a better one.
<jotaru>oh hmmm
<jotaru>is there only 1 server containing all the guix expressions
<nckx>jotaru: Could you paste a URL that was slow? Ideally a nice big file.
<mbakke>rndd: I'm not sure why they keyring branch is separate, I suppose it adds a little flexibility/separation of concerns
<nckx>jotaru: No, these build products, the result of the expressions (Scheme source code at
<nckx>*these are
<jotaru>ohh ok yeah makes sense
<nckx> builds them all and serves them as binary substitutes.
<jotaru>im not used to a source based/binary based distro so im still getting used to the terminology and stuff
<nckx>(For background info search those two last words in the manual.)
<jotaru>ok I will
<jotaru>I def have some manual reading to do
<jotaru>which URL did u want pasted?
<jotaru>do you want me to just pastebin the output of guix pull?
<nckx> or another Tor-friendly pastebin, please, so not
*nckx → AFK for dinner now.
<jotaru>also, in case it matters, I am not yet running the full GuixSD distro, I am using the Guix package manager on top of pacman. If that is not supported here, sorry for the troubles...
<jotaru>I wanted to experience the package management powers first before moving into fully declarative systems configuration, etc. etc.
<mbakke>jotaru: guix supports any reasonably modern GNU/Linux distro :-)
<mbakke>jotaru: some of those speeds are pretty good, and others are super slow, weird
<jotaru>yeah idk
<jotaru>it might be location too
<lfam>Could somebody using an Intel Skylake platform try using our Blender package? For me it crashes when trying to add a video clip
<mbakke>where are you located?
<jotaru>Im in central US
<nckx>…like many things, dinner needs a few more minutes in the oven 🙂 jotaru: That's fully supported! And it shouldn't affect your download speed at all (barring exotic stuff like ‘Arch's Wi-Fi driver has a bug’, which I doubt). Something happens between g.g.o and your machine: here, downloads at 4 MiB/s. On my server, at 28…
<nckx>jotaru: Could you try manually downloading it with e.g., curl >/dev/null
<nckx>to see if it's deterministically slow.
<jotaru>ok sure
*nckx ← food now really.
<lfam>It's slower than 100 kbps for me in eastern US
<PotentialUser-84>hello! I'm new to IRC in general, so please let me know if I'm breaking some kind of conduct. If anyone has sometime, I have a question about system installation(3), specifically about UEFI mounting
<jotaru>when I manually download about 260 Kib speed
<jotaru>oh wait nvm average speed is 160 Kib
<lfam>PotentialUser-84: Please ask your question :) If anybody knows the answer they will help you
<PotentialUser-84>thanks! So in the documentation (, it has the user set up file systems to prepare for mount. When it's discussing the efi mount point, it says: "if you have opted for /boot/efi as an EFI mount point, mount it at /mnt/boot/efi" ... my question is, should the command then be: "mount /dev/sda1 /boot/efi" or "mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/boot/efi" ...
<PotentialUser-84>or am I misunderstanding the mount process
<NieDzejkob>the latter.
<kmicu>Hi PotentialUser-84: during the installation process we use /mnt/boot/efi and after installation that will turn into /boot/efi.
<PotentialUser-84>gotcha, and it is normal to have to mkdir both /mnt/boot and /mnt/boot/efi right?
<kmicu>Iirc graphical installer should do the right thing so you could use that for an effortless installation.
<PotentialUser-84>unfortunately it fails when attempting to partition in graphical, no idea why, doesn't throw any codes, just reboots from the
<kmicu>If you find time you could share your partitioning scheme. Maybe there’s a workaround.
<PotentialUser-84>will do, I'm going to try the manual installer one more time with the second option first just to make sure something else was wrong. I tried that option yesterday, and was given a successful install message from the guix init, but when I rebooted, it just cycled the intel boot manager
<nckx>jotaru: Ouch. Said server's in Germany (as is, I'm not much further, but 28M to 160K is a big drop just to cross one little ocean…
<nefix>how am I supposed to clone a git repo with submodules? I tried to add (recursive? #t) but it doesn't seem to do anything :/
<nckx>nefix: Did you change the hash?
<nefix>nckx: nope, but it doesn't complain
<nckx>It won't, since the hash is the primary identifier and it has something that matches.
<nckx>Change a character (not the first one) & try again.
<nefix>yep, that worked. Does something like Nix's lib.fakeSha256 exist? It's basically a string with zeroes with the correct length that is really useful
<mfg>Hi :)
<nckx>nefix: I just use emacs' Esc-52 0 to create 52 zeroes.
<nckx>I'm not aware of anything like that.
<nefix>hmmm, I see
<mfg>Does usb redirection in QEMU need my user to have a specific group membership? i always get permission denied when i try to redirect a usb device ...
<nckx>Hi mfg.
<nefix>I could create something like that for vim... but it would be really useful!
<nckx>mfg: apteryx (Maxim Cournoyer) had a suspiciously similar problem with Gnome Boxes! Unfortunately, they're currently banned.
***nckx sets mode: -b apteryx!*@*
***nckx sets mode: -b Guest*!*@*
***nckx sets mode: -b Guest!*@*
<mfg>nckx: i have never heard of gnome boxes before :D
<mfg>WHat exactly does "banned" mean?
<nckx>I've unbanned them, they didn't actually do anything wrong 🙂 Banned means not allowed to join the channel. Usually reserved for spammers & trolls but apteryx's weechat was misconfigured in a way that spammed the channel with joins/parts.
<mfg>Ah that kind of ban, i thought it was banned to talk about gnome boxes :DD
<nckx>mfg: Gnome Boxes is a nice if extremely simplified graphical interface to qemu. Similar to VBox's GUI.
<msavoritias[m]>I was wondering. How is having flatpak in guix okay by the FDG standards?
<msavoritias[m]>it basically is an easy way to install proprietary software
<msavoritias[m]>isn't that prohibited?
<nckx>You can run whatever you want on your machine.
<nckx>That's the point of all this freedom!
<Formbi>flatpak itself is free
<bavier[m]1>bundling a software store full of proprietary flatpaks might be a problem
<msavoritias[m]>yeah but the FDG says not to promote or have an easy way to install proprietary software
<msavoritias[m]>that is why debian is not part of it
<msavoritias[m]>the FDG i mean
<nckx>Debian doesn't abide by the FSDG, but the DFSG (confusing I know).
<msavoritias[m]>ah sorry 😛 it was FSDG
<msavoritias[m]><Formbi "flatpak itself is free"> yeah it is. but having it on guix allows the users to install proprietary software the easy way
<nckx>‘not … have an easy way to install proprietary software’ I don't think that's true.
<nckx>The FSDG asks us not to promote it.
<Formbi>having a keyboard also makes things easy
<nckx>E.g. make a list of cool prop progs with a one-click install button.
<msavoritias[m]>hmm. i guess you could say guix doesn't give you any recipes. so its not promoting
<Formbi>should people remove keyboard drivers from linux-libre?
<msavoritias[m]><nckx "E.g. make a list of cool prop pr"> yeah. got it
<msavoritias[m]><Formbi "should people remove keyboard dr"> okay. i see the difference. we don't promote anything. exactly like have the ability to add channels in guix
<kmicu>IceCat let us download and install proprietary software but that is not steering into blobs.
<nckx>And we take that pretty seriously, for example our IceCat and a certain game emulator whose name I forget go through quite some trouble to remove add-on shoppes that put proprietary software in your face.
<kmicu>(same with Wine or Docker)
<bandali>i think the same point about a distro's package repositories (e.g. trisquel's vs debian's or arch's) should apply to flatpack etc
<nckx>bandali: What do you mean?
<kmicu>The point of FSDG it to not steer us into blobs; not prevent us from reaching them if we want to be naugty.
<bandali>since distributors of flatpack, snap, etc clearly do not care about preserving freedom of their users, we should make steps to not have them easily exposed to nonfree software
<bandali>nckx, ^
<nckx>‘steps’ like?
<kmicu>IceCat easily exposes me to blobs because it allows me browsing Internet.
<bandali>not packaging flatpack, imho
<msavoritias[m]><nckx "And we take that pretty seriousl"> yeah. good point
<nckx>bandali: Flatpak is just an executable format.
<msavoritias[m]><kmicu "IceCat easily exposes me to blob"> if you have it with librejs on it doesnt
<nckx>As much as I dislike it, it's as free or nonfree as ELF.
<bandali>nckx, isn't there a client/application associated with it?
<msavoritias[m]>but then again nothing works with librejs on
<kmicu>msavoritias[m]: librejs only prevents loading proprietary js, it will not prevent me from downloading blobs, browsing them, searching them, and so on.
<nckx>bandali: I don't know, but then we patch/omit that.
<bandali>that by default fetches "packages" from a store that contains nonfree software?
<nckx>Does it?
<bandali>i'm not familiar much with it either, but i'm talking about flathub
<msavoritias[m]>there is no default store in flatpak as far as i know. thats snap
<bandali>and the snap store or whatever they call it
<bandali>i think we should not package a client/app that downloads from these stores by default
<msavoritias[m]><kmicu "msavoritias: librejs only preven"> what blobs do you mean? if it passes through librejs it is floss so not a blob
<nckx>We should just patch it.
<kmicu>Let’s not confuse Docker/Flatpah with centralized stores promoting blobs. We can patch Flatapk/Docker in the same way as we patch Firefox.
<msavoritias[m]><bandali "i think we should not package a "> for snap i agree. its too dependent on proprietary software
<bandali>nckx, or yes, strip out that functionality
<bandali>like how linux-libre strips out modules
<nckx>For me that falls under patching.
<nckx>But this has nothing to do with the FSDG.
<nckx>The FSDG (or any other FSF/GNU policy) doesn't force you anyone to package Flatpak, but it can't be used as a reason not to.
<kmicu>msavoritias[m]: I can use IceCat to download Mass Effect and figure out how to run it on Guix. I can do that thanks to IceCat.
<msavoritias[m]>ah that's what you mean. yeah i agree. can't really stop the user from doing that. only not encourage it
<kmicu>In the same way we have Flatkpak = IceCat and FlatHub = Internet.
<nckx>I wish the FSDG prohibited Chromium, it does not, too bad. I hope someone finds an insurmountable licence problem with it. But so far nobody has. But I can't say Guix is wrong for shipping it.
<pkill9>why do you wish that nckx?
<kmicu>Using Chromium brings power to Google to shape web.
<msavoritias[m]>personally i don't like that google have their hands all over it
<pkill9>hmm yea
<msavoritias[m]>but then i don't really like mozilla either
<msavoritias[m]>plus their browser is not gpl3
<pkill9>the web needs all the bloated websites split off into applications
<lfam>That already happened
<nckx>Chrome is quite openly & unapologetically a project aimed at making the Web proprietary.
<lfam>Mobile apps are way more important that web sites now
<nckx>The ‘AMP’ subset of the Web is already hosted entirely by and on Google.
<pkill9>maybe websites can go back to being leaner then
<kmicu>pkill9: that already exists and it’s called ‘using w3m’ xD
<nckx>That could only happen because of Chrome's market share.
<msavoritias[m]>the web applications experiment failed
<nckx>Same for DRM.
<PotentialUser-84>back again about the UEFI manual system install. If I am setting the mount point for /dev/sda1 to be /mnt/efi/boot, should I also change the bootloader target in the config.scm file?
<kmicu>(or Eww if we want to stay in Emacs)
<msavoritias[m]><pkill9 "the web needs all the bloated we"> or not bloated websites with js frameworks
<pkill9>yea that's all it needs really
<pkill9>just remove all that damn bloat
<msavoritias[m]><kmicu "(or Eww if we want to stay in Em"> but you can't really use anything not text based then
<pkill9>websites like for airlines and hotels and stuff are always so bloated
<kmicu>PotentialUser-84: iirc, yes, you need to switch to EFI there, because traditional grub is default.
<msavoritias[m]>its the same as librejs. kind of cool idea. if you use three websites
<PotentialUser-84>so make the target /boot/efi or /mnt/boot/efi
<kmicu>msavoritias[m]: that’s the point. It splits web on traditional part and modern part.
<msavoritias[m]>but 1 i don't think the traditional part exists. in a meaningful sense to search and find information
<msavoritias[m]>and 2 i do like the websites to dynamic and stuff. but not with the technology and centralization we have now
<msavoritias[m]>i do like zeronet. i should make a guix package for it at some point 🤔
<kmicu>PotentialUser-84: /boot/efi is what installer sees after mounting so /boot/efi
<PotentialUser-84>will do
<kmicu>msavoritias[m]: I rarely need to switch to IceCat so that part exists but granted, I don’t use much of modern Internet besides banking apps.
<mfg>nckx: the reason for this error is that /dev/bus/usb/<bus>/<addr> belogns to root:root manually changing ownership solves it. maybe there is a way to automatically set this with a udev rule?
<kmicu>(Many modern webapps provide an api so e.g. I can use SoundC***d via Emacs plugin no need for a browser at all.)
<pkill9>i like the idea rebol did
<pkill9>like a web browser but of applications
<pkill9>javascript was inspired by rebol i think
<pkill9>small programs as small as a light webpage, written in a lisp kind of language i think, designed for making domain-specific languages
<pkill9>and you call them using a URL
<mfg>kmicu: that's nice where do i find that plugin?
<kmicu>mfg: there are many; I’m using (it’s EMMS).
<msavoritias[m]><pkill9 "and you call them using a URL"> that a very interesting. maybe with wasm we achieve something like that
<msavoritias[m]>but we need to rethink the browser too..
<msavoritias[m]><kmicu "(Many modern webapps provide an "> that a very interesting idea actually. I have been meaning to get into emacs anyway. sounds awesome
***ChanServ sets mode: -o nckx
<mfg>kmicu: thanks for this :)
<vivasvat>hi everyone
<vivasvat>im the user from before who was having network connectivity issues from
*kmicu wonders wheter 8119b7c6f7 gnu: rust-1.45: Update to 1.45.1. triggers an IceCat rebuild.
<kmicu>hi vivasvat
<nckx>mfg: Thanks for debugging. Using a udev rule to chgrp it would definitely work. I don't know if its teh best practicez. I'll look around.
<Formbi>pkill9: initially ECMAScript was supposed to be a Scheme :<
<nckx>But Java was hip.
<nckx>Most depressing anecdote.
<Formbi>but ECMAScript isn't even very similar to Java
*kmicu checks if a gopher website about Guix exists.
<Formbi>msavoritias[m]: I think websites should have general interfaces
<nckx>That's the point. Marketing said: Java big $, nerd make thing look like Java! make $.
<Formbi>and different things could connect with said interfaces
<NieDzejkob>kmicu: it doesn't, because the rust variable points to rust-1.39
<Formbi>browser, Emacs, some ncurses thingy etc.
<NieDzejkob>what a weird times those were. Java hippier than Scheme...
<nckx>kmicu: No.
<kmicu>[Jokin’] There are big cybermoney in Guix so I started new project: GuixScript.
<mfg>nckx: np
<msavoritias[m]><Formbi "browser, Emacs, some ncurses thi"> and all of it written in some scheme language
<msavoritias[m]>very interesting
<msavoritias[m]>i would definetily like it. sites are too tied to specific browsers at the moment
<nckx>kmicu: I should say more than that :) The default rust is 1.39, so update others at will.
<msavoritias[m]>its like the web developers learned nothing from the ie days
<kmicu>Thank you NieDzejkob nckx somehow I always forget about defaults.
<vivasvat>Sorry, I had to go do something for awhile, does anyone know the reason that I may getting 160 Kib (vs ;;normal for others;; of 30 Mib) download speed when doing guix pull?
<vivasvat>my bad if it was already answered
<vivasvat>a hint is all I need
<nckx>lfam: Has it always been this slow for you?
<vivasvat>well guix has
<vivasvat>but I got it only for the past 24 hours ish
<nckx>vivasvat: Did you see my message earlier, about the 28M server being in Germany (=500km from ci.guix)? I wouldn't expect that outside of Europe.
<nckx>lf_am has been using Guix for years.
<nckx>I used to have a shell account on the East Coast but it moved to… Germany >_<
<christianbundy>is this the same channel for Guix System?
<nckx>christianbundy: Yes.
<GNUtoo>hi, I've managed to build guix by using ./bootstrap && ./configure && make -j3
<christianbundy>nckx: thanks
<GNUtoo>However ./pre-inst-env guix build <some new package> gives me that:
<GNUtoo>guix build: error: failed to connect to `/usr/local/var/guix/daemon-socket/socket': No such file or directory
<MtotheM>how do you deal with the missmatch between manually installed programs and your config file?
<nckx>GNUtoo: You need to start the daemon (either in the background using & or in a different terminal).
<GNUtoo>ok, I'll try that
<nckx>See Running Guix Before It Is Installed in the manual.
<GNUtoo>oh thanks a lot
<GNUtoo>that'd be easier than with 04-packaging-part-two.webm
<nckx>GNUtoo: Please let us know if anything is missing from or inaccurate in the videos!
<GNUtoo>ok, I'll re-listen to them and report here
<nckx>We try to keep the up to date but it's easy to forget (unlike the manual).
<nckx>Thank you.
<nckx>MtotheM: Do you mean programmes installed using ‘guix install’ and those in provided by your Guix system configuration?
<nckx>Which mismatch is that?
<NieDzejkob>GNUtoo: NO!
<MtotheM>Yes, let's say I want to re-deploy my setup on another system. and a bunch of things aren't included in my config as they have been installed manually. nckx
<NieDzejkob>GNUtoo: you want to pass --localstatedir=/var and use your system's daemon
<NieDzejkob>you'll make a mess of your store otherwise
<nckx>MtotheM: I recommend creating a manifest file and running ‘guix package -m <the file>’. To add/remove a user programme, edit the manifest and run that command again.
<GNUtoo>NieDzejkob: oh ok
*GNUtoo re-compiles with ./configure --localstatedir=/var now
<GNUtoo>thanks a lot
<MtotheM>thanks, i'll have a look nckx
<nckx>NieDzejkob: Thank you.
*GNUtoo doesn't understand well the consequences of not using --localstatedir=/var though
<nckx>GNUtoo: Did you get ‘./configure’ from anywhere? A tutorial or documentation?
<GNUtoo>does it use /var/gnu instead of /gnu
<nckx>GNUtoo: No, /var/guix instead of /usr/local/var/guix.
<nckx>/gnu would be /gnu either way.
<GNUtoo>It did mention --localstatedir=/var in a video I was looking at
<GNUtoo>but I skipped that as I assumed that the default was fine
<nckx>But Guix tracks /gnu/store's state in a database in /var/guix.
<nckx>You like to live dangerously.
*GNUtoo doesn't really understand why I've to tell the guix cloned repository to use my system's guix stuff
<GNUtoo>intuitively these should be separate
<nckx>I have the equally dangerous habit of reading ‘by using ./bootstrap && ./configure && make -j3’ as ‘I did roughly this, y'know, 3 steps’.
<GNUtoo>like ./configure typycally picks /usr/local instead f /usr
<GNUtoo>*instead of
<nckx>So thanks again to NieDzejkob for *checks notes* ‘being able to read’.
<lfam>nckx: I use a private mirror so I don't really notice. I'm sure I've seen it be faster on occasion though
<nckx>GNUtoo: Sigh. I agree. It's because these are standard default locations: the default --localstatedir for all GNU projects is /usr/local/var (=$prefix/var).
<nckx>So that's the reasoning, and it's been discussed before, but it's a risky default.
<nckx>‘./configure typycally picks /usr/local instead f /usr’ because that's also standard.
<GNUtoo>"and it's been discussed before" -> Is there some documentation about that?
<nckx>If tomorrow some ./configure uses /CoolApps/Bob/Documents and Settings as default instead of /usr you'd be annoyed, the same argument applies here, even if the default is bad.
<GNUtoo>So that I don't bother people on IRC and read what has already been discussed instead
<GNUtoo>what I don't understand is that I want to send a patch, so I clone guix and build it in its own directory
<GNUtoo>so I assume it's not supposed to use any of the host sutff when using ./pre-env
<GNUtoo>and I assume it would use different defaults
<GNUtoo>so as I don't understand a thing here, I probably miss some concepts or understanding of how Guix work
<GNUtoo>So I just leanred that there is a database somehwere (which is separate from /gnu)
<GNUtoo>and I know there is a daemon that can spawn builder process
<GNUtoo>And I mostly read the official documentation here and there, and part of the cookbook + saw the videos
<nckx>If you're already using Guix, just configure with the right option and ./pre-inst-env guix will use your already running daemon.
<nckx>Are you?
<GNUtoo>ok, so the idea is to tell the source guix to use the host daemon, I see
<GNUtoo>yes I am
<GNUtoo>So now I assume that all the scm of the source are used thanks to pre-env but that the host daemon and /gnu and all that stuff is still used
<nckx>GNUtoo: Even if you used ./pre-inst-env guix-daemon it would still use /gnu and you'd still want --localstatedir=/var.
<GNUtoo>thanks a lot!
*GNUtoo also looked at ./pre-inst-env
<GNUtoo>now things are more clear
<GNUtoo>Thanks a lot
<nckx>lfam: Ever consider sharing?