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<leoprikler>Actually, looking at it, it appears as if PackageKit does not translate 1:1 to the features of GNOME Software even.
<leoprikler>i.e. there are definitely plugins, that do not go through packagekit
<calher>Oh. I thought PackageKit was the proper way.
<nckx>PackageKit is just another plug-in, which supports its own plug-ins.
<nckx>Non-PK plug-ins actually existing is new, though.
<leoprikler>I'm not sure, but PackageKit might be officially dead.
<calher>I just want a safe way to get it into upstream.
<nckx>Why not just use ‘guix search’ and ‘guix install’ though? Certainly easier.
<leoprikler>Opening an issue in would be one way. Mark it as "Feature" if you will.
<leoprikler>If you have the time to implement it, you might even make it a pull request.
<leoprikler>And while that request is not yet accepted, you can roll it out in your own Guix channel through an origin's patches.
<calher>nckx : Because I like to have a nice shiny desktop like everybody else.
<leoprikler>nckx: Some people are afraid of the command line. Having a graphical tool to help you might improve accessibility.
<calher>nckx People think I'm primitive if they see me using Bash and i3.
<nckx>A desktop without $ guix doesn't sound very shiny to me. But OK. I guess it could make sense on touch devices.
<leoprikler>One does not exclude the other. It's just a preference of what you use.
<nckx>Yes, you should be using zsh and sway with a hacker background.
<calher>nckx Yes, Sway is better
<calher>nckx GNOME has $ guix in Terminal.
<nckx>I should switch to sway. Does Guix run Wayland gud yet?
<nckx>calher: I used GNOME software a year or so ago and it was very hard to use. I'm just surprised someone wants to add Guix support to that, but go for it!
<calher>Ew, the GNOME in Guix is X based ?!
<nckx>My X is X based. I don't know about GNOME.
<calher>nckx I found Software easy to use
<leoprikler>yep, we have GNOME on X. What about it?
<nckx>I guess tastes really do differ.
<calher>GNOME is usually Wayland now.
<leoprikler>Still supports X though.
<leoprikler>Sometimes better than Wayland unfortunately.
<calher>nckx I use GNOME because I want people to not get scared of GNU+Linux and think it's for 1337 h4x0rs
<leoprikler>joke's on them, Linux is for 1337 |-|4x0rs
<calher>nckx Hacker elitism is detrimental to universal user freedom.
<nckx>You sound pretty elitist about GNOME.
<calher>It's the only hope for user freedom for everyone.
<leoprikler>Elitism is detrimental to everything, but there's a difference between being elitist and using your software freedom to make a free choice.
<OriansJ>calher: actually pause one moment to reflect
<OriansJ>leoprikler: pause
<OriansJ>nckx: pause
<leoprikler>If I was into i3/sway/ratpoison, I'd use them.
<nckx>OriansJ: ?
<nckx>You pinged me.
<OriansJ>The idea that there is only one way to is detrimental to our community.
<calher>I use software I can evangelize with. Not my own little pet setup.
<OriansJ>calher: user freedom is about giving users the right to choose for themselves what they want
<OriansJ>Some people feel making a GUI that looks and feels like Windows is what is required (See Mint) or MacOSX
<leoprikler>The reason I use GNOME is purely aesthetical. I like the optics of GNOME. But if I had to introduce Linux to someone who doesn't like header bars, I'd give them Mate or KDE.
<OriansJ>Show people a world of options and let them choose for themselves rather than trying to shove what you think down their throats
<calher>I'm addicted to its workflow
<OriansJ>calher: good
<OriansJ>but don't demand others to feel the same
<nckx>calher: That is your own little pet setup, and that's OK, but don't expect it to be universal.
<OriansJ>Share what you love
<OriansJ>but accept not everyone loves what you do
<OriansJ>encourage freedom
<OriansJ>both in terms of software licenses but also in regards to technical choices
<nckx>I tend to promote GNU to ‘computer beginners’, and making them use something like GNOME will scare them off.
<nckx>Non-geeky power users: GNOME is great.
<nckx>Lots of mystery meat navigation and distracting animations.
<vagrantc>gnome works fine to run a terminal fullscreen, but it's a bit resource-heavy :)
<OriansJ>calher: I know some people who love Windows too much to use gnome but xfce4 works great for them
<alextee>gnome just "gets it" :D
<nckx>People used to phones have usually been trained to make undocumented things swipe from weird places, others not so much.
<alextee>i find it so weird that so few DEs actually understand the "windows" button click
<nckx>GNOME aims unapologetically at the former. And that's fine.
<OriansJ>It is perfectly fine to show people gnome but make sure they know about other options
<sirgazil>In my experience, GNOME is easy to pic for people used to tablets and smartphones.
<calher>GNOME actually has all the advanced Windows features that other desktops except Plasma lack
<sirgazil>vagrantc: It really consumes resources.
<OriansJ>calher: notice we aren't disagreeing with you about the nice features of gnome
<vagrantc>Your Nice Feature Is Not My Nice Feature But Your Nice Feature Is Ok, a.k.a. YNFINMNFBYNFIO
<alextee>gnome + gnome tweaks + breeze icons + matcha theme = welcome to l337 /-/4xx0R land
<nckx>calher: Just realise that not everyone who sees your desktop is thinking ‘pretty’ or ‘shiny’ or ‘friendly’. It's great that you love it though.
<OriansJ>notice the disagreement is about forgetting to listen to each other's perspective from the tellers view
<calher>nckx I'm just trying to set a decent example. Should I give up and use Emacs in a TTY?
<nckx>What are you talking about?
<guix-vits>nckx: in near 8 days old Guix commit the Wayland works good with a kitty (but sudo -i is unusable, due to "doubled echo of chars"), qutebrowser works and IceCat worked. But you may need to move out the i3 configs, as Sway showed itself glitchy with them.
<guix-vits>calher: better x-version of emacs: it can PDF
<nckx>calher: Why would you do that? Who would benefit?
<nckx>Certainly not you.
<calher>When everyone uses totally different programs, there's less help
<leoprikler>calher: Use whatever environment you want to use. Don't let your prejudices of other people force you into a mold.
<nckx>When everyone uses the same, there's no freedom 🙂
<OriansJ>calher: Emacs works fine in gnome's gui
<leoprikler>Can confirm.
<nckx>calher: Don't limit yourself to other people's stereotypes, or your own.
<leoprikler>But it's missing a headerbar :(
<alextee>how about common standards, different programs? calher
<alextee>UNIX, X11, etc
<calher>leoprikler: I want an Emacs with a Gedit UI.
<guix-vits>calher: Try vim ;)
<OriansJ>guix-vits: pause
<leoprikler>Does Gvim have a headerbar?
<calher>guix-vits: gvim follows GNOME 3 HIG?
<sirgazil>Wasn't this conversation about Guix support for GNOME Software :)
<sirgazil>I'd like that!!
<guix-vits>calher: Yes, its interface doesn't stand on the users way. Aren't it follows th HIG better than anything Gnome at all?
<alextee>speaking of gnome, is the screencast shortcut gonna be fixed soon? :/
<calher>sirgazil: Yes, I want to have a full GNOME Guix System!!!
<sirgazil>calher: Me too. Go for it if you can contribute to make it better.
<sirgazil>alextee: I think I reported a bug about that.
<leoprikler>I think reverting gstreamer to 1.16.1 might do the trick here.
<OriansJ>well if I remember correctly raghav-gururajan is the one most familar with GNOME in guix
<leoprikler>Something about 1.16.2 seems to have broken cogl and the screencast thing uses Clutter afaik
<nckx>calher: Go forth and help write a back end! 🙂
<leoprikler>(which depends on cogl)
<guixy>bye guix
<nckx>OriansJ: The most active of late.
<nckx>guixy: o/
<calher>And write AguaMacs (Aquamacs with Gnome hig)
<nckx>Go for it.
<nckx>More software good.
<raghav-gururajan>calher leoprikler nckx OriansJ One of the main advantage I look in GNOME, KDE etc. is the accessbility options.
<OriansJ>calher: I believe that already exists but woulnd't work on guix as we don't have support for the Cocoa API
<calher>Which is why I said aGuamacs
<raghav-gururajan>OriansJ LoL. The main reason I encourage GNOME is because of it's commitment to Human interface guidelines (HIG).
<sirgazil>Yeah, AguaMasa
<sirgazil>I agree with raghav-gururajan.
<OriansJ>raghav-gururajan: well its integration with orca and the zoom function are certainly popular with blind Linux users
<nckx>raghav-gururajan: So KDE doesn't commit to their own HIG? (Honest question, not a KDE user.)
<OriansJ>calher: I stand corrected
<guix-vits>raghav-gururajan: "press a Tab key a thousand times"? Sway has it, Gnome not. And errors (in Gnome Software, at least) get printed in such a small boxes... Only if the accessebility works better. Just i'm miss the buttons with a mouse... Keyboard has all the buttons right there.
<nckx>OriansJ: Last I tried (pre-Guix) it was a nightmare to package.
<OriansJ>nckx: well guix does certainly help deal with alot of developer sins
<raghav-gururajan>nckx Own HIG? I think HIG is drawn from Human-Computer Interaction (HCI) studies.
<leoprikler>KDE commits strongly to their HIG, but their HIG is: "If there's not yet a button to customize it, there should be."
<nckx>raghav-gururajan: There's no one true HIG. GNOME has theirs, KDE their own, every major commercial OS theirs. Otherwise they'd all look and feel the same.
<raghav-gururajan>guix-vits You could be right. May be GNOME is missing some things.
<OriansJ>if there was a perfect human/computer interface; everyone would have all standardized on it by now
<raghav-gururajan>nckx Hmm. That's not right.
<OriansJ>fortunately we as a species has a great deal of neural diversity; resulting in a forest of optimal values
<leoprikler>btw. does guix have an xkcd reader?
<raghav-gururajan>OriansJ I think the goal is not to create perfect interface. It is to study how human perceive things and what differences are observed between humans so that a range a range of interfaces can be built that suits specific needs.
<raghav-gururajan>accessbility also comes into this.
<raghav-gururajan>OriansJ You said that right. Neural Diversity. That is the subject of study.
<OriansJ>raghav-gururajan: the big problem is what is obvious and natural for one group of users is alien and hard to grasp for another group. So you can either choose to compromise and make it universally harder for everyone or sacrifice small groups to the benefit of a larger group
<calher>Gedit Guilemacs !
<leoprikler>Built with guile-gi
<calher>Scheme! Lisp! GNOME HIG!
<calher>leoprikler: What is guile-gi?
<str1ngs> if you are interested in a guile like emacs
<sirgazil>gobject introspection in Guile
<leoprikler>One of the three ways by which you can use GNOME stuff from Guile.
<str1ngs>more windows :)
<leoprikler>The others are guile-gnome, which uses outdated GNOME 2 and g-golf, which does the same as guile-gi but different
<str1ngs>guile-gnome does not use g-golf
<str1ngs>g-golf replaces guile-gnome
<leoprikler>yeah, right, forgot the comma after GNOME 2
<str1ngs>ah that changes everything :)
<raghav-gururajan>OriansJ There are some commanlities between everyone. Like all humans can only perceive certain range of wavelength and frequency. Light and Sound for example. But the studying the diversity is to discover the factors that causes the diversity and to develop a tool that can configured to different needs. For example, the study could reveal what kind of themes should be made available (light, dark or high contrast), what
<raghav-gururajan>kind of options can be put in settings that might be needed for the user to change, etc.)
<leoprikler>btw. does g-golf still use a C extension or is it all done with FFI?
<raghav-gururajan>I am taking from the view study, not in the view how it is implemented currently by desktop envs.
<raghav-gururajan>*talking, not taking
<daviid>leoprikler: all done using the ffi, it has a few C fucntions, thta i wrote, and also bind uig the ffi
<leoprikler>but in principle those few C functions are far smaller than guile-gi's fat C core, aren't they?
<daviid>leoprikler: yes, 99.99% of the code is pure scheme code
<str1ngs>g-golf has come along quite nicely. almost all of nomad uses it now.
<str1ngs>I also have a package declaration for g-golf if anyone in interested.
<leoprikler>and how do you do memory management? guile-gi hooks nicely into garbage collection
<daviid>leoprikler: there are moreless 11500 lines of code, 137 lies of C code, including header license, empty lines ... i think there are like 50 lines of C code or so ...
<daviid>leoprikler: perfect mem management, event for the g-idle-add and friends (which are the most complex to handle with that respect)
<daviid>leoprikler: so far, no leaks, but of course it still is in its early days
<leoprikler>everything under the hood i assume?
<daviid>leoprikler: no, users must unref gobject instaces them selves
<leoprikler>ah, bummer
<daviid>leoprikler: you'd have to either destriy (i can track the destroy signal or unref the C instance, so nothing new under the sun here
<str1ngs>I use gtk-widget-destroy right now
<daviid>leoprikler: the scheme mem will be gc correctly if an instanced is not refereneced ayore, but if you don't unref (which does the right thing on the C side ofthings for you), the C mem would leak ...
<str1ngs>but normally in GTK removing a widget from a container should unref it.
<leoprikler>yeah, I thought so
<daviid>be right back
<leoprikler>that's the one killer feature of guile-gi then
<daviid>i douvbt you don't have to free instances using guile-gi
<leoprikler>not explicitly
<calher>What is that emacs in the screenshot called
<str1ngs>calher: it's not emacs. it's nomad an extensible web browser using guile and g-golf
<leoprikler>guile-gi grabs a reference to an object depending on the transfer hints and calls unref when the object is garbage collected
<str1ngs>leoprikler: guile-gi can create custom types as well
<str1ngs>but I find g-golf is easier to reason if you are use to the C API
<str1ngs>though I have not used guile-gi personally only g-golf
<leoprikler>custom types in guile-gi are nice, but they're nothing to write home about, sadly
<calher>Guix System on a phone
<daviid>leoprikler: if possible in guile-gi, it is possible in g-golf, i'm all hears on how to iprove the situation, but afaict, the user must call destroy, unref ... there is just no way to 'snarf from the magic' that a gobject inst isn't ref anymore, uless users decrease the ref-count ... no magic
*raghav-gururajan finds GNUstep intresting
<str1ngs>leoprikler: g-golf does not really need custom types. since you can just inherit the GTK super class and use the generic initialize method.
<leoprikler>str1ngs: that might be better designed than guile-gi
<leoprikler>daviid: there is no real magic behind that, you just need to heed the transfer hints from GObject Introspection (and hope that they are correct)
<daviid>leoprikler: you must decrease the ref-count, no matter what
<leoprikler>If an object is not to be transferred, you either copy it or increase the ref-count. If it is, you just take it.
<leoprikler>That way, the Scheme code always has ownership over the object in question, which in turn means you can unref/free (whichever is appropriate) it once gc'd.
<daviid>g-golf never copies an instances, it points to the gobject instance
<leoprikler>but what about gboxed?
<leoprikler>in the case of gobject only you'd use unref
<daviid>leoprikler: exactly
<leoprikler>I think my point got lost somewhere. What I meant, was that you can automatically unref on GC.
<leoprikler>It's 1:30AM and I suck at commas.
<daviid>you can't automatically unref a gobject instance, afaict
<daviid>the user must either destroy or unref those
<str1ngs>I was meaning to test the GC aspect more. but I've been busy.
<str1ngs>I'll revisit it later daviid and let you know any draw backs.
<daviid>leoprikler: in g-golf, instances are cached, for a very good reason
<leoprikler>meaning they wouldn't be gc'd?
<leoprikler>yeah, that's a problem then
<daviid>they won't unless the user unref, till the ref-count reaches zero
<daviid>leoprikler: it's a solution not a problem
<daviid>how do you get the goops instance back in the user hands from a callback, holding the gobject instance pointer?
<leoprikler>It's a feature! 🌈️
<str1ngs>in some ways this is better then having to ref the object before you removing it from a container
<daviid>leoprikler: you just can't get a goops instance back in the user hands without a cache, afaict
<leoprikler>right, that would be a problem
<str1ngs>yep because when g-inst goes away it breaks everything
<leoprikler>in guile-gi object creation is rather cheap
<daviid>leoprikler: i strongly recommend ty read the g-golf gclosure (low level) and closure (heigh level api) - constructive critics welcome of course ...
<leoprikler>I skimmed (g-golf gobject closures) and (g-golf hl-api closure) but couldn't quite find anything in particular.
<daviid>leoprikler: what is your objective?
<leoprikler>I have no idea tbh. I thought your recommendation was a follow-up to your statement about "getting a goops instance back in the user hands".
<leoprikler>Ahh, I see.
<leoprikler>You use the cache when returning objects from a closure.
<daviid>leoprikler: ok, then you tell me: you run a callback or a signal, that returns a GObject instance pointer (just one of numerous examples), how do you identify to which, if any (it could be new) goops instace that was asociated with i the frst place?
<leoprikler>Well, in the case of guile-gi that's easy: I don't.
<daviid>leoprikler: right, any GI language binsing on earth, afaict, must provide a mechanism to maintain correspondances between GObject and the language instances
<daviid>leoprikler: i bet you unref o destry
<daviid>ther is just no way out
<leoprikler>Wait, correspondence does not imply a 1:1 mapping, does it?
<daviid>it does
<daviid>of course it does
<leoprikler>that makes no sense whatsoever
<leoprikler>so I can make 100 references from C, but as soon as I hit python or guile I can no longer refcount my way out=
<leoprikler>what kind of design is that?
<calher>Anybody post their guix setups on r/unixporn?
<calher>I want to see some Guix porn
<leoprikler>daviid: You can have both your cache and automatic GC handling, though. Just use a weak hashtable for your cache.
<leoprikler>(Or a weak vector if you prefer)
<leoprikler>that way, your object should still be garbage collected if it's not referenced anywhere else and you can use "unref on GC".
<leoprikler>however, you need to be careful when handing objects over to a function that transfers ownership
<daviid>leoprikler: I did think about, sing hweak ht, and i can't remember why i didn't take that route a the time, but as soon as things are a bit more complete and robust, I should carefully reconsider
<daviid>leoprikler: what would use guile-gi and/or g-golf for? any project
***jonsger1 is now known as jonsger
<leoprikler>Sadly nothing particular yet. I wrote an MPD interface ages ago with ad-hoc Guile bindings and I'd consider writing a better one once I can consider either of them "ready".
<leoprikler>Another feature, that at least guile-gi doesn't have would be the creation of girs and typelibs from Scheme.
<leoprikler>Although that's more of a nice to have.
<leoprikler>Come to think of it, do any language bindings support that?
<daviid>leoprikler: g-golf won't provide that, that is very far fom its objective, fwiw
<leoprikler>thought so
<leoprikler>it still feels somewhat weird being a second-class citizen to GI, however
<leoprikler>hmm, now that I think about it, this is outside of the scope of GI as well
<leoprikler>okay, nvm
<daviid>leoprikler: if you come to 'play with g-golf', please let me know, bug report welcome of course ... if you do so, we'll move the talk on #guile
<str1ngs>leoprikler: sxml could handle the gir's probably.
<commanderkeen>is there a file somewhere that lists all the parent packages installed?
***drakonis1 is now known as drakonis
<janneke>Good morning, Guix!
<str1ngs>hello janneke
<janneke>hello str1ngs!
*janneke just merged wip-bootstrap
<str1ngs>janneke: how's the work going for pinebook pro? hopefully I'll get mine soon :)
<janneke>str1ngs: well, good and bad...
<janneke>guix basically installs and i got some nice input and ideas from dannym
<str1ngs>we just need an ugly and we got a movie! :P
<janneke>yeah :-/
<str1ngs>that's some progress atleast.
<janneke>the bad is that i may have bricked mine
<str1ngs>oh no :(
<janneke>just overnight, "i didn't do anything"
<str1ngs>hopefully you can recover some how
<janneke>well, other than run my own kernels -- i did open it up to flip the serial cable switch, but that was on friday
<str1ngs>is it hard to open? I ordered a nvme adaptor with mine.
<janneke>yeah, dannym had some ideas; so i'll try and ask the #pinebook people; otherwise it will take some time for me to get re-involved
<str1ngs>I thought uboot had some good recover features?
<janneke>str1ngs: no, it's just 10 small philips screws
<str1ngs>good to know thanks
<janneke>yeah, there seem to be, so while it looks dead, it may be my ignorance
<str1ngs>maybe there is an out of band. like jtag or something?
*janneke googles
<janneke>ah, some hardware debugging -- makes sense
<str1ngs>it's generally used to interface with a chip. so say you need to program a bios etc
<guix-vits>Maybe someone knows: What about "Rock" from PineStore? It is easy to assemble (no soldering)?
<shtwzrd>janneke: by it installs, do you mean bootloader and all? I'm still getting blackscreens on my sd card after `guix system init`ing it
<shtwzrd>also, for the pinebook pro, the way to debug u-boot is a UART connected through the headphone jack. You can get a cable from the pine64 guys that you can just plug in and it has usb on the other end so you can get output, but if you´ve already got a UART interface, you could fashion a connector from a spare headphone wire
<janneke>shtwzrd: yes, i take it that you have seen
<shtwzrd>janneke: ah, I have not seen :) Thanks for that
<janneke>shtwzrd: oh good, yes "it works" but not ootb
<janneke>there's some trickery involved, although it is looking pretty good
<janneke>shtwzrd: so this UART, is that embedded in the serial cable that i got? it's not in regular usb cables, is it?
*janneke is really new to all this
<shtwzrd>I'm new too, only know this much from asking people stuff on #pinebook earlier :) If you bought the pinebook serial console cable from them, the UART mc should be embedded in that afaik
<janneke>shtwzrd: did you see: ?
<KE0VVT>janneke: Pinebook defaults to the Manjaro kernel? That is exceptionally odd.
<janneke>shtwzrd: ah good.
<str1ngs>janneke: I'm debating add a user-data slot to emacy's <text-buffer> to be like how <window> works. this would avoid using local-variables to box say the graphical presenting widget? WDYT?
<shtwzrd>then to connect, you gotta open up the machine and flip a switch to disable audio
<janneke>KE0VVT: yeah, it took me quite a while to "get into" this
<str1ngs>janneke: it's really hard to over ride text buffers like scratch and messages
<shtwzrd>janneke: oo, no I haven't been keeping up the past few days, have not tried these patches. I have taken a stab at disabling jit for aarch64 though to see if that'll work around or guix pull issue. Patch looks good, I think I may give this a spin soon
<janneke>str1ngs: yes i'd say go for it -- the local variables really interfere in a way with the goops objects
<str1ngs>janneke: and then local-varibles can be used for mode's ie end user cunstomization
<janneke>str1ngs: yes
<str1ngs>though with inheritance and slots I wonder how useful local-varibles are really
<janneke>KE0VVT: apparently, a manjaro dev (tsys) started getting a mainline kernel+patches going in some kind of heroic effort -- not sure exactly about the history here
<shtwzrd>KEOVVT: it actually ships with an older debian kernel (4.4) with some custom patches on top but manjaro and several other distros have images out based off 5.5
<KE0VVT>janneke: I don't care what distro you work for. Use the kernel from and then make your modifications later.
<janneke>KE0VVT: could you please use more kind wording? you make it sound like you don't appreciate the work that people doing.
<janneke>apparently, the kernel that pinebook pro ships with currently, is very far deviated from mainline -- possibly too far to ever hope to upstream it -- but i don't know the details
<KE0VVT>Sounds messy and dangerous.
<shtwzrd>tsys has stated he intends to send the patches upstream asap. It is a little over a 100 commits diverged at this point which sounds a bit scary, but looking at the history it's mostly just in board and battery specific files which I imagine would be easy to get upstreamed. The worrisome parts are probably the couple of commits related to usb type-c
<KE0VVT>Can I download binary tarballs from Hydra?
<KE0VVT>Can someone serve me a tarball of ?
<KE0VVT>Hm. Cannot download builds.
<janneke>KE0VVT: works for me; guix environment --ad-hoc sway gives
<janneke>... downloading from
<janneke> sway-1.2 4.9MiB 2.1MiB/s 00:02 [##################] 100.0%
<KE0VVT>janneke: I don't have the disk space for Guix right now.
<shtwzrd>janneke: just finished reading your blog post now; the reason you don't have Xorg yet is the intel-xf86-video issue or something else?
<janneke>shtwzrd: i do "have" xorg; it's just not accelerated
<janneke>so, it's unusable in practice
<janneke>i did not share my config.scm for that, yes the intel-xf86-video needs to be removed because it does not build
<janneke>something like (modules (filter (negate (cut eq? xf86-video-intel <>)) %default-xorg-modules))
<shtwzrd>janneke: ahh, I misread. I thought it would be accelerated because of panfrost
<janneke>hehe, /me is getting drowned in all kinds of lingo that is alien to me
<shtwzrd>ah, yep. There's a commit upstreamed which does essentially that. Of course basically useless for the moment since we can't guix pull latest just now :D
<janneke>shtwzrd: i'm just hoping that it does not need proprietary blobs and "someone" can share a recipe; otherwise i'll have to just ask, read and learn
<shtwzrd>* by that, I mean, excludes that xorg module depending on platform
<janneke>ah, yes -- that makes sense
<bluekeys>thanks guix
<shtwzrd>with the tsys kernel, panfrost should be enabled and you'd have acceleration afaik -- could mesa be too old?
<janneke>shtwzrd: i haven't looked into it at all -- it could be anything, even a missing xorg.conf snippet
<janneke>or missing a kernel module load
<shtwzrd>yeah there could be a lot of things actually. If I manage to get as far as you I'll take a stab at it :)
<janneke>now that you say mesa, i heard of mila or lima something -- not sure
<janneke>that would be great!
<janneke>would you happen to know about wifi using linux-libre?
<shtwzrd>afaik we'll never be able to get dongle-less wifi without blobs unfortunately :( the wifi+bluetooth module they're using is broadcom based iirc
<janneke>i was afraid for that, what a weird choice? couldn't we ask/nudge them to choose something better?
<janneke>do you know if that's somehow embedded or if it can be replaced?
*janneke just swapped the wifi card in their dell xps-13
<efraim>bzip2-boot0 failed on powerpc, no 'cmp
<efraim>i'll look at it later
<guix-vits>allana: any news?
<efraim>i'm not sure I need it, IIRC bzip2 is also in %bootstrap-coreutils&co
<janneke>efraim: ah, right -- otherwise it would need diffutils-boot0 added somewhere
<janneke>so, /me messed up the original dependency chain somehow
<efraim>unfortunately my aarch machines are down ATM, otherwise I'd test it on them too
<efraim>meh, not so badly
<allana>guix-vits: hi, no good news. I had to pause yesterday and I am currently doing a "guix pull" before doing some experiments.
<janneke>efraim: ah, i'll have a look at arm; thanks for reminding me
<shtwzrd>janneke: I agree, it's an odd choice and probably my biggest disappointment with the machine. I would guess the motivation was BT 5.0 support; I haven't seen any blobless bluetooth 5 chips so far
<shtwzrd>The wifi/bluetooth module isn't on a socketable part of the machine. I have heard others mention an unused usb line on the SoC though -- longterm I think I wanna find a way to wire up a wifi dongle to that. Or cannibalize the webcam connection
<janneke>hmm, i'd really like pine64 to re-evaluate that choice
<janneke>they might even go towards ryf hardware -- not sure about the boot process
<shtwzrd>agreed, it's weird to go out of your way for an arm processor with a functioning open graphics stack, and then slam in a networking module that needs broadcom firmware.
<janneke>hopefully it's either unawareness or pragmatism, and easily fixed in a next iteraration
<janneke>i can appreciate the effort of getting a working machine out
<guix-vits>Are the SBCs from PINE Store is hard enough to assemble, so it is easier to buy an PINEBOOK (original case from the site)?
<shtwzrd>yeah, same. Definitely hoping for all libre compatible hw next time around. But hey, at least shoving a dongle into the left side usb port silences that high-pitch whine the thing makes when you connect it to AC :D
<janneke>guix-vits: i really don't know...
<gagbo>Hello, I'm starting to play a little with Guile and wanted to use guix on foreign host to handle guile packages. Is there a quick guide or some location I can look up to build a `guile-next` version of `guile-sdl2` package for example ? I don't know which files I should download and/or modify and how to build the derivation like a "shell.nix" or "default.nix" would
<guix-vits>gagbo: ? I didn't read so far.
<efraim>janneke: I'm not sure what your plan is while you're testing on arm, but I do like the idea of having all the -boot0 packages. Makes it easier to normalize all the other inputs across the other architectures
<efraim>and we could in theory drop a couple of inputs from make-boostrap
<janneke>efraim: i agree; i would like to see bzip-boot0 fail like you said and then adding diffutils-boot0 or so
<raingloom>any idea what this is about? "automake-1.16: error: cannot open < ./doc/ No such file or directory"
<raingloom>i can't build guix at all now
<raingloom>(after doing a pull from master a minute ago)
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<sneek>Welcome back civodul, you have 1 message.
<sneek>civodul, apteryx says: seems to hang for me as well; nothing shows up after seaBIOS
<efraim>raingloom: rerun bootstrap
<civodul>janneke: congrats on the wip-bootstrap merge! \o/
<raingloom>efraim, oh, *duh*. haven't had to do that in a while, i forgot it exists.
<janneke>civodul: ty, \o/
<janneke>civodul: efraim just noticed that powerpc fails and i'm looking at arm; should be mostly harmless...
<janneke>now someone should look at writing some documentation about this scheme-only bootstrap, possibly a blog post later when it gets merged
<civodul>janneke: yesterday i fixed a GnuTLS build failure, but there was still a test failure left after that
<civodul>that prevents evaluations from completing, i think
<janneke>ah, okay; btw do you know why `wip-bootstrap' and `core-updates-core-updates' only show this unhelpful red cross on
<civodul>janneke: the red cross is a link to the build log showing the failure
<civodul>in this case:
<civodul>#<condition &file-search-error [file: "srfi/srfi-26.scm" path: ("/gnu/store/bg96w5vbv5hzwx5fi6zcscyfay46rwl9-guix-e157ed7" "/gnu/store/yw47gk70qvqipjglwkqfwppy3dk3ydwl-guile-gcrypt-0.2.0/share/guile/site/2.2" "/gnu/store/m7az9r8bvlkycpw2pfw5klxpa8gsk270-module-import")
<civodul>that's a new one :-)
<shtwzrd>I tried adding --disable-jit to the guile-3.0 package def and then doing a guix pull --url=/my/local/guix --commit=myhash, hoping this would allow me to get latest on ARM, but it still failed. I thought the issue was JIT related but maybe not? How can I be sure that it's building guix with my build of guile?
<civodul>shtwzrd: --disable-jit is already passed on ARMv7
<civodul>or are you looking at AArch64?
<shtwzrd>aarch64 yes
<shtwzrd>I just changed it from (target-arm32?) to (target-arm) hehe
<civodul>ah yeah
<civodul>the AArch64 issue doesn't seem to be related to JIT
<civodul>i've investigated, but not good lead so far :-/
<janneke>civodul: hmm, i should learn to read those then
<civodul>to be fair, it's not really "user friendly" :-)
<shtwzrd>ahh, I must have conflated the two. Sounds like there won't be any easy fix then
<janneke>civodul: ah, there is some content now; right -- before i was looking at an empty page: like
<efraim>only 8 more hidden packages in crates-io
<civodul>janneke: you have to click on the red cross to see the log
<civodul>wat? bisect tells me 0c26e43ecacb5885d4ea59dcc9b118db192f2828 is the first commit that breaks the installer
<civodul>makes no sense
<janneke>the computer /must/ be mistaken!
<janneke>civodul: thank you!
<civodul>that's the only possible option since i never make mistakes!
*janneke is a complete idiot with the mouse
<janneke>there, proof!
<civodul>in parallel, since i'm super efficient, i'm looking at the core-updates issue
<civodul>(likely outcome: i'll fix none of the issues, but hey!)
<janneke>civodul: nice; i think i have a fix for bzip2-boot0: just add diffutils-boot0
<civodul>wait, that's another issue?
<civodul>i was talking about srfi-26
<janneke>no, that's on arm
<civodul>ah ok
<janneke>and powerpc
<civodul>ah yes, nice you already have a fix!
<janneke>however, coreutils-boot0 (on arm) says make: ../sysdeps/unix/sysv/linux/spawni.c:360: __spawnix: Assertion `ec >= 0' failed.
<civodul>that's the posix_spawn implementation?
<janneke>civodul: qemu?? i've been wanting to there some possibility for me to use some build farm arm for offloading/debugging?
<civodul>janneke: good question, i guess we could give you ssh access to one of the machines
<civodul>not for offloading though, in the sense that you wouldn't send binaries from your laptop there
<efraim>I've always thought that would be a good use for bayfront
<civodul>yes, though bayfront lacks arm :-)
<janneke>hmm, offloadings needs to *send* binaries?
<janneke>offloading could work, if i would carefully build/walk the bootstrap graph, no?
*janneke is afraid they're about to hit a huge blind spot :-)
<civodul>janneke: we don't want to send binaries to these machines, so one could use "GUIX_DAEMON_SOCKET=ssh://... guix build ..."
<janneke>civodul: i agree we don't want that...and that could be a very useful mode of opration for someone offering offload services!
<civodul>janneke: i've pushed a fix for the srfi-26 issue
<civodul>let's see how far the next evaluation goes
<janneke>hmm, i never used GUIX_DAEMON_SOCKET=ssh:// ... must find out how that would work :)
<civodul>it just tells guix to talk to the remote daemon
<civodul>so your store isn't used at all
<civodul>anyway, can you add yourself + SSH key to, say, overdrive.scm in the repo?
<janneke>ah, so i'd use that on my laptop to point to the remote daemon; another way of doing offload builds
<janneke>sure, thanks!
<civodul>bah i don't see the installer bug anymore
<civodul>it may have been ENOSPC that led to a subtly broken image :-/
<janneke>civodul: pushed user janneke
<janneke>hmm, /me has more "luck" the spawn error seems reprocudible
<civodul>i can't seem to reach overdrive1
<civodul>janneke: i'll have to check what's going on when i get back home tonight, sorry about that :-/
<janneke>civodul: np, no hurry at all! i hope that i didn't break it??
<civodul>if there's a "i feel unlucky" button, that's the one i'd click
<civodul>ah no, dunno what happened
<nckx>G'morning, Guix.
<mekeor>nckx, efraim: hello, good morning, guix!
<joshuaBPMan>hey does anyone have any example of a vpn client configuration?
<joshuaBPMan>I'm getting an "extraneous field initializers" error...
<nckx>joshuaBPMan: Paste your configuration file (or at the very least the vpn section) and the error message somewhere.
<joshuaBPMan>nckx: ok. Just a moment.
<joshuaBPMan>extraneous field initializers (openvpn-remote-list)
<joshuaBPMan>that is the error.
<nckx>joshuaBPMan: Replace ‘openvpn-remote-list’ with ‘remote’ and try again.
<nckx>The manual's ‘openvpn-client-configuration’ parameter: openvpn-remote-list remote
<nckx>means a ‘remote’ field of type ‘openvpn-remote-list’.
<joshuaBPMan>nckx: I'm certanly closer now...
<joshuaBPMan>now I am getting this error:
<joshuaBPMan>In procedure struct-vtable: Wrong type argument in position 1 (expecting struct): #<procedure openvpn-client-service (#:key config)>
<joshuaBPMan>ohhh. do I need to do something like (service openvpn-client-service #config (openvpn-client-configuration ...))?
<nckx>joshuaBPMan: Yep! This service hasn't adopted the service-type convention, it seems.
<joshuaBPMan>nckx: thanks! It is rebulding everything now...
<joshuaBPMan>great...herd: failed to start service vpn-client
<nckx>Does it say anything more in /var/log/messages?
<joshuaBPMan>hmmm I'll have to look at the *ovpn file and see if there are some configurations I should change.
<joshuaBPMan>let me see.
<nckx>‘At least’ that's a run-time error and your service is correct. Baby steps.
<nckx>(Or wherever VPN logging is available.)
<joshuaBPMan>ok...It looks like it's a "file not found". So I just specified the wrong path.
<joshuaBPMan>sudo herd status vpn-client: vpn-client has been to test it.
<joshuaBPMan>well still shows me in the same city...
<joshuaBPMan>TLS Error: TLS key negotiation failed to occur within 60 seconds (check your network connectivity)
<joshuaBPMan>soo i guess I do need to tweak some connecting settings....
<joshuaBPMan>I wonder if my simple nftables are blocking things...
<joshuaBPMan>nope that's not it...
<joshuaBPMan>my nftables firewall is not running...
<nckx>joshuaBPMan: I can't help you much with the VPN itself, but does it set up ‘route everything through tun’ for you or does that need to be done separately? ‘ip route’ is where I'd look first.
<joshuaBPMan>nckx: I appreciate your help thus far anyway. I could post the *.ovpn file. I'd just have to leave out the certs part...
<joshuaBPMan>what does auth-user-pass mean? I hope it doesn't query for a user password...
<joshuaBPMan>I do see a "tls-client" is the file. and the default configuration uses I'll try tweaking that next.
<joshuaBPMan>yup...darn. username and password will be prompted from the console...
<joshuaBPMan>well frick. express vpn may not be an option for guix at the moment.
<nckx>joshuaBPMan: Could you open a bug (if none already exists)?
<joshuaBPMan>sure. I'll look into it. Do you know of a company that guix users use for a vpn?
<joshuaBPMan>I don't want to roll my own. I'd rather pay someone for it.
<nckx>Nope. You could ask on help-guix@, tends to attract more answers over time than IRC.
<nckx>In the mean time, I'd ask your VPN's support department about other options. You're paying them.
<nckx>If you have a working ‘sudo openvpn …’ command that works, it would help adapting the service too.
<raingloom>does guix hash not look at file names? i'm updating my plan9port package and the last commit was a rename and it did not result in a hash change.
<palpares>dftxbs3e: lolo
<nckx>raingloom: guix hash -rx does, guix hash <file> does not.
<nckx>The hash of the derivation will change, however, since a build could theoretically behave differently when passed foo.tar.gz vs. foo.mp3, even if the contents are identical.
<raingloom>huh. TIL.
<nckx>so (origin … (hash (base32 "staysthesame"))) but /gnu/store/abc-origin.drv → /gnu/store/efg-origin.drv.
<nckx>Hm. I hope that makes sense to anyone but me.
<zimoun>civodul: I have sent the v2 of sources.json.
<joshuaBP`>hey, do guix channels allow users to create and share custom services? I would imagine so...
<civodul>zimoun: great! will look at it hopefully later today
<shtwzrd>joshuaBP`: yep, you can distribute both packages and services that way.
<kahiru>hey, I'm trying to install guix on top of fedora. I have an lv formatted and mounted at /gnu and when I run the installer script I'm getting "A previous Guix installation was found. Refusing to overwrite.". Is there a workaround apart from doing the installation by hand?
<civodul>kahiru: in the installation script, can you replace -e "/gnu" with -e "/gnu/store" ?
<civodul>line 275
<kahiru>I wasn't sure if that wouldn't have some interesting side effects, so I asked before doing it
<nckx>joshuaBP`: Great complete bug report. Thanks!
<joshuaBP`>nckx: You are welcome and quite johnny on the spot.
<nckx>I was playing with wireguard & grepped my mailbox.
<nckx>So I wondered what your openvpn had to do with it.
<kahiru>mv: inter-device move failed: '/tmp/guix.OwB/gnu' to '/gnu'; unable to remove target: Device or resource busy
<nckx>kahiru: Which command caused this?
<nckx>Not that I have any idea of the cause ATM.
<kahiru>no idea. I just wiped everything, unmounted, ran the installer, mounted the lv elsewhere, and copied /gnu over and then cleaned up and fixed the mounts
<kahiru>that worked
<kahiru>how often do you people run guix pull?
<kahiru>and does it take ages every single time?
<nckx>Daily and yes.
<kahiru>small price to pay for something so cool I guess
<efraim>Weekly. I pull on one machine and then use that commit on the others
<kahiru>how does that work?
<roptat>There's guix deploy
<kahiru>oh, this
<roptat>Or with a substitute server, you could have one machine build a commit and serve it to others
<nckx>I do something similar: I run guix pull on my substitute server, wait, then pull on my other machines. I don't explicitly use the same commit though. If something gets pushed in that window, tant pis.
<roptat>I update weekly, using a commit that was built on ci for all four architectures
<roptat>So I am always a bit behind, but I don't build guix everytime
<shtwzrd>I wonder -- what would be the cleverest way to deliberately pull a commit that has a very high percentage of what you need already built and available as substitutes on the official ci servers?
<roptat>Maybe through the guix data service?
<roptat>Or by scraping :p
<roptat>You could also compute substitutes for the latest commit, check with guix weather, and again with the next commit if there are no substitutes yet
<roptat>Compute derivations*
<roptat>But that's expensive, so not sure it's worth it
<shtwzrd>those are all better ideas than what I had in mind at least (finding a 'random' commit hash that's ~12 or 16 or so hours old and hoping for the best)
<roptat>I'm sure splitting modules further would help too, since the build farm would be able to reuse stuff from older commits more often, but this apparently has a negative impact on runtime performance of guix
<shtwzrd>roptat: runtime in what way? Like finding the specified package definition when invoking `guix package`?
<roptat>I'm not sure, I think it oas an argument I heard from ludo
<roptat>Also it'll make it harder to maintain properly
<shtwzrd>i'm sure the argument is good regardless. wish we could have our cake and eat it too somehow though. :)
<shtwzrd>I wonder how hackish it would be to cook up a way to exclude certain files from being considered in a pull. Probably bad because you have to be sure the module isn't a dependency for other modules. But it could be cool to only rebuild the part of the world you care about, when rebuilding the world.
<efraim>Someone had a channels file with a pk statement to peek at the lastest commit with a substitute for guix build
<efraim>Can't remember who it was though
<shtwzrd>Like, I'm building on a super slow machine right now and I think I've spent over 20 mins on cran.scm, and I don't even know R or use any packages in there
<shtwzrd>efraim: ooh, that sounds neat :)
<nckx>That would be fugly indeed.
*nckx had hoped the magical Guile 3 JIT fairies would have a bigger effect than they had.
<civodul>nckx, shtwzrd: the compilation duration was/is largely due to GC, but there's good news:
<civodul>so compilation with 3.0.1/2.2.7 should be a bit faster
<nckx>civodul: Thanks, I saw that thread but it's all over my head.
<nckx>‘TL;DR Guile gofast gooder’ is nice to know.
<joshuaBP`>hmmm guix pull is taking a while...what changed? Is this a guile3 migration issue?
<alextee>oof, gparted is still broken
<alextee>anyone know of a partitioning tool that allows you to "push back" a partition?
<shtwzrd>civodul: that sounds very cool indeed. :) continuously impressed with the improvements coming out of guile.
<nckx>alextee: How?
<alextee>nckx, yeah
<alextee>thanks, trying sudo -#
*alextee[m] uploaded an image: Screenshot from 2020-02-18 16-10-54.png (50KB) < >
<alextee[m]>so is it possible to make my /home partition use this space somehow?
<alextee[m]>the empty 23 GB
<nckx>alextee[m]: What is /sda5 currently?
<alextee[m]>nckx: nothing, i made it empty in the hopes of using it for my home partition
<alextee[m]>it was part of /boot before because i didn't know how much to give it and was pretty generous
<nckx>If gparted supports moving extended partitions & their contents you can certainly shrink sda5, scooch sda2 to the right, and grow sda1.
<alextee[m]>nckx: nothing, i made it empty in the hopes of using it for my home partition
<nckx>alextee[m]: Your ‘nothing’ message arrived twice in case you didn't know.
<alextee>er, matrix bugging out
<alextee>oh i need to figure out how to "scooch" sda2 to the right
<alextee>so i guess i need to boot from a usb to do this right?
<nckx>alextee[m]: This is all trivial work for gparted, just make very sure nothing crashes or trips over your cable while doing so. Complete back-ups would be ideal, but it's not super risky either.
<nckx>alextee: Yes
<nckx>there's a gparted live medium on their home page.
<alextee>nckx, awesome, thanks!
<nckx>I don't think I've created a separate /home partition this millenium. Good times.
<alextee>i've pretty much used the same home partition throughouht my distro-hopping experience, it's pretty cool that everything works
<nckx>B-bbut the bits are all dusty.
<civodul>janneke: can you confirm i can mirror "" on now?
<civodul>i love this hack
<bavier1>has a sharutils feel to it
<apteryx>civodul: is there any savannah side commit hook to prevent pushing unsigned commits? I guess not, since we don't manage this ourselves.
<civodul>bavier1: definitely, but so much nicer :-)
<civodul>apteryx: there's such a hook, yes
<civodul>but note that it just ensures that the commit is signed, nothing more
<str1ngs>civodul: is that only for gnu projects? and maybe not include nongnu?
<str1ngs>regards to the git hook
<civodul>str1ngs: the hook is just for Guix, we asked for it loooong ago
<grp>hello guys. I'm interested in switching from NixOS to GuixSD but I'd like to confirm something first: If all I'm changing is some daemon conf, will the system refuse to do it if I'm not connected to internet?
<civodul>grp: in general it should be fine
<civodul>s/guys/people/ :-)
<grp>civodul: see, problem is: I'm implementing a border router using nixos, and it may very well go offline and to get to the world again I need to reconfigure services, network interfaces, whatever
<grp>I can't possibly accept a system that won't let me do such thing offline
<civodul>i see
<civodul>the model is the same as with NixOS, so if all you change is config, it shouldn't need to access the network
<nckx>And assuming you haven't ‘guix pull’ed after your last reconfiguration.
<grp>NixOS likes to bother me with this: warning: unable to download '': Couldn't resolve host name (6); retrying in 325 ms
<grp>even for services reconf
<grp>no package build involved
<grp>and will refuse to rebuild
<civodul>well here, as long as you didn't run "guix pull" in the meantime, it should be fine
<civodul>but indeed, not running "guix pull" is the key
<nckx>grp: You can disable substitution or use --fallback, but I think that's not even necessary with Guix in your case.
<grp>nckx: well, I'm currently trying that very same thing out. Made a local copy of nixos-rebuild and added --option substitute false
<nckx>grp: And of course we're assuming that ‘changing some daemon conf’ isn't adding a new/different package to that daemon, adding new services, or changing one kind of service into a completely different kind (say wpa_supplicant → connman, I don't know).
<grp>killed my internet and tried to rebuild, builds fine but also normal nixos-rebuild... may need to wait till the cache expires or something
<grp>nckx: of course not, just change IPs, routes, and in this particular case that triggered my rage I was adding some override to a systemd service
<civodul>note that static networking support is not as good as we'd like currently...
<str1ngs>civodul ah good to know thanks. might that also explain how guix has multiple git repositories as well. I tried to find documentation on adding more but I could not find anything.
<civodul>str1ngs: if you need it for another project, you can file a Savannah support request
<str1ngs> civodul ah thanks for the info. I was going crazy trying to find out how to do then. then I have up.
<civodul>apteryx: thanks for the benchmarks & all, BTW!
<civodul>i'm still rather reluctant so i'd like to think more about it
<civodul>but i can sympathize with the will to have something faster!
<raghav-gururajan>Hello Guix!
<bavier1>hi raghav-gururajan
<raghav-gururajan>What is the most ubiquitous free/libre text font and emoji font?
<raghav-gururajan>If not ubiquitous, atleast that is commonly preferred in free/libre softwares.
<alextee[m]>it looks like i can't use my motherboard's bios menu anymore? it tell sme to press DEL but when i do i see a grub OS selection instead hmm
<alextee[m]>i think this has been going on since i used BIOS mode when i installed guix. so grub hijacks the motherboard's boot menu or something?
<raghav-gururajan>But that's not possible, bios is executed before grub.
*alextee[m] reboots again
<bluekeys>Would anyone mind looking at my config.scm. I appear to be doing something wrong, but don't understand the error message
<raghav-gururajan>It happened for me before in my old pc, but I tried press DEL repeatedly as soon as I turned on the device. Could you try?
<raghav-gururajan>bluekeys Could you pastebin your config here?
<divansantana>jitsi really good and just works sip software. Is there a good alternative in guix channel?
<raghav-gururajan>bluekeys what error did you get?
<apteryx>civodul: You're welcome. Take all the time it needs (I took 142 days to respond to you initial review -- I'm not in a position to be impatient :-))
<bluekeys>I'm just gonna try and create another pastebin with the error in it
<alextee[m]>raghav-gururajan: i think reboot was doing something weird. I tried turning off and on and that worked!
<raghav-gururajan>alextee[m] Ah. Glad it worked.
<alextee[m]>Oh here we go again with grub rescue!
<apteryx>civodul: I found the other issue that I couldn't find with the file-system record options targetting a mix of /etc/fstab and mount(2):
<nckx>alextee[m]: That just means your firmware ignores <DEL> in CSM mode. Could be a bug. Maybe it handles a different key in CSM mode, because someone forgot to change both values. BIOS/UEFI firmware are basically just copy-pasted from one version to the next, one model to the next. This kind of stuff happens all the time.
<nckx>Try all the function keys one by one.
<nckx>alextee[m]: Ah, your success messages were delayed. Hurrah!
<raghav-gururajan>bluekeys I am not able to pinpoint the source of error. But the nature of the error appears to be something to do with syntax. Hope someone else could help you out better.
<bluekeys>Ok, I'll try to cut it right back and build it up again slowly... Gonna drop offline now, but will hopefully be back later.
<bluekeys>bye guix
<alextee[m]>Is there a guixy way to run sudo upgrade-grub? Or do i just run that?
<nckx>sneek: later tell bluekeys: You're passing a nested list (nss stump (%base) as packages. %base-packages is already a list, so move it one line down outside of the (list …) call.
<sneek>Got it.
<nckx>alextee[m]: You just reconfigure.
<nckx>If you've disable the GRUB installer with (const #t) or so, then yes, sudo grub-install like anywhere else.
<alextee[m]>nckx: ah reconfigure makes sense, thanks. Found something similar in the guix docs
<nckx>TIL that if you fill out a Mailman subscription form too fast (because, I dunno, you know them by heart and use a helpful browser) you're a robot and need to wait a few seconds.
<jonsger>what is currently blocking us from 1.2.0 release?
<nckx>Also, why .2?
***ChanServ sets mode: +o nckx
***nckx changes topic to 'GNU Guix | get it at | videos: | bugs & patches: | paste: | Guix in high-performance computing: | This channel's logged:'
***ChanServ sets mode: -o nckx
<nckx>Thanks for reminding me to remove ‘1.0.1 is out!’ before it's a year old 😉
<jonsger>nckx: ah yeah should be 1.1.0 as long as we don't want to become SUSE :P
<efraim>We can skip to 42
<lfam>Last night I tried packaging rav1e, the Rust AV1 encoder
<lfam>I wonder if I'm doing it right?
<lfam>I used the recursive crate importer but it seems like every dependency reference needs to be adjusted, adding a version number
<lfam>Is that expected?
<lfam>Is there a way to figure out what dependency versions should be used?
<jonsger>lfam: there are patches on the ML who adding this feature to the importer
<lfam>Ah :)
<lfam>I hope they work
<lfam>Otherwise... I'll stick to H.264 for a while longer
<jonsger>lfam: you wan't to encode your personal videos in AV1?
<lfam>I'd like it be an option on Guix
***sneek_ is now known as sneek
<nixo_>Hi people, does why does guix download does not support git?
<jonsger>nixo_: what do you mean?
<nixo_>guix download git-url commit
<nixo_>jonsger: or something similar, from the man page it seems to work only with files
<nixo_>*file download
<jonsger>nixo_: so it seems to be not implemented yet
<dongcarl>Is master failing right now? I'm failing to computer the derivation on a `guix pull`
<alextee[m]>does guix have a package for untaring files?
<alextee[m]>searched for unar and untar without luck
<alextee[m]>er, unraring*
*nckx pulls.
<shtwzrd>is there any way to get some kind of caching on ./pre-inst-env? I'm fumbling around with guix pull and it has to rebuild everything from nothing just to test a small change in one file
<alextee[m]>there's probably a "unar" somewhere, parabola had it too
<nckx>alextee[m]: I don't think there's a free option besides ‘The Unarchiver’(?) which would require packaging GNUstep, which is a pain.
<nixo_>alextee: If I remember well libarchive does, it's used in file-roller
<nixo_>on the homepage they say rar + rar5.0 with limitations
<nckx>nixo_: Is it possible that it only supports ’some’ rar files? I remember trying it and that it wasn't an option, but not why.
<nckx>There we go.
<alextee[m]>nixo_: oh lol nautilus can open it :P
<dongcarl>I'm also working from a computer that hasn't `guix pull`d in a while... On f5557bde1c3f2029ddfea9b1f803a7e91d5f782a...
<zdm>is there a list of usb wifi adapters that the guix project recommends? currently not installing guix as my main because im unsure what is supported for wifi, and i currently am using the iwlwifi driver for my t420
<alextee[m]>nixo_: bsdtar from libarchive worked too
<zdm>bavier1: thanks
<bavier1>zdm: there are others based on the same chipsets available at sometimes less cost
<jonsger>nextcloud + guix is really hard :(
<dongcarl>jonsger: nextcloud on anything is pretty hard :-/
<jonsger>dongcarl: yeah, but on ubuntu I got it at least somehow working
<dongcarl>jonsger: You might wanna take a look at how nix does it
<jonsger>somehow nextcloud wants to use sqlite but in config.php I say use mysql
<raghav-gururajan>Folks! Are there any font package included in %base-packages?
<bandali>doesn't look like it
<bandali>you can check for yourself in the (gnu system) module
<jackhill>bandali: congrats on becomming a committer!
*janneke just reconfigured on current master and experienced some weirdness; kernel/fonts?
<bandali>jackhill, thank you ^_^
<lfam>janneke: I was having some issues too but I hadn't reconfigured in a month so I wasn't sure when it started
<raghav-gururajan>bandali Yes, I was looking at base.scm, but no fonts.
<lfam>The terminal font service wasn't working
<str1ngs>raghav-gururajan: guile -c "(use-modules (gnu system) (ice-9 pretty-print)) (pretty-print %base-packages)"
<lfam>And networking was not working either
<raghav-gururajan>str1ngs Is ice-9 a font? I didn't know.
<str1ngs>no it's a planet :P
<raghav-gururajan>str1ngs In Guix System (standalone), something like 'font-*' should be present in the system right?
<str1ngs>raghav-gururajan: right
<raghav-gururajan>I see it is recommended for manual installation on foriegn distro (
<str1ngs>raghav-gururajan: assuming you used %desktop-services?
<raghav-gururajan>str1ngs I am using %desktop-services. But I was thinking about %base-services scenario.
<str1ngs>raghav-gururajan: rc-list will list fonts
<raghav-gururajan>I see.
<str1ngs>base-packages do not have other then maybe terminal
<raghav-gururajan>You mean terminal font?
<str1ngs>even then looking at %base-packages it's all core utilities
<raghav-gururajan>I am wondering what font (font-*) is used in guix by default.
<str1ngs>fc-list should help with that
<str1ngs>fc-list | grep /run/current-system/profile/share/fonts
<str1ngs>though all I see is cantarell. so it relies on you installing extra to your profile I guess
<janneke>lfam: hmm, i wanted to quickly use kernel 5.4.18 and then gave up after a while
<str1ngs>raghav-gururajan: I generally install these "font-dejavu" "font-gnu-freefont-ttf"
<raghav-gururajan>str1ngs Thanks. Do you have anything in mind for emoji fonts?
<str1ngs>raghav-gururajan: I'm too old for this new fangle emoji fonts :P
<nckx>raghav-gururajan: font-google-noto.
<roptat>I don't think a font fits in %base-packages
<roptat>But we could add ore to %desktop-packages :)
<raghav-gururajan>nckx Thanks. Do you have any other in mind? Just looking for choices.
<raghav-gururajan>roptat Yeah, that's a good idea.
<nckx>raghav-gururajan: Nope, sorry, that's the only one I know of. And even then, I use an older version with better drawings.
<raghav-gururajan>nckx Cool!
<nckx>roptat: That would ‘fix’ the ‘icecat doesn't display numbers’ eternabug.
<roptat>Yay, it's also similar to the openbox "bugs"
<roptat>Although there's no %desktop-packages right now :p
<roptat>The installer could use that when the user wants a graphical display I suppose
<raghav-gururajan>Yeah, I am thinking of creating it as a part of improving desktop experience in guix
<nckx>raghav-gururajan: try version 20170403 (using guix time-machine or whatever) if you don't like 20171025.
<raghav-gururajan>Btw, gnu-freefont also has otf right?
<raghav-gururajan>nckx Thanks. For now, I just want to see anything but hex.
<nckx>raghav-gururajan: Nope
<nckx>only truetype/.
<nckx>Or do you mean upstream?
<raghav-gururajan>Hmm. Their homepage says "The fonts are ready to use, avalable in TrueType and OpenType formats. ".
<roptat>raghav-gururajan: I'll leave it to you then :)
<nckx>raghav-gururajan: If you want to package the otf version (, go ahead.
<NieDzejkob>roptat: wait, %desktop-packages is not a thing
<raghav-gururajan>roptat Cool! Thanks. :-)
<nckx>Not yet. 😉
<raghav-gururajan>nckx Yep, on it. :-)
<roptat>Yay, it was a disguised suggestion to create one :p
<roptat>It worked \o/
<nckx>I'm partial to having %desktop-packages as well as %gnome-desktop-packages, %openbox-desktop-packages, … to provide a sane experience without abusing dependencies.
<nckx>I've suggested it here before (this week, even) but I didn't know I had allies 🙂
<raghav-gururajan>roptat I like the idea.
<raghav-gururajan>nckx You read my mind.
<raghav-gururajan>nckx I am also planning to do the same to %desktop-services --> %*-desktop-services.
<roptat>I guess %desktop-packages would extend %base-packages, then {openbox,gnome}-packages would extend desktop, no?
<janneke>hmm, 50 lines of code to revert my kernel version -- iwbn if i could make this easier...we have inferiors, of course...hmm
<nckx>roptat: I guess. Not doing so requires users knowing which set depends on (assumes) which.
<nckx>janneke: Inferiors are insanely easy, I used one by accident yesterday, now I'm sold.
<roptat>By accident?
<raghav-gururajan>roptat Oh wait. I forgot. I think %*-desktop-packages will not be needed. Because each %*-desktop-services I planned will use their respective desktop meta-package, in which I will be placing these fonts.
<nckx>roptat: nckx: ‘Try this paste, it's too short and simple so I'm sure it will break, but it can serve as an example’ — ‘Thanks, it works as-is’ — ‘…oh.’
<nckx>I dunno, I always thought they had to be complicated or whatev. Nope.
<nckx>raghav-gururajan: It would still be nice to use a %foo-desktop-packages internally (and consistently across desktops) and export it so we can let users customise it some day.
<nckx>(service gnome-service-type (gnome-configuration (packages (delete … %gnome-desktop-packages …)))) ; you get the idea.
<raghav-gururajan>nckx Hmm. Would I be able to make a service use a package-list instead of package-name?
<raghav-gururajan>That's great then.
<HappyEnt>hello o/ I wrote yesterday about my problem with gdm failing to start. Through bisecting I found that the error is introduced in the shepherd update to 0.7.0 -> commit 205c1e0
<janneke>sneek: later tell lfam: i reverted my kernel to 5.4.18 but that didn't fix it; my last OK reconfigure was ~10 days ago, but sadly uses master from 30 dec
<sneek>Will do.
<janneke>sneek: botsnack
<HappyEnt>Could somebody using gdm and gnome confirm that this is happening aswell :)?
*jonsger makes some progress with nextcloud
<joshuaBPMan>hey guix, it looks like I'm having some trouble using the new 5.4.20 kernel....
<joshuaBPMan>It seems that the kernel is not loading my intel graphics driver.
<joshuaBPMan>at least sway says it cannot load kms or drm or something like that...
<joshuaBPMan>on the bright side, I do have openvpn working, so that's cool.
<NieDzejkob>joshuaBPMan: I'm currently using kernel 5.4.20 with the i915 driver successfully
<HappyEnt>joshuaBPMan: does it work if you do modprobe i915?
<joshuaBPMan>HappyEnt: I could give that a try.
<joshuaBPMan>I've got a ThinkPad T400.
<HappyEnt>joshuaBPMan: might be the same problem I have. For me the culprit seems to be commit 205c1e0. Reverting to a commit before that works for me
<joshuaBPMan>is i915 the old driver?
<apteryx>anyone else having this when trying to lint a package with emacs-guix in Emacs? Wrong number of arguments to #<procedure run-checkers (package checkers)>
<joshuaBPMan>HappyEnt: So your problem is somehow related to the new version of shepherd?
<apteryx>it is due to commit 38f3176a575, which broke the API that emacs-guix was using
<joshuaBPMan>apteryx: that's a bummer.
<janneke>joshuaBPMan: i'm having some sort of trouble reconfiguring to current master; not certain it's the kernel yet
<HappyEnt>joshuaBPMan: thats at least the first commit where it breaks for me. For some reason some kernel modules are not loaded anymore, namely i915, iwlwifi and I think some audio related kernel modules
<HappyEnt>joshuaBPMan: Adding i915 to the initrd modules kinda fixes gdm failing, but audio and wifi modules are still not loaded
<joshuaBPMan>HappyEnt: oh geez. Ok, that's kind of a massive bug. hahaha.
<bavier1>joshuaBPMan, HappyEnt: The 5.4-gnu release notes say "Adjusted deblobbing of ... i915 ..."
<joshuaBPMan>bavier1: interesting.
<joshuaBPMan>HappyEnt: now that does make sense when you say that kernel modules are not loading. I thought my linux box was booting pretty quickly. I could not start anything, and ifconfig failed to show my ethernet connection...
*jonsger sees now the login page of nextcloud :)
<apteryx>seems easy to fix:
<bavier1>jonsger: exciting!
<jonsger>bavier1: it's not working yet. I need to somehow fix my nginx config, but at least php-fpm is working now :)
<HappyEnt>joshuaBPMan: Guess I will bisect myself through shepherd, seems more like a problem in initialiation rather than the kernel :)
<jonsger>syncing is already working. Just the webfrontend has still issues :P
<janneke>hmm, certainly the 5.4.20 kernel
<janneke>guix time-machine --commit=ef2b1d2c8b60776bf66573b0c810474e9e1a4abd -- system reconfigure
<janneke>works for me...
<joshuaBPMan>janneke: thanks for the tip.
<joshuaBPMan>Also, would ya'll like me to file a bug report? Or do ya'll want to do that.
<HappyEnt>janneke: does d39885a work for you? thats the last working commit for me
<HappyEnt>janneke: I tried different kernels and the problem did persist for me
<nckx>joshuaBPMan: Yes please, you're not the first.
<nckx>And ya file a good bug.
<janneke>joshuaBPMan: please do -- my box even freezes after one or two minutes, often just not enough time to type guix system roll-back
<janneke>so i did not get much chance to look around what was wrong
<joshuaBPMan>nckx: Ok I'll file a bug report for ya'll. I'll post the bug report when I'm done with it.
<apteryx>joshuaBPMan: fixed!
<janneke>HappyEnt: ah, you had a shepherd problem?
<apteryx>(about guix lint no longer functional in emacs-guix)
<janneke>HappyEnt: i'll give that commit a try
<janneke>what a day...
<joshuaBPMan>apteryx: awesome! That was fast!
<HappyEnt>janneke: Yes seems to be the problem for me, I don't know why though yet currently looking into it :)
<joshuaBPMan>I am going to reboot into my newer guix system generation so that I can properly record the error messages that sway says.
<joshuaBPMan>That way I can write a decent bug report. I'll link the bug report once it is sent.
<joshuaBPMan>does anyone have a guess at what the ThinkPadd T400 ethernet driver is?
<joshuaBPMan>I want to try modprobing it. (I obviously have ethernet working now, but I won't once I reboot.).
<HappyEnt>joshuaBPMan: try lspci -v and look at the entry 'Kernel modules:'
<joshuaBPMan>HappyEnt: thanks
<raghav-gururajan>nckx I usually get your emojis as hex here. I updated my font. Could you send some emojis please?
<joshuaBPMan>I bet it is e1000e
<HappyEnt>joshuaBPMan: Yep that it is for me aswell :)
<nckx>raghav-gururajan: 🐃+🐧+ ☕=♥️
<raghav-gururajan>nckx Thanks. I see the last two. But not first two.
<nckx>They might be newer Unicode, but ought to work nonetheless.
<nckx>They are a buffal^Wgnu and a penguin by the way.
<nckx>All 4 render in colour Noto here.
<nckx>raghav-gururajan: You're not using emacs are you?
<janneke>HappyEnt: yes! guix time-machine --commit=d39885a8a9e0e03c2bf6277d475d384168bba642 -- system reconfigure
<joshuaBPMan>raghav-gururajan: the same is true for me.
<nckx>raghav-gururajan: Did you fc-cache -r and restart your software?
<janneke>works for me; so it's *not* the kernel that is problematic for me
*nckx grumbles.
<joshuaBPMan>janneke: I'll try that commit too.
<raghav-gururajan>nckx My bad. let me do fc-cache -rv and restart.
<janneke>it's the last before the shepherd update
<nckx>raghav-gururajan: If /var/cache/fontconfig/ exists, (sudo) delete it.
<nckx>That's all I can think of.
<nckx>I use HexChat by the way.
<joshuaBPMan>ok, I am rebooting now, to get proper error messages for the bug report.
<joshuaBPMan>hey guix! I'm back! So modprobe i915 works.
<joshuaBPMan>I can start sway now.
<joshuaBPMan>also modprobe e1000e, worked to start my ethernet driver.
<joshuaBPMan>however, my touchpad is not loaded.
<joshuaBPMan>This is soo weird.
<joshuaBPMan>probably the first time I've been logged into sway without a mouse.
<joshuaBPMan>anyway, I don't actually need a mouse to finish the bug report.
<apteryx>anyone familiar with GRUB modules? Or can I add an extra modules to the default list of loaded modules?
<janneke>joshuaBPMan: haha, i just went to check my touchpad after your message
<nckx>apteryx: Yes; no(t yet). If this is what I suspect it's about look at (gnu bootloader grub), specifically eye-candy.
<janneke>it works, btw
<joshuaBPMan>janneke: that's good.
<joshuaBPMan>I'm working on finishing up my bug report.
<joshuaBPMan>then I'll try reconfiguring via janneke: commit that worked for him.
<janneke>joshuaBPMan: great
<joshuaBP`>rebooting now to see if janneke's suggested commit works.
<HappyEnt>how would I go about rebuilding my system from a local guix copy?