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<kolyad_>13:48 kolyad: Is there someway for me to update the Guix store/a particular core package in an iso installer? The profile system-1-link has the important install utilities, but it is out of date - notably with the cryptsetup util, which was updated to the newest version at the start of the month, at a version without support for LUKS2.
<leoprikler>kolyad_: you should be able to run `guix pull` et al. from the installer after setting up the cow-store
<leoprikler>I always do that, especially after the per-user thing
<kolyad_>Don’t you need to set up the cow-store on open disk storage. The whole purpose of the exercise is to install encrypted with luks2
<leoprikler>Tbh I just haven't tried pulling without the cow-store yet.
<kolyad>Well, when you do so: it first creates a profile in /root, and pull to the latest commit. However, that profile will not have the latest descriptions for whatever reason.
<leoprikler>Even after `hash guix`?
<pkill9>how might the `download-to-store` function (in guix/download.scm) be modified so that it can be used for a package source? currently it downloads the file every time a guix command is run because it's evaluating the code in the package definition, but I don't understand how I can modify it so that it only downloads the source when building the package - I'm trying to understand from reading url-fetch but I don't understand
<kolyad>leoprikler: running it currently
<leoprikler>pkill9: url-fetch does some magic around the guix-daemon builtin download function
<leoprikler>whereas build:url-fetch, which is used by download-to-store does not seem to check the store for an existing file first -- hence the behaviour you observe
<leoprikler>Given the calling convention, it does not seem as if it was meant for packages at all, though
<leoprikler>(especially lacking the hash)
<leoprikler>pkill9: why do you want to use download-to-store over url-fetch?
<nckx>kolyad: Guix does not support booting from LUKS2 at all.
<nckx>The updated cryptsetup explicitly defaults to LUKS1 for this reason. Just so y'know.
<kolyad>It does?
<nckx>I sure 's hell hope so.
<nckx>It should create LUKS2 volumes only when asked (which is a perfectly valid option, just not bootable ATM).
<nckx>kolyad did *not* like that at all.
<bandali>i hope grub starts supporting luks2 soon tho
<bandali>i had to do this on a debian setup:
<nckx>sneek: later tell kolyad LUKS2-by-default is blocked by, once that lands I can unleash the full JSON power of LUKS2 upon innocent guix.
<sneek>Got it.
<nckx>sneek: botsnacks
*nckx clicks bandali's link.
*bandali blinks
<pkill9>leoprikler: there's a file that is regularly updated on a website, and it doesn't provide previous versions, so it's just simpler to have guix download it each time than to keep updating the hash
<bandali>nckx, do you know what’s blocking merging that grub patch?
<nckx>bandali: I don't think it's blocked so much as under review.
<bandali>nckx, oh whoops! i misread the date. i thought the patch itself was from 2017 :p
<leoprikler>pkill9: Guix calls such sources unstable for an obvious reason.
<nckx>Unless maintainers veto the new JSON parser I assume it will be merged soonish.
<leoprikler>do the people behind that project not do any versioning at all?
<pkill9>leoprikler: it's a database
<leoprikler>so you want to maintain a database as a guix package?
<pkill9>the package wants the database file
<nckx>Points for ‘interesting’. 🙂
<pkill9>specifically openra wants the free geoip database from maxmind
<nckx>I'm very curious how that will work in practice, since the file will be downloaded every time Guix even thinks about the derivation. I hope it's not a big database.
<nckx>Ah, *the* database. I should have known.
<pkill9>nckx: that's what happens it seems when i use download-to-store heh
<nckx>pkill9: I don't see a way around that. If the derivation hash does *not* depend on redownloading, Guix will only download it once and consider it memoised. Like changing a (url …) without changing (sha256 …) after the file is already downloaded: Guix don't care; uses the file in the store.
<nckx>Hence any solution will be interesting by definition, and I'm genuinely curious.
<leoprikler>Is this really a free (as in free software (as in freedom, not free beer)) database?
<nckx>The version 1 was, version 2 was not, IIRC.
<nckx>‘GeoLite Legacy databases were discontinued on January 2, 2019.’
<nckx>Welp, that's my knowledge expired.
<nckx>leoprikler: GeoLite2 is Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license, which (somewhat to my surprise) is Free:
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<leoprikler>It appears, maxmind would like users to periodically run
<leoprikler>perhaps a system service extending the cron service could do the job?
<nckx>leoprikler: That's the upstream Guix solution.
*nckx → 😴
<Blackbeard[m]>Hi guix
<leoprikler>nckx: upstream being master, staging or c-u?
<nckx>leoprikler: I just meant ‘acceptable for merging upstream, ever’. I'm sure pkill9 knows this, and is just having some twisted fun with live packaging.
<nckx>As to whether we need their tool: my (crappy) private geolite update system service just used curl, but I haven't run it recently.
<leoprikler>I'm sure it's not more than wget -N implemented in go.
<leoprikler>Apropos live packaging, could one hypothetically run `guix import` (or its exported scheme function) inside a package definition (e.g. inside gnu/packages/emacs-xyz.scm)?
<nckx>leoprikler: OMG yes, so horrible, it's glorious 😃
*nckx → really 😴
<alextee[m]>i keep getting "no space left on the device", but df shows me plenty of space in /
<alextee[m]>what's up with that?
<alextee[m]>i think i had this problem in a similar situation before. /tmp has its own "container" or something that gets full
<alextee[m]>"tmpfs" maybe
<leoprikler>alextee: indeed, tmpfs is RAM/2 IIRC
<leoprikler>perhaps it also lets you swap, but i'm not sure about that
<peanutbutterandc>So I've been trying to understand the build system and am trying to put in calls to (getcwd) and even (display (getcwd)) to an already ready (successfully building) custom guix package. But can't see the 'debug logs' even with -v 2. Any ideas please?
<leoprikler>Are you running `guix build`?
<peanutbutterandc>leoprikler, `guix install`
<leoprikler>yeah, try guix build instead, that just prints all the logs to console
<peanutbutterandc>leoprikler, Thank you. I'm trying that right now.
<peanutbutterandc>leoprikler, It works. Thank you
<alextee[m]>does guix not build documentation for glib? i can't see anything in devhelp
<alextee[m]>the "out" output has a comment that says "everything"
<alextee[m]>asking about gtk-doc btw*
<alextee[m]>ls ~/.guix-profile/share/gtk-doc/html/ doesn't show me glib
<alextee[m]>hmm this sounds like it needs a bug report
<stikonas>argh, I wanted to submit a guix patch for kpmcore 4.0.1 but it needs kde-frameworks 5.56, guix only has 5.55... Looks like a much larger patch will be necessary
<peanutbutterandc>So in my package definition, I've been trying to look around to see what things are there. (invoke "ls") didn't work so I tried (invoke (string-append coreutils "/bin/ls")) (which doesn't give any errors, at least) but it doesn't seem to be listing anything. Any hints/suggestions, please?
<peanutbutterandc>I would prefer to use something builtin rather than (invoke). Something like (getcwd) in guile itself
<alextee[m]>oh there's already an issue for the glib docs
<alextee[m]>is there an issue with having a "doc" on glib instead of having all this *-minimal business?
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<alextee[m]>oh it's actually this exact thing mentioned in the manual
<peanutbutterandc>Um... does anyone know how I can check the values of an environment variable in guile. I can't get through to #guile. "Cannot send to nick/channel" [Creating a guix package, BTW]
<iyzsong>peanutbutterandc: 'getenv' or 'get-environment-variable' (in srfi-98)
<peanutbutterandc>iyzsong, Sorry I'm still a n00b, how would I import (srfi-98) again? (use-modules (srfi-98)) isn't working
<iyzsong>no problem, it's "(use-modules (srfi srfi-98))"
<peanutbutterandc>iyzsong, It works now. Thank you very much
<iyzsong>yeah, you should read the guile manual (local by info or emacs, or online by web browser), which contains lots informations..
<iyzsong>in fact, all what i do is search the manual and find the anwsers :-)
<peanutbutterandc>iyzsong, I will. (I am going through it but couldn't go past some dense sections. So I am currently on a detour of a few books on scheme - and perhaps C, soon - and will get back to the manual).
<peanutbutterandc>iyzsong, Is there a good guide on 'info' somewhere? A cheat-sheet? I'm much of a man-person, really
<str1ngs>getenv should just work. I don't think you need to use the srfi-98 module. same with setenv
<str1ngs>in the context fo guile
<peanutbutterandc>str1ngs, I tried it, but it didn't work...
<iyzsong>don't know.. i use emacs's info reader, 'M-x info-display-manual', then 'guile', Use 'i' to search index and 'C-s' to do a global search... But i guess "How to use info" ('info' then 'h') should be a good start.
<str1ngs>peanutbutterandc: guile -c '(format #t "~a~%" (getenv "HOME"))'
<peanutbutterandc>Please don't kill me, but I use vim. I should probably really switch to emacs. It seems to be what everyone involved with guix and guile seems to be using. (Even saw talks where they just used org-mode)
<peanutbutterandc>str1ngs, Whoa. I wasn't reading the output properly. Whoops. Thank you. :)
<str1ngs>peanutbutterandc: switching to emacs from vim is not that hard. Just use evil and use-package. I switch to emacs and emacs bindings after 20+ years for vi/vim
<str1ngs>peanutbutterandc: the trick for me was to use something like xcape, and turn space into a CTRL modifier. then everything emacs related pretty much turns into a vim leader key. with no vim bindings at all
<peanutbutterandc>str1ngs, I see. The thing that intimidates me about emacs the most is all the extensions and all that everyone seems to be talking about. I should probably learn just core emacs first and then go over the modifications and all... Is there any good book on emacs?
<iyzsong>yes, it's just well, like most other things, need some time :-)
<str1ngs>peanutbutterandc: extensions are the best part in the long run. it's easier if you use something like use-package I found.
<peanutbutterandc>Question: Do all of you only use emacs entirely? And no other IDLEs like Vscodium and stuff (which all the cool kids seem to be using these days)? I do realize you all might be programming in guile since 0.x
<str1ngs>peanutbutterandc and evil should make the transition easier. though I would not rely on evil long. its better to just switch to emacs binding in the long run.
<str1ngs>peanutbutterandc: I use emacs entirely yes
<alextee[m]>i use vim with very few plugins
<peanutbutterandc>Cool! It must be a sin in the gnu circle to use vim (or any other text editor) lol :D
<str1ngs>I don't think it's a sin. it's just that emacs has so many bells and whistles for working on GNU projects.
<peanutbutterandc>I heard that emacs is probably going to become an entire operating system of it's own, with all the extensions and stuff, and that all it lacks is a good text editor (haha :D)
<str1ngs>couple that with things like bash has default emacs bindings, same with grub for that matter.
<iyzsong>i use vim too, for quick edit session (ssh into remote hosts, edit configs, etc)
<str1ngs>ultimately emacs is much more proficient at the end of the day.
<str1ngs>init=/usr/bin/emacs :P
<peanutbutterandc>I see. I will take the time to learn emacs then. You all know what you are talking about. Any place you'd like to guide me to start? Also, I prefer no-gui programs. `guix install emacs`-ing now. :)
<peanutbutterandc>str1ngs, Hahahaha
<peanutbutterandc>I wonder if gnu project should ditch hurd and turn emacs into a kernel. :D
<str1ngs>peanutbutterandc: if you need guidance. #emacs is the best place. I've also help several people migrate from vim to emacs. based on my experience switching.
<str1ngs>I'd say the key points are don't use evil too long. and start with use-package, which-key ivy or helm.
<peanutbutterandc>str1ngs, I see. I feel like I'm finally following the true path of the masters. All I need to do now is switch to GuixSD, install libreboot (learn enough of the low-level languages to patch it to work on any laptop that I might be using) and start sleeping with nunchucks. (:
<str1ngs>key a emacs buffer with a cheetsheet on emacs movement/edit keys helps too
<elais[m]>Imagine using any weapon besides the parentheses of your ancestors
<anon987321>hi guix
<anon987321>i am getting some issues with libguile. if i do #include <libguile.h> in a c program, it results in "fatal error: libguile/scmconfig.h: No such file or directory", even though the libs are there
<peanutbutterandc>elais[m], I understood that reference. :D
<alextee[m]>what is the guix way of working with shell scripts that have shebangs? eg, i have some git hooks that start with a shebang and they fail to start now
<alextee[m]>change them to /bin/sh i guess
<alextee[m]>(from "/bin/bash")
<anon987321>managed to get libguile working. found the pkg-config command required for it to work on the manual. kind of hard to find tho
<str1ngs>sneek: later tell anon987321: pkg-config just make it easier to create the CFLAGS
<sneek>Will do.
<str1ngs>alextee[m]: if you are creating a package use a substitution. if you have many personally scripts that use #!/bin/bash then you can create a special file service that links /bin/bash to bash output binary
<str1ngs>alextee[m]: here's an example of a special file service. cherry pick the special files you need
<alextee[m]>str1ngs: oh wow! thanks!
<alextee[m]>i am also having some other problems during development, not being able to connect to jack for example, unless i install my program through guix
<alextee[m]>i think that can be solved with a file service too actually, let me try
<str1ngs>the program is built on another distro?
<alextee[m]>no, i mean i need to install my program as a package, throuh "guix install", in order to work
<alextee[m]>with normal build and run doesn't seem to be able to connect to the jack server
<alextee[m]>when i run the packaged version it can connect fine
<str1ngs>does the package version have and native-paths or special variables or something?
<str1ngs>what program/package is this?
<alextee[m]>no but i think the jack library is looking for something somewhere specific.. im still in the process of figuring it out
<alextee[m]>it's zrythm, let me push my package for you, 1 sec
<str1ngs>does the program produce an error?
<alextee[m]>yeah: Cannot connect to server socket err = No such file or directory
<alextee[m]>i think the jack library expects to find a file at a specific location or something
<alextee[m]>iirc the jack server writes its PID somewhere
<str1ngs>sounds right. does it give the path of the file/direcotry?
<alextee[m]>the error, unfortunately not, but i can look it up
<str1ngs>also note zrythm-git can be simplified if you inherit zrythm and just use the git source field
<alextee[m]>oh, nice
<str1ngs>try with strace ./program. might be able to deterin the path. but still does not explain why installed package works
<str1ngs>alextee[m]: search inheritance on on how to inherit. namely the adwaita-icon-theme example
<alextee[m]>wow! thanks! strace helped me find it
<str1ngs>what socket path is it trying to open?
<alextee[m]>i dont really understand the output, but looks like somewhere along the lines of /dev/shm/jack_db
<str1ngs>does /dev/shm/jack_default_1000_0 exists?
<alextee[m]>maybe this connect(22, {sa_family=AF_UNIX, sun_path="/dev/shm/jack_default_1000_0"}, 110) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
<alextee[m]>no, but there's stuff in here: /dev/shm/jack-1000/default
<str1ngs>I think there is a difference between the version installed vs the version you are building local
<str1ngs>does the program have a --version flag?
<alextee[m]>i am using the exact same flags i th ink
<str1ngs>what I mean does the program have a way to output its version
<alextee[m]>er, 1 second, i think i was using the "zrythm" package instead of "zrythm-git"
<str1ngs>check the local ./program version vs the installed version
<str1ngs>right they are using different socket paths. probably related to jack version. though there should be some RPC or way to find the jack socket. normally it's via environment variable. but no pun.... I don't know jack :P
<alextee[m]>waiting for zrythm-git to rebuild.. bu the versions should be exactly the same
<alextee[m]>humm.. this is another issue but the zrythm-git package shows me a wrong version Zrythm 0.7.093
<alextee[m]>the local is "Zrythm 0.7.093-14-gcdc53f44"
<alextee[m]>does guix strip anything from the version? i expected it to be exactly the same..
<alextee[m]>i'm on the same branch i just pushed from lol
<alextee[m]>also, when building locally i use: meson build --prefix=/home/alex/.guix-profile
<alextee[m]>is this not correct?
<str1ngs>oh no don't do that haha
<alextee[m]>lol, i knew it was something wrong with the configure flags
<str1ngs> /home/alex/.guix-profile is a symplink in the store. it's managed by guix
<str1ngs>I like to use --prefix=$HOME/local since its user writable
<str1ngs>though might only be a factor if you do make install. which maybe you are not doing anyways
<alextee[m]>i have some paths hard coded to load e.g. installed samples from
<alextee[m]>and those paths depend on the prefix, hmm
<alextee[m]>$HOME/local could work
<str1ngs>this is for local builds only not for guix packages
<alextee[m]>but yeah this doesn't really help with the jack thing
<alextee[m]>thanks for all the info though
<str1ngs>these versions don't seem to match thogh
<str1ngs>is bugfixes a branch?
<str1ngs>personlly I use commit hashes. since it denotes branches, tags etc. its more explicit
<alextee[m]>and the version is supposed to print <latest_tag>-<number of commits>-<hash>
<alextee[m]>ahi know, it's because there's no git
<alextee[m]>if there's no git it just uses whatever's specified by meson, which is the latest tag in this case
<alextee[m]>so yeah, i think the files are exactly the same, just the version gets printed differently
<alextee[m]>i literally just pushed from the bugfixes branch, but i'll change it to commit hashes as you say
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<str1ngs>alextee[m]: here maybe is a better example of an inherited git package using a commit hash.
<alextee[m]>excellent, thanks :)
<str1ngs>that should simplify your packages some and be more explicted in terms of version and commits
<str1ngs>I happen to be the author of nomad. so shameless plug :P
<alextee[m]>extensible web browser? wow
*alextee[m] installs
<str1ngs>yes, it uses guile still lots of work to do. though there is an alpha version in guix
<str1ngs>though warming it's very emacs oriented :P
<jfred>Ooh that sounds interesting
<str1ngs>the version in guix though alpha, should be pretty stable.
*alextee[m] is struggling because he doesn't know emacs bindings
<alextee[m]>but looks neat
<str1ngs>yeah, nomad assumes basic emacs knowledge. I do home to add a new user tutorial for people not accustomed to emacs at some point.
<str1ngs>but I'm quite busy not working on qtwebengine backend and switching the C bits to use gobject introspection
<alextee[m]>isn't qtwebengine nonfree because of the chromium stuff?
<alextee[m]>maybe im thinking of something else
<str1ngs>qtwebengine uses chromium sources and is degoogle. the source is free as in free software.
<str1ngs>for people that don't want chromium they can use gtkwebkit. though qtwebengine is the better html render by far
<alextee[m]>qtweb engine is notorious in parabola lol
<str1ngs>the nomad in guix uses gtk webkit
<str1ngs>that issue is full of FUD and ignorance
<bb12>hi everyone
<Gooberpatrol66>I flashed a flash drive with guix system disk-image, but it's not booting. Is there anything wrong with this config file?
<bb12>i want use "qemu-binfmt-service-type" services in guixsd to instantiate my system for ARM architecture.
<bb12>how i could enable it service on guixsd?
<bb12>for example install something in terminal
<bb12>Gooberpatrol66: please compare your .scm with this correct .scm that i booted it:
<bb12>bb12: just edit your /etc/config.scm and add services then reconfigure your system :)
<Wargreymon2019>Hi all, My Acer Swift 5(model SF514-54T) fail to read the bootloader from guix USB stick (guix-system-install-1.0.1.x86_64-linux.iso.xz). It hangs on boot, nothing shows up. I made sure the stick works, which boot on my desktop. And the laptop can boot from Debian USB stick, so it is just the disk image(bootloader in particular) has problem.
<Wargreymon2019>Help Appreciated.
<reepca>Wargreymon2019: that area isn't exactly my specialty, but did you run 'sync' after writing to the USB stick?
<Wargreymon2019>I use dd, and the stick works on desktop.
<reepca>So it's just the combination of guix image + laptop that fails?
<reepca>it's possible that the different BIOS'es have different failure modes - I'd use dd again to write the image, and make sure to sync (assuming you didn't the first time)
<oIoENikc>installed distribution .. after boot .. on the screen .. new session c1 user gdm .. how to go to desktop ?
<leoprikler>oIoENikc: does the GDM window not spawn?
<oIoENikc>stopped at new session c1 user gdm ..and waiting
<leoprikler>can you open TTYs, e.g. C-M-f2?
<reepca>oIoENikc: usually when gdm is running properly you can press ctrl+alt+f7 to get to the graphical login, but then again when gdm is running properly it usually takes you there automatically...
<oIoENikc>I'm a noob :)
<leoprikler>Try hitting ctrl+alt+f2 at the same time and tell us whether you get to a terminal with a login prompt.
<oIoENikc>I can print something happened
<leoprikler>Great, now you want to inspect some logs from command line
<leoprikler>specifically those in /var/log/gdm (you need sudo for that) and some xorg stuff if you can find it
<leoprikler> /var/log/messages is also a place to go sometimes
<oIoENikc>I searched the Google thanks
<moewe>I tried making fish my default shell, so I looked it up, and it said it has to be defined as a "g-expression".
<moewe>A simple (shell fish) didn't work, it tried to call the directory of fish, so afaiu I have to specify the path to the binary. I couldn't find examples on the net, does anyone successfully changed their shell?
<bdju>moewe: in the user config area I have this line: (shell (file-append zsh "/bin/zsh"))
<oIoENikc>#.ISO from the official website .. i watch video. . there the installation ended with a graphical shell :)
<amz3>is it an error on my side or guix package -s does not consider channels?
<moewe>bdju: ah, that makes sense, quick question: how did you find that out in the first place?
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<leoprikler>moewe: by looking at the manual. It states, that shell takes the path to a shell, meaning a package is not good :)
<bdju>I don't remember, but either the manual or help from someone here most likely
<alextee[m]>is there a reason tor browser is not in the guix repos?
<Franciman>alextee[m], I think icetea comes already packed with tor plugins
<nckx>alextee[m]: The same reason Firefox isn't, I'd wager, since that's what TB is built upon.
<nckx>Franciman: True, but TB has quite a few hardening/tracking countermeasures that IceCat+TorButton lacks.
<Franciman>oh i see
<nckx>I wish this were more clear.
<nckx>alextee[m]: What you might do (and I did for a while) is patchelf a binary Tor Browser into running. It used to work.
<alextee[m]>arf, the problem is that i don't have much knowledge about setting up tor and i really dont want to get into it atm
<alextee[m]>nckx: why isn't firefox included? (or abrowser from trisquel)
<alextee[m]>or iceweasel
<leoprikler>probably because no one packaged them yet
<nckx>alextee[m]: It doesn't completely jive with the FSDG. That's what IceCat is: a Firefox with the minimal changes to satisfy distribution by GNU (plus a few add-ons). This is already a non-trivial amount of work to maintain. If those other names are FSDG-friendlier, they're missing because nobody's volunteered to package them. 🙂
<nckx>I though Iceweasel was dead?
<alextee[m]>yeah i can understand about vanilla firefox. but i think abrowser would be a great addition
<nckx>Oh, Iceweasel became Icecat.
<nckx>So we do ship it.
<alextee[m]>when i was on parabola i was using abrowser as my main browser with librejs, then iceweasel when i needed js, then tor browser for privacy
<nckx>alextee[m]: Assuming there are no freedom issues, all that's needed for abrowser in Guix is a volunteer. One who's willing to commit to maintenance, not a one-shot patch.
<alextee[m]>now it's pretty much just icecat and epiphany, but im not sure how secure epiphany is
<alextee[m]>yeah i can understand the lack of maintainers, firefox-based stuff are very hard to maintain from what i see
<alextee[m]>it's probably impossible for me to do it
<alextee[m]>i could try and mimic what parabola does in their PKGBUILD though. i will try
<nckx>alextee[m]: Our Epiphany is from April 2019. Don't buy Russian bitcoin with it.
<leoprikler>Epiphany appears somewhat behind on many things (e.g. weak adblocking, no script block, no Tor)
<alextee[m]>i don't think epiphany is supposed to be a secure browser. just a convenient one
<alextee[m]>it looks like it would run anything
<leoprikler>it's also weird, that you can't install GNOME shell extensions through Epiphany, but you could through Firefox or Chromium
<leoprikler>(on other distros at least)
<nckx>alextee[m]: <firefox-based stuff are very hard to maintain> Exactly. IceCat 68 is still not released not because nobody's working on it, but because multiple people *still* are.
<leoprikler>like, Epiphany has really nice GNOME integration, but then somehow lacks it
<nckx>leoprikler: I didn't know that. That's weird.
<nckx>Also since Epiphany changed their name to GNOME Web in 2012 (!).
*nckx then reads the ‘I'm the upstream author of qutebrowser — please stop shipping ancient crap’ thread on bug-guix :-/
<alextee[m]>wow packaging abrowser doesn't seem that hard if you just pull the binary from trisquel, but obviously that's probably not going to go in the main repos
<leoprikler>"Packaging is easy if you only do wget | bash" :)
<nckx>‘Packaging is easy if you don't package at all.’
<Franciman>we should teach a Neural Net
<nckx>guix install cuda oh right crap.
<reepca>'If everyone's computer was just a single box being mailed around, we wouldn't have portability issues!'
<reepca>^ the original time-slicing system
<leoprikler>The collectivized computing box
<leoprikler>Now with extra toothbrushes :)
***jje_ is now known as jje
<nckx>There is no cloud, only the communal box we pieced together from radioactive scraps in the wasteland.
<oriansj>nckx: I think that was a typo; I believe what you refer to as the cloud is actually called "The Clown" because it originally started as a joke for small children who didn't know any better...
<nckx>oriansj: ‘The Clown is just in a box in someone's basement’. Still works, 93% more disturbing. I like it.
<str1ngs>nckx: maybe someone can suggest moving it to nongnu mean time. I have a qt 5.13.1 I plan to submit to nongnu. until qute browser is updated/resolved
<alextee[m]>are there examples somewhere of using shepherd services in config.scm?
<nckx>str1ngs: I'm updating to qutebrowser 1.8.1 ATM. It complains that qtwebkit is old and smelly (true), but otherwise should work.
<nckx>str1ngs: How does fit into this?
<str1ngs>nckx: hopefully that's enough to fix it. my qt packages is monolithic and includes qtwebengine
<nckx>alextee[m]: I assume there are examples of adding services (including Shepherd ones) to (services …) in the Guix manual, but suspect you mean something more specific?
<nckx>str1ngs: Cool, we can flip that switch later if I get 1.8.1 to run with -kit in the meantime.
<str1ngs>nckx: qtwekbit is better for guix proper since it's modular etc. I guess if anyone must have the latest qt they can use my monolithic one via nongnu. until I reason a better way to make qt modular.
<alextee[m]>nckx: i'm confused about the syntax since most services in the manual have examples with (service *-service-type (config ....
<alextee[m]>not sure how the data type shepherd service can be used
<alextee[m]>(shepherd-service (one-shot? #t)) something like this maybe
<str1ngs>sneek: later tell peanutbutterandc, I missed your query. you can ping me here or in #nomad-browser
<sneek>Got it.
<str1ngs>alextee[m]: if you like abrowser I think icecat would work for you too.
<nckx>str1ngs: I think we're talking about different nongnus here, nongnu means to me.
<str1ngs>nckx: there is a nongnu channel on gitlab, maybe that is not common knowledge
<nckx>alextee[m]: Yes, that looks like the ‘old-style’ procedure interface (foo-service foo-configuration), which is functionally the same as the new (service foo-service-type …) syntax.
<nckx>I know of a non-something/non-something channel, which I won't type because it contain{s,ed} unfreedom. nongnu is new to me, will look it up.
<alextee[m]>i hope these get merged into one eventually because it's a bit confusing as a new user :)
<nckx>str1ngs: ☝
<nckx>alextee[m]: There's a veeery gradual migration of one style to the other whenever someone feels like it, nothing concerted.
<nckx>I sympathize though.
<alextee[m]>i see
<str1ngs>nckx: freedom use to mean, freedom for users :P
<nckx>Let's not drive full speed into that dead-end street 😉
<nckx>Guix gives you that freedom, just asks you not to promote it here.
<pablo`>Wow! emacs have M-x irc and M-x erc.
<str1ngs>this is not a debate I want to get into either. but controlling freedom of knowledge is not really freedom either. nobody is endorsing non free software. in fact I prefer to discuss things on there technical merit anyways.
<str1ngs>pablo`: circe is pretty good too :)
<kmicu>str1ngs: this is not a freedom of knowledge issue. This only about being kind and respecting community space rules. Like e.g. please, don’t smoke in our house.
<str1ngs>nckx: the technical points here, is qtbase etc needs updating since it's getting quite old. qt monolithic has been deprecated in favor the qt modular packages. I currently I have an updated qt to version 5.13.1 but it includes qtwebengine. it's monolithic because it's easier to maintain and fixes some guix related bugs. so that leaves it without a home.
<str1ngs>kmicu: I didn't once talk about non free software please read the thread. I'm discussing free software included in guix
<nckx>str1ngs: I'm sure kmicu has read what you wrote, no need to imply they didn't.
<str1ngs>Again nobody endorsed non free software and I have better things to do then to discuss politics.
<str1ngs>at least take sometime to look at my technical points. since I have invested considerable amount of time looking into them.
<pablo`>str1ngs: Ok!
<alextee[m]>what is wrong with this?
<alextee[m]>trying to write a shepherd service that runs a script i wrote
<alextee[m]>i am adding this to (services ...) but it looks like it's the wrong type or something
<nckx>str1ngs: Nobody claimed you did. So where is this nongnu repository?
<str1ngs>nckx: if you are interested you can use meantime. I'm the author of giqt. which is licensed GPL3 . those we can avoid silly discussions about what freedom is and isnt
<nckx>Then stop trying to start one 😛 Will do, thanks.
<str1ngs>I didn't start a discuss on freedom. all my points have been technical ones.
<civodul>i missed the beginning of the conversation, but the "silly" adjective sounded somewhat dismissive to me :-)
<civodul>oh, hi Guix!
<civodul>besides, having GObject introspection for Qt sounds fun!
<alextee[m]>oh i found a really nice talk about guix services!
<civodul>does that mean that, say, a Guile-GI program could work transparently with Qt?
<str1ngs>civodul: giqt is an attempt to share code between sbcl and guile. mainly in collaboration with nomad and next browser :)
<civodul>it's good to join forces
<str1ngs>civodul: that is the idea yes, though I'm using g-golf. but guile-gi should work as well
<civodul>alextee[m]: there's also if you want
<civodul>glad you like it ;-)
<alextee[m]>civodul: thanks!
*alextee[m] watches
<leoprikler>How advanced is g-golf right now?
<nckx>Huzzah, qutebrowser works with QtWebKit. It warns that QWK's insecure, though. Do we have a position on QWK as a distro? I'm not going to bother fixing this further if QWK going to be dropped before QtWebEngine makes it in.
<civodul>speaking of which, berlin spends way too much time building qtwebkit
<civodul>it's terrible
<civodul>does our qtwebgit package bundle things or what?
<nckx>Damn, I was hoping civodul would answer authoritatively 🙂
<str1ngs>for some reason qtwebkit build uses a huge amount of ram and disk space. more then qtwebengine even
<civodul>more than GCC, than IceCat, etc.
<civodul>i mean, every time i check what berlin is doing, it's building qtwebkit :-)
<civodul>apparently it bundles its own copy of WebKit at least
<nckx>How's that new build farm coming along?
<civodul>AIUI, the machines arrived at the MDC, and rekado_'s colleague was going to take care of them, i think
<nckx>Ah, still.
<civodul>i'm not sure what the status is, but i'm guessing it's quite a lot of work
*bandali dreams of a better world where webkit never existed
<civodul>esp. in the lack of that PXE support
<civodul>bandali: heh :-)
<leoprikler>bandali: which rendering engine would you recommend?
<bandali>leoprikler, i’m afraid i’m not qualified to answer that question :/ but i sure as hell don’t like the way we’re heading with the webkit monoculture, so to speak
<civodul>BTW, if you're using a fancy terminal (GNOME, Xfce, etc.), i recommend pulling and trying out "guix search"
<str1ngs>there is no good free html rendering engine component. the closest we have right now is gtk webkit
<civodul>the hyperlink thing is pretty fun
<bandali>i don’t suppose any of mozilla’s engines are as “easily” embeddable like webkit is?
<bandali>civodul, nice
<str1ngs>mozilla is not easy to embed it use XUL
<civodul>XUL is long dead, isn't it?
<civodul>but Mozilla's engines aren't quite embeddable, AIUI
<str1ngs>not dead yet, it's still being used even by firefox
<bandali>officially, so it seems; but apparently it’s still much in use behind the scenes in firefox
<leoprikler>let's write our own rendering engine in Scheme :)
<str1ngs>maybe one day will be mature and less rusty
<bandali>i despise the sheer complexity of the “modern web”
<bandali>err, “modern” web
<leoprikler>str1ngs: heh, rusty
<str1ngs>I did take a loot at servo, but I think it would require rust to C bindings, which is doable but would require alot of work.
<leoprikler>how do I make copypasta scissors for the mailing lists?
<leoprikler>i.e. --8<-- ...
<bandali>If you use message-mode, C-c M-m
<leoprikler>I'm not yet using Emacs as a MUA. That is my problem.
<bandali>then i guess you’d have to manually copy/paste them?
<leoprikler>Oh, I do know how to use message-mode in a buffer backed by nothing
<jje>how do i get haveged to start at boot?
<leoprikler>by writing a shepherd service for it
<jje>ah i see. would anyone have an example i could work from
<pablo`>What is the name of app that scan document in gnome?
<leoprikler>pablo`: simple-scan
<leoprikler>jje: shepherd services are scattered all over guix source. For a simple one, look e.g. at avahi, for a more complicated one at mcron
<jje>ok thank you
<pablo`>leoprikler: Thank you! The guix system do not come with that.
<pablo`>We just need install gparted, cups and simple-scan after instalation.
<nckx>pablo`: You probably want to add cups as a service, not install it.
<pablo`>nckx: Inside Guile? Or with herd?
<leoprikler>to the services field of your /etc/config.scm
<pablo`>nckx: Cause when I type "guix install cups parted gparted" only gparted was downloaded. So maybe you're right.
<leoprikler>cups and parted are probably already installed
<leoprikler>(or at least built)
<nckx>pablo`: You *can* ‘guix install cups’ (that it wasn't downloaded just means it was in the store already, probably as a dependency); it just won't run in the background as you expect.
<nckx>I.e. ‘do stuff’.
<elais[m]>What's the exact syntax for changing my default shell to fish? I'm not quite sure about how a g expression looks in practice
<leoprikler>(shell (file-append fish "/bin/fish")) should work
<leoprikler>(better than fish does with guix paths)
<pablo`>nckx: When I install glibc-locales in root, the guix just add in the root profiles. I guess is the same idea in system package. Like "M-x guix-installed-system-packages".
<leoprikler>pablo`: packages are per-user in Guix. If you want to install a package globally for all users, you do so in the packages field of /etc/config.scm
<pablo`>leoprikler: So do I just need to put a new item for each package in list scheme "packages"?
<leoprikler>If you want to install a package globally.
<leoprikler>You should only do that in rare cases, though.
<leoprikler>(examples include nss-certs, evolution-data-server and %base-packages, obviously)
<nckx>pablo`: …and evolution-data-server if you use the Evolution mail client.
<pablo`>leoprikler: Don't worry. I wanna install my HP and fix my pen-drives. Not to do something like I'm was boring.
<pablo`>nckx: I wanna use emacs to see and send e-mail. Cause the upgrade will be to expensive.
<stikonas>is guix install same as guix package -i ?
<pablo`>guix install is alias to guix package -i. You can find a package with the guix search package alias. But you can instal emacs and emacs-guix to see all package available (off line too).
<bluekeys>I've started bug 38103 for submitting my dracular theme patch, but I didn't attach the patch properly. I'm going to try again, but before I do, I'd like to see my bug in debbugs. How do i do that with emacs?
<bandali>try the debbugs package from gnu elpa
<bandali>it may already be packaged in guix
<bluekeys>I've got debbugs, how do I point it at ticket 38102 in guix-patches?
<bluekeys>I've tried M-x debbugs-gnu-patches but I don't see that ID
<leoprikler>probably because gnu-patches != guix-patches
<bluekeys>Hmm, that makes a lot of sense. Let me RTFM and see if that gets me anywhere... brb
<bandali>i usually do M-x debbugs-gnu RET
<bandali>and browse list of all bugs
<bandali>i think doing one or two ‘C-u’s before invoking debbugs-gnu will prompt you to choose the package
<bluekeys>OK, a debbugs-gnu-search let me find it. Can anyone else confirm if the latest patch I sent arrived in one piece (attached properly)?
<leoprikler>btw it's 38103
<leoprikler>We don't see your mail yet.
<bluekeys>Tx leoprikler. I sent it 20 minutes ago so maybe it'll just take a while to arrive? Or I failed to send it properly using compose-mail
<bandali>did you get a confirmation? that takes a while to arrive
<bandali>the gnu debbugs submissions are somewhat manually moderated
<bandali>and they usually take a while, esp. if it’s your first one
<leoprikler>bandali: do they check each and every submission first?
<bandali>leoprikler, i think so ?
<bluekeys>Not yet. I can wait, I'm still trying to figure out mail after gmail... I didn't realise I was so institutionalised ;)
<bandali>i think they do that at least for each person’s first submission
<leoprikler>I've heard that too, but this does not apply in bluekey's case.
<leoprikler>Since they're correcting their first submission :)
<bluekeys>I already have a submission, but messed up the attachment. Can anyone tell me how to get git send-email working on guix? The git package does not appear to install it, though I would expect it to after reading the description
<bandali>> Submissions are moderated, so there may be a delay before your report appears.
<leoprikler>bluekeys: git:send-email is the package you want
<bandali>also see “Moderation of Input” on and for more details
<bluekeys>How do I do that ? guix package -s git isn't enough right?
<leoprikler>apart from that its a whole lot of git config, as per usual
<leoprikler>guix install git:send-email
<leoprikler>guix package -s git should show "send-email" as one of its outputs IIRC
<bluekeys>ooOoOooh, I've not used a : when installing a git package before, what's that do?
<bluekeys>It does
<leoprikler>: specifies an output
<leoprikler>@ specifies a version
<bluekeys>I assumed that it would install that by default, is that not the case?
<bluekeys>Versioning. Marvellous.
<pablo`>What I did today? "guix install gnu-c-manual"
<bluekeys>Can I include outputs in manifest files, e.g. I have a manifest of my currently installed software I could share with my friends (I don't have any, but just in case ;) )
<leoprikler>(list package "output")
<leoprikler>instead of just package
<nckx>bluekeys: Did you get a confirmation? The bug-guix moderation queue is empty.
<bluekeys>No, no confirmation.
<nckx>Sometimes it's ‘just slow’.
<leoprikler>I think confirmations only come when opening threads, not when replying
<bluekeys>Ok, it'll be me and my emacs conf, I'll give in and send it using a web client? Can I mail with any title and it'll be added to the thread or no?
<bluekeys>Or shall I give it another 20 mintes?
<leoprikler>Mailing the correct address should add it to the thread.
<leoprikler>Setting In-Reply-To also helps :)
<nckx>bluekeys: The subject doesn't matter for threading, but it's nice for humans who get the actual mail in their inbox. Mails with no subject and the body ‘Fixed, closing’ are annoying.
<bandali>> To reply to an existing report, for example #123, send mail to Or to the project's bug mailing list address (e.g. bug-gnu-emacs), but be sure to keep "bug#123" in the subject, else you will create a new report.
<raghavgururajan>Hello Guix!
<bdju> seems the install still has issues. this person has been struggling with it all morning and just gave up
<leoprikler>bluekeys: seems to work
<nckx>bdju: ‘fuck this shit’ ‘why is gnuware so much bullshit?’. Yes, such a loss for Guix ☹
<bdju>nckx: ehhh... people get upset when things don't go well. I don't blame him too much
<bdju>guix has made me pretty upset at times haha
<leoprikler>You can be upset by something and still refrain from trashtalking.
<nckx>bdju: You have too much faith in people. I envy you 😉
<leoprikler>but tbf nuance and microblogging do not seem to go together well
<kmicu>bdju: according to that account they have issues with every distro :)
<amz3>still guix is the Right Thing
<kmicu>Seeing that chainloading is involved I’m not surprised. There’s an ancient Chineses proverb: “First try defaults then customize”.
<amz3>good proverb.
<bdju>I didn't follow the whole thing too closely but it sounded like failures in the easy installer made them resort to messing around in a shell and whatnot
<bdju>I've still only done the guix system install one time, so I don't know how good the new installer is
<leoprikler>tbh the installer is kinda quirky
<leoprikler>you mess something up, you go back and then later you're greeted by a big red error ._.
<smithras>I remember the installer crashing for me because there was a strangely formatted wifi network nearby
<amz3>I never trid the installer
<kmicu>That’s a good one smithras 👍
<smithras>The problem had already been fixed but the fix hadn't made it into the latest intsaller yet, so I had to walk into the next room to install :)
*nckx recommends manual installation to everyone unfortunate enough to have to listen.
<leoprikler>I once succeeded with it after some retries on one machine, which was very okay in the eyes of Guix (or rather linux-libre).
<leoprikler>Manual install after doing it three times is ezpz
<amz3>manual installation is straightforward if linux-libre support everything AND you know scheme a little
<amz3>beyond that it requires some GNU/Linux kung-fu.
<kmicu>WiFi is not a safe installation path in general if we take into account that there’s no libre wifi in majority of computers.
<kmicu>(Fortunately tethering and Ethernet still works.)
<efraim>where is inherit defined?
<nckx>efraim: I think it's in (guix records).
<nckx>It is.
<nckx>efraim: Something wrong with your MUA?
<efraim>looks like I killed my ------- line by accident
<efraim>or I mangled by CC line with the guix-patches being line-wrapped
<leoprikler>how do I electric-quote-mode in irc?
<efraim>fribidi CVE isn't listed in MITRE but debian's patched it an it's mentioned in oss-sec
<davidl>Is there a way to challenge or build a package from source but use substitutes for the dependencies?
<mbakke>davidl: what are you trying to achieve?
<amz3>davidl: you can inherit the original definition and change the source (but I don't know the correct field to change)
<amz3>davidl: in a new definition.
<davidl>mbakke: I wanted to build guile-bash from the Guix package source but then it started to build openssl, python-minimal etc which I assumed are somehow dependencies, but now I looked at the guix graph guile-bash output and apparently they weren't so I dunno whats happening actually.
<davidl>I tried to just build the guile-bash package itself and use substitutes for all its' dependencies.
<mbakke>davidl: Did you use 'guix build' or 'guix install'?
<mbakke>The latter will pull in additional dependencies to build GTK+ Icon Cache, etc.
<davidl>guix build
<mbakke>then I suspect OpenSSL and Python were needed for 'git-minimal', to clone the source directory
<davidl>I see. Thx for the explanation.
<linuxlx>I install guix on android.
<linuxlx>but it dns is not work
<linuxlx>How to set http proxy
<linuxlx>I set http_proxy
<linuxlx>but it display :
<linuxlx>warning: 'https_proxy' is ignored
<nckx>linuxlx: That doesn't look like a Guix error. How and where are you setting it? It has to be set in the daemon's environment, so in your host's service manager.
<nckx>No idea what that is on Android. systemd?
<linuxlx>I use Android's init.d to start guix-daemon
<nckx>Is that where you set http{,s}_proxy?
<nckx>(I've never used Android…)
<linuxlx>I set http_proxy,https_proxy on init.d script
<str1ngs>linuxlx: where does guix-daemon exist?
<str1ngs>android requires applications to have network permissions
<linuxlx>I using root user.
<linuxlx>This is log:
<str1ngs>I'm assuming this has been rooted. do you have access to ping, curl, or wget?
<linuxlx>ping curl wget is work fine.
<str1ngs>also guix uses /etc/services does android have that?
<nckx>I can't find that ‘is ignored’ warning anywhere in Guix sources.
<str1ngs>though generally it does not cause that error
<linuxlx>I have copy it to /etc/
<linuxlx>I refer to this article:
<str1ngs>can you find the program guile in /gnu/store
<linuxlx>I can
<str1ngs>linuxlx: when you find it debug with . guile -c '(format #t "~a~%" (getaddrinfo "" "http"))'
<linuxlx>What command does guix use to fetch the source code?
<linuxlx>I will try.
<nckx>linuxlx: It doesn't call an external command.
<str1ngs>for http and https I think guix uses this is an assumption on my part though.
<civodul>linuxlx: it used to be that Guix did not support "https_proxy" (hence the warning) but that was fixed several months ago
<civodul>so you might want to check with a newer Guix
<nckx>str1ngs: That is exactly right.
<nckx>civodul: Did the old Guix warn like that?
<linuxlx>I using guix 1.0.0
<nckx>linuxlx: That's very old 🙂
<civodul>nckx: i think so, see 9bc8175cfa6b23c31f6c43531377d266456e430e
<nckx>You need to guix pull as the user whose profile the guix-daemon is started from.
<civodul>linuxlx: "https_proxy" support was added in 1.0.1
<nckx>civodul: Ah! That explains why I couldn't find that warning in git. Thanks.
<nckx>(Then restart the daemon.)
<str1ngs>ahh this makes sense android uses a pseudo proxy to enforce per application security
<linuxlx>I will install the new guix binary
<str1ngs>though I wouldn't this this would be an issue on a rooted device
<str1ngs>linuxlx: I would debug with (getaddrinfo "" "http") it's possible you want to unset 'https_proxy' which might not even be needed
<pablo`>No need install transmission-gtk. There is a web app in the installed directory that we can use.
<linuxlx>Is guix using guixbuilder to fetch the source?
<pablo`>Best part of guix system is that we don't need "sudo" to "find" some package. Really nice.
<str1ngs>linuxlx: potentially if you are using --build-users-group
<linuxlx>I think I should add the guixbuilder user to the Android network user group.
<str1ngs>yes, that's my instinct on that as well linuxlx
<alextee[m]>what is the correct place for installing fonts?
<alextee[m]>i thought $prefix/share/<myapp>/ was the standard for application-specific icons
<alextee[m]>but guix has truetype and opentype. should my build system support a FONT_DIR option or something?
<alextee[m]>* share/fonts/<myapp> sorry
<alextee[m]>* application-specific fonts, jesus i can't form sentences today :)
<linuxlx>It work!
<linuxlx>Thank you str1ings
<str1ngs>linuxlx: no problem. now maybe I would upgrade with guix pull :)
<alextee[m]>hmm i think this can easily be solved by just copying the font files where they belong in an after-install thing
<nckx>alextee[m]: $prefix/share/fonts/$type. I've never heard of application-specific fonts though.
<nckx>We talking something like a game emulator/engine that has its own weird format or something?
<alextee[m]>nckx: no but i'm using fonts that aren't packaged by any distro so o in other distros i install them in $prefix/share/fonts/myapp/ and they get picked up
<alextee[m]>i include them in my tarball and install them
<leoprikler>that sounds like a very weird solution to an even weirder problem
<leoprikler>can you not package the font separately?
<leoprikler>(especially in Guix)
<alextee[m]>any other suggestions? with gtk i can't just specify a font file, i can only give it a font name, so the easiest thing is to just install it
<alextee[m]>yeah i can do that for guix, but what about older distros?
<alextee[m]>maybe i can add a check in my build system to look for the font, and if it's installed it wont install it
<alextee[m]>in guix we can add the dependency on the font so it will never get installed by my app
*alextee[m] starts doing that <:o)
<nckx>I agree with leoprikler that it all sounds strange, but you probably know what you're doing 😉
<leoprikler>I think there's a fundamental flaw in that logic still.
<leoprikler>You can get other distros to accept your weird package, that installs custom fonts to a directory only it uses, but you can't get them to install said font?
<alextee[m]>i'm really interested to hear better suggestions
<alextee[m]>i haven't tried getting it packaged in any distro yet (it's unstable), but you probably have a point
<alextee[m]>but, what about LTS distros that will never add new packages? then again i should probably not worry about old distros
<nckx>alextee[m]: So releasing a myproggy and a myfont package isn't an options? Projects do that all the time, release myproggy and mylib that's only used by myproggy. Distros have to package both.
<nckx>s/s\?/s?/ 😛
<nckx>Dammit. Still wrong.
<leoprikler>LTS distros should not be an issue either.
<nckx>alextee[m]: How will your programme be installed on those old distributions?
<alextee[m]>right, they wont package my program anyway, right
<leoprikler>Either they package both your font and your package in one go, or they do so in some later release in 2025.
<alextee[m]>okay, distros aside, what about manual installation? "go install this font first?"
<leoprikler>why not?
<alextee[m]>i guess that's not too bad either hmm
<nckx>alextee[m]: Whatever the subtleties, I'd tread exceptional situations like ancient distros as, well, the exception, and not design your whole packaging model around them.
<alextee[m]>by the way, i also ship with breeze icons... i should probably delete those too
<leoprikler>As long as you document it in the README (or even somewhere better), things should be fine.
<alextee[m]>hmm good points
<leoprikler>Better talk to the Breeze folks and try getting your icons accepted by them
<alextee[m]>oh, i don't even edit them lol
<nckx>*treat, don't know why I can't type today.
<leoprikler>(If you want to go for a uniform theme experience)
<leoprikler>so its just another dep?
<alextee[m]>i think their was some weird gtk reason i chose to do that
*alextee[m] needs to check again
<alextee[m]>but thanks for the pointers! will start working towards making these as dependencies
<leoprikler>by the way, do you package a program or some theme?
<alextee[m]>i am packaging/developing this
<alextee[m]>many of the icons and fonts and other resources i just ship with the tarball at the moment..
<leoprikler>I'm deeply sorry. I had no idea you were involved with the demon itself... music software.
<pkill9>alextee[m]: zrythm looks interesting, how is it compared with lmms?
<alextee[m]>pkill9: lmms is for newbies and is lacking in some parts, zrythm is a bit more advanced