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<Fzer00>Does anyone use CLojure? I can't seem to start a repl with clj. Do I need to do anything after I add Clojure to my Config.scm?
<roptat>good night :)
<str1ngs>null_radix[m]: guix system search can list services
<Formbi>Fzer00: Guix' clojure package isn't very usable
<Formbi>you get a directory with a jar, but you'd have to java -jar or make a script to actually start it
<quiliro>roptat: good night
<michaelrose>what is guix workflow management language mostly for?
<Formbi>if I understand correctly, for making long pipelines with caching of some things
<michaelrose>is it for services? for imperitive build steps in making packages? for orchestration?
<michaelrose>incidentally the section titles need work on the getting started pages the link to go to page 2 of 3 is labeled go beyond beyond started
<michaelrose>it also looks like it could really be one page with headings instead of being 5 pages
<Formbi>I don't think it's used in the package management parts of Guix
<wr>any good video on guix install?
<michaelrose>wouldn't a text guide be better?
<bandali>there was recently some great work for introductory guix video tutorials
<bandali>not sure what state they’re in currently
<erudition>michmichaelrose: no, I'm pretty sure we lose many prospective new users because of the need to get through that manual. Videos would be a big improvement
<michaelrose>erudition: videos make sense when there is something complex being visually communicated. Taking apart something is a great example
<michaelrose>when your installer is the user editing a text file and performing a series of operations in the shell a video is worse in every possible way. Its much slower to communicate by 2-3 times, its hard for the user to go through at their own pace scrubbing a video is more complicated than scrolling a document, harder to refer to
<michaelrose>even for a gui installer a handful of screenshots and a document one can read in a few minutes would be better than a 20 minute video
<wr>michaelrose, i prefer video
<wr>michaelrose, i mean one ona virtual machine
<michaelrose>wr: the fact that you prefer videos doesn't mean that they are any good
<wr>erudition, yes gnu stuff would get more users on video
<michaelrose>citation needed
<wr>michaelrose, they are good for me, why would they not be? just text?
<erudition>Firstly, they never specified that the video should use the manual install method. There is now a psuedo-graphical installer, which does not necessarily involve all of the steps you describe. In fact, they never even said "guix install _tutorial_ video", so simply a video of watching the install process fits the bill. Many people want to watch it before they go through it. There are tons of videos of people just installing
<erudition>other distros.
<wr>michaelrose, i can spend days reading a freebsd manual, but on a virtual machine install of freebsd that's it
<erudition>In fact, I saw a video on someone installing nix before I decided if I wanted to go through the effort
<michaelrose>erudition: because its easier to make worthless content than it is to make worthwhile content, there are lots of unboxing videos and 10 things you didn't know about something you don't care about doesn't mean the world needs more of them
<erudition>You have it backwards. Whether they are any good has no bearing on whether they are the preferred format for many prospective users.
<michaelrose>I actually listed objective differences not just opinion
<wr>michaelrose, a nice example
<erudition>I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. You or I might not see the value in things like unboxing videos. But you can't project your values onto the whole worldlest we detriment outreach efforts
<mbakke>civodul: Your GPG key has expired.
<wr>erudition, what does a video install have to do with project your values?
<wr>erudition, my values can be a programming code install
<erudition>You opined that because it may not be the best format by technical merits, it is akin to "worthless content" that "the world does not need more of"
<wr>erudition, i never said it was a good or bad format
<erudition>You even said "things you don't care about" which of course is very you-specific
<wr>i mean in that way
<michaelrose>It is worthless content because it takes more time and effort to create a worse resource
<erudition>"worse resource" <- you don't think it's a good format for the topic
<erudition>That is the only reason you would judge the resource before it is even made
<wr>michaelrose, if you have text and a video why is it worse? less is more, but more is less
<wr>if it was bad nobody would do it on video platforms
<michaelrose>wr: that is the worlds worst logic
<erudition>There are lots of side effect benefits to having an install video also. For example if you're having trouble on the install you can go check out what it's "supposed to" look like, skipping to that part
<erudition>You can also get a feel for how long it will take, unlike a text manual
<wr>michaelrose, tell that to all the guys who make videos of systems installs
<wr>even companies
<michaelrose>wr: I don't have to debate a position you never ably communicated popularity is a pointless argument
<michaelrose>it doesn't prove something is any good at all
<michaelrose>cigerette smoking and aesbestos were both very prevelant, php still is
<wr>yes it proves, if it was not good nobody would do it, it's good for them
<wr>michaelrose, i'm not talking on additions, i'm saying just video format installs, so we cannot compare different things as examples
<erudition>Actually, it can. If a certain popular method drives more users to guix, it is worth trying, regardless of the value jusdgement you place on it that you think everyone should see
<wr>erudition, i can assure you 1000% that it will
<michaelrose>smoking being more prevalent previously proves we collectively misunderstood the cost benefit analysis not that it was good
<michaelrose>nobody is arguing that you can't make such a video, I'm just arguing that its pointless you can still make one
<michaelrose>I don't run the internet
<wr>erudition, if put that to the test you will see imediatly results
<erudition>It's similar to how people dismissed the GUI as being inferior to the command line because they see it as more efficient... And concluded that therefore they should never bother with a GUI. Which is fine for them, but it's a mistake to project that onto the rest of the world
<wr>michaelrose, an install on video is just a small example of what can do
<wr>erudition, i can agree a command line is more powerfull, but only if you know how to use if, many people may not and prefer something like a GUI
<erudition>You are arguing that we shouldn't make an install video because it's doomed to be not as good. The Fallacy is thinking that those people will say "oh well, can't find a video, guess I'll just read the manual"
<erudition>When in fact it may very well be that they will say "oh well, guess I won't try guix"
<wr>no no no, i said first if there was any, and if one was made it would be nice example of a install
<erudition>I was not talking to you, wr
<michaelrose>wr: gui vs cli and video vs document is a terrible analogy the document is more discoverable than the video
<wr>michaelrose, your thinking on video to substitue a manual i never said that in that way, what i mean is you have a manual, and a fast video of how to do a guix install, that's it, how long does it take to install a GUIX? minutes?
<erudition>Discoverability. More "technical merits". Though even that's debatable, because YouTube for example will definitely rank high SEO-wise
<wr>erudition, you don't need to use youtube when have mediagoblin
<erudition>No one said you'd need to. But media goblin would definitely have poor discoverability unfortunately
<wr>maybe less, but... it's free software and youtube is not
<erudition>I'm aware
<wr>well i guess somebody had made one
<michaelrose>its also vastly easier to serve text and images than video
<erudition>Indeed. Technical merits abound.
<erudition>There is no doubt that there will be plenty of textual resources when it comes to guix
<michaelrose>lol the video is just a textual document describing installation where every several seconds it changes pages
<erudition>Although "serving" isn't a problem when it comes to YouTube. Basically unlimited storage.
<wr>michaelrose, like said once, keep referring videos as a substitute for manuals, we are on different points, i never said do a video to substitute a manual, just said can make a video, then can use manual aside, different things
<erudition>Lol really? Womp. Lame video
<wr>erudition, we came blame users for a try, can we?
<michaelrose>its 10kb of text expanded to 4MB without the ability to control page turns
<erudition>Yeah no that's not very useful I agree
<wr>michaelrose, this one seems better
<erudition>Honestly screenshots would be an easy boost
<wr>screenshots not bad
<wr>michaelrose, there is a manual, and there is video of guix install, two separate things...
<wr>or if you guys prefer can have zilion videos of nice installs on different all things manual had
<wr>there is also the ability of a video of everything that the manual has, and you don't need manuals anymore, but it's bit more long
<erudition>Um no, you'd still need the manual
<erudition>That's for sure
<erudition>Videos cannot be easily updated, and will never replace the manual entirely
<quiliro>i think that if wr wants to make a video, it would be a good contribution
<quiliro>but if he/she wants someone else to make a video, it would not be the best use of resources
<michaelrose>wr: do you actually believe you can replace a manual with a zillion videos?
<wr>michaelrose, erudition if you guys don't like videos don't wanna stress you guys with that, but i wonder since GUIX is Free Software if a user does make a good video install and is glad to submit it the GUIX site will it ever be online?
<wr>quiliro, since this is Free Software if someone else does it i cannot say anything
<michaelrose>how do you search for the point in all videos where the speaker said a particular word, or what about if a command syntax changed ever so slightly do you reshoot half your videos instead of doing find and replace in text
<wr>michaelrose, since it's technically possible, yes, but i do agree a manual takes less space
<wr>if space is not the issue
<wr>michaelrose, youtube for example has a way to search on a video of words, you can do another video, i'm not comparing efficiency that is different case
<wr>michaelrose, but my point was not make a video to substitute a manual, just said would be nice to have a video of a GUIX install
<quiliro>wr: on the practical side, is it your desire that someone else provide videos of guix or what you want is to contribute a video?
<wr>quiliro, on free software you submit code to development of stuff, why can't people submit a video of a GUIX install either?
<quiliro>you can!
<quiliro>who said you couldn't
<wr>quiliro, on the time i make a good one, i don't mind a submit
<wr>just asking, never said could not
<quiliro>what i say is: just be practical, propose to make a video or accept no one else...listening to this chat....considers it a priority
<wr>quiliro, there are already videos on GUIX install the fact is that there is none on GUIX site, wonder why
<quiliro>i get it now
<wr>quiliro, finally
<quiliro> you are asking for them to be referenced on the might be a good option.....
<quiliro>it would have served me in my newbie days
<wr>why not? if you have a nice video install and it's ok
<quiliro>wr: you never said so
<quiliro>it would be a great post for the mailing list.
<wr>i agree
<quiliro>would you please suggest? be prepared for some people to agree and some not to is freedom of opinion
<wr>it's free software as in freedom?
<wr>freedom never disagrees
<wr>or else it can't be free
<quiliro>i don't think anyone would opose if it was in free format and on a free platform
<wr>i guess not...
<quiliro>it would be interesting to confirm if the videos' licenses are free
<quiliro>would you be willing to make this contribution?
<michaelrose>wr: As I said videos are good for promotion, not help to install software. If you consider making a guix video it should showcase interesting features of guix, its install isn't neccesarily an interesting feature.
<wr>if the site is on a free platform, and it is on
<wr>quiliro, as soon as i install it well, see no problem
<quiliro>wr: that is going too far
<quiliro>oh that is food too
<wr>michaelrose, you do have the manual also
<quiliro>if it is GNU is not necessary...what is important is that the place that hosts the videos does not impose the user run nonfree software on the user's computer
<quiliro>nonfree javascript for example, or any nonfree code on any computer language
<wr>michaelrose, i don't get that part that you say "its install isn't neccesarily an interesting feature", so you use GUIX and no install, don't get it
<quiliro>michaelrose: i think it would be interesting to see that installation is not too dificult
<quiliro>as in the last video wr posted
<michaelrose>watching people install software is like watching people fish. Doing it might be interesting but the watching part is missing all the good stuff
<michaelrose>like eating the fish
<quiliro>it would bring confidence to newbies
<quiliro>good one
<quiliro>but i still think that any contribution is good
<wr>michaelrose, i bet your a proficient user on the GUIX, but we cannot lower the "user", and make it so hard for them to start on this
<wr>ah wait, there is something there
<quiliro>if someone contributes something, it is because they think it is useful...if someone else uses it, it was a great contribution
<quiliro>wr: yes, i've seen that one on the website
<michaelrose>I don't want anyone to be discouraged from contributing
<quiliro>which compiles with michaelrose's TORs?
<quiliro>remove the ?
<quiliro>s/remove\ the\ ?//
<quiliro>that was almost as a good FBI secret operation cleanup
<quiliro>but i am not available for recruiting :-D
<quiliro> was not as perfect....there is the chat log :-(
<quiliro>and the legs of all users in this room
<quiliro>that video is from 2016
<quiliro>it would be nice to post one from 2019...but i do not have the skill to demonstrate the new features
<Sveta>just show them and write a transcript
<quiliro>maybe one video per feature would be nice...and renew the videos of commands that have changed
<Sveta>then announce it using espeak
<Sveta>then others can translate it to their language
<quiliro>Sveta: great idea!
<Sveta>thanks, i'm glad you like it
<quiliro>maybe even in esperanto
<Sveta>bonus points if this version of espeak or alternative can make sad or happy voice depending on what you're looking at
<quiliro>that i do not know if is possible
<quiliro>i have used is a very robotic voice
<quiliro>and in spanish, it has english accent
<Sveta>wikipedia says this app has intonations, maybe you could check whether its spanish is sensible
<utraz>yeey, installation went fine
<utraz>hello everyone
<Sveta>hi utraz :-)
<Sveta>quiliro, (i'd test gnuspeech myself, but i am not at home now, and at home i don't usually use sound at the laptop because it is a shared apartment)
<Dynamicmetaflow>out of curiosuty is it possible to change the directory of .guix-profile to be on the root drive instead?
<Dynamicmetaflow>Thinking about using Qubes and Guix and wanted check in over here before i try that out
<quiliro>Sveta: is gnuspeech on guix?
<Sveta>i don't see it
<Sveta>( at )
<quiliro>Sveta: it is not...but espeak-ng is
<quiliro>guix search espeak
<quiliro>guix search gnuspeech
<quiliro>i was searching for the game of can i seach it?
<quiliro>guix search go search game
<quiliro>gives nothing
<quiliro>found it...gnugo and there is another one that is called something like leyla
<quiliro>are the two games of ngo on guix
<quiliro>i am installing them
<quiliro>Sveta: gnuspeech is only in english
<Sveta>ah, that's a shame
<quiliro>last version is of 2015
<Sveta>yeah.. i wonder whether they use espeak as the base, or what algorithm they are using
<Sveta>and whether or not it can be re-used for making a spanish version
<quiliro>yes...i like that it is agnu software
<quiliro>but espeak is fairly updated
<quiliro>8 days ago
<quiliro> languages
<Sveta>in espeak you can choose which voice to use
<quiliro>but gnuspeech sounds less robotic
<quiliro>in gnuspeech you can choose voices too
<Sveta> (may have non-free scripts) <-- they mention "venezuelan spanish mbrola voice"
<quiliro>yes, i've tested it
<quiliro>not the venezuelan but the spanish and mexican
<Dynamicmetaflow>yay so crossing my fingers
<Dynamicmetaflow>i'm installing guix package manager in a qubes fedora minimal vm
<Sveta>quiliro, here is another one
<Sveta>quiliro, (non-free js link) maybe this is waaaaaaaay better (but docs is way more scattered)
<quiliro>that is human to ai
<Fzer0>Formbi How could I make the Clojure recipe(?) more usable (sorry, I just install Guix last night)
<quiliro>Fzer0: read the manual....
<quiliro>Fzer0: then look at the source code
<quiliro>Fzer0: you might first check the mailing list
<quiliro>Fzer0: perhaps there is discussion about it and you can see what the problem is and have an idea of how to solve it
<quiliro>Fzer0: you could suggest on the thread that discusses the issue
<quiliro>Fzer0: then you would not be on your own
<quiliro>gotta go now...good luck
<ryanprior>I'd like to do some Clojure development in guix. The way I'd normally do that is with leiningen, but there's no package for that. Looks like in 2017 somebody thought about packaging it but it stalled.
<ryanprior>There is a `clojure` package but I can't tell what it does. If you `guix environment --ad-hoc clojure` it doesn't give you lein, javac, maven, nothing.
<ryanprior>I ran `guix edit clojure` to look at the package definition but I'm just as confused as before - I don't know the package DSL well enough to understand what the package is trying to provide.
<ryanprior>Anybody else do Clojure development with guix? I tried searching "guix clojure howto" but the results are about either guix or clojure, not both.
<rvgn>Hello Guix!
<rvgn>mbakke Since core-updates branch was frozen yesterday, when it will be merged with master branch?
<efraim>When its ready
<efraim>When most things work and the people who test it are satisfied with how it works
<anon321anon123>Does this mean 1.1 is coming?
<rvgn>efraim Cool! :)
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<janneke>hello civodul!
<civodul>hey, how's everything janneke?
<jonsger>rekado: something got broken with the table on the start page of
<janneke>civodul: hacking hard on getting emacsy into a more hackable shape :-)
<janneke>and excited about core-updates
<civodul>yep, me too!
<civodul>so GUImax is your primary target, right?
<civodul>(did i spell that right?)
<janneke>civodul: yea, Guixmax -- i dunno, guimax is my carrier for maturing and validating emacsy
<janneke>i should really get back into bootstrapping harder and do a mes release but it seems this is the time for emacsy
<janneke>and spk121 has been exceptionally helpful and responsive with guile-gi, which also is pretty exciting
*janneke something i said? ;)
<civodul>i think it's good to hack on what you feel like hacking
<civodul>so it's wise to do Emacsy while you're the most excited about it
<janneke>yeah thanks, i think so too
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<roptat>"my profile disappeared once again" <- this is really weird
<pkill9_>does anyone run guix system on a pinebook?
<civodul>roptat: what are you referring to?
<roptat>a recent email on help-guix
*civodul has yet to catch up help-guix...
<roptat>it looks similar to the user on distrowatch, but there's something going on with the resulting profiles anyway
<roptat>we thought the issue was that the user tried to do two operations at the same time, but this time, the profile ends up having a corrupted manifest it seems
<roptat>and I don't think it's possible even if you run multiple transactions at the same time
<civodul>roptat: the manifest is in the store, so it's "impossible" to have a corrupt manifest
<Fzer0>ryanprior: I asked the same question yesterday, but didn't get very far. I also installed Clojure and typed "clj" from the terminal...and nothing. I would love to get this sorted out but I just installed GUIX two days ago. Did you have any luck?
<Dynamicmetaflow>Good morning!
<bgardner>pkill9_: I run it as a foreign distro on my pinebook, but its very low on space.
<pkill9_>bgardner: is the pinebook any good? i want something to hack on when i'm out and about
<pkill9_>and to use when travelling
<pkill9_>since it's light and fairly cheap
<pkill9_>though apparently the keyboard isn't very good, hmm
<pkill9_>hmm actually i should just get a new battery for this laptop and upgrade the touchpad
<civodul>roptat: i've commented on the setup, i think you should be able to deploy for testing now :-)
*civodul is quite happy with the static-web-site-service-type hack
<pkill9_>what does that service do civodul?
<civodul>it takes care of automatically updating and publishing static web sites
<civodul>typically web sites that use Haunt and have a "guix.scm" file to build them
<civodul>it's really nothing fancy, but i find it convenient
<civodul>here's an example:
<davexunit>civodul: whoa that is neat
<davexunit>so it rebuilds the site on some schedule via cron?
<davexunit>this is a new level of guix usage I haven't seen before: services that build things with guix
<Diagon>Is it possible to install guix on a system that I don't have root privileges on?
<davexunit>civodul: so I'm used to 'guix.scm' containing stuff for use by 'guix environment', but in this case it looks like it is a script that does the equivalent of 'haunt build'?
<davexunit>Diagon: it's possible but the experience is degraded quite a lot. you won't be able to download any binaries, for instance.
<pkill9_>civodul: nice, i was thinking about something like that, generating static sites with guix and haunt
<pkill9_>but i don't have much use for it so didn't pursue it
<Diagon>davexunit - you mean I'll have to compile everything? Or what.
<pkill9_>davexunit: i would assume it regenerates the site when it's updated
<davexunit>Diagon: yes.
<davexunit>if this is your first time using Guix I really wouldn't recommend it.
*pkill9_ wants to make a guix service that provides a web frontend for updating the static site
<davexunit>I've been using guix for years and I would never use it on a machine that I didn't have root on.
*pkill9_ then wants to use `guix deploy` to run the server
<davexunit>pkill9_: it rebuilds every so often via the cron schedule. there's nothing to detect an update.
<Diagon>davexunit - I see. Would I be wrong in saying that would be kind of like a gentoo portage experience? I've got a server on which I don't have root privilege. I've been using homebrew/linuxbrew and recentrly trying junest, but neither are great.
<pkill9_>oh ok
<davexunit>Diagon: yeah, I guess it would be something like that. you'll have to compile *everything*.
<pkill9_>there's not really much need to regenerate immediately i guess
<Diagon>davexunit - righto. I did check Nix, and they say you have to install to ... I think it's /usr/local, so that needs root. You have any thoughts on another pkg manager that wouldn't? If not, it LL guix and portage are the two ...
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<davexunit>Diagon: I'm not sure.
<Diagon>davexunit - ok. I appreciate your input.
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<davexunit>I've never used a machine that I didn't have full control over for any significant length of time where I'd want to do something like this.
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*nckx tried to proot a working guix out of a huge but shared server; never worked.
<Dynamicmetaflow>So what's everyone up to?
<Dynamicmetaflow>I'm trying to learn more about Qubes and see if it would be possible to have a vm that runs guix as it's package manager and leverage it's features.
<civodul>davexunit: yes, guix.scm does the equivalent of "haunt build", and yes it happens via an mcron job
<civodul>it'd be nice to be able to trigger it via a GET request or something
<davexunit>this is very cool!
<davexunit>using guix in ways I hadn't thought of
<davexunit>really great stuff
<davexunit>and also cool that haunt is involved :)
*nckx .oO or is there a {i,d}notify watching library for Guile?
<davexunit>nckx: yes
<civodul>Haunt is pleasant and i think many of us happily use it
<civodul>Dynamicmetaflow: that'd be an interesting endeavor!
<davexunit>nckx: there is guile-inotify but I think it's written in C or something. I didn't love that so I wrote my own, but currently it's a part of an unreleased project:
<davexunit>I haven't looked at this stuff in awhile but I believe this is a complete wrapper of the inotify API and it's a standalone module that anyone could snarf and use somewhere else.
<davexunit>civodul: glad Haunt is working out well for the website :)
<Dynamicmetaflow>civodul: Yes, I agree, I think it should definitely be possible from some initial testing, what one could do is use one of the existing VM templates (debian fedora) and run guix on top as a package manger. They even have a minial template for these distro. It's what I'm trying to do now, I was able to install guix although running into a slight error with guix pull and sql, I think it's either related to the memory of the VM or
<Dynamicmetaflow>already having SQL.
<nckx>davexunit: Ah! Thanks! I only found some non-confidence-inspiring stuff that was abandoned in 2012 & 2014.
<Dynamicmetaflow>civodul: The interesting part, is that Qubes allows you to create your own template VM from scratch, so that is an area I would be intereted in exploring. What would be great is to specific specific apps in a VM that were installed by guix with qubes.
<civodul>Dynamicmetaflow: yup, that'd be fun
<civodul>plus there's a clear connection between the two projects: R-B and bootstrappable builds
<civodul>(reproducible builds)
<Dynamicmetaflow>So still learning and trying to put pieces together, I hope someday Qubes integrates guix further as I think it makes it a strong candidate for this idea of security through isolation and also reproducecibility
<davexunit>nckx: you're welcome! maybe I should release this as a standalone project, though the obvious name is already taken.
<nckx>davexunit: Yup, that's the 2012 one ☹
<Dynamicmetaflow>Been searching Qubes issues and other places and there really hasn't been any active involvement
<Dynamicmetaflow>let me rephrase that, any conversations about guix and qubes
<davexunit>nckx: I can't remember exactly what it was about that project that made me want to just write my own bindings.
<davexunit>I'm going to guess that it was because it was written in C
<civodul>davexunit: BTW, should we publish Jakob's post? or should we wait for dustyweb's green light?
<nckx>…233 packages to go until 10k…
<nckx>(Random metric is random.)
<Dynamicmetaflow>Hoping to dedicate some time soon to understand how to create a package and contribute
<nckx>(Choose another one and we're already at 10040 so by all means party if you want to.)
<erudition>One day we'll have to add npm packages too
<erudition>Right? So that's a giant boost right there
<nckx>erudition: That's called cheating.
<nckx>Dynamicmetaflow: Yay! Especially if you're into Qubes as well, that would make a very interesting combination.
<erudition>Haha Well we want to make "guix environment" work for as many languages as possible no?
<nckx>Ideally, yes. I keep a lone FreeBSD server running as ’my npm box’ (for Web mail & other Webby stuff). I'd love to replace it with Guix.
<nckx>(Nothing against the OS, of course, but I no longer have the free time to baby-sit servers like that. :-( )
<Dynamicmetaflow>nckx: Yes! Completely, I'm hoping to write a blog post about my experience using Guix and Qubes and also ideas / progress about combining both
<erudition>nckx: yeah plus some other languages are installed with npm, like my favorite, Elm
<nckx>I hope you do. Post it to a Guix list if you do. I always enjoy reading those.
<nckx>Dynamicmetaflow: ☝
<Dynamicmetaflow>Thanks! I will!
*nckx looks up Elm.
<nckx>…JavaScript is the new machine code…
<jackhill>I didn't realize elm was npm, I thought it was haskell.
<jackhill>I'm still looking for a language the compiles to javascript but doesn't have any external JS dependencies.
<erudition>jackhill: then you've found it. Elm is that language.
<erudition>You install it with npm, but it doesn't use npm at all.
<erudition>nckx: last I checked machine code wasn't too portable, so yeah.
<nckx>It was also efficient and stuff. Good times.
<erudition>But elm will eventually compile to webassembly so, still pretty efficient
<erudition>By today's standards
<erudition>jackhill: Elm's compiler is indeed written in Haskell
<davexunit>civodul: he was planning on reviewing it today, so I guess wait?
<dongcarl>Any gnu/cross build system things I can help review?
<jackhill>erudition: awesome. I guess it should be possible to make a Guix package and install it with Guix :)
<jackhill>Now, "just" to solve ghc bootstrapping :)
<pkill9_>would it be preferred that if a local path is specified in channels.scm, then it won't use git to pull the channel but just access it directly? At the moment, the path needs to be a git repository and the changes need to be committed
<erudition>jackhill: yep it is! Npm is not required
<dustyweb>civodul: go for publishing it
<dustyweb>I think it's good
<dustyweb>I'm busy at racketschool
<nckx>Sounds fun.
<Dynamicmetaflow>That's cool! I took a class on Racket some time ago
<Dynamicmetaflow>I enjoyed the experience very much
<ryanprior>Fzer0: I have not made any progress on figuring out how to do Clojure development with guix yet. I would appreciate any tips from other users, and when I get going myself I'm looking forward to creating an illustrated guide for others :)
<orang3>hello guix! I'm packaging some NodeJS libraries. For a single file library would you install it directly inside (assoc-ref %outputs "out") or inside "out/bin" or even "out/lib"? thank you
<Fzer0>ryanprior: I made a little progress today. Try this and see if it can get you started, here goes:
<Fzer0>first find clojure, if you installed as a user then go to "cd" "$HOME/.guix-grofile/share/java
<Fzer0>to start a repl type: "java -jar clojure.jar"
<Fzer0>ryanprior: did that work for at all? I am a beginner on GUIX and clojure so I feel a little in adequate to help anyone
<ryanprior>I don't have a ~/.guix-profiles/share/java
<ryanprior>I haven't actually done a "guix install clojure" - I was trying to do it without installing it in my user profile.
<Fzer0>ryanprior: I did that at first to, but then I decided I would create a Guix Environment (which i haven't done yet) and keep my development areas seperate
<ryanprior>If I do "guix environment clojure" I do get a PATH that has "java" on it- but I don't know where to find clojure.jar if it's available.
<tune>I saw some people talking about hugo in here the other day. is anyone working on packaging that? I'd be interested in using it to make a website, but I run guix on my main machine so I have not been able to try it yet
<civodul>hey hey, new post!
<civodul>dustyweb, davexunit: ↑
<ryanprior>Oh nice, I was just wondering about guix deploy the other day. Thanks for the link.
<Fzer0>ryanprior: That is the wall i ran up against as well, so I decided to install it in my user profile using "guix package --install clojure"
<Fzer0>ryanprior: then the path i shared should work
<ryanprior>So this really shows the limits of what I understand about guix: why do you get that when you `guix install clojure` but you don't get that when you `guix environment --ad-hoc clojure`?
<Fzer0>ryanprior: good question, and I really don't know the answer but I don't think the clojure package is setup the same as others, it takes another setup to run the "program". Since ad-hoc is kind of a way to test things out maybe all the connections aren't there...i dunno
<ryanprior>Compare to the experience with Python, which is quite nice and easy to use:
<Fzer0>ryanprior: I know, I put python in my Config.scm and it worked as intended
<ryanprior>If you `guix environment --ad-hoc python` you get a nice python dev environment no problem. When I run `guix enviornment --ad-hoc clojure` it doesn't even change my PATH at all.
<Fzer0>ryanprior: there is probably someway to write the clojure package to accomplish this but I don't have the skills to make it happen yet.
<Dynamicmetaflow>Woot! I was able to install guix on Qubes VM that's running a minimal debian installation
<Fzer0>ryanprior: it sucks because I came to Guix to start clojure development because it seems to fall in line with the whole functional way of doing things. Guix, Clojure, Datomix, etc
<ryanprior>If somebody with more experience can look into this Clojure vs Python story and help me understand what's going on, that would be helpful.
<ryanprior>Because I lack the perspective to know whether this behavior is intended and good for some reason, or if it's a packaging problem, or just two different types of packages somehow?
<dongcarl>Posted on HN:
<ryanprior>Fzer0: we're gonna get this licked and then we can start building some cool tools and workflows around it =D
<roptat>orang3: you might want to wait for the node-build-system to be merged
<roptat>It should make it easier for you to package tgings
<Fzer0>ryanprior: sounds good. I am stupid enough to keep trying, at least scheme makes sense to me. I tried NixOS for a while and even though the tooling seems more mature, i have up learning the language
<Fzer0>ryanprior: did you try to guix install clojure? Could you get it working in an environment?
<ryanprior>I ran "guix install --profile=clj-dev clojure" and now I'm trying to figure out how to use or switch to the "clj-dev" profile
<davexunit>civodul: thanks for posting!
<ryanprior>Anybody know how to switch profiles?
<davexunit>I didn't have a chance to review it before it was published. it's very good but I think the code examples could be clearer.
<davexunit>the loop for creating 4 machines is too convoluted.
<pkill9_>who likes my channels.scm?
<pkill9_>i enjoy it's cleanliness
<dongcarl>Here's some good news, after working on it for half a year, my Pull Request for Guix support in Bitcoin Core releases has been merged:
<nckx>dongcarl: Wunderful!
<Fzer0>ryanprior: check out this link for development environments:
<orang3>roptat: thanks, I didn't know about that. Do you know which branch contains the node build system?
<nckx>pkill9_: Interesting 🙂 A bit too magic for me, but the magic is the point for you, so I'm glad it works out.
<ryanprior>Fzer0: thanks, I'll give that a read.
<nly>tune, i have a (naive) golang importer, but the short story is too many packages need to be added before Hugo can be packaged.
<nckx>It's a great example of how empowering a Scheme ‘configuration file’ can be compared to things like YAML which seem designed to discourage.
<Dynamicmetaflow>Hey nly, thanks for sharing your experience, that's good to know
<tune>nly: alright. thanks for the info.
<Dynamicmetaflow>I ended up installing it from source and got the binary
<Dynamicmetaflow>When you say too many packages need to be added, how many is that do you think?
<Dynamicmetaflow>May be worthwhile to get a group of people who are interested in packaging hugo and then spread the work out so we can contribute.
<nly>i see a list 52 long, but it would be less than that i expect. some might be sub pkgs judging by the urls
<Dynamicmetaflow>Well I haven't yet created a package for hugo, but I'm willing to learn and contribute. I'll dedicate somee time this weekend and read over a packaging tutorial and give it a shot
<roptat>orang3, it's on the maliing list, I sent the patch yesterday :)
<roptat>orang3, it's also on my npm branch:
<nly>no pressure :)
<pkill9_>roptat: is that for an npm importer? if so how well does it work?
<orang3>roptat: thanks again. I'll give it a look :D
<pkill9_>does anyone hav e aworkflow for permanently replacing core software components? For hypothetical example, mesa
<pkill9_>or maybe xorg
<pkill9_>or something, i'm just curious
<roptat>pkill9_, there's the node-build-system and a node importer, but the importer really isn't ready
<nckx>sneek_: later ask pkill9: What do you mean by workflow? That implies human work, which shouldn't be necessary. I also wouldn't call mesa or xorg ‘core’ by any stretch, but that's good news for you: search the manual for ‘input rewriting’. I hope that satisfies your curiosity.
<Dynamicmetaflow>So for those interested it's possible to do Qubes and Guix
<Dynamicmetaflow>I'm still figuring out other details but so far it's working
<ryanprior>Dynamicmetaflow: my understanding is you can use Qubes with pretty much any package or system. Do you mean you're creating a TemplateVM for GuixSD? Or that you've installed Guix on top of a Debian TemplateVM as a foreign distro?
<Dynamicmetaflow>I've installed Guix on top of a Debian Minimal TemplateVM. The next step I'm doing now is have applications installed by Guix show up in the appvm shortcuts.
<Dynamicmetaflow>What I want to do at a later point is create a Guix TemplateVM.
<ryanprior>Sounds great. Still based on Debian Minimal or with GuixSD?
<dongcarl>nckx: I think he's talking about:
<Dynamicmetaflow>At the moment it's based on Debian Minimal, once I become familiar with Qubes more I want to base a templatevm with GuixSD
<civodul>dongcarl: congrats, that's encouraging!
<civodul>davexunit: the loop is indeed a bit too complex
<dongcarl>civodul: Thank you! I'm definitely standing on the shoulders of giants :-)
<civodul>we all do :-)
<quiliro>saluton Guix
<Dynamicmetaflow>hola quiliro!
<quiliro>mi volas memorigan programon
<quiliro>Dynamicmetaflow: cómo estás?
<rvgn>Hello Guix!
<Dynamicmetaflow>Logre instalar Guix en Qubes en un TemplateVM
<quiliro>Ĉu Anki-0 funcias en GNU?
<quiliro>saluton rvgn
<rvgn>quiliro o/
<quiliro>Dynamicmetaflow: felicitaciones!
<quiliro>Dynamicmetaflow: y cuándo instalas guix system?
<quiliro>Dynamicmetaflow: cuál es tu siguiente reto?
<Dynamicmetaflow>gracias, tengo planes de ser un blog post eventualmente lo que aprendido para compartir y bueno tambien quiero ver si puedo mejorar la integracion
<quiliro>Dynamicmetaflow: chevere
<Dynamicmetaflow>Bueno ahora mismo lo que estoy tratando hacer es que aplicaciones que se instalen bajo guix se peude lazar en su propio VM en qubes
<Dynamicmetaflow>por lo que puede investigar debiece ser solo anadir el path de la applcacion y despues se peude lograr eso
<quiliro>Dynamicmetaflow: puedes usar guix pack
<quiliro>lo empaqueta como un ejecutable que funciona en cualquier sistema
<quiliro>si no me equivoco
<Dynamicmetaflow>si pero lo que me refiero es a esto
<quiliro>pero tiene la ventaja de que se puede hacer versiones
<quiliro>pero ahi no necesitas vm
<quiliro>aunque un vm te da todas as ventajas de guix system
<Dynamicmetaflow>usar qubes que lanza la applicacion instalada por guix
<Dynamicmetaflow>de esa manera tengo mas control sobre la seguridad etc
<Dynamicmetaflow>basicamente poder lazar todas las guix applicaciones que instalo como un VM
<quiliro>sí lo conozco....sin embargo, si qubes no es libre, no es seguro
<quiliro>imposibe auditarlo
<Dynamicmetaflow>bueno vamos a ver
<quiliro>si no tiene los fuentes disponibles y no es reproducible en todo lo que se instala (como sí es guix) no puede auditarse por lo que puede insertarse código malicioso
<quiliro>aunque para explorar parece bonito
<Dynamicmetaflow>bueno quiza qubes no seria libre
<Dynamicmetaflow>pero los vm's que va a correr si puede ser libre
<Dynamicmetaflow>bueno es lo que quiero lograr
<quiliro>eso es cierto, hasta cierto punto
<quiliro>ni siquiera instalando guix y libreboot podemos lograr llegar a todo libre...pero mientras mas cerca es mejor
<quiliro>vm -> sistema -> bios -> firmware -> microcódigo -> ...
<Dynamicmetaflow>a esto punto corro coreboot con el intel-me eliminado
<quiliro>el autor de la laptop novena habla de ese camino...aunque no estoy de acuerdo con que use software privativo porque las capas inferirores son privativas, sí creo que hay mucho más que depurar de privativo que solamente el software, el firmware cambiable y el microcógigo
<quiliro>Dynamicmetaflow: = libreboot
<rekado>ugh, finally home
<quiliro>en tu máquina corre coreboot?
<quiliro>Dynamicmetaflow: ^
<rekado>the hotel wifi was terrible and restricted, and the most important train on the way back home was cancelled so the trip took 2.5 hours longer.
<quiliro>rekado: saluton o/
*rekado finally checks Guix email
<rekado>saluton quiliro!
<Dynamicmetaflow>Tengo on X230 que corre coreboot
<quiliro>cámbialo a libreboot!
<quiliro>rekado: mi pensis ke fora de la Interreto oni ne havis vivon
<Dynamicmetaflow>no se puede
<Dynamicmetaflow>no es compatible con libreboot
<quiliro>Dynamicmetaflow: oh! :-( ¿por que? ¿require de algo privativo?
<Dynamicmetaflow>no me recurdo los detalles pero tiene que ver con el hardware
<quiliro>Dynamicmetaflow: entonces es privativo...pero me extraña...pensé haberlo visto en libreboot
<Dynamicmetaflow>hay personas que estan trabajado para serlo
<Dynamicmetaflow>coreboot y eliminando intelme es los mas "limpio" que se puede ser
<quiliro>gracias por la información
<Dynamicmetaflow>de nada
<rekado>uhm, did we really crack the 10k packages mark already? On my somewhat dated commit it says that we have exactly 10,000 packages.
<cbaines>when I looked at a recent commit, I think there were still less than 10k distinct package names
<cbaines>I think it depends on exactly how you count
<rekado>the browser at says “10,125 entries”.
<nckx>rekado: It depends how you count. Names: almost, I posted the exact number above. Names+version: 10040.
<nckx><nckx> …233 packages to go until 10k… \o/
<civodul>"guix package -A | wc -l" gives the Official Number to me
<civodul>and it says it's already more than 10K :-)
***Forza_ is now known as Forza
<nckx>Oh, it's gone up by 3 already. Wow.
<nckx>Not that I feel much for patching it now, but is there any reason for the average ‘foo-for-baz’ variant to be public?
<dustyweb>civodul: oh hey horray
<ArneBab>how to install git send-email?
<nckx>(Even with those the 10k number is safe.)
<nckx>ArneBab: guix install git:send-email?
<ArneBab>ah, thanks!
<nckx>I guess it's unusually large.
<nckx>It's insignificant <>. Does anyone know why this is a separate output?
<nckx>Is :out supposed to be smaller than it actually is?
<nckx>ArneBab: By the way, are you aware of <>? It needs a motivated reviewer; you might fit the bill.
<ArneBab>nckx: wow, that’s fzf — sounds interesting!
<nckx>I vaguely remember you craving it in Guix but don't have the Go chops to review it myself.
<ArneBab>yes, it’s on my list of things I dearly miss
<ArneBab>I’ll try to take a look once I have my patches sent out
<ArneBab>I just scratched the most annoying itch for me: generating man-pages multithreaded.
<usney4>keep it real
<usney4>hey guys
<minall>Hello guix!!
<nckx>ArneBab: Which man pages? Or do you mean the profile hook (which takes longest here too)?
<ArneBab>the profile hook
<nckx>usney4: Supdog.
<nckx>ArneBab: Excellent.
<nckx>o/ minall.
<nckx>(usney4: Let's keep a semblance of diversity here; s/guys/guix/)
<minall>How can I see the source code of a driver, or change it on guix?
<nckx>minall: If it's a package, ‘guix build --source $package’.
<nckx>This will print a tarball (which you can extract) or a checkout (which you can browse directly).
<minall>Yes it is!! Thanks, and I can change it freely?
<nckx>You can modify a copy of the sources and use ‘guix build $package --with-source=…’ (see the manual for the syntax).
<nckx>I'm not sure if you have to ‘re-pack’ a tarball; I presume so.
<quiliro>minall: good would be nice if you documented in order to help others
<quiliro>bye all.....ĝis la revido!
<nckx>quiliro: o/
<nckx>minall: --with-source= is good for experimentation (that said—I've never used it), but if you want to make your changes more permanent (e.g. keep using a modified version of that driver in your OS configuration), you'll need to add a snippet or phase to patch the sources programatically. I'm not sure where or if this is documented. You'd use something like: (define-public my-foo (package (inherit foo) (name "my-foo") (source …)))
<rvgn>rekado Why so soon? Vacation over?
<rvgn>nckx Sorry about the other day. I had to go. Could we discuss about the VM now?
<nckx>rvgn: Now it's my turn to go to bed.
<nckx>At this hour of day, I know. It's not even midnight yet! o/
<rvgn>nckx Cool!
*rvgn hopes someone else could help him with VM inside virt-manager
<null_radix[m]>so i finally got sway to run on nix
<null_radix[m]>but i don't know how this issue tracker is suppose to work... lol
<null_radix[m]>is it possible to close an issue?
<pkill9_>do you mean guix?
<sneek_>Welcome back pkill9_, you have 1 message.
<sneek_>pkill9_, nckx says: What do you mean by workflow? That implies human work, which shouldn't be necessary. I also wouldn't call mesa or xorg ‘core’ by any stretch, but that's good news for you: search the manual for ‘input rewriting’. I hope that satisfies your curiosity.
<null_radix[m]>also is there any wiki or something where i can document how to install sway?
<mbakke>null_radix: Send an email to, where NNNN is the issue number to close it.
<null_radix[m]>yeah guix... lol
<null_radix[m]>thanks mbakke
<pkill9_>nckx: by workflow i mean, for example, do you set GUIX_BUILD_OPTIONS environment variable when running `guix system reconfigure` and `guix package`, or maybe you maintain an alternative version of guix with those replacements
<pkill9_>nckx: are they not considered core components? I think they are for a lot of desktop packages
<usney>is guix good for older computers?
<ArneBab>my outgoing changes queue is finally empty again.
<usney>I am currently using sparky linux on my 2005 laptop I just use it as a server mainly
<usney>I am thinking about installing guix on it
<null_radix[m]>mbakke is there any good place to write notes on how to install sway? you need to install it with desktop-services but without gdm
<nckx>rvgn: I hope someone does; I wouldn't consider myself a libvirt expert, I tend to prefer qemu myself.
<null_radix[m]>which i don't htink is obvious to someone new
<rvgn>nckx That's okay.
<pkill9_>usney: i think guix needs 1.5gigs of RAM at minimum, it may be somewhat sluggish in executing the guix commands as well, idk
<dmarinoj>usney: disk space and wireless
<sneek_>Welcome back dmarinoj, you have 1 message.
<sneek_>dmarinoj, vagrantc says: jetson tx2 probably requires binary blobs for boot firmware (e.g. u-boot) so probably can't be integrated into guix
<mbakke>null_radix: Maybe write an email to Ideally we should fix GDM so that it works with Wayland instead of documenting workarounds.
<dmarinoj>vagrantc: thanks!
<usney>the diskspace is 90 gigs and 2gigs of ram I plan I using xfce as the desktop. Would it still be slow with xfce?
<null_radix[m]>ok cool!
<ArneBab>usney: I see higher disk utilization and the reproducibility features require some more cycles than with a purely binary distro, so for the old computer I’m not sure it would be a good fit.
<ArneBab>usney: normal operation won’t be slower than now
<ArneBab>it’s only the package management which might (but then it won’t be slower than yum).
<usney>Oh I see
<nckx>pkill9_: Just our respective biases at work, I think 🙂 ‘Core’ for me means even lower-level than that. It's only relevant here because the input-rewriting method I linked does not work for implicit dependencies, i.e. everything provided by the build system (glibc, gcc, &c, the stuff you don't explicitly add to inputs).
<usney>well the drive is 7200 rpm ArneBab
<ArneBab>usney: I see 182GiB used disk space on my root disk
<usney>so I should try gnewsense instead?
<ArneBab>can’t really judge the disk speeds, since this is my homeoffice machine so I gave it a nvme disk …
<usney>I had a bad experience so far with guix when I installed it via usb
<usney>it was really really slow
<nckx>pkill9_: I also had literally no knowledge of anything called GUIX_BUILD_OPTIONS. I personally don't work like that: I'd write a Scheme file that does what I want (in this case: a custom package variant in my system.scm for example), not fiddle around with custom invocation options that I need to script or remember or export and forget.
<dmarinoj>usney: someone wrote a user shepherd daemon to periodically run `guix gc'
<usney>this was on my laptop from 2012
<ArneBab>yes, gnewsense might be a better fit for the old computer.
<ArneBab>usney: when did you install it, and what was slow? Installing packages?
<lfam>I remember someone posting a system service to run arbitrary commands on boot but I can't find it now. Does anyone have a solution for this? Something like a replacement for '/etc/rc.local'?
<usney>installing packages too for ever and the installation took for ever too
<nckx>pkill9_: You can also maintain your own channel (that probably has lower overhead than you think).
<ArneBab>however I don’t know how recent gnewsense is
<nckx>I'd recommend all that over magic GUIX_FOO options nowadays.
*nckx → really 😴 now.
<pkill9_>nckx: i would also, but in this case i was thinking how you might do it for all the packages that a given package is a dependency of
<usney>ArneBab, I installed guix to a usb stick so it wasn't internally installed
<pkill9_>nckx: yea i like to avoid environment variables where possible
<mbakke>lfam: Something like this?
<usney>installing icecat took a long time and then it ended up not showing up in the menu
<ArneBab>ah, yes, then it will be slow. most USB sticks have pretty horrible access characteristics.
<pkill9_>i think the best way in this case would just be mainting a separate revision of guix
<mbakke>Though it should be converted to a "one-shot" service.
<usney>so I should try again internally? ArneBab
<ArneBab>for the laptop yes
<pkill9_>but what i think would be neat is being able to run `guix pull` with a flag telling it to replace a package with another
<ArneBab>usney: for the old server, maybe try one of the free distros here:
<lfam>Thanks mbakke, I'll take it :)