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<lsl88>rekado: sorry, someone was testing totem and switched to debian :(. When the installation finishes, I will go back to Fedora :/
*lsl88 should not do things in parallel, is monocore :)
<pkill9>ItsMarlin: i think you need to create a package that puts it in <package>/share/xsessions (or whatever the path is) and install that to your system profile by putting it in your guix config and reconfiguring it
<recj>my build is taking forever for the new kernel is this normal ?
<recj>i'm assuming so because it is the kernel
<ItsMarlin>It seems .xsession works
<sebboh>I hope icecat gets a continuous release thing going. Meanwhile, what is guix going to do about the lack of a browser?
<pkill9>guix has chromium (ungoogled-chromium)
<pkill9>recj: the kernel takes a while to build yea
<pkill9>not as long as chromium or icecat though, heh
<pkill9>it takes a few hours
<recj>a few...... hours???
<pkill9>yea, you might want to wait until the build server is ready to distribute it
<recj>im getting iwlwifi so it wouldnt be packaged
<sebboh>chromium can't compete with this: . IceCat can. Ugh..
<recj>i used firefox for the longest but recently started using chromium even though i know google is botnet lol
<sebboh>There could be a whole side conversation here. But meh. I'm just bringing it up with y'all guix-system folks as a reminder for something you know: browsers are a big deal. I "want" a 100% guix-provided system but I "must have" Firefox (nightly) or IceCat (preferably from ff-nightly). So, that's my user story.. I am making a list over here about whether or not I can just boot guix on the host and my old
<sebboh>debian image in a vm. At home. So far, it's looking good except the aforementioned.
<sebboh>s/IceCat/some hyptothetical more up-to-date IceCat/
<str1ngs>daviid: how feasible would it be to use g-golf with say gtk and gtk webkit in the future?
<pkill9>sebboh: what does firefox nightly have that icecat doesn't?
<pkill9>the guix-packaged icecat i mean
<pkill9>sebboh: you could make a package that wraps the firefox nightly build
<str1ngs>sebboh: you can create a service for /lib64 this should allow you to run binaries for traditional linux
<str1ngs>that is if you are downloading nightly binaries
<pkill9>i just tested it with my fhs service and it works
<sebboh>Nightly binaries aren't reproducible builds. How do I say this.. I have made one-time financial contributions to Mozilla, but I am a auto-renew member of the FSF. :)
<str1ngs>how does FHS service work pkill9 ?
<sebboh>All things in time.
<pkill9>str1ngs: it puts a glibc interpreter in /lib64 and /lib (32 bit) - it's glibc with ldconfig re-enabled and generates an pointing to a bunch of libraries and puts it in /etc/
<str1ngs>sebboh: you could also use a docker image. and share /tmp/.X11-unix/
<pkill9>str1ngs: here it is if you're interested
<str1ngs>pkill9: I think that would be useful for sebboh
<pkill9>i will contribute it to guix, but i don't know how to write a service
<pkill9>well, a proper service
<pkill9>with customizable options etc
<str1ngs>is ldconfig even needed?
<pkill9>yes, because otherwise it won't look for libraries we want it to look for
<pkill9>it's disabled in the guix glibc package so that it doesn't find it on foreign distributions and end up loading the foreign distro's libraries
<pkill9>you can't just put the libraries in the FHS directories (e.g. /lib) i tested it
<str1ngs>I just thought with runpath and I think it defaults to looking in the linker directory as well. you would'nt need
<str1ngs>what if you used /lib64 ?
<sebboh>ok this is a teachable moment. on guix system, why wouldn't the type of binary mozilla publishes for firefox work? Something about glibc? Huh?
<str1ngs>either way I'm guess you know best. I was just surprised you needed to use
<pkill9>it looks for libraries in it's prefix, which on guix is /gnu/store/...-glibc
<pkill9>but on most distros the prefix is set to /
<str1ngs>sebboh: it has to do with the fact guix does not have a standard linker path. or library paths
<str1ngs>pkill9: right right that makes sense. and what does guix user for sysconf?
<str1ngs>still /etc ?
<sebboh>Why does it affect foreign binaries but not guix binaries?
<str1ngs>because guix binaries have the linker and runpaths hardcoded
<str1ngs>try with readelf -ld $(which bash)
<sebboh>got it. These paths came up a little when I was messing with LFS some time back. I have seen this topic dimly.
<str1ngs>see RUNPATH and INTERP
<str1ngs>pkill9: this looks interesting and useful
<str1ngs>funny story, I went so far down the LFS path. I ended up first writing a package manager in bash from it. then I rewrote it in golang.
<str1ngs>it has some interesting features. but sadly not as advanced as Guix is today.
<linux345>How to make a aarch64 GuixSD rootfs
<erudition>So I started looking into Nix more because it seems to have more documentation on the various pieces of software I'd need if I were to switch to GuixSD. Which would be awesome because I desperately need rollbacks.... But then I realized - Nix has apt! Does Guix have apt/dpkg? In a working fashion? That would be awesome, assuming I could install arbitrary debs that way, for all the missing pieces I'd need
<buenouanq>if you think you want or need more or other PMs, you don't yet understand Guix
<rvgn>Hello Guix!
<buenouanq>sup nerd
<erudition>buenouanq: um, what? I'm pretty sure I understand Guix; that doesn't mean I have time to manually package every piece of software it doesn't have
<erudition>buenouanq: I don't "want or need other PMs", I need other /packages/. I don't care how I install it, as long as it can be installed without repackaging. Running a foreign PM seems a good workaround for this, but I'd be glad to hear your alternative solutions?
<rvgn>The GNU Privacy Assistant (GPA) is not working.
<rvgn>Shoot! I have no idea why message is posted twice.
<erudition>buenouanq: This is, after all, what Nix does, and Nix does not differ from Guix in the inability to natively handle software that comes in another format like a deb, for example. Unless your comment was actually meant to imply that everything out there is already available for guix, which is just silly.
<erudition>rvgn: Didn't appear twice on my end
<rvgn>I see.
<rvgn>The error I get with GPA is
<raingloom>hey, i'm trying to modify the Blender package and am running into the same problem as this fellow:
<janneke>Hello Guix!
<str1ngs>hello janneke
<user_oreloznog>Hi janneke !
<str1ngs>janneke: for your browser experiments are you using the guile-gi repo? or do you have another repo you are using?
<str1ngs>janneke: I'm curious, because I'm wondering how much of nomad I could potentially rewrite in guile-gi
<janneke>str1ngs: i'm hoping to have a very simple guile-gi + emacsy thingy one of these days.
<janneke>str1ngs: i started using updating emacsy to gtk+-3 and was thus using C initially, then tried guile-gi and when that segfaulted i added webkit1gtk to guile-gnome.
<janneke>str1ngs: i almost have a minimal example using guile-gnome+webkit1gtk when mike fixed guile-gi, so i'm finishing the guile-gnome example and then rewrite it to use guile-gi
<str1ngs>gotcha that makes sense. I think guile-gi is definitely optimistic moving forward. mabye I'll play with the browser.scm in guile-gi . one thing I'm worried about though is lack of DOM introspection
<str1ngs>currently with nomad I have two implementations on in QT and one in GTK. QT UI is much easier to use and qtwebchannels is pretty easy to introspect with. GTK on the other hand requires to use of web extention and RPC generally in the form of DBUS
<str1ngs>unfortunately QT use qtwebengine and i'm haveing a hard to getting that included into Guix.
<str1ngs>I know that's detailed. I guess I'm wonder when using guile-gi how DOM introspection would work
<str1ngs>here's some reference for DOM introspection
<janneke>str1ngs: that would be great -- my current path is going towards text editing, because browser.scm is already almost good enough for my needs at this time
<janneke>i'll be looking at integrating/using/extending emacsy and editing, possibly even wrapping scintilla
<str1ngs>scintilla for syntax highlighting or more features?
<roptat>hi guix!
<rekado_>sebboh: we have a couple of browsers in Guix: next, eolie, epiphany, icecat, ungoogled-chromium, etc
<janneke>str1ngs: good question -- it's a mostly uninformed "need full text editor, don't want to start writing everything initially"
<janneke>possibly it's a bad idea...i need to figure some things out here, new area :-)
<str1ngs>maybe gtksourceview would be good as well. but
<str1ngs>I use it in nomad. has built in scheme syntax highlighting which is intresting
<str1ngs>I think though scintilla would have more features though
<janneke>i want to have an emacsy editor, but also a "corporate" editor, not sure if scintilla helps more or is more of an obstacle :-)
<str1ngs>that's why I complete kept nomad to just web browsing. and using emacs as the editor
<str1ngs>to interact with browser I can just local connect to the guile socket
<str1ngs>via geiser usually
<str1ngs>the browser has M-x as well
<janneke>nice, not sure where this is going, but fun :)
<str1ngs>guile is fun :)
<str1ngs>janneke: here's a screeshot of nomad and gtksourceview
<str1ngs>sorry is a direct link
<efraim>Looks like snapd and therefore snaps depend pretty heavily on systemd
***MatthewAllan93_ is now known as MatthewAllan93
<roptat>PirBoazo, salut :)
<PirBoazo>Do you know a blog post about how guix is organized? where i found the # information about user, system etc ...
<PirBoazo>Hello roptat
<roptat>what do you mean? organisation of guix code, configuration? (you can speak French if you prefer ;))
<PirBoazo>roptat . Organisation du systeme, par exemple o`sont les binaires...
<roptat>je ne crois pas qu'il y ait de billet de blog à ce propos... mais il y a une présentation (en anglais) que je peux te retrouver si tu veux
<roptat>ah, et quelqu'un sur linuxfr est en train de découvrir Guix et écrit ça en ce moment :
<roptat>sinon le manuel est une vraie mine d'or :)
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<PirBoazo>Merci roptat ;-)
*kmicu je ne parle franceue. But still likes to see conversations in multiple languages here.
<PirBoazo>Hello kmicu
<kmicu>Hi PirBoazo: (*^▽^)/
<PirBoazo>Bonjour civodul
<civodul>salut PirBoazo :-)
<civodul>rekado_: the important Python scripts in glibc 2.29 are quite small...
<civodul>i remember dannym replaced a bigger script in libgit2
<PirBoazo>cidovul : j'ai une question sur la configuration réseau d'une interface
<rekado_>civodul: I added a “python” executable to python-on-guile, but I’m not sure it will work for the glibc scripts.
<rekado_>glibc comes with a Python module that’s used by some of the scripts
<rekado_>and I’m not sure python-on-guile deals with PYTHONPATH as expected.
<rekado_>anyway, my modifications to python-on-guile are available here:
<civodul>rekado_: oh nice
<civodul>perhaps we should update our package to refer to your repo?
<civodul>PirBoazo: vas-y :-)
<civodul>mbakke: looks like staging hasn't been merged yet, right? :-)
<PirBoazo>sur ma machine virtuelle je voudrais fixer une IP pour pouvoir accéder en ssh , je ne trouve rien dans la doc à ce sujet
<civodul>il y a static-networking-service pour faire ça
<civodul>ça correspond à ce que tu veux faire ?
<PirBoazo>Oui cela ressemble à ce que je cherche
<civodul>cool :-)
<PirBoazo>que doit il se passer quand on supprime un utilisateur dans config.scm ?
<PirBoazo>Si la référence à l'utilisateur a bien été supprimé le HOME est toujours présent ainsi que le répertoire au niveau systeme pour les binaires
<PirBoazo>civodul : je viens de lire le paragraphe de doc sur static-networking-service , pas claire comment modifier la configuration existante.
<PirBoazo> (append
<PirBoazo> (list (service gnome-desktop-service-type)
<PirBoazo> (service openssh-service-type)
<PirBoazo> (set-xorg-configuration
<PirBoazo> (xorg-configuration
<PirBoazo> (keyboard-layout keyboard-layout))))
<PirBoazo> %desktop-services)))
<janneke>str1ngs: ah, that's nice; i'll definitely consider it as a base for an editor, alongside emacsy's textbuffer/gap-buffer, gdk text buffer and scintilla ;-)
<janneke>this may be just a sweet spot!
<jonsger>Sleep_Walker: :)
<civodul>jonsger: yay!
<janneke>jonsger: \o/ and thanks
<jonsger>The most difficult excersise with this was the name: gash or guile-gash :P
<civodul>bah, we had a syntax error in the .service file
<civodul>i was pretty sure that even a trivial change like this was going to be invalid
<rekado_>the documentation for service files wasn’t clear enough in my opinion
<rekado_>I looked it up when you proposed the change and it looked fine to me.
<rekado_>civodul: my memory is failing me: didn’t we discuss including the locales with “guix pull”? We went back and forth on whether to do this, and IIRC you ended up agreeing that installing it would be the right thing to do.
<rekado_>am I misremembering?
<civodul>rekado_: 'guix pull' pulls in glibc-utf8-locales, which may or may not be enough
<civodul>pulling all of glibc-locales is not an option in terms of disk usage
<civodul>so recently i discussed having a special 'guix package' option to install locales
<civodul>or a parameterized glibc-locales package
<rekado_>(personally, I was never truly happy with glibc-utf8-locales.)
<rekado_>a parameterized glibc-locales package seems like the right thing to do
<rekado_>I wonder if this means that the derivation that “guix pull” computes would then be dependent on the current locale (which would probably be bad).
<roptat>oh, I just remembered a question nobody answered last time: do derivations computed by guix pull depend on the entire repository, or on specific parts of them?
<roptat>or more simply, if I change a package definition, do I have to rebuild the manual?
<civodul>rekado_: my proposal was separate of 'guix pull':
<civodul>you'd do: guix install glibc-locales --with-arguments=locale=fr_BE.utf8
<civodul>roptat: 'guix pull' creates a DAG of derivations, which are all as focused as possible
<civodul>so changing a package does not change the manual derivation
<civodul>the guix-packages-* derivations are still coarse-grain, though
<mbakke>civodul: Re: staging, it turns out Mesa is broken on non-x86_64. I will add myself to Berlin later so that I can investigate the arm and aarch64 failures (no logs in Cuirass.. :-().
<rekado_>arm/aarch64 failures might just be OOM problems
<bgardner>Good morning Guix! I have a guix system installed with exim on it. I followed the docs for how to apply a config (basically (exim-configuration (config-file (local-file "path-to-exim.conf"...), and 'guix system reconfigure' emits "Config file is ..." and names a path to the store with the correct exim.conf. But "exim -bV" says exim is still using the package version. And I did do "herd restart exim"
<bgardner>after reconfiguring.
*janneke updated guile-gi to mike's fixed git -- now both the editor and webkit examples work
<civodul>mbakke: maybe it's not that broken, as we've seen in the libdrm case
<efraim>my firefly is down so I can't investigate right now :(
<civodul>mbakke: Mesa on i686 has test failures:
<civodul>aarch64 still building
<mbakke>civodul: Can you check armhf too?
<mbakke>I have a that disables the failing i686 test, waiting to see if we need it on armhf or aarch64 too.
<mbakke>*I have a patch that
<civodul>mbakke: it builds on aarch64: /gnu/store/a86z2gf497yxxg2csspvfdxn99rl067z-mesa-19.0.4
*civodul tries armhf
<civodul>guix weather is too slow, and i think this is in part due to the increased timeouts, rekado_ :-)
<civodul>the Cuirass requests still time out, but it takes longer
<civodul>heh, np ;-)
<rekado_>civodul: what do you think about separating the web interface from the builder?
<rekado_>clearly there’s a bug somewhere, but I wonder if it makes sense to keep the current architecture at all.
<civodul>wouldn't that prevent the web ui from getting info such as the current queue?
<civodul>the alternative is a multiprocess architecture like that of Hydra, with processes communicating via the database
<civodul>which isn't great either
<civodul>but maybe there's a middle ground, dunno
<davexunit>separating the web interface sounds like a good idea
<rekado_>in my previous web projects I always used something like redis to maintain a queue that’s shared by independent worker processes.
<davexunit>I was about to suggest redis
<civodul>ah ok, maybe that's the way to go, then
<rekado_>don’t know if sqlite has sufficient facilities for this purpose.
<civodul>if redis is the right tool, let's use it, there's guile-redis
<davexunit>there's additionally flexibilty to be gained with the separated web UI, as well, since you could now scale the front and back ends independently.
<davexunit>I don't think the cuirass web frontend would will need load balancing any time soon but hey it would become an option ;)
<g_bor[m]>Hello guix!
<davexunit>the web ui could run on a teeny tiny machine, though. and the beefy hardware can be saved for the backend that's doing the real work.
<g_bor[m]>I am just catching up
<g_bor[m]>with the discussion. Redis is a good idea. Another option could be to expose the things needed through an api. I believe that current queue could be exposed that way.
***rafael is now known as Guest94118
<PirBoazo>Hello where can i find the actions to do to suppress an user. ?
<civodul>PirBoazo: pour enlever un utilisateur, il faut l'enlever de la config et faire « reconfigure »
<civodul>le répertoire d'accueil est à enlever à la main (ce qui est logique)
<PirBoazo>le profile aussi '
<PirBoazo>ou est ce la commande guix gc qui prend en charge sa suppression ?
<rubic88>Hi all. I've installed emacs onto my foreign distro, then installed several fonts (font-inconsolata font-adobe-source-code-pro). However emacs doesn't appear to see them, and they don't appear when I run the fc-list command.
<rubic88>I've installed glibc-locales and set my GUIX_LOCPATH
<rekado_>rubic88: have you run “fc-cache -f” to refresh the font cache?
<rubic88>rekado_: Ah, I was missing that step. Thanks!
<civodul>PirBoazo: le profil aussi est à enlever à la main
<civodul>« guix gc -d » en retirerait les anciennes générations quand même
<PirBoazo>cidovul merci
<civodul>civodul :-)
<PirBoazo>Bonsoir, bye , Merci A+
***rafael is now known as Guest94911
<mbakke>civodul: Did the Mesa armhf build return yet? :-)
<rvgn>Test Message
<mbakke>rvgn: Loud and clear.
<rvgn>mbakke LoL Thanks!
<rvgn>Was testing IRC<-->XMPP Gateway
<bluekeys>Does anyone here use guile-emacs?
<bluekeys>I fancy trying guile-emacs, but I'm new to lisp/scheme and emacs. Is it considered stable enough for day to day use and are there any known gotchas?
<brendyn>i dont know if it even builds at the moment
<brendyn>its not complete or stable at all
<brendyn>noone has done anything with it for a few years
<bluekeys>brendyn: That sounds about right, I think it failed when I tried it recently. I assumed I'd done something wrong. I'll stick with standard emacs then.
<civodul>mbakke: sorry i was cooking :-)
<civodul>mbakke: looks like it worked just fine: \o/
<civodul>so only i686 needs a fix
<mbakke>civodul: Excellent, will push the fix shortly without touching the other derivations. :-)
<bgardner>Good morning Guix! I have a guix system installed with exim on it. I followed the docs for how to apply a config (basically (exim-configuration (config-file (local-file "path-to-exim.conf"...), and 'guix system reconfigure' emits "Config file is ..." and names a path to the store with the correct exim.conf. But "exim -bV" says exim is still using the package version. And I did do "herd restart exim"
<bgardner>after reconfiguring.
<str1ngs>bgardner: I think in most cases reconfigure will restart herd services. but maybe not in all cases. is it possible for you to reboot so the new system profile is applied completely?
<marlon`>guix, the qutebrowser version on the repos is ancient
<bgardner>str1ngs: I have a backup running, I'll bounce as soon as that finishes. I figured that would be next
<str1ngs>bgardner: I'm not 100% sure on the effect reconfigure has on services. if you want to avoid rebooting. maybe someone else knows more.
<bavier>marlon`: there have been some hurdles in packaging newer versions
<ItsMarlin>so, just noticed i can simply clone guix's repos and use the packages as guidance for writing my own packages
<ItsMarlin>i'm a dummy
<ItsMarlin>i just got a newer version of qutebrowser going. the one in the repos is ancient
<ItsMarlin>it's before 1.0
<bavier>ItsMarlin: send a patch if you can :)
<ItsMarlin>Sure, how do i do that?
<bavier>ItsMarlin: if you've made changes to the guix repo, you can commit and send the output from 'git format-patch'
<bavier>ItsMarlin: there's more info about contributing in the manual
<ItsMarlin>Oh, ok. i'll take a look at it later
<mbakke>civodul: Could you also check the status of 'nss' and 'mariadb' for armhf-linux on berlin?
<Swedneck>does the guix version of gimp disable webp support?
<bavier>Swedneck: more likely that it just doesn't enable webp support; I don't see 'libwebp' in the package inputs
<Swedneck>ah, do you know if this is due to licenses or just because the packager didn't include that?
<bavier>Swedneck: we have a libwebp package, so probably no license issue. I'm guessing it just hasn't been done yet. patches welcome! :)
<Swedneck>will have a look at the package definition, i doubt i'll be able to do anything that isn't straight up horrible though
<Swedneck>what's the command to view the package definition again?
<bavier>it may be a easy as adding the input; gimp's configure script will probably handle the rest
<bavier>Swedneck: 'guix edit gimp'
<Swedneck>yeah i don't even know what an input is in this context
<bavier>do you see the "inputs" list?
<bavier>you could add ("libwebp" ,libwebp) to that list
<Swedneck>can i just save edits made using `guix edit gimp` without issues?
<bavier>usually not (I'm not completely happy about that), unless you've done the command like `./pre-inst-env guix edit gimp` from a git checkout of guix
<Swedneck>oh right i remember actually making a package definition before, it was complex as hell
<Swedneck>(and i didn't even do it the "correct" way, i took a bunch of shortcuts)
<davexunit>it's pretty easy honestly
<davexunit>now, making a debian package, that is complicated.
<Swedneck>it's been improved?
<davexunit>what's been improved?
<nckx>*barges in* yeah the name ‘guix edit’ borders on false advertising in its current state.
<davexunit>it should be 'guix view' or something
<Swedneck>i mean, being easier than "standard" distros isn't exactly difficult :P
<jonsger>or "guix less" :P
<bavier>davexunit: +1
<davexunit>you can only edit the file when you're working on a git checkout
<Swedneck>`guix "edit"`
<nckx>I think even systemd offers a copy-to-etc-then-edit command, not saying we should emulate that, but that's the level of UX magicks folks expect nowadays.
<bavier>if it automagically created/added to a personal channel, that'd be cool
<nckx>Swedneck: lol.
<davexunit>guix may seem complicated compared to programming language package managers that don't know how to do anything right, but it's the easiest distro package manager I've ever dealt with by a huge margin.
<Swedneck>i mean i actually managed to get a definition into the repo, which speaks for how easy it is
<Swedneck>(at least for stuff that doesn't need complex definitions)
<civodul>nckx: "guix edit" could really copy the file in a writable location, create a channel for that, or something
<Swedneck>s/repo/main guix channel/
<nckx>‘Why do I need to learn a full obscure programming language just to define some metadata fields’
<davexunit>civodul: that would be cool
<nckx>*pushes button*
<nckx>*mountains move*
<nckx>Oh that's why.
*kmicu is surprised to see that Guix/Nix is easier when packaging blobs in AUR on a FHS distro is much more easy. Guix is simple, not easy.
<davexunit>nckx: if that was a koan this would be the part where the old master smiles.
<civodul>telling users to use ./pre-inst-env has always been terrible IMO
<nckx>civodul: I have some very rotten bits for that somewhere, but they predate even channels… And I'm not sure where somewhere is right now TBH.
<Swedneck>nckx: not having to use guile would be nice, it's very offputting for those who've never seen it before
<civodul>nckx: if you stumble upon those rotten bits, give them a go! :-)
<davexunit>but that would be self-defeating
*nckx agrees adamantly with davexunit.
<Swedneck>well, it's a barrier for entry
<nckx>Swedneck: That's just objectively not true, since I'm part of that set and was not offput in the least.
<bluekeys>Hi guix.
<davexunit> I get that viewpoint, but I wouldn't be using guix if it weren't written in lisp.
<Swedneck>nckx: whicch set?
<nckx>Swedneck: ‘those who've never seen it before’.
<davexunit>certainly there's always room to improve the onboarding experience
<nckx>I'd never seen Lisp on a screen before installing GuixSD(!).
<Swedneck>ah. fair, but that's a sample size of 1
<nckx>Only in an old textbook in 2003 and that doesn't count.
<nckx>Well, sure, but my anecdote cancels out your anecdote…
<bluekeys>How can I see what packages I have installed using guix install ...
<pkill9>bluekeys: `guix package -I`
<bluekeys>pkill9: ty
<kmicu>Swedneck: are you saying that loading (rsfi, rnrs, ice-9, ice-t, srfi, …) to package something is not as easy as PKGBUILD like ? 😺
<Swedneck>kmicu: not sure what that means
<civodul>kmicu: i get your point, but i think you're exaggerating :-)
<kmicu>Guix/Nix is simple but not easy.
<nckx>Swedneck: I've packaged for Gentoo, Exherbo, Nix, and Guix, so I don't really know the wider world of packaging. What are you used to?
<kmicu>Guix/Nix is honest and explicit and that requires more work with packaging.
<nckx>☝ all turing-complete (pseudo-)DSLs, no coincidence.
<Swedneck>nckx: i'm not used to anything, i'm talking from the perspective of someoen who wants to package stuff but doesn't have any previous experience
<nckx>I'm woefully unfamiliar with the rest.
<nckx>I'm just not sure how much of it is ‘packaging *is* hard, and it would be *harder* with a less featureful language’.
<nckx>That is a horrible sentence but (or perhaps precisely because?) is basically my opinion on the matter ☺
<Swedneck>well what i'm thinking is that it would be nice to have something like rpm specs that could be used for at least simple stuff
<katco>swedneck: guix is the first distro i've written packages for. i did know common lisp coming in, but not scheme, nor guile. i would rather invest in learning a subset of an actual language than a custom DSL that's useless outside of it's distro's ecosystem.
<Swedneck>or maybe wisp? i realize you guys may be fond of the parens but they really make it "scary"
<bluekeys>Guix is the first disto I've bothered to try packaging an application for.
<Swedneck>bluekeys: same
<bluekeys>I agree the parens are scary, I'm getting over it though.
*nckx mumbles… it's the first one I've enjoyed packaging for…
<katco>swedneck: for many of us, it being a lisp, with parens, is a feature. i would be upset if it were wisp
<Swedneck>katco: hence why it should be optional
<davexunit>well guile is a multi-language VM so you could absolutely write your own code in wisp and it would work just fine.
<kmicu>Swedneck: guix can also import simple stuff.
<Swedneck>kmicu: oh yeah that's cool, although i don't think that works for github repos?
<bavier>no, we don't have a "universal" importer like that
<kmicu>Swedneck: a yasnippet/skeleton could generate basic ((((((())))))) for us though.
<Swedneck>if it was possible to import simple git repos where the building steps are just `make; sudo make install` that would be amazing
<bavier>I toyed with an arch updater a while back that could probably be made into an importer
<nckx>Swedneck: That's pretty close to an ‘anything’ importer: guix import ~/thing/foo. Plus some API synopsis/licence magic (that may or may not be nonsense, but still).
<bluekeys>Lisp was on my bucket list, so it was a big motivator to me switching distros.
*nckx dreams.
<bluekeys>kmicu: What do you mean guix can import stuff?
<kmicu>bluekeys: “The guix import command is useful for people who would like to add a package to the distribution with as little work as possible—a legitimate demand.” —
*kmicu adores Guix Manual.
<kmicu>A legitimate demand 😹
<Swedneck>maybe we can go a step further and just have AI write definitions :)
<bluekeys>kmicu: ty.
<nckx>kmicu: Why'd you miss me of late? Any particular request?
<kmicu>nckx: #guix had a little flood of folks with questions. I missed your helpful answers.
<nckx>That's sweet.
*nckx blushes.
*kmicu (◍•ᴗ•◍)
<nckx>I should have two hands & be able to contribute more in about 2 weeks \o/.
<nckx>No more every-day-is-type-like-a-pirate-day.
*kmicu really enjoyed reading Gnus manual; a lot of funny bits in it. In my xp they are very helpful when text is very long and ‘boring’.
<nckx>kmicu: GNU's or gnus?
<nckx>‘ImportError: No module named builtins’ — oh Python.
<kmicu>Gnus. E.g. “One thing that seems to shock & horrify lots of people is that, for instance, ‘3 d’ does exactly the same as ‘d’ ‘d’ ‘d’.”
<civodul>kmicu: the Gnus manual is great, it's a lot of fun
<civodul>(what's less fun is fuzzy pattern matching on deep sexps with silent errors)
*nckx 's only really ‘read’ Gui{x,le}'s manual which is also fun when needed (humour in a collaborative document is always hard).
*bavier has also enjoyed reading guile's manual
<rekado_>re wisp and parentheses automation: you can write (simple) package definitions as JSON and use an importer to generate Scheme code.
<kmicu>(I’m still using Gnus, the program is a terrifying mutable complexity. Only the manual is great and gives joy 😺)
<rekado_>we also have a yasnippet for “package...TAB” that generates a skeleton.
<rekado_>I guess only very few of us have used the JSON importer; don’t know if it actually makes things easier for newcomers.
<kmicu>Swedneck: ^^
<rekado_>the problem is often with the software that is to be packaged, not with the language we use to describe the build.
<rekado_>for some packages it might be nice to have syntactic sugar that turns bash into a scheme builder expression.
<kmicu>Swedneck: you could write JSON and then import it. That’s almost like writing RPM spec files ;)
<rekado_>like a gash-build-system of some kind
<rekado_>Swedneck: the manual has an example. Look for “JSON, import” in the index.
<rekado_>(hit “i” in your info viewer to access the index)
<rekado_>it doesn’t support any value for “arguments”, which is where you’d spend most time for non-trivial packages.
<Swedneck>can definitions be exported?
<rekado_>what definitions and exported where?
<Swedneck>like do the reverse of `guix export
<rekado_>… there’s no “guix export”
<ngz>Hello. One ".cpp" file in mame has: "#include <X11/extensions/XInput.h>", and build reports "fatal error: X11/extensions/XInput.h: No such file or directory", even with "xinputs" as a package input. Do you have any idea about what I could do?
<Swedneck>argh brain thinks one thing fingers write another
<Swedneck>the reverse of `guix import`
<rekado_>ngz: you may need libxi
<rekado_>Swedneck: I don’t know what this means.
<rekado_>do you mean to generate JSON from a Scheme package definition?
<nckx>ngz: find finds libxi-1.7.9/include/X11/extensions/XInput.h here.
<ngz>NB: compiling mame takes about 2 hours, so I'd rather not shoot in the dark ;)
<rekado_>that would be lossy
<ngz>rekado_: So, libxi instead of xinputs?
<nckx>(And, for some reason, in mate as well, which I guess is an unholy union of some kind…?)
<nckx>ngz: Yes.
<ngz>rekado_, nckx: OK, thank you
<nckx>(Not sure about ‘instead’ for your precise package, but for that particular file: yes.)
<kmicu>(After a while eyes adjust to ((())(())(()))((())()((((((()))))))) spaghetti, then you start using paredit/smartparens-like plugin and then you want to have parens everywhere and Haskell syntax makes you uneasy, you try Lispell, but that’s depracated so you follow Hackett and Shen development cuz you want to hug those parens so badly everyday, everyday…)
<quiliro>i have just finished installing GSD
<kmicu>sneek_: What is GSD?
<sneek_>Someone once said GSD is a deprecated name for Guix System.
<nckx>I spend more time thinking about indentation and ‘:’ in wisp (basically, translating everything back to brackets anyway) than actually thinking about code. And, again, I'm no lispbeard.
<nckx>sneek_: Correct. Botsnack.
<quiliro>i have a video problem when installing i3-wm on reconfigure
<quiliro>i have installed the correct driver
<rekado_>nckx: re wisp: same!
<nckx>(IIRC GSD was instavetoed by rms and never actually used, but IDNARC.)
<quiliro>01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. CN896/VN896/P4M900 [Chrome 9 HC] (rev 01)
<rekado_>nckx: that’s correct
<rekado_>rms said GSD sounds like we’re instigating rivalry between GNU and the BSDs
<rekado_>or something
<rvgn>Hello Guix!
<bluekeys>Hi rvgn
<quiliro>rekado_: true...but guix system is too long and to be confused with guix
<rvgn>Can someone help me with this please?
<nckx>rekado_: Huh. Wow. I never made that phonetic link, and I use BSD daily. Weird.
<quiliro>is there a shortcut? maybe GS?
<nckx>Much less confusing.
<rvgn>bluekeys o/
<nckx>quiliro: Guixystem ;-)
<rekado_>quiliro: “guix system” is just “guix” … but, you know, for systems. There is no confusion. It’s all the same.
<nckx>‘Phonetic compression’ brb filing patent.
<bluekeys>What is IDNARC? Duckduckgo is letting me down
<nckx>bluekeys: Made-up nckx for I Do Not Always Recall Correctly.
<nckx>Nothing to do with narcs, I'm afraid.
<quiliro>rekado_: it confused me at first and newbies i introduce the concept still confuse terms until they get it down well
<quiliro>it would be better to have a short term such as GS...would anyone oppose that i use that ?
<quiliro>but i really do prefer GSD because i feel it is a recognition to BSD, not a controversy
<kmicu>quiliro: Do you use GL or L instead of GNU/Linux or Linux? Or W for Windows?
<rekado_>quiliro: it’s not called GSD, though.
<quiliro>with them
<nckx>quiliro: You're free to do so anyway, but I think we'll have to disagree on what's ‘less confusing’ here. And GSD is simply not the name.
<rekado_>quiliro: nobody here knows what GS means. If you don’t want to type “Guix System” you can define an abbreviation in your editor.
<nckx>People searching for GS(D) will be at a disadvantage.
<quiliro>i do not use GNU/Linux...i use just GNU
<quiliro>anything more that 2 syllables will make it boring
<nckx>Gee Es Dee.
<kmicu>Better let’s solve that video issue ;)
<quiliro>Gnu slash Linux
<quiliro>nckx: true
<nckx>Guixtem it is.
<quiliro>nckx: that is cool
<kmicu>Staying consistent is less confusing. Guix System is in official resources so Guix System it is.
<ngz>quiliro: Can't we assume that Guix means Guix System whenever that matters? I usually write "Guix on a foreign distro" otherwise.
<nckx>I'm not advocating it but we can't stop you anyway ;-) Just remember to tell people not to search for GS/GSD/….
<quiliro>kmicu: the video issue has come about after 0.16
<quiliro>0.16 worked well
<quiliro>nckx: ok
<kmicu>quiliro: could you describe the issue? Do you see a black screen afer login or something like that?
<quiliro>ngz: i like your take but feel "Guix on a foreign distro" is too long
<quiliro>maybe calling the distro Guix and calling the program foreign Guix would be nicer for me
<ngz>Of course, but soon enough, nobody will need to use these words anyway ;)
<quiliro>ngz: why?
<nckx>GuiLo… Gui-xpat… Nope, my puns are dry.
<quiliro>don't get it
<nckx>quiliro: Which one?
<ngz>quiliro: Because everyone will use guix as a distribution, right?
<quiliro>ngz: oh! it'd be nice
<quiliro>nckx: GuiLo… Gui-xpat?
<quiliro>but getting back to my video...i have this problem with 2 different video cards
<quiliro>the current one is via
<nckx>One's a reasonably clever Cantonese pun, the other a horribly lazy English one and I apologise for both. Go fix your vidz ☺
<quiliro>and i have the viafb module loaded
<quiliro>nckx: oh...i get the english one now...could you explain the cantonse one? i do not speak that language
<nckx>quiliro: I could be missing something but only find ‘i have a video problem when installing i3-wm on reconfigure’ in the recent history. Could you elaborate?
<quiliro>i rebooted with a previous grub entry
<nckx>(Gweilo = not-quite-polite Cantonese slang for ‘white folk’, i.e. … foreigners. Badum-tsh.)
<ngz>While I'm at missing inputs, when I tried to package "scintilla", I got a build failure "missing glib.h", even though "glib" is in the inputs. Any clue about this one?
<quiliro>it had only a bare-bones guix system init
<bluekeys>nckx: I remember seeing a link to a mailing group with explanation of quiliro's problem
<rvgn>Sorry, I got disconnected for a while. Did anyone reply to me in that time?
<quiliro>but when i boot with a lightweght-desktop guix reconfigure it just flashes the screen
<nckx>rvgn: No…
<quiliro>bluekeys: i will check the forum...thanks
<nckx>I'm like the disappointing version of sneek.
<sneek_>Sneeky bot running on Guile version 2.0.11 using bobot++ 2.3.0-darcs
<rvgn>nckx Okay
<bluekeys>? I'm confused. Ignore me, the link was to rvgn's problem.
<nckx>(OK was @ sneek)
<rvgn>bluekeys Did you send me any link or you were talking about the one I sent (
<bluekeys>I sent no links
<nckx>rvgn: They meant your link but thought someone else posted it ☺ Confusion everywhere!
<kmicu>Cuz it’s late!
<bluekeys>I was talking about the link you sent 0_o
<rvgn>bluekeys Okay.
<nckx>It's always late in #guix.
<nckx>Comes with being ahead of our time.
<kmicu>It’s about GNOME so I cannot help. :/
<quiliro>kmicu: my problem is not about gnome
<quiliro>it is about X
<kmicu>quiliro: I was referring to rvgn’s issue.
<rvgn>kmicu My problem is with GPA which is a GNU application.
<rvgn>Not actually a part of GNOME.
<quiliro>anyone would please suggest what i should look for?