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***daviid is now known as Guest95307
***Guest95307 is now known as daviid
***raghavgururajan_ is now known as rg
<raghavgururajan>@reckado Thanks!
***raghavgururajan is now known as rg
***rg is now known as gururajanraghav
***gururajanraghav is now known as raghavgururajan
<amz3>raghavgururajan: what is the subject of the post you want to do?
<amz3>anyone knows how one would go about generating a .pc file using waf?
<raghavgururajan>@amz3 I am writing a guide to install guixsd with full disk encryption (incl. /boot) on devices powered by libreboot. I thought it will be useful to others.
<amz3>nevermind for the .pc file, I will ask upstream.
<pkill9>anybody interested in this?
***gururajanraghav is now known as raghavgururajan
<raghavgururajan>How to report about a package that contains/recommends non-free services?
<raghavgururajan>"Online Accounts" section of GNOME System Settings contains options for Google, Facebook etc.
***catonano_ is now known as catonano
***atw` is now known as atw
<raghavgururajan>How to report about a package that contains/recommends non-free services?. "Online Accounts" section of GNOME System Settings contains options for Google, Facebook etc.
<vagrantc>mail ?
<raghavgururajan>ISSUE: I am able to view script files (.sh) via file manager and ls command. But if I execute by ./, I am getting "no such file or directory" error. What to do?
<bavier>raghavgururajan: check the shebang
<raghavgururajan>@baiver Pardon?
<raghavgururajan>you mean #! ???
<raghavgururajan>What is the correct syntax/format of the shebang?
<bavier>raghavgururajan: yes, the '#!...' line, the interpreter is probably not available
<raghavgururajan>I tried to execute the same script in Trisquel Live. It worked. But not in GuixSD.
<raghavgururajan>So how can I make it available in my system? Is there a package for it that I can install?
<bavier>raghavgururajan: you can change the shebang line, /bin/sh is available on GuixSD but not '/usr/bin/env sh', for example
<raghavgururajan>Ah I see. I will try that. Thanks!
<atw>I'm encountering some boot issues, which I'm able to solve in the REPL that spawns. But is there a way to resume booting? Or do I have to just restart
<atw>nevermind, I found a solution. activate-etc logged its argument, allowing me to re-run (activate-etc "/gnu/store/...")
<atw>eureka! I've installed GuixSD on my VPS atop Debian!
<pkill-9[m]>you installed it on debian from debian?
<atw>yes, someone on this channel mentioned that they had done it
<raghavgururajan>Wait a sec. @atw. Do you mean Guix or GuixSD?
<atw>both, I suppose. I followed to install Guix on debian, then ran guix system init to isntall GuixSD
<raghavgururajan>Woah! I am so confused.
<vagrantc>wonder how much debian cruft you'll have leftover...
<atw>some, no doubt. If it's vestigial, I don't care too much. I can delete it if I want
<raghavgururajan>How can two distro be available in same partition or directory??
<janneke>atw: well done :-)
<atw>raghavgururajan: because guix puts just about everything into /gnu/store, so e.g. Guix has a GRUB entry like /gnu/store...linux... and Debian has a GRUB entry like /boot/...vmlinuz. Largely, the systems should not conflict
<atw>thanks janneke :) I would offer to write this up, but (1) I would have to go through it again and properly document and (2) to what extent should this sort of thing be encouraged?
<raghavgururajan>Ahh! Got it.
<raghavgururajan>@atw. But what about files in /etc. Won't they conflict? Since most files in /etc have similar names across distros, guixsd and debain overwrite each other's setting?
<atw>raghavgururajan: good point, that was exactly the problem I was running into before! on boot, guixsd was populating /etc with the procedure activate-etc. I had to step in and rename or delete things like /etc/ssl
<atw>what Guix package contains dig?
<roptat>atw bind:utils I think
<raghavgururajan>Hmm. I see.
<atw>thanks roptat
<pkill-9[m]>does anyone have a system setup to run virt-manager i can see the configuration of as an example?
<pkill-9[m]>my system isn't giving virt-manager running as my user permission to connect to the libvirt daemon
<vagrantc>i was running virt-manager and libvirt before ... don't you need to add your user to a group or something?
<vagrantc>at least, i think that's how i configured it
<vagrantc>i disabled it to decrease my system size...
<pkill-9[m]>yep, the problem was i didn't specify a group for the libvirt dameon to run as, the manual gives an example
<pkill-9[m]>then i needed to add a polkit agent to the environment
<pkill-9[m]>now it works \o/
***rekado_ is now known as rekado
<rekado>raghavgururajan: the concept of a “non-free service” does not make much sense in the realm of free vs proprietary software.
<raghavgururajan>@rekado Got it. What I was concern about is, do facebook, google etc integration options require use of non-free program or api?
<raghavgururajan>@rekado Also, facebook and google are SaaSS right? So technically current gnome-online-accounts endorsing/aiding SaaS?
<pkill-9[m]>damn heisenbugs, still feels nice when the bug goes away though
<pkill-9[m]>how do you mark a bug report as resolved?
<rekado>pkill-9[m]: you send email to
<kmicu>raghavgururajan: “However, most services' principal functions are communicating or publishing information; they are nothing like running any program yourself, so they are not SaaSS.”
<raghavgururajan>@rekado So GuixSD, via gnome-online-accounts, giving a way for SaaSS to harm GuixSD users. Because, by principle, free software should neither contain non-free program nor endorse use of non-free program (such as SaaSS).
<olivuser>Hej fellas. Does it make sense to install guixsd on an ssd and have data stored on a separate sata drive (as in "mounted to /home") - that is to save money since larger ssd drives are more expensive and I already have a sata drive.
<raghavgururajan>@kmicu Users have to connect to facebook and google apps/program which are non-free. This harm the users.
<roptat>raghavgururajan, and you connect to nextcloud which is saass ;)
<raghavgururajan>Quoting from the article: "There is one case where a service is directly comparable to a program: when using the service is equivalent to having a copy of a hypothetical program and running it yourself. In this case, we call it Software as a Service (SaaS), or Service as a Software Substitute (SaaSS — this term explains more clearly what the issue is), and such a service is always a bad thing."
<kmicu>raghavgururajan: no proprietary code is executed on your computer. That’s explained in the linkend article. You are not endorsed to intall any proprietary program.
<raghavgururajan>Well, nextcloud is free software even though it's SaaSS
<roptat>if you don't run it yourself, what's the difference? You don't control your computing either
<kmicu>olivuser: sure, no need to keep everything on one disk.
<roptat>but I guess we should not try to solve that alone, what do other FSDG distros do?
<raghavgururajan>""If some of them are nonfree, that usually doesn't directly affect users of the service. They are not running those programs; the service operator is running them. In a special situation, these programs can indirectly affect the users of the service: if the service holds private information, users might be concerned that nonfree programs on the server might have back doors allowing someone else to see their data. In effect, non
<raghavgururajan>@roptat, well, at least I know that there are no direct privacy issues. Such as facebook and google program have built-in codes to invade user privacy.
<kmicu>rag Please keep in mind we are not stating that unethical services are not an issue in general only that it is not a free software issue.
<raghavgururajan>@kmicu I understand
<kmicu>As a users we have no idea what is implemented on a not self-hosted Nextcould instance. We can be abused in the same way as on Google/Facebook services.
<kmicu>(E.g. Mastodon/Pleroma are also free software but as an operator/admin of such instance I can track and sell data about my users. Free software cannot protect us from those issues.)
<roptat>actually, why is facebook SaaSS? What kind of software does it substitute?
<roptat>(not that I wish to defend facebook, it's blocked on my network :p)
<roptat>it looks like we're talking about the wrong issue, no?
<dustyweb>rekado: ok, your suggestion was great actually
<dustyweb>here's what my manifest looks like now
<dustyweb> (map (lambda (pkg-sym)
<dustyweb> (specification->package (symbol->string pkg-sym)))
<dustyweb> '(autossh
<dustyweb> borg ;; ...
<dustyweb>which is really nice
<dustyweb>no more messing with "find that package!"
<kmicu>There is also if ‘SaaSS’ is not clear eneough.
<rekado>dustyweb: neat! What about the performance problems you reported? Is this still noticeably slower?
<dustyweb>rekado: weirdly only happened with compiling from emacs
<dustyweb>was pretty much instant when I ran it via the command line
<raghavgururajan>1) A free software should neither use nor allow to use a non-free software via it's own.
<raghavgururajan>2) Here, gnome-online-accounts, a supposedly free program, is allowing a user to use a non-free program (fb, gl etc). In this case, the non-free program happens to run remotely. Therefore, a supposedly free program is allowing use of a non-free program.
<rekado>raghavgururajan: google is not a non-free program. It’s a service that might even be built on free software.
<rekado>a service is not a program.
<raghavgururajan>3) Thus I suggest for changes to be made to that program.
<kmicu>raghavgururajan: check it has many examples for SaaSS.
<rekado>from the perspective of a user of a service there is no difference between a service built with non-free software and a service built with free software.
<olivuser>Does it make sense to have the guixsd system on a ssd and data stores separately on sata?
<pkill-9[m]>yeah, i have my home directory on a separate partition
<olivuser>But since guix frequently rebuilds and thus writes on the ssd, doesnt it wear it off (quicker than other distros)?
<roptat>I'm still trying to build the install image for the overdrive, but it fails with "qemu-system-aarch64: -nographic: No machine specified, and there is no default"
<kmicu>olivuser: it can be quicker but in a sense that it will take 15 years not 20 to wear SSD off. 😺
<kmicu>If that could help I had Nix on SSD and then Guix on SSD for more than five years and SSD looks healty as new.
<rekado>olivuser: Guix builds things in /tmp and then copies the result to the store.
<OriansJ>olivuser: let us do some math. 5000 writes per cell (if you went cheap; more if you use a better flash chip) times 200GB divided by the max write bandwidth is the max useful life of your ssd
<OriansJ>One can also map temp to memory and incur no disk writes during builds
<kmicu>In other words SSD lifespan for desktop users is non-issue.
<OriansJ>*unless you love writing dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda every hour*
<olivuser>Alright, thanks fellows :-)
<olivuser>But then I guess it speeds up build processes considerably, right?
<OriansJ>olivuser: if you want max build speed, RAM is always faster than SSD (more bandwidth and lower latency)
<OriansJ>and it depends entirely on the program being built as very few builds are disk constrained
<OriansJ>For example Chrome and Firefox have javascript optimization passes which effectively are just scrapes of the top 2000 websites' javascript code and thus tend to be bottlenecked by your Internet connection
<pkill-9[m]>if i were to mount a tmpfs over my /tmp directory, would a swapfile be just as fast as the normal /tmp directory on disk if the tmpfs fills up?
<OriansJ>pkill-9[m]: well effectively Linux will swap chunks of tmpfs to disk to prevent out of memory situations but generally if you are not facing memory exhustion consistently it will be faster. The only concern is tmpfs will be cleared on poweroff/reboot/shutdown and some programs put data there instead of the XDG standard location.
<OriansJ>The big performance impact with tmpfs is that it uses memory that the kernel could use to cache data it predicts you will need shortly but like all predictors; they can be less effective than proper understanding of what data is essential for the performance critical sections of your workload.
<OriansJ>If memory exhustion is a concern and you are not sure; just default to disk and let Linux deal with guessing what data needs to be cached in RAM for optimal performance. Or if you are running off a $5 MicroSD card with less than 1K write cycles; Mapping /tmp to tmpfs and disable swap entirely will extend your system lifetime considerably. (Swapfiles/Swap Partitions do more damage to SSD lifetimes than anything else)
<raghavgururajan>kmicu: Woah! That article is so good. I am still understanding it. Thanks for the info.
<OriansJ>But given extremely memory constrained environments like RaspberryPIs; I suggest getting a Seperate USB drive to use for Swap. Also take the time to know the specs of your storage devices (Bandwidth, Latency, Capacity, Lifetime constraints [write/read cycle limits] and generally recognized failure modes)
<pkill-9[m]>ok thanks for explaining
<janneke>dannym: just got gcc-core-4.6.4 built; nothing beyond that yet and it needs a cleanup
<janneke>also, we may have reasons to keep gcc-2.95 (e.g., have the option to drop tcc), don't know
<rekado>gcc 2.95 could come in handy for the Haskell bootstrap.
<janneke>rekado: another reason to keep it, good
<g_bor>Hello guix
<g_bor>I have just seen a security advisory on openssh. Do we have anything to do?
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<kmicu>( ^_^)/
<ng0>hey, how do you deal with makeinfo in guix itself? do you just assume a certain version (since I found no version check) or...? I'm trying to decide what's the best way to integrate for gnunet, version checking was a mistake I found
<ng0>s/in guix/for guix
<civodul>ng0: just do the normal Autoconf/Automake thing
<civodul>makeinfo pretty much never changes, so a version check is unnecessary
<ng0>i have a 5.x macro I needed to backport at least for one system
<ng0>right now I check for 5.x but that's "bad" as at least one system is still on 4.8
<civodul>4.8 is really old though, isn't it?
<ng0>I think writing backwards compatible texinfo + what you suggested sounds good.
<ng0>but still in NetBSD base
<ng0>you get to use pkgsrc gnu texinfo otherwise
*civodul merges 'staging'
<rekado>civodul: thank you!
<janneke>hmm, my freshly built gcc-core-4.6.4 ICEs on simple files -- giving up for now
<mbakke>civodul: Yay!
<civodul>i guess we were all waiting for it to happen :-)
<civodul>we should have documented criteria for merging, based on what 'guix weather' reports
<mbakke>civodul: That would be useful.
<mbakke>civodul: Any opinions on the GCC7 patches? I'm considering squashing the related FTBFS patches into one.
<civodul>ah, lemme see!
<civodul>you addressed the cross-compilation issue yesterday, right?
<mbakke>civodul: Yes, I've built hello for armhf and aarch64 \o/
<amz3>How can I have readline when working with guile inside 'guix enrivonement guile'
<OriansJ>(use-modules (ice-9 readline)) (activate-readline)
<civodul>amz3: "guix environment guile" creates an environment to work *on* Guile
<civodul>if you want to work *with* Guile, use: guix environment --ad-hoc guile
<amz3>yes I have that in ~/.guile but when running ./meta/guile it complains there is no readline module
<civodul>or: guix environment --ad-hoc guile guile-readline guile-colorized
<amz3>I try to fix the coverage issue, I work *on* guile
<bandali>hey roptat, i asked this on guix-devel a few weeks ago but i thought i'd try here too: any news about dns config?
<roptat>bandali: we wanted to salk about it at fosdem, but had a lot of other things to do... we're going to have it eventually :p
<roptat>I'm working on one of tge build farm server just now, so I'll work on that after I can get that server running
<bandali>roptat: cool, thanks for the update :)
<mikadozero>I have guixsd installed, have installed programs using config.scm and been reading the manual. Does guixsd have a way to manage configuration files? Can it manage my emacs configuration for example?
<OriansJ>mikadozero: well it does make it easy to install git and use variables like hostname in your configuration files
<OriansJ>Provided your emacs configuration is something you take the time to specify in a configuration file(s) then yes it can ensure that configuration when applied
<OriansJ>Think of Guix as an extension to the guile programming language and anything you can do in a general purpose programming language can be done with Guix
<mikadozero>OriansJ: Is there a section in the manual that covers that. I would like to put it into practice on my system.
<mikadozero>OriansJ: I am new to guile how would it be used in guixsd for managing configuration files? Is there documentation I can look at?
<OriansJ>mikadozero: Essentially Configuation files would just be a package you install
<OriansJ>or a system definition if you want
<mikadozero>OriansJ: So I should read the section on packaging and create my own packages for configurations?
<OriansJ>mikadozero: yes
<mikadozero>OriansJ: What do you mean when you say "or a system defintion"?
<OriansJ>you might find this useful
<OriansJ>mikadozero: you can define you entire system state as a system definition in GuixSD and when applied it ensures everything is setup the way you like
<OriansJ>Which means services, packages and files can be set at application
<OriansJ>the issue you will likely run into is that items in the store are immutable and you'll have to write a little function to create files outside of the store in a guix package definition
<mikadozero>OriansJ: That link looks like it is for the guix package manager and not the guixsd. I will spend more time reading that manual as well.
<Elon_Satoshi>Where can I read about Chromium's freedom issues?
<OriansJ>mikadozero: GuixSD uses guix like Arch uses Pacman, Debian uses Apt and Red Hat uses Yum
<bavier>Elon_Satoshi: the recent thread on the guix-devel list ;)
<mikadozero>OriansJ: You are refering to /etc/config/config.scm and guix system reconfigure /etc/config/config.scm
<OriansJ>mikadozero: configuration files in GuixSD can be anywhere but yes that is the standard location
<OriansJ>One can also define modules and other source files for it to load
<mikadozero>OriansJ: Thank you. I am going to read the documentation and them try creating my own configuration packages and including them in my config.scm.
<OriansJ>Think of Guix configurations as code that extends Guix into a program that produces an exact system state that you desire.
<Elon_Satoshi>thanks bavier
<OriansJ>You can also throw in arbitrary guile code to execute if you feel guix constrains what you want to do
<OriansJ>as Guix is interpreted by Guile while it runs
<Elon_Satoshi>So there's an ungoogled chromium, will there be an ungoogled webengine?
<mikadozero>OriansJ: Then I should also read more of the guile documentation.
<OriansJ>mikadozero: depends on how much control you want and how much hand holding
<mikadozero>OriansJ: Thanks again.
<OriansJ>Generally start with straight Guix and you might find something annoying and if you want you can easily make a function in Guile for Guix to solve that problem for yourself and you might have something we all could use.
<kmicu>mikadozero: that use case is not supported yet.
<efraim>I built guix on PowerPC (32 bit), still have to test build to hello
<kmicu>mikadozero: You can manage dotfiles on your own but there are no convienient tools like in case of NixOS (yet).
<OriansJ>efraim: nice
<OriansJ>kmicu: One needs only add a guile function that takes a Guix plain file and writes it to the arbitrary location. But guix file isn't exactly a high priority for me.
<OriansJ>as soon I finish mes-m2; the guix bootstap will be dropping down to under 1MB
<kmicu>OriansJ: “Only” xD
<OriansJ>kmicu: well the 200byte bootstrap still requires more work plus we still need to do the ARM and PowerPC ports
<OriansJ>as you can see
<efraim>I'm apparently on a time crunch, the manual suggests we support powerpc :p
<OriansJ>efraim: *Cracks whip* You better have the ability to boot past grub!
<kmicu>OriansJ: you are familiar with the system so that’s “only/just” simple engineering effort to you and big NOPE to a newcomer.
<efraim>First I have to get magic grub for PPC to work
<efraim>Might be easier to adjust the manual
<OriansJ>kmicu: you might be right *Takes 20 lashes for forgetting*
<OriansJ>kmicu: it also is one of those features missing in Guix that don't require much code and I am really hoping more new users take up the mantle of contributing to making Guix better
<atw>OriansJ: that DAG is helpful :)
<OriansJ>atw: yep, we already have the Mescc up part done and the M2-Planet and below parts done; we just need to finish that connection and Guix instantly becomes the world's easiest to bootstrap Operating system (Take that DOS)
<kmicu>OriansJ: that’s why we should not scare newcomers with phrases like ‘it’s only zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms, that’s a trivial recursion’ or ‘just execute this 24 lines or magic Guile invocations; you see how easy is that’.
<OriansJ>kmicu: probably why I am usually banished to #bootstrappable for those who think Hex-monitors are cool
<Elon_Satoshi>How do I monitor a bzip2 compressed log live? as in `tail -f /var/log/guix/drvs/57/*-mariadb-10.1.37.drv` if it was uncompressed
<roptat>Looks like I finally managed to install guixsd on the overdrive!
<vagrantc>roptat: i found i had to explicitly add some modules to the initrd for sata to work
<vagrantc>but maybe that's no l ogner true
<vagrantc>i can dig up the config.scm if it's useful
<roptat>I used the config from the maintenance repo directly
<roptat>It works :)
<roptat>I'll put a root password and open a port
*vagrantc should compare against it and maybe update
<roptat>I think it's correctly installed now
<roptat>I opened a port so I just need to move the machine to its final location
<mbakke>Is IceCat working properly with the grafted sqlite? It fails to build against 3.26 without -DSQLITE_ENABLE_FTS3.
<atw>how did I not know about guix-build-log-mode! It's great!
<Elon_Satoshi>Has anyone else had trouble building mariadb-10.1.37?
<mbakke>Elon_Satoshi: A fix for the MariaDB issue was merged just today.
<Elon_Satoshi>oh, guess i'll do a guix pull
<bzp>Hello everyone, I'm using i3 and lxappearance, what should I install to have gtk themes available in lxappearance?
<pkill-9[m]>atw: what's guix-build-log-mode
<atw>pkill-9[m]: emacs major mode for viewing guix build logs. it gives some fontification to "starting phase ..." lines and org-like per-phase collapsing
<pkill-9[m]>ah nice
<kmicu>(It’s like )
<atw>I'm updating a package and a patch is no longer needed. I deleted it, but it's causing compilation of gnu/tests/install.scm to fail. Is there something else I have to change?
<roptat>remove the reference from gnu/
<ngz>Hmm vlc doesn't build for me because of an error in vpx.c.