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***LucidDreamZzZz is now known as luciddreamz
<tune>youtube-dl is gonna need an update to work with youtube again it looks like
<tune>they must've changed something on the site
<tune>works for me on other distros but I suspect guixsd hasn't updated it as recently
<efraim>I think we're on 2018.11.07 as of yesterday
<graftin>Does anyone have experience with Atheros WiFi cards on the Thinkpad T400? I got this laptop so I could run GuixSD, but it's rejecting my card because it's not whitelisted (even though I read that the AR5007EG is supposed to work). Libreboot isn't an option for me.
<luciddreamz>graftin, it is bios rejecting card i had tough time and gave up
<luciddreamz>with old thinkpad
<luciddreamz>good luck
<luciddreamz>other than that love my thinkpad
<graftin>luciddreamz: Yeah, it's an 1802 error. I read about it, but am not aware of any solutions less extreme than stripping apart the whole thing to get at the flash chip needed to Libreboot it (which could brick it in the end).
<luciddreamz>yeah it was more than a few years back trying to get non whitelisted card working with modded bios, what a royal pain
<luciddreamz>never got it working
<luciddreamz>probably should have taken another crack at it, but it was already older model and not likely to have another bios release
<graftin>What hardware do you run GuixSD on?
<graftin>Do you run it with blobs?
<luciddreamz>i have GuixSD running in virtualbox ATM seeing if I like it
<luciddreamz>thinking of trying on desktop so I would need nvidia there
<graftin>A Thinkpad T60 or X60 can be librebooted using only software (no fiddling around with the internals), but they have 3 GB of RAM tops IIRC. That would work for me (Emacs + Stumpwm takes up 300MB of RAM at most), but web browsing is necessary and the mainstream options are all so bloated that it wouldn't work. Are there any lightweight browsers which have a full feature set (adblocking, Emacs keybinds, all websites work)?
<luciddreamz>other oprion I am trying is just ght guix binary... that is on a LFS in virtualbox
<luciddreamz>ugh can i type...
<luciddreamz>the only one i am aware of available as a substitute is a FF derivative
<luciddreamz>heck i dunno though maybe konqueror
<luciddreamz>i wouldnt think that is lightweight so you got me htere
<graftin>I use FF and it's a piece of crap like Chromium. Conkeror is outdated and doesn't work anymore. I'm glad that work is being done on Next Browser; my only wish is that it would be Common Lisp all the way down like the Closure Browser.
<luciddreamz>yeah thats the one Next Browser
<luciddreamz>I would try that one
<graftin>Seeing as it's Webkit-based and uses Common Lisp (bloated in the 80s, ultra-slim now considering what you get out of the box with it), I have high hopes for it being exactly what I want.
<graftin>Too bad it fails to install properly on Devuan.
<luciddreamz>yeah same here, I wonder if it is available yet on Guix
<graftin>(I need to get away from this distro - the core is functional, but the packages are ancient)
<luciddreamz>I am just liking the package management on LFS
<graftin>Linux From Scratch? Doesn't that mean that there is no package management other than what you install and script manually?
<luciddreamz>I'm used to moldy binaries with Debian anyway :)
<luciddreamz>Yeah well you can just install the guix binary on it and voila
<graftin>I'm not. I came from Arch because I wanted to get away from bloated Systemd-ful distros and I had a bad experience using Void as a daily driver.
<graftin>I had problems with that as well.
<luciddreamz>hmm I have heard mixed reviews on Void
<luciddreamz>you can build LFS systemd-less, that's what I did
<luciddreamz>the documentation explains the binary installation of Guix quite well
<graftin>Void is very cleanly Unixy. I like that it sticks to principles instead of going for a hodgepodge, but Unix is the wrong hill to die on, and Linux isn't even very Unixy. It also doesn't have enough people to maintain it, so although it's simple, you still end up fixing a lot of things yourself. Just use a BSD instead, tbh.
<luciddreamz>Yeah and then you get ZFS...
<graftin>Ooooh, you installed LFS and then installed the Guix package manager binary. Cool!
<luciddreamz>It is quite a match I thought I would try it and then i tried the full GuixSD
<graftin>That declarative package management and rollback capability and everything Lisp... *drools*
<luciddreamz>yeah I had not tried Nix before but having a Guile driven system is pretty cool
<luciddreamz>my first real exposure
<graftin>Give me a concurrent capabilities-secure shell in Guile (shells with all of those features have been done, but not in one package), a rewrite of the Emacs ecosystem in Guile (yikes), a working Hurd, a native compiler for Guile like Chez Scheme (or at least a TJIT or partial evaluator), and a McClim-like GUI system for Guile, and I'd be a very happy man. Imagine, a secure, distributed Lisp-based system with full interactivity.
<graftin>Ok, the Emacs ecosystem rewrite is a step too far, but the rest could be done and would bring computing back to where the experimental forefront was in the late '80s before Worse Is Better won.
<graftin>IIRC, Hurd is already object-oriented (in the GOOPS sense) and has capabilities. Now it just needs to pervade through the rest of the system and make use of Guile's concurrency features.
<luciddreamz>I feel like that would be a step in the right direction :) I am more or less a Guile nubi but I want to learn as much about Guix as I can
<luciddreamz>I feel like the functional approach is overlooked
<luciddreamz>what is the lightweight emacs bundled with Guix called have you seen that at all?
<luciddreamz>I don't know a lot about it TBH
<graftin>Guile-Emacs? It's Emacs, but the C portion is rewritten in Guile. It doesn't have many advantages other than that it can be extended in languages other than ELisp.
<luciddreamz>Oh OK... That I have not heard about
<graftin>Still experimental. It's supposed to be stable now, but slow to start up. That should, of course, change with Guile 3.0.
<luciddreamz>I could have sworn it was also written in Guile though
<graftin>There are millions of lines of Emacs Lisp already doing a fine job. Even translating Emacs Lisp to the similar Common Lisp is a challenge; translating it to a Scheme (Guile) effectively means rewriting it. The core of Emacs is written in C, but, for example, this IRC client that I'm using is written entirely in Emacs Lisp. So is my shell, my programming plugins, etc.
<luciddreamz>hmm is that ERC?
<graftin>Yep :)
<graftin>There are several more ELisp IRC clients in MELPA, too! Are you also using ERC?
<graftin>And yeah, the functional approach is overlooked. I haven't even read SICP yet, but reading The Little Schemer has made me a far better programmer because it taught me to think differently.
<luciddreamz>I have ERC going on this account too... i managed to find one with SASL too
<graftin>SASL? That uber-parallel static-single-assignment functional language?
<luciddreamz>OK I will definitely check that one out I have heard of it...
<graftin>Warning: it's weird.
<luciddreamz>It is just added security for freenode (i guess) :)
<luciddreamz>hehe OK that's good i think
<luciddreamz>GNU Zile that is what I was trying to think of
<graftin>I meant the language SASL. So is the book above. It does feel at times like you're being talked down to (recursive programming in Lisp is done via cons-descending, after all), but especially the later stuff on continuation-passing style, the Y combinator, and the metacircular interpreter are eye-opening.
<graftin>Ah, Zile!
<luciddreamz>ooh hmm never hear of that language
<luciddreamz>i guess that is Lua hmm
<graftin>Nifty little thing. I like that it comes preinstalled with a lot of distros and instantly gives me full Emacs keybinds so I don't have to open Vi or accidently close myself out of Nano because of its pseudo-Emacs keybinds.
<luciddreamz>hmm lol
<luciddreamz>i am presently trying to get through the TICO manual
<graftin>What monster made C-x the command to exit Nano?
<graftin>Oh, TECO, the original Emacs scripting language?
<luciddreamz>and MIT Emacs manual
<luciddreamz>hehe yeah right...
<luciddreamz>I like to know where things came from
<luciddreamz>yes TECO excuse me hehe
<graftin>I recently got a copy of Linear Algebra with APL. APL is one of the ancient languages, the beginning of a totally separate branch of functional languages, one which focuses on parallel array processing.
<luciddreamz>hmm is that Alonzo Church?
<graftin>No, Kenneth Iverson. It's a math book because APL, despite its name (A Programming Language), was originally invented as an alternative notation for tensor calculus.
<luciddreamz>I'm trying to learn all this..
<graftin>Alonzo Church created the lambda calculus.
<luciddreamz>OK that sounds interesting
<graftin>I presume you use Emacs. There's an excellent gnu-apl package available via MELPA. If you hit C-\, you can select APL-Z, which allows you to hit . to input weird characters (.. for just a period). C-c C-k brings up an APL keyboard map.
<graftin>(You'll also need to install the GNU APL interpreter, of course)
<graftin>Emacs really does indulge my language weenie side because there's support for every programming language known to man. Is this what addiction looks like?
<graftin>Look up "A Deep Dive Into APL" for a quick tutorial.
<luciddreamz>I don't get why vi(m) got so popular hehe
<luciddreamz>OK cool :)
<graftin>Worse Is Better.
<luciddreamz>strange but true...
<graftin>(IDK if you've seen this before)
<luciddreamz>nope checking it out
<luciddreamz>Lucid, Inc
<graftin>(Oh yeah, M-x gnu-apl will bring up the interactive APL environment)
<luciddreamz>good already ;)
<luciddreamz>I know MELPA is not set up yet... I have to get APL that looks cool
<luciddreamz>what the...
<luciddreamz>It looks very strange :)
<graftin>Don't be scared off. It's worth it.
<graftin>(The blog post is good; stay away from the comments section, it's cancer)
<luciddreamz>OK definitely checking it out
<luciddreamz>yeah this an interesting perspective, not often if ever have i heard anything like this :)
<graftin>Another mind-bender is Prolog. Maarten Van Emden's blog has a wealth of info on Prolog and its relatives.
<graftin>Also Io.
<luciddreamz>heh yeah I guess you couldn't google Io
<graftin>There's another language which goes just as far as Io and even further in some respects called Kernel. It looks like Scheme, but is waaaay more powerful.
<graftin>Now that's an ungoogleable name!
<luciddreamz>hmm yeah that could be tricky for sure :)
<graftin>Luckily, more or less everything you need to know about it is tied up in John Shutt's 400 page doctoral dissertation on it.
<luciddreamz>OK yeah that is heavy stuff .. I mean the intro page :p
<graftin>I'd read The Little Schemer first.
***rekado_ is now known as rekado
<rekado>graftin: Guile-Emacs does not replace Elisp. It uses the Guile implementation of Elisp and thus replaces the Elisp language implementation.
<luciddreamz>OK that will be worth a try.. I may have to re re read it a couple times lol
<graftin>rekado: That's what I said - it replaces the C core.
<graftin>It does allow one to extend (Guile-)Emacs in all of the Guile-supported languages, though, no?
<graftin>luciddreamz: well, even the Little Schemer doesn't cover macros and "real" Lisp, so you're on your own there. PAIP covers "real" Lisp, including macros.
<luciddreamz>hmm OK... somewhere I picked up this Text: "COMMON LISP:
<luciddreamz>A Gentle Introduction
<luciddreamz>to Symbolic Computation"
<graftin>Uh uh
<graftin>Uh oh*
<graftin>Oh wait, I'm thinking of "A Gentle Introduction To Haskell", which is not gentle at all.
<luciddreamz>ahh OK... I hate it when I miss CR's
<graftin>I mean, it was nice for me as someone who already knows Scheme, but it would not be a good intro to functional programming. No wonder people hate Haskell.
<luciddreamz>PAIP looks pretty interesting
<graftin>It is. You even pick up Prolog and Lisp compiler and interpreter knowledge along the way. How cool is that?
<graftin>Plus, it's all for free on Github now.
<luciddreamz>I saw the Prolog in there too yeah very cool
<luciddreamz>I need to turn in ugh...
<luciddreamz>Thank you for the crash course, very much appreciated graftin1
<graftin>Sure, no problem.
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<divansantana>icecat 60, is that css bug still an issue? I think there was a bug report for it, but I can't find it now.
<civodul>fishy GRUB error here:
<civodul>"invalid arch-independent ELF magic."
<pkill9>should i resend my patch if i forgot to put '[PATCH]' in the beginning of the email subject?
<lsl88>hi! I have a question, it happened in the past to me, but I guess I restored a snapshot of my VM and it was solved. Yesterday I did a git pull (i almost do it every day) over my master branch, in fact, after working on sth I end up deleting the branch after sending the patch. And the weird thing is that I run git log and the commits appear with the dates disordered. I mean, I have my head pointing to I the latest commit, but if I go on
<lsl88>reading the log, the 12th commit that is shown is from 2015
<apteryx>lsl88: commits are shown in order of merged, not chronogically based on their creation date
<tune>still running into that problem where the guix-current file already exists and I have to delete it before updating
<tune>also qutebrowser can't be built because qtwebkit can't be built
<tune>I actually haven't been able to use qutebrowser most of the year so I'm actually just gonna remove it for now
<tune>but if it ever starts working again, I'd love a ping about it. I miss it
<lsl88>apteryx: thank you! i thought it was maybe my mistake :)
<bavier>tune: I think I know how to fix qutebrowser, but if qtwebkit also needs fixing, it might be a bit longer
<tune>alright, I wish you luck
<apteryx>I forgot; is it possible to do multiline substitution using substitute*?
<snape>pkill9: the name of the list is '' so it's pretty obvious that the email will most likely contain patches ;)
<snape>actually, the [PATCH] prefix is added by git-send-email, which is a pretty useful tool
<snape>but don't worry, it's not necessary
<snape>pkill9: but using git-send-email is encouraged because it makes it easier to review patches
<lfam>Any moderately complicated examples of hosts-file for GuixSD?
<civodul>hey lfam!
*civodul uses %facebook-host-aliases
<lfam>I just replied to the message asking about hosts-file
<civodul>i'm lagging a bit, i haven't seen it yet
<lfam>I think my reply will be enough...
<apteryx>Is it possible to do multiline substitution using the substitute* from (guix build utils)?
<civodul>i think so
<civodul>i think there's a couple of files where we do that
<apteryx>thanks, I'll try finding me an example :)
<civodul>oh is now inaccessible over Tor :-/
<civodul>yesterday i pushed two 4-year old commits
<civodul>it's interesting :-)
<lfam>Put it in the Guinness book of records
<civodul>i was doing some profiling, and then remembered that i had already solved the performance problem i was looking at somewhere sometime
<nckx>New sudo (1.8.26) if anyone feels like bumping it.
***Server sets mode: +cnt
<Laalf>id probably get a newer microcode in my coreboot and edk2. intel didnt evilize with microcode updates
<graftin>Laalf: Thanks for the link. I wanted to try out Libreboot, but you need to take apart the entire computer if it's for the the T400 (it's easier on the X200), and I need my computer in the mean time.
<graftin>The link to a BIOS mod goes to a site telling me that the file has been deleted.
***nonzen is now known as nonzen_
<graftin>What happened to Librecore (GNU replacement for Libreboot after Libreboot got kicked out)?
***nonzen_ is now known as nonzen
<lfam>graftin: As far as I know, it never launched
<sneek>lfam, you have 2 messages.
<sneek>lfam, apteryx says: Could you explain why you moved libssh source url back to https? I'm curious, since it was just recently moved to plain git for performance reasons.
<sneek>lfam, apteryx says: it seems they updated their infrastructure, it now supports shallow clones over https. good!
<lfam>apteryx: You got it :)
<apteryx>that was quick! had you ping'd the maintainer?
<lfam>Yes, I asked them to make it available over HTTPS
<lfam>And they graciously did it :)
<Laalf>graftin: the second link works.
<Laalf>i didnt want to give you a random uploader link. thats kind scary
<graftin>Laalf: Looks like I'll have to sign up for this mydigitallife forum.
<graftin>Thanks for the link
<Laalf>graftin: yeah i am sorry. the xx00 series are kinda only wanted by libreboot guys.
<apteryx>lfam: nice!
<graftin>Laalf:What do you run GuixSD on?
<Laalf>graftin: w530 (still intel wifi card because no modbios yet, but hey, the best one sold at that generation), k2000m, 3820qm, 24gb ram, 1080p screen, 860 evo.
<Laalf>oh and the xx20 keyboard. because its the best keyboard i found on a notebook yet
<Laalf>and it doesnt fuck up del/pgup/down/home/end like every other notebook keyboard
<graftin>How are you running Guix if you have an Intel wifi card?
<Laalf>graftin: nonfree kernel is really easy. and someone thought that it would be a good idea to let me do this: (firmware (cons* iwlwifi-firmware-nonfree %base-firmware))... i mean thank you.
<Laalf>also i could load the firmware on another distro and power cycle without resetting the mpcie since the card just needs them at startup. the firmware is stored in volatile memory on the card.
<lfam>Of the four software freedoms, the first is to use the software as you see fit. Beyond that, GNU Guix doesn't use its official communication channels (this IRC channel, the mailing lists, our webpages, etc) to discuss non-free software. Thanks :)
<civodul>rekado: turns out we're a bit tight on / on berlin
<civodul>i guess we did not remove the store
<rekado>I could copy/move the caches to /gnu/caches and then bind mount them.
<vagrantc>had opportunity to talk to ruben from the FSF the other day about and the implications of /gnu/store containing all packages in a single directory and how it impacted the disk upgrade...
<vagrantc>seems that ext4 can in theory handle billions of files per directory, but other tools like fsck eat too much ram when you do
<vagrantc>which would suggest moving toward /gnu/store/PACKAGE/VERSION/HASH instead of /gnu/store/HASH-PACKAGE-VERSION
<vagrantc>which would probably involve rebuilding everything...
<rekado>civodul: I’m running “cp -ar /var/cache/ /gnu/”; will sync again, then bind mount.
<bavier>vagrantc: previous discussion have noted that the current scheme is much friendlier to grafting
<bavier>this would be a big sticking point to moving to something else
<civodul>rekado: awesome!
<vagrantc>bavier: not sure how that changes grafting, but admittedly very unaware of the deeper details
<vagrantc>just makes grafting more complicated, or actually infeasible?
<rekado>vagrantc: I think it makes it less performant.
<rekado>the reference scanner can assume that /gnu/store/<hash> has always the same length.
<rekado>this allows for some optimizations
<rekado>we need to scan thousands of files for grafting, so this does add up.
<bavier>a different scheme I've seen used is where the first few hash characters are made into subdirectories
<vagrantc>that would also help
<vagrantc>wouldn't make for freindlier tab-completion
<bavier>e.g. "/gnu/store/f/oobar..."
<bavier>yeah, manually scanning the store would be "harder", but the grafter could still assume a fixed length string
<vagrantc>it was interesting to hear about the real-world implications of such filesystem layout, at least :)
<bavier>right, anyhow, g2g, just thought I'd give 2c
<vagrantc>the SeaGL talk was fun too :)
<civodul>oh the SeaGL talk was last week-end, right?
<vagrantc>yeah, was pretty well attended, some interesting comments
*rekado –> zzZ
<vagrantc>most notably "so if it doesn't follow the FHS, where does data get stored for, say, a database server
<vagrantc>people were also *very* exicited to hear about the MES bootstrap
<civodul>vagrantc: oh great