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<mbakke>What is the best way to add custom Polkit rules in GuixSD?
<civodul>mbakke: by extending polkit-service-type
<mbakke>civodul: Is it possible to do that with just a file-like object?
<mbakke>IIUC the service extension takes a package object that populates /etc/polkit-1/.
<civodul>mbakke: exactlyh
<civodul>for instance colord-service-type extends polkit-service-type with a list containing the colord package
<civodul>similarly, you could extend polkit with (list (computed-file ...)), for instance
*janneke created package for wip-mingw-guile-2.2
<janneke>wondering what status is of that branch
<civodul>rekado: crazy stuff, i already see improvements at compared to a few hours ago :-)
<civodul>it looks really nice
<civodul>vagrantc: are Debian folks as enthusiastic as we are? :-)
<civodul>oops 504, looks like it just died
<rain1> how do i fix this? I can't download a https thing, guix package -i nss-certs did not affect it
<rain1>nvm, i got it the CURL_CA_BUNDLE env did it I think
<ecbrown>right, you need the curl bundle for wget.
<rain1>there is no need for that sarcasm
<ecbrown>guix seems good about recommending things to be added to environment, but curl (last time i checked) didn't recommend this
<ecbrown>(or nss-certs)
<ecbrown>but later on, installing another package, it did
<ecbrown>rain1: i think it's true, and ironic at the same time
<rain1>oh sorry, i misunderstood! because i got curl working and gave up on wget
<vagrantc>civodul: what response there was was overwhelmingly positive :)
<reepca-laptop>agh, I'm trying to set up pinyin input for applications other than emacs using ibus and I'm at a loss as to why it's not working. The setup seems to be working, there's an icon in the bottom right corner that when clicked on indicates that "Chinese - intelligent pinyin" should be active, but nothing different seems to be happening in icecat. It doesn't help that I couldn't find a description anywhere of how to actually *use* the input
<reepca-laptop>method, so I can't tell if it should seem any different to me...
<reepca-laptop>I've installed ibus-libpinyin and ibus, ibus-daemon is running, and I've run ibus-setup and added libpinyin as an input method. I just don't get it
<apteryx>sneek_: later tell reepca-laptop: I've had to set a couple envars to unusual values for getting ibus inputs in most applications. I've followed the arch wiki, here:
<apteryx>notice the 'factual accuracy disputed section', this is what worked for me.
<apteryx>I've also commented on this related ibus issue:
***aminb is now known as Guest47171
<efraim>apteryx: wow, that does not look like fun to work out
<efraim>and I'm not suprised I couldn't figure out ibus and enlightenment
<efraim>i ended up using setxkbmap directly until I added a custom module to my xorg conf
<apteryx>efraim: rekado seems to have a working setup with more normal values; maybe using a more complete desktop makes it easier, I don't know.
<efraim>i wouldn't be suprised
<efraim>language switching "just worked" when I was using XFCE
<reepca-laptop>Agh, the logs seem to be nonfunctional. Did I miss any answers?
<apteryx>efraim: I was also using shortcuts in ratpoison to switch layouts using setxkbmap, but AFAIK this doesn't work for complex input systems (japanese for e.g.)
<apteryx>reepca-laptop: (replaying) I've had to set a couple envars to unusual values for getting ibus inputs in most applications. I've followed the arch wiki, here:
<apteryx>notice the 'factual accuracy disputed section', this is what worked for me.
<apteryx>I've also commented on this related ibus issue:
<reepca-laptop>yeah, I ended up finding that issue, but even after exporting those variables, icecat still ain't changing anything.
<reepca-laptop>do they need to be set in the environment ibus-daemon is run in?
<reepca-laptop>maybe I need to restart... wouldn't surprise me, that's usually how these "spend 2 hours on something that nobody else has a problem with" issues end up...
<reepca-laptop>Hm, attempting to click "preferences" in ibus-setup causes the ImportError "undefined symbol _Py_ZeroStruct". Maybe that has something to do with it
<apteryx>reepca-laptop: preferences? I don't see this in my ibus-setup
<reepca-laptop>"Input Method" -> "Preferences"
<apteryx>You also need to set IBUS_COMPONENT_PATH
<apteryx>mine is: export IBUS_COMPONENT_PATH="$HOME/.guix-profile/share/ibus/component${IBUS_COMPONENT_PATH:+:}$IBUS_COMPONENT_PATH"
<reepca-laptop>I'm pretty sure I had that in at least one of the shells I tried this in, but I'll give it another shot
<apteryx>reepca-laptop: OK, I see the Preferences button now, but it is grayed out for all of my input methods (Anthy, English US, English Dvorak)
<reepca-laptop>Huh. It's not grayed out for "Chinese - Intelligent Pinyin"
<apteryx>OK. Interesting.
<apteryx>Hope you can make it work!
<apteryx>In our Guix manual, we say for Guix offload that Guile + Guix modules must be made available... Putting stuff in ~/.bashrc works, but this is a dirty hack (it will pollute guix environment --pure, for example). Is there a better way?
<efraim>I haven't found a better way
<reepca-laptop>apteryx: if it wouldn't be too much of a bother, could you try installing ibus-libpinyin?
<apteryx>efraim: On a foreign distro, this works: sudo ln -s /var/guix/profiles/per-user/mcournoyer/guix-profile/bin/guile /usr/local/bin/guile
<apteryx>(for guile -- not to find how to set GUILE_LOAD_PATH)
<apteryx>reepca-laptop: lemme try
<efraim>i found I couldn't do 'ssh efraim@other-guixsd-box -t screen -RD' if screen was in my user's profile but not in the system profile
<efraim>i should probably file a bug
<apteryx>efraim: I had luck making my guix profile binaries available by putting a 'source $HOME/.guix-profile/etc/profile' in ~/.bashrc
<apteryx>but that's not exactly elegant
<apteryx>(in my view ~/.bashrc is for small, non-disrupting settings -- it's run for every bash process!)
<apteryx>we even have a section in our manual saying that setting PATHs variables in ~/.bashrc is *wrong*.
<apteryx>but then we have no choice to do this for 'guix offload'. I feel tricked :D
<apteryx>reepca-laptop: hmm, something to fix before I can try it seems. You probably will beat me to it by trying out anthy on your side :)
<reepca-laptop>I have a direct line of sight to my router and still get ping spikes (to it) high enough to disconnect me... weird
<reepca-laptop>apteryx: does anthy show up as "anthy" in ibus-setup or as "japanese"?
<apteryx>Japanese - Anthy
<reepca-laptop>that's weird, I installed ibus-anthy but all I can find is "Japanese - Japanese"
<reepca-laptop>... and now suddenly pinyin starts working in icecat??? I don't even know what I changed!
<lfam>reepca-laptop: Maybe logged out and back in?
<reepca-laptop>I haven't logged out and back in at all since I started messing with this stuff
<reepca-laptop>but anthy still isn't showing up as an option, and I have no idea why...
<apteryx>reepca-laptop: hmm, maybe check that IBUS_COMPONENT_PATH var again?
<Sleep_Walker>damn, none of my guix no longer recognize system command :(
<Sleep_Walker>(that means 2x GuixSD + 1x guix running on top of openSUSE)
<baimafeima>good morning
<baimafeima>Is Guix suitable for beginners? I was looking at PureOS and Devuan so far
<jonsger>baimafeima: for Linux beginners?
<snape>baimafeima: Guix or GuixSD?
<snape>GuixSD is more difficult to use than, say, Archlinux
***rekado_ is now known as rekado
<rekado>Sleep_Walker: you’re probably upgrading from an older version.
<rekado>Sleep_Walker: the system command depends on guile-sqlite3
<baimafeima>oh i don't know what's the difference
<rekado>Sleep_Walker: if you’re using “guix pull” it should just work. When using a git checkout you need to take care of the dependencies yourself (e.g. by using guix environment guix)
<baimafeima>I'm looking for an easy-to-use OS which must have a graphical installer
*rekado finds it easier to use than Archlinux
<snape>baimafeima: Guix is the package manager, GuixSD is the full OS, using the Guix package manager
<jonsger>guix is just a package manager, which could be used on every linux distro. GuixSD is a distro build around guix
<rekado>baimafeima: GuixSD does not have a graphical installer.
<rekado>apteryx, reepca-laptop FWIW I don’t have a “complete desktop”. I’m just using EXWM.
<nly>Hi janneke, listened to your fosdem 2017 talk linked at Gnu guix blog. Cool stuff.
<nly>'Maxwell equations of software'
<rekado>reepca-laptop: make sure that ~/.cache/ibus isn’t outdated. It’s a known bug. You may need to remove it.
<rekado>reepca-laptop: I use IBus with ibus-libpinyin.
<Sleep_Walker>rekado: I'm afraid that I am using guix pull, I have guile-sqlite3 installed and yet it doesn't work
<rekado>reepca-laptop: you need to set the GUIX_GTK* variables, because that tells the various versions of GTK where to find input method modules.
<baimafeima>snape, I see
<baimafeima>rekado, ah, that's a pity, then I have to look elsewhere
<Sleep_Walker>I'll try to get today git snapshot
<rekado>baimafeima: you might like Trisquel
<Sleep_Walker>btw. I am using local git checkout for that (guix pull --url=/...)
<baimafeima>rekado, no, it's totally outdated
<rekado>Sleep_Walker: you didn’t install Guile itself, though, right?
<rekado>Sleep_Walker: that’s where the search path specification is attached
<rekado>baimafeima: oh, too bad :-/
<baimafeima>rekado, and as far as I know based on ubuntu which i will avoid at all costs :D
<rekado>baimafeima: GuixSD is very different from other GNU+Linux systems, so I would not recommend it for a beginner.
<jonsger>baimafeima: you could use opensuse. It haves a graphical installer and you can install guix with the package manager of opensuse :)
<baimafeima>rekado, isn't there a plan to make it accessible for beginners too? otherwise freedom and justice is only for a tech-minority
<rekado>part of the fun of being new to this is that you can find information and help everywhere; in the case of GuixSD you can’t really do that.
<rekado>baimafeima: absolutely!
<rekado>baimafeima: I just don’t think we’re there yet.
<baimafeima>rekado, ah ok, but great to know it's in the making
<Sleep_Walker>rekado: I installed that now, exported environment variables now - problem persists...
<rekado>baimafeima: there was work on an ncurses-based installer, which has stalled AFAIK. I don’t know if anyone worked on a graphical installer.
<baimafeima>jonsger, but then I'll have the opensuse repo, no?
<jonsger>baimafeima: sure. But you don't need to add the Non-
<baimafeima>rekado, does GuixSD have it's own repo?
<jonsger>oss repos and you could maybe install the linux-libre kernel from guix
<rekado>Sleep_Walker: you’re using guix pull, but with a custom checkout, so it should just work IIUC. Make sure that you’re really using that new version of “guix” at ~/.config/guix/current/bin.
<rekado>baimafeima: GuixSD is not based on any other GNU+Linux distribution. The complete code for the system is hosted on Savannah.
<baimafeima>jonsger, last time I tried opensuse I couldn't get it to install
<baimafeima>rekado, what's Savannah? I'm really a beginner, so not familiar with a lot of terms
<jonsger>oke :(
<baimafeima>so at the moment I will try with PureOS and Devuan, what do you think about these?
<rekado>baimafeima: Savannah is a code hoster for all GNU software (and some non-GNU things as well).
<baimafeima>rekado, so Savannah is like gitlab?
<rekado>baimafeima: I understood “repo” to mean “code repository”
<rekado>you could say that. Like a 90s variant of gitlab maybe :)
<rekado>we don’t really use the outmoded web interface all that much :)
<rekado>baimafeima: I haven’t tried PureOS and Devuan myself. Personally, I would recommend going with something that has a large community.
<rekado>I had good experiences with Fedora. And you can use Guix as a package manager on top of any of these systems.
<rekado>Debian itself is also very good and has a very large, friendly community.
<baimafeima>rekado, as I understand each operating system usually has its own package manager. What would be the advantage of using Guix if I don't use GuixSD?
<rekado>Guix has a couple of features that you don’t find elsewhere.
<rekado>e.g. roll-backs, statelessness, near bit-reproducibility by design, etc.
<baimafeima>rekado, oh
<rekado>Guix can also build whole systems as virtual machines, or it can build self-contained container images that you can distribute to other people.
<baimafeima>rekado, this sounds very similar to some of Solus goals, roll-backs, statelessness and so on
<baimafeima>rekado, unfortunately Solus is only pragmatist and not ethical-focused
<rekado>one use-case for Guix on top of a foreign distribution is science: at the institute where I work we’re using Guix to ensure that the bioinformatics software environments are reproducible across different kinds of machines.
<baimafeima>where can I find the repository for Guix?
<rekado>The project home page is here:
<rekado>the source code is available here:
<rekado>a list of packages that are currently available through Guix can be accessed here:
<rekado>Unlike other package managers, Guix does not have a repository of binary packages.
<baimafeima>rekado, wow I see, so this is entirely built from scratch
<rekado>Unfortunately, I have to leave now, but I’m sure other people here can help answering your questions
*rekado waves
<baimafeima>rekado, thanks so much for your help
<snape>baimafeima: this is built from scratch, but that doesn't mean you have to build them from scratch. There are some machines out there providing 'substitutes' that everyone can download instead of building everything.
<baimafeima>snape, I see. Could I ask here if I have a package request?
<snape>baimafeima: sure! And you can also send an email to describing your request
<snape>it will create a ticket in our bugtracker, and it can have the tag 'wishlist'
<snape>baimafeima: and last but not least, you can write the package by yourself :-)
<baimafeima>snape, unfortunately I'm not technical enough to do that
<jonsger>it uses rust, so it could be a little tricky on guix :(
<snape>yes, rust stuff isn't ready yet
<snape>(it means we *don't* have Firefox, yes...)
<jonsger>the VPN I use offers also OpenVPN config files which you can just use like: "sudo openvpn netherlands-tcp.cfg"
<snape>but there will be Chromium soon, and we have Epiphany (which doesn't work well)
<baimafeima>is there a chance that mullvadvpn-app could be included in the future?
<baimafeima>It's also one of the few commercial vpns that I trust
<snape>baimafeima: if it's a free software, yes
***jonsger1 is now known as jonsger
*rekado is back
<rekado>snape: Epiphany doesn’t work well?
*rekado uses Epiphany as the main browsers
<snape>probably, if you browse savannah it's fine
<rekado>none of my tabs are savannah :)
<snape>:-) It freezed my computer 30min ago
<snape>yesterdey it crashed
<snape>I mean, it's not something I can use at work
<snape>actually, it didn't crash, but displayed an error message saying it couldn't load the site
<snape>and another time it hanged on a site, preventing scrolling
<snape>That's already three things that don't work, in one hour of use
<snape>one of them being critical and blocking (I can't afford my machine to freeze)
<rekado>that’s odd.
<rekado>so, I really need help to fix this problem:
<rekado>I use EXWM and I have a gpg encrypted document that I want to open in Emacs.
<rekado>as soon as I visit the file pinentry-gtk2 pops up … but I cannot input anything!
<rekado>I don’t have this problem with pinentry when using git, for example.
<rekado>it only happens when visiting encrypted files in Emacs.
<rekado>any ideas?
<snape>this is what I did
<snape>and everything works fine now
<rekado>thanks, I’ll give this a try
*rekado builds ghc 8.4.3 again, hopefully for the last time.
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<roptat>hi guix!
<kmicu>( ^_^)/
***mood_ is now known as mood
<roptat>I just saw a wonderful talk on "New applications of software synthesis: verificatino of configuration files and firewall repair"
<roptat>especially, the firewall repair thing is a work that we could use for generating iptable rules
<roptat>it's a sort of extension mechanism on existing configuration, but really, if your config is empty, it's the same as configuration synthesis
<roptat>this work:
<rekado>snape: in the Cuirass web interface should we have separate success/failure/pending indicators for different architectures?
<snape>rekado: if that was the case, with, say, 10 architectures, there would be 30 buttons per line?>
<snape>rekado: by the way you can easily rename the 'unknown' inputs to 'guix' if you want to make it look nicer
<rekado>snape: I think having all builds in one big number makes it harder to derive conclusions.
<rekado>seeing a lot of failed builds for one architecture but not on others is much more instructive.
<snape>I agree
<rekado>instead of separate buttons, how about a filter?
<snape>Yes, that's a good idea
<snape>like ^ ?
<snape>rekado: can you create a ticket for it? Or if you want I can do it
<rekado>I’ll send an email to bug-guix
<snape>cool, thanks
<snape>my first priority now is to get Berlin to build only what is strictly necessary
<snape>i.e. fix and
<jonsger>rekado: nice those coulored labels on
<jonsger>rekado: maybe the time format could be something like YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM(:SS)
<snape>!!! I didn't know about it
<roptat>we have guix/import/cabal.scm but not guix/scripts/import/cabal.scm
<roptat>oh, that's hackage actually
<roptat>nevermind :)
<rekado>jonsger: yes, there are quite a few things that would need changes.
<rekado>I’m 30% into using the Guile bindings to mailutils wherever possible, but that’s not without problems itself.
<rekado>e.g. a procedure to extract the message author from the From headers swallows non-ASCII characters, which is why Ludo’s name is mangled in the top (but not elsewhere where I decode the message header differently)
<civodul>snape: nitpick: /guix-master?system=x86_64-linux
<civodul>rekado: perhaps there are more Scheme email libraries that we could port or use?
<rekado>BTW, if anyone would like to help, you can find the code here:
<snape>civodul: ah yes :-)
<snape>rekado: is it possible to search by submitter? Or is it the thing you said debbugs doesn't allow?
<snape>I meant: to filter by submitter
<civodul>i think "author:Clément" should work
<rekado>mailutils is probably correct in this case; the “problem” is that debbugs stores some things as mails and others as decoded properties (and yet others in yet some other encoding). You have to know where something comes from to pick the right procedure.
<rekado>“author:” searches by message author
<rekado>“submitter:” might work (didn’t test it enough), but it does so by filtering emails after fetching a big batch from debbugs.
<civodul> works
<civodul>but leads to a blank page
<civodul>encoding issue i guess
<rekado>debbugs does not really support “submitter” as a search attribute. (It is valid, but on the debbugs side the submitter does not seem to be stored as such.)
<rekado>you can search for email address instead: “author:clement” might work.
<snape>yes but it's not the submitter, it's a superset of what I submitted
<snape>it's pretty cool, still
<civodul>indeed, works
<civodul>snape: i'd go as far as saying it's awesome :-)
<snape>yeah, it's fantastic :-)
*rekado starts collecting adjectives now
<civodul>seriously it makes a real difference
<rekado>a difference in the load of the debbugs servers, certainly :)
<civodul>heh that too :-)
<snape>rekado: because it doesn't query the debbugs servers directly?
<civodul>rekado: i like the new acronym expansion for "mumi" :-)
<rekado>snape: the opposite direction: through mumi there are *more* requests to the debbugs server (assuming that it increases the number of people interacting with our bug tracker).
<rekado>civodul: heh, I really couldn’t think of anything clever, so I chose honesty instead.
<snape>oh I see. Is there any site, with mumi source and description?
<rekado>the sources are here:
<rekado>it uses guile-debbugs:
<snape>thank you
<rekado>(an unreleased version 0.0.3, though)
<rekado>because that depends on an unreleased version of mailutils, which has Guile 2.2 bindings.
<nly>Hi guix
<nly>I wanna try out guix, but I also like to have a working system. I am thinking, Trying it in virtual machine, trying out packages, then moving to bare metal.
<rekado>nly: hi!
<rekado>nly: you can use Guix as a package manager on top of another system
<rekado>nly: but if you’re interested in the system (GuixSD) you could use Guix to generate virtual machine images.
<rekado>that’s probably the easiest path.
<rekado>using Guix on top of a foreign distribution (such as Debian) will not affect your working system and it can easily be removed if you want that.
<nly>Do you have any experience running guix on nixos?
<nly>It's not in the nixpkgs so I have to compile it myself.
<rekado>nly: I haven’t used it on nixos, but I think there are people here who do.
<rekado>you can use the binary installation method instead of compiling it yourself.
<pkill9>nly: i'm doing the inverse (running Nix on GuixSD)
<rekado>nly: you can use this installer script:
*rekado will push the new GHC package to master today
<nly>Nice pkill9, I wanna run muh GNU system too :-)
<nly>rekado: thanks, BTW are you paid for working on guix?
<nly>So, I will install guix and use that to deploy containers or whatever
<rekado>nly: I’m paid for sysadmin work. Some of that involves working on Guix.
*ecbrown \o/ declares victory on the "perfect setup" of GuixSD on Macbook Air 11"
<nly>That's awesome rekado :-)
<nly>Reading the guix manuals...
<milesrout>What kernel does GuixSD use? Linux-libre?
<bavier`>milesrout: yes
<milesrout>wonderful. thinking of getting a libreboot laptop from minifree and putting guix on it
<efraim>i'm testing out a fix for qtwebkit to use less memory during linking, in the mean time ran OOM while building qtlocations
<amz3>survey question: what web browser do you use in guix that is not text based?
<janneke>i'm using conkeror
<janneke>the only browser with gnu keybindings...but javascript support is pretty bad
<Formbi>how to make Qt programs from Guix use GTK themes? (I use Guix as an additional manager on Arch)
<bavier`>amz3: I use icecat, netsurf, and occasionally qutebrowser
<amz3>ok, I will send a messge to the mailling list it will be less noisy on more helpful. I think.
<dustyweb>civodul: I'm very excited about channels btw!
<dustyweb>I agree there's some risk about "baking an API" but I think there's a lot of good reasons to have them
<dustyweb>in particular the recent browser stuff really stressed to me how much I'd like channels
<dustyweb>I understand why chromium is not in yet, but it would be good if I had an "easier" path to testing the chromium WIP stuff
<dustyweb>and now that we don't have a "modern" and currently supported secure browser it feels more urgent... I'd think with channels, that may be one instance where more users would be able to test and help and it could also alleviate some pressure there
<dustyweb>just some off-hand thoughts :)
<dustyweb>I suppose "guix potluck" could help there too, but admittedly I haven't taken the time to understand that
*vagrantc wonders what's wrong with "guixsd" as a name...
<snape>True. But adding the package, even if it's not perfect, doesn't harm.
<taylan>hmm, it can't be pronounced without "es dee" at the end
<dustyweb>snape: fwiw I think the current state of chromium should be committed
<snape>dustyweb: Yes, I've seen your email, thanks!
<taylan>then again "system" is two syllables as well :)
<janneke>vagrantc: `the gnu system' would be a nice name
<snape>janneke: but RMS refuses I reckon :-)
<taylan>janneke: was the original idea but vetted by RMS, in case you didn't know
<dustyweb>I think the main issue with GuixSD is that it isn't obvious what SD has to do with Guix without unpacking it
<snape>I like Guix OS better, and it's symetrical with Nix
<Formbi>so maybe GuixOS like NixOS?
<janneke>snape, taylan: thanks...maybe we can ask again when we all have the Hurd
<dustyweb>Formbi: rms will never go with GuixOS :)
<dustyweb>but I agree it would be clearer
<dustyweb>because GNU, or GNU/Linux, is supposed to be the OS ;)
<taylan>janneke: even then I think rms doesn't want it because it would "privilege" GuixSD above other GNU/Hurd distros
<dustyweb>at least though
<dustyweb>the GuixSD logo is very nice ;)
<janneke>taylan: we'll have to wait a bit until people turn away from those
<taylan>oh yes, I love the graphics design :)
<taylan>janneke: IIRC the parabola people complained too. insisting on taking "GNU" might seem hostile towards them.
<janneke>or to put if differently, as long as a non-guix system seems a viable choice to people, `the gnu system' seems not a name we have earned yet
<janneke>taylan: yes, i agree -- give people some time to realise the game changer that GuixSD is
<taylan>I agree actually, but there's probably always going to be people who don't agree on Guix's superiority :)
<amz3>I stopped receiving updates from guix-devel mailing list without notice on my mail adress. Anybody experiencing something similar?
<janneke>and probably for some years to come...but i see myself and people around my migrating most hardware to guixsd
<apteryx>amz3: I'm using icecat
<amz3>actually, I asked the wrong question (and I do not want to send a mail to the mailing anymore)
<amz3>my question is more like what are you expectations regarding a graphical web browser. What are the uses cases. Seems like people don't care about whether it is webkit and gecko based. Some people want a keyboard based web browser that works with JS. So the question is, what people expect from a web browser?
<vagrantc>what i expect from a web browser the web no longer seems to support ...
<apteryx>amz3: I dislike webkit, so I'll take gecko if possible.
<vagrantc>e.g. browseable content without executing arbitrarily larger and larger heaps of javascript from remote untrusted sites
<apteryx>vagrantc: exactly my thoughts also
<janneke>vagrantc: yes
<apteryx>the web is the only place where I suffer from my aging hardware.
<amz3>if people complain that there is no web browser that does what they want, i can work on something
<amz3>that said, I need to know how it should look like
<amz3>so it must be possible enable/disable javascript and assume css
<amz3>it must be possible to have emacs key bindings
<amz3>what else?
<amz3>it must be up-to-date regarding securty
<vagrantc>amz3: there are plenty of web browsers that do what i want, it's increasingly little web content that supports wha i wan :)
<jabranham>amz3: it'd be nice to have qt-webengine packaged so that we can update qutebrowser to use it
<janneke>amz3: why not write a web browser that *you* want?
<janneke>what i would like, is to have an emacs that runs on lightning fast guile-3, and a real web-browser in that emacs :-)
<bavier`>jabranham: iirc qt-webengine depends on the ongoing chromium discussion
<amz3>janneke: I take the risk of being the only user of that browser and I won't learn much along the way.
<apteryx>amz3: if we're going to make a browser, it'd be cool to have it run on Guile (that should enable running basic Javascript too?)
<taylan>a guile browser would most likely still have to use WebKit or Gecko. web technology is disturbingly complex, so a whole new rendering engine would be a massive undertaking
<amz3>apteryx: I did not want to me the one to say what you said, thanks!
<amz3>taylan: i agree
<apteryx>from the Ring folks, I learned that webkit has its own signals to let application knows when it crashed...
<snape>FWIW I need a browser that can run all major sites (excepted DRM content) smoothly
<amz3>what does mean?
<amz3>apteryx: what does it mean in pratice ?
<amz3>apteryx: what does it mean in practice ?
<apteryx>amz3: to me, it just mean that webkit is probably crushing itself under its own weight; I wouldn't want to have to deal with it if possible.
<apteryx>it also requires a ridiculously large amount of RAM to be built
<apteryx>Was there someone who suggested a way to manage per project environment variables in Emacs? Perhaps on the ML?
<janneke>apteryx: i wrote a hack `guix-switch-profile', that will setenv everything needed for a profile or environment
<janneke>of course, all of emacs switches -- not sure what you mean by a "project"
<apteryx>janneke: that sounds useful! Maybe you should post your hack as an answer to this question on the mailing list: ? :)
<apteryx>janneke: I'd be interested in trying out your script, but for my current need at hand, I was looking at some way to tell Emacs: when I work under this directory, set PYTHONPATH=$PYTHONPATH:some-custom-location.
<apteryx>There are dir-locals for this, but I'd rather keep these definitions outside of the project sources (Could be in my .emacs file for example)
<janneke>apteryx: ...subscribing to help-guix now -- apparently i missed that list
<apteryx>janneke: OK :) I'm sure the OP will be happy to read your answer.
<apteryx>janneke: there also seems to be that could suite the bill, maybe (haven't tried yet, but I remember reading something about it on the list for that purpose or similar)
<apteryx>I think I've found it here:
<janneke>yes, i saw seems there are many half-baken solutions...
<janneke>apteryx: posted to help-guix, thanks
<rekado>about the name: the name “GuixSD” is opaque and creates an arbitrary distinction between the system running on bare metal and the systems you can create with the “guix system” commands.
<rekado>it makes it difficult to communicate about Guix.
<rekado>do we really offer “a package manager” and a “distro”?
<rekado>or is it really all one thing with various levels?
*vagrantc wasn't aware of guix system being useful outside of guixsd
<rekado>the “guix system” command can be used without GuixSD to create GuixSD virtual machines or containers.
<rekado>describing “guix system” is difficult when we think in terms of “package manager” vs “distro”.
<rekado>Guix itself is also a distro
<rekado>none of the packages it provides link with the host system
<rekado>I think that simplifying the name by using “guix” as a category will make communication easier.
<janneke>yes, "guix" is a great name
<vagrantc>depends on if you consider the pronunciation a feature or a bug :)
<janneke>"i'm running guix, you should try it"
<janneke>vagrantc: hehe
<janneke>"are you running guix on redhat or on debian?" ... no, on bare metal
<apteryx>janneke: thanks to you!
<amz3>so we will end up saying things like i am using ubuntu + guix
<amz3>which is already the case
<nly>Guix + Hurd + gnunet, a man can dream.. :)
<buenouanq>nly gets it
<amz3>sneek_: botsnack
<RetardedOnion>are there any other open substitutes? other than the berlin one?
<pkill9>i don't think so (other than the default hydra one)
<vagrantc>how do i mark a guix bug with the patch tag? is there a control@ interface?
<vagrantc>looks like ... tags NNN patch
<vagrantc>do mails with with "Control: tags NNN patch" in the body work too?
<apteryx>vagrantc: if you use debbugs-gnu in Emacs, there is some interface for those things IIRC.
<vagrantc>requires working email?
<apteryx>Hmm... possibly, I use Emacs as my email client so I haven't tried without, but it'll need to send a email for the action
<civodul>sneek_: later tell dustyweb the browser example might not be a good one: if there's a "good enough" firefox or chromium in a channel elsewhere, why would people bother getting it into Guix proper?
<amz3>it's not sneek
<civodul>ah, it's not sneek
<civodul>well, where's sneek then?
<civodul>hi sneek_, BTW :-)
<janneke>civodul: later tell sneek to visit this channel!
<civodul>will do!
<amz3>to reply about the channel thing, i would say, they don't need to. if you think the package is good enough and there is no licensing issue you can grab it and put it in guix proper
<janneke>civodul: peoplesnack :-)
*civodul found a new job
<civodul>a human bot
<civodul>(just kidding)
<civodul>amz3: if it's the browser in guix proper, then it could be because people didn't take the time to polish it
<amz3>first do things that don't scale they say at y combinator. I say that because it's part of GNU project to have a conversational bot :]
<civodul>so it would suggest that there's not enough of an incentive to contribute to guix itself
<janneke>well, with all these robots taking our jobs, why not take jobs that bots can do?
<civodul>but i think we're not there yet anyway
<civodul>janneke: indeed, we have our revenge!
<civodul>and we could segfault too
*janneke dumped core
<civodul>with all the fuss around AI, maybe now's the time to introduce NI
*nckx o/ #guix
<civodul>natural intelligence
<amz3>natural intelligence :D
<civodul>though that might prove to be trickier than AI
<janneke>well, NI -- it would be about time :-)
<vagrantc>the iterations on the development cycles are rough ... make small changes, wait ages to see the bugs
<civodul>through a bunch of heuristics into the mix hoping that your NI system will work better
<janneke>vagrantc: as an upstream lilypond developer (long ago) i had a dream of having real fast feedback cycles
<vagrantc>and changes keep getting reverted all the time
<amz3>I worked in wanna AI company with math people, and one thing that was new to me is that they were looking for solution in science papers
<janneke>we'd get bug reports on ~2y old releases...
<janneke>bug reports on 2day old commits would be *so much* nicer...
<civodul>uh, bug reports on old code must be hard to deal with
<janneke>sometimes, the bug would be fixed...but *then* we were challanged with providing our users with a way to install our new software
<civodul>but reports on 2-day old commits are not always useful though: sometimes you've fixed the bug by the time you get to read the message :-)
<RetardedOnion>are there any updates to chromium? i think there was a discussion once about including it
<janneke>i think this is not an easy problem to solve, but i would love to direct some attention towards solving it
<civodul>RetardedOnion: mbakke brought it to a state where it seemed to be ready for inclusion AIUI
<civodul>not sure what's missing
<amz3>RetardedOnion: yes, I will implement a web browser in guile proper, best way of course according to a survey conducted on the channel
<janneke>civodul: apropos bootstrapping; i think my integration problems are fixed -- make-boot0 builds
<janneke>however, trying to build further native guix bootstrap packages seem to suggest that our glibc-mesboot 2.2.5 (statically linked only) is problematic
<jonsger>janneke: the last 6 months at work, the bug reports were more like on 10y old code :(
<janneke>i tried patching file-boot and findutils-boot...but that's less than great
<RetardedOnion>amz3: the reason i want to use chromium is compatibility and performance. i dont really know if "yabrowser" would help. but if it will run fine, i guess i will use it. qutebrowser doesnt work because qtwebengine and i am too dumb to use branches to downgrade
<janneke>now i'm looking at building a second glibc: glibc-mesboot-2.3.6 (+ shared) but that proves to be very difficult for me too...
<nly>Great work on guix civodul, I just realized that you are ludovic lol
<janneke>jonsger: oh...great! :-/
<amz3>RetardedOnion: I was going to ask why you want chromium proper instead of yet-another-browser
<jonsger>janneke: thats called Enterprise Linux :P
<RetardedOnion>amz3: performance with too many tabs and compatibility. any firefox doesnt fix it. i would be happy with ungoogled-chromium, but that will probably happen even less
<janneke>jonsger: work we're generating c++ 2003 code (using guile of course) because...well, enterprises do not live in 2011 yet
<amz3>RetardedOnion: I imagine you rely on a lot of web applications SaaSS, don't you?
<amz3>RetardedOnion: did you try suckless' surf browser
<rekado>(I use Epiphany, which works pretty well as a “modern” browser.)
<pkill9>RetardedOnion: my workaround is to use chormium from the nix store with a wrapper to make it use my locally-built mesa
<pkill9>i would prefer to use a guix-packaged verison though
<pkill9>there is work on packagin chromium for guix
<pkill9>this is the work i think
<pkill9>i might just get around to hosting a bulid server for personal use
<civodul>janneke: i think we need early on; at least that's what the current %bootstrap-glibc provides
<ng0>surf sucks for a good amound of websites but for basic websites it is usable - the problem is the web, not the application.
<amz3>If I am using ubuntu it is because I wanted a recent browser for doing stuff with guile javascript backend (and other frontend stuff) but since I am now a backend developer..
<janneke>civodul: the biggest problem now seems to be that i could only build make-boot0 by doing something like: (("^LOADLIBES=.*") "LOADLIBES='-ldl -lc -lnss_files -lnss_dns -lresolv'\n"))))))
<amz3>ng0: how can it sucks, I just checked it use a very recent version of webkitgtk. Is webkitgtk the problem?
<janneke>so yeah, the mes boot isn't finished/ready for integration -- something is needed
<RetardedOnion>pkill9: didnt you have chromium 55 or so packaged? how is that running?
<ng0>try using javascript heavy frontends with it which rely on some kind of given assumptions of how webbrowsers act
<janneke>possibly "only" is needed, possibly version 2.2.5 is enough? -- i really don't know and have been trying several things the past days
<ng0>and I wouldn't trust surf with banking
<RetardedOnion>www wasnt a mistake, bad devs were.
<janneke>i tried building latest glibc -- but that needs bison (and other things)
<janneke>so it seems that after gcc, now also glibc is not bootstrappable anymore
<janneke>not directly, i mean
<janneke>i'm hoping that (after we finish integrating the mes bootstrap into guix) we can engage more of GNU
<janneke>discuss bootstrap stategy with the glib/gcc people
<pkill9>RetardedOnion: oh yeah, i forgot about that, it lacks proprietary codec support (one of which is h264 which most videos use i think)
<RetardedOnion>pkill9: i tried to run it and there was a dep problem today.
<pkill9>that one doesn't actually build chromium, it just downloads the officail prebuilt version and patches it
<RetardedOnion>i forgot what it was though
<pkill9>yeah it's broken, i created it back when i was inexperienced at writing package definitions
<ng0>why don't you just try upgrading the existing long on-going chromium packaging instead of starting a new one?
<pkill9>i'll fix it up in a few days
<RetardedOnion>i find it weired that there was no decent package for chromium yet. but thanks for your work pkill9
<civodul>janneke: i'll take a look starting from your branch tomorrow
<pkill9>what needs finishing on it ng0?
<pkill9>RetardedOnion: ah yeah, not surprised it doesn't work, i patched in a path to the libs in my home directory, since i didn't know how to use the path of an input
<pkill9>the parts where it says 'libs-for-bundles'
***grothoff_ is now known as grothoff
<RetardedOnion>pkill9: i guess that is mostly the fault of the docs, not yours. because they are well, not quite starter friendly
<ng0>see the bugticket
<pkill9>yeah, i was thinking of creating a guide to writing package definitions
<pkill9>i currently have made apage of snippets for use in definitions:
<RetardedOnion>pkill9: would be really nice. i got some packages missing. my libvirt which doesnt support ovmf yet is not the only problem why i am not converting
<janneke>civodul: thank you! and as always...bother me about anything that may puzzle you :)
<jonsger>civodul: I asked yesterday at work and it seems that we don't have really space in our server rooms for a non (open)suse deciated server :(
<ng0>pkill9: Subject: [bug#28004] Chromium
<rekado>jonsger: thanks for asking!
<jonsger>but the guy from infra proposed that we could ask hosters like Hetzner, 1&1 or OVH. He said that they usually do this for at least VMs...
<rekado>we could do that, but co-location is rather expensive.
<jonsger>rekado: no ask them if they offer it us for free
<jonsger>I guess 35W ARM 1U machine is nothing a hoster will "die" from :P
<RetardedOnion>what would be the guix equivalent of /etc/fonts?
<pkill9>/run/current-system/profile/etc/fonts I think
<rekado>RetardedOnion: you wouldn’t edit it though, if that’s what you’re thinking about.
<RetardedOnion>rekado: ye no. japanese font in telegram under nix doesnt get rendered. just wanted to export this as a variable
<RetardedOnion>doesnt work. i guess i can add the japanese fonts as an input when its finally a guix package.
<amz3>what's up regarding qtwebkit?
<amz3>does it work?
<amz3>well sorry for the noise i will try myself.
<RetardedOnion>it doesnt build and i always forget it when i guix package -u
<vagrantc>amz3: it requires quite a bit of disk space and ram to build successfully
<vagrantc>amz3: i was successfull with 8GB ram + 10GB swap and ~14GB disk space
<vagrantc>amz3: also reducing the number of cores reduces the needed ram ...
<amz3>well, that is not a solution. I was going to say, let's build a web browser using the web engine that is the easiest to work with and stays up to date. AFAIK gecko is a nogo because it's embed features are long forgotten. webkitgtk is apprantly broken and also hard to work with. at last there is qtwebkit but that requires a lot hardware
<civodul>samplet, rekado: congrats on the GHC upgrade!
<RetardedOnion>the build crashes with 16gb ram for me.
<vagrantc>RetardedOnion: how many cores?
<lfam>amz3: What about webkitgtk is broken?
<amz3>lfam: that;include=subject:epiphany
<amz3>lfam: snape reported it crash every 5 min or freewe the PC
<jackhill>It looks like the ssl cert for has expired
<amz3>jonsger: bookmarked
<amz3>FYI a few years back chromium and firefox was off topic
<lfam>We are talking more specifically about the work-in-progress Chromium package that would be acceptable for Guix
<amz3>well that ethical chromium build is a timesink. What makes chromium better that qtwebkit + guile ?
<lfam>amz3: It's a fully-featured browser with a well-funded team behind it, developing features and fixing security issues. I understand there are benefits to other browsers, but there is really nothing free that compares to Chromium except for Firefox
*amz3 afk
<RetardedOnion>(its not like firefox is in a good state or better for your privacy)
<lfam>I think they are both in a great state and two of the flagship projects of free software
<lfam>It's not a reason to exclude other browsers or anythink like that. But IMO it's important for a free distro like Guix to have at least one of those two browsers, since computer users expect something like that
<RetardedOnion>what about both?:D
<nly>I will just mention Eoilie
<bavier`>nly: thanks for the link. I'm sure it would be nice to have that packaged for our gnome desktop
<nly>Eolie browser includes a js blocker, It's not a plugin. It's there by default.
<nly>Eolie is packaged for Nix, so yeah even I'll give it a try.
<lfam>Cool :)