<Copenhagen_Bram>whoo... so i finally got guix to create a disk image (i still had to specify -no-build-hook) and dd'd it onto a usb drive. Now I must wait until my internet is fast and then finally install guixSD :)
<OriansJ`>It is not like a Slackware CD screams when you shove it into a blender
<OriansJ`>really really short version of the Code of Conduct: Don't be an asshole and try to be considerate of the people you interact with. This is a community where we want people to have positive experiences and where new people will feel comfortable to join.
<pkill9>rain1: can you provide a link to the GUI you made for helping write package definitions?
<rain1>what about adding just this one single concrete example?
<nckx>^ Not talking about Copenhagen_Bram, there, obviously!
<OriansJ`>Forbidding a phrase as universally unacceptable is ultimately going to be the wrong thing sometime in the future.
<OriansJ`>But the nice thing about this community is that many people are aware of the sort of things that some people on this channel might find less comfortable and provided we are all aware and considerate, I don't think policing will really be required.
<OriansJ`>Even those that don't agree with the very concept of codes of conduct need to be welcome, provided they adhere to the general understanding of being considerate of others.
<nckx>People saying ‘guys’ in here isn't really the problem. It's when they insist on repeating it after being asked not to :-)
<rain1>people are uncomfortable being publically shamed for accidentally violating a #guix norm that is not expected most other places. It is a repeating pattern here.
<nckx>The word ‘shamed’ has officially lost all meaning.
<rain1>not putting it in writing seems intentionally sadistic to be quite honest. if the code of conduct document does not properly inform you how to conduct yourself what is its purpose?
<OriansJ`>but rain1 is it actually shamed to be politely asked to stop? Or do you feel a private channel would be required for that?
<rain1>that's a good question. i don't think a second channel would be a good solution, it complicates things a lot
<OriansJ`>seems more often used between close friends/family or people trying to help others get better
<pkill9>yeah, i only imagine it being used to refer to women when it's between friends
<pkill9>well, looks like font directories are specified as a config flag for fontconfig (--with-add-fonts)
<mbakke>FWIW the GNU Collaborative International Dictionary of English defines guy (among other things) as: "4. A member of a group of either sex, usually a friend or comrade; -- usually used in the pl.; as, “tell the guys to come inside; are any of you guys interested in a game of tennis?”. [Informal]"
<mbakke>A couple of other dictionaries I've checked seems to agree.
<tune>The rule (in multiple languages) is generall that a group of males can be guys, and a mixed-gender group can also be guys, but a group of all females would be girls. Even then, I think "hey guys" would probably be fine in just about all situations. Even "dude" is gender neutral by now. Keep in mind that english is a living language and people are going to find new ways to use old words. I definitely think it's
<tune>a bit ridiculous to stop people from saying "hey guys". I also hope that the complaints are at least rising from someone being offended personally and not to try to be offended on the behalf of others.
<tune>as for the problem being more that someone is using a term after being told to stop, I think it's important to understand why they were told to stop and to possibly debate the reasoning behind this
<nckx>Good morning Guix! I fell asleep behind my keyboard and it was glorious.
<nckx>...aaand now people are being labelled ‘offended’ and sexist rules trotted out.
<OriansJ`>To save this channel, Please move all discussion about guix Code of Conduct and community behavior moderation to #guix-COC-discussion
<g_bor[m]>OriansJ`: +1, but then we should mention this new channel at least on the website, and whoever knows where else. Do we have a checklist on what should be done, when spinning up a new channel? How do we advertise it? (I'm willing to help)
<efraim>do i need to move my symlink from .config/guix/latest to something else? like .config/guix/current?
<g_bor[m]>efraim: I guess no. civodul wrote, that the .config/guix/current is created by the new guix pull, if I remember correctly.
<OriansJ`>g_bor[m]: We could always include a reference to it in the Code of Conduct. As for advertise it, one need only inform people to take conversations of that type to that channel where it belongs.
<Copenhagen_Bram>snape: Libreboot looks like GRUB but with a picture of a gnu and a penguin in the background. When I select the first option, the screen goes blank except for said gnu and penguin background. No password prompt, nothing. I tried typing my password even though there was no prompt, but nothing happens
<thomassgn>the thing about not using "guys" is that we don't need to use it, it can be discouraging to some, and it costs us nothing to use more inclusive words. And even though it is being used about several genders in some contexts and sometimes even used by non-cis-masculine people; may also be an indicator for how masculine our culture is. Maybe in a few years the barrier has become completely broken down, but as of
<thomassgn>now I'm quite sure there is a barrier there. I have friends, of several genders, using masculine denominators similar to "guys", I still wouldn't call them that. Just like I wouldn't call my friends with black skin "niggers" - even though they use that term about each other. But in the end it might be easiest to look at it from a cost perspective. How much does it cost any of us to change our use of "guys" to
<thomassgn>something gender neutral? I'd say close to nothing. How much does it cost to put of one contributor? even though that contributor adds a tiny package no one uses, I'd still think the cost is higher. And, as we've just seen on the ML's; text is really bad for communication. So keeping slurs or anything that can be edgy out of text communication is valuable.
<thomassgn>haha, I was reading higher up. Sorry. Should maybe have gone to the ML. :)
<thomassgn>rain1: I think writing specific cases like "Why we don't say 'guys'" is not very valuable. But, maybe we should write about why we avoid terms, even subtle, that potentially put people in boxes or others them; might be good idea.
<rain1>I see! how will people know not to say this particular thing without it being explained?
<thomassgn>by telling them I think. It's good to make small mistakes. That makes it easier for our community to train and stay vigilant for these things, and also to respond in a nice way to any microaggressions. They're not big things and we shouldn't treat them as such either.
<thomassgn>also, for any lurkers, seeing that when people make mistakes, they are gently corrected sends a clear signal. That we care, and we want to welcome anyone, and most important - we will take steps to try to make interactions as smooth as possible for all involved. I mean, I know there are a few - probably many, in guix that I fundamentally disagree with on lots of topics. But I don't disagree on or in guix. I
<thomassgn>want/need guix to be a good community focused on the OS/package manager.
<thomassgn>I also think we should remember that guix is actually doing quite well with inclusion and having a welcoming community. Pat ourselves on the back. But this, just like freedom, is a "struggle" that never ends. We need our utopia to have a goal to steer towards, but we will never land there. Which is why we need to be able to keep the balance, to continue training and remembering. In many ways this is the same as
<thomassgn>having "pests" and "predators" in a garden. If you kill all the pest, the predators go somewhere else, when the pest comes back it has free reign and will hit you much harder. blablabla :-P I'll check back in later. :-) thanks rain1.
<thomassgn>snape: Haha, neat. I see this concept coming up so often. Most forms of good vs. evil and balance theories, it's a common theme/subject in permaculture, some perspectives on health, vipassana/budhism. Probably a bunch more. :-)
<civodul>jlicht: "guix pull && guix package -u guix" as root, since normally the 'guix' package is installed in root's profile
<castilma>civodul: for contributors, the manual recommends linking ~/.config/guix/current of the user and root to the git checkout. what's the state with the current guix pull? is it possible, to share a guix between a user and root (to prevent rebuilding of the same guix twice)? (the new guix pull doesn't build the daemon, right? but the root user needs it.)
<jlicht>it's an old guix installation that I dusted off and recently started using again.
<snape>castilma: I'm not 100% sure but my understanding is that with GuixSD, doing 'sudo -E guix system reconfigure config.scm' will use your current guix package for the daemon, thus it'll be updated and you won't need to do 'guix pull' as root.
<castilma>LANG is de_DE.UTF-8. the other 2 are empty. trying to set it fails: export LC_ALL=DE -bash: Warnung: setlocale: LC_ALL: Kann die Locale nicht ändern (DE): Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
<rekado_>I think the primary problem was the server where hydra is hosted.
<castilma>k, tmux searches in /run/current-system/locale/2.26 but now only 2.27 exists. is that a known problem, that updating the systems glibc breaks all old binaries' locale?
<rekado_>castilma: you can install locales for older glibc versions.
<rekado_>the problem here is with glibc upstream; locale data of one version are not guaranteed to be compatible with another version, so we needed to patch the glibc to allow for versioned locale data.
<rekado_>castilma: you will also find that updating tmux will install a variant that is linked with glibc 2.27.
<Kiwihagen_Bram>How do I list what files are installed from a package? Can I list what files would be installed from an uninstalled package? I'd like to find the package that contains the clear and reset commands
<jlicht>Kiwihagen_Bram: not without having the realised derivation in your store, no
<jlicht>if you do have it built (using e.g. `guix build <...>'), you could just use ls/find/$YourFavoriteToolThatShowsFiles
<snape>Kiwihagen_Bram: but the answer is... 'ncurses'
<jlicht>but I think I am being deliberately obtuse about what you mean when you say "uninstalled" :-). If you meant to say uinstalled /and/ not yet built or downloaded, then the answer right now is no
<Kiwihagen_Bram>I see. It would take a database of installed files to do that. So, where would I use ls/find/$MyFavoriteToolThatShowsFilesIMustLookUpAListOfToolsThatShowFilesOnDuckduckgo to find a particular command?