IRC channel logs

<shiranaihito>rekado suppose icedtea is subtly broken, which causes an error for someone running a business.. generally we can rest assured that whenever there's an error in our software, it's our own fault .. but in this case, someone could spend days or weeks finding out the problem is in GuixSD's icedtea build/package

<rekado>and many of those packages don’t guarantee that their test suites actually pass.

<rekado>shiranaihito: that’s true for any piece of software.

<shiranaihito>(i.e. days or weeks of lost revenue/customers/jobs-of-employees, etc)

<rekado>ACTION is allergic to words like this

<shiranaihito>obviously i don't *know* that icedtea is "broken" in some way that could constitute an actual real-world problem, but it looks like it sure *could* be

<rekado>there is no guarantee that Guix is useful for any purpose.

<shiranaihito>allergic to what words?

<rekado>I *know* that icedtea is broken. I just don’t know *how* it is broken.

<rekado>it’s a big piece of software; of course it is broken.

<shiranaihito>rekado you know what i mean.. if it helps, let's specify: "broken in some ways that Oracle's SDK is not"

<shiranaihito>and it could well end up causing a real problem for someone

<shiranaihito>rekado i guess you're "allergic" to the word "revenue", or something?

<shiranaihito>i can't resist the temptation to go there, because.. well, you could say i'm allergic to people being allergic to the word "revenue" :p

<shiranaihito>anyhow, it seems GuixSD could have a verified-non-broken JDK in "Zulu" from Azul Systems, which is what i've been recommending / asking for

<rekado>I suppose you could build the Zulu JDK with the icedtea package.s

<shiranaihito>rekado i'm not sure what that means in practice

<shiranaihito>but it seems i'll need to use Zulu one way or another

<shiranaihito>(just like any other "business user" who's aware of icedtea's apparent brokenness)

<shiranaihito>(and to be clear, i'm not some "big shot business guy" .. i'm just a random guy trying to start a business, but i'm also trying to avoid potential trouble down the road, because my customers sure as fuck won't care about any problems i might have with icedtea - they just want my software to run and work so they can use it to get shit done)

<shiranaihito>(note also that businesses aren't inherently evil :p)

<rekado>icedtea is good enough to build itself and has been used to build a bunch of packages that all seem to work just fine.

<rekado>if that’s not good enough for you, you are welcome to build another JDK package.

<rekado>re businesses: I never said that businesses are evil. I just don’t think that a business use case is any more important than any other use case.

<rekado>ACTION goes offline

<shiranaihito>rekado it's mostly just that stuff not working has meaningful negative consequences for any business that has voluntary customers (i.e. is not being shielded from competition by a government, etc)

<shiranaihito>obviously a business use case is not any more important to you than any other use case (and that's fine), but for the aforementioned reason, stuff working is *much* more important in a business setting than a non-business setting

<shiranaihito>and if you do want GuixSD to be adopted as widely as possible (and why wouldn't you), business users are certainly worth taking into account

<shiranaihito>(not just because they're users, but because they would drive adoption and potentially even fund development)

<wigust>shiranaihito: No distro provides Zulu in their repositories, don't they?

<wigust>shiranaihito: There are Zulu DEB, RPM, tarball. If they are not present in any repository except Azul's one and every business user wants it, then it's probably a licence issue.

<catonano>ERROR: download failed "http://tarballs.nixos.org/sha256/166yy7nah2h2ffxqgb92nfwrvihna3kvdx4ryppf34gmybmmfw36" 404 "Not Found"

<efraim>What's supposed to be there?

<catonano>efraim: linux-libre-4.13-2

<catonano>if you can suggest me a paste service I'll paste a complete error message thee

<catonano>there

<catonano>ah there's the guile based one

<catonano>efraim: here https://paste.freshbakedyams.com/paste/3NCXU4LC

<catonano>I was trying to build an installation image from the branch with the graphical installer

<shiranaihito>wigust well, Azul says Zulu is free - i don't see any licensing issues there

<shiranaihito>it's probably just not that widely known

<shiranaihito>.. and other linux distros tend to include Oracle's JDK, right?

<shiranaihito>(so then there's no need for Zulu)

<CompanionCube>arch's repos have openjdk

<efraim>I don't think I have 4.13.2 but I can check

<efraim>shiranaihito: I haven't found the Zulu source code

<wigust>efraim: http://cdn.azul.com/zulu/bin/zulu9.0.1.3-jdk9.0.1-linux_x64.tar.gz

<Gamayun>As far as I can see from this, it's non-free software. Even the source code for the free parts they only make available 'upon demand': https://www.azul.com/files/zulu_third_party_licenses_v9.pdf

<shiranaihito>:)

<shiranaihito>oh? wow

<efraim>wigust: where did you get a link to that? Based on the x64 it looks like a precompiled binary

<wigust>efraim: https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu/

<shiranaihito>the PDF says "GNU General Public License, version 2, with the Classpath Exception"

<efraim>catonano: I do have a copy of linux-libre-4.13.2 at http://git.flashner.co.il:8181

<efraim>The checksum should match

<shiranaihito>Gamayun obviously i didn't read through the whole thing, but from what i've seen, it looks like they're just listing licensing terms they're obligated to list

<wigust>shiranaihito: It's a license of Openjdk which Zulu is based on.

<efraim>I don't see the source code for download

<shiranaihito>wigust yeah, i was thinking it might be the same

<shiranaihito>maybe this stuff clarifies something for someone here: http://zulu.org/forum/thread/bundle-zulu-community-jre-with-our-product/ :)

<Gamayun>Yeah, but since it mentions the 'third-party' 'portions of the software that are licensed under open source licenses', it stands to reason that the portions they produce are not licensed under 'open source licenses'.

<shiranaihito>Gamayun i don't see how that would be implied

<shiranaihito>they do have commercial offerings too, of course, they're a business after all

<shiranaihito>but as far as i can tell, Zulu is "free software" under the GPL license.. basically "just" OpenJDK that has been certified to work :)

<catonano>efraim: thanks !

<shiranaihito>anyhow, i sent them a message asking about the sources

<shiranaihito>but now i need to get ready for bed

<Gamayun>Well, it's possible they just compile it (and stick their trademarks on it, and make it available along with a pdf file that says 'certificate' on it). They do claim somewhere else that it is '100% open source'. But if they only provide the source (and build scripts?) they used to compile it when requested, and for a nominal fee, it's pretty hard to redistribute anywhere. Hmm...

<shiranaihito>Gamayun hopefully they'll respond and clarify the situation

<Gamayun>Yeah. They do list the licenses for their smaller tools fairly clearly..

<shiranaihito>Gamayun well, that's a good sign :) i saw them answering some questions on StackOverflow too, which was also nice

<shiranaihito>they probably don't get (m)any requests for the sources anyway - most users will be happy just running the binaries

<wigust>shiranaihito: if they claim themself as "open source" or even "free" then they should :-)

<shiranaihito>wigust yeah, it would make sense :)

<dway553>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! eaxkpu: neuromorphic phant0mas_ babyflakes CustosL1men cat slyfox catonano bmpvieira ArneBab_ pagurus kmicu alezost rekado ng0 contrapumpkin mt ijp lxo castilma Apteryx Acou_Bass einarelen nekomune efraim buenoua

<dway553>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! jkpufevh: babyflakes catonano kmicu mt Sleep_Walker ecraven slyfox pkill9 lxo castilma str1ngs daviid ArneBab_ tyng MinceR davexunit cat evhan cbaines contrapumpkin efraim akkad jchmrt phant0mas_ wigust nekomune tg robmyers Steap ij

<dway553>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! rruzmkg: bmpvieira mt Steap contrapumpkin joelpet MinceR emacsoma` davexunit kmicu slyfox neuromorphic lxo ng0 artyom-poptsov tg nckx CustosL1men Intensity evhan buenouanq castilma dvn nekomune ArneBab_ babyflakes Apteryx wigust robmyers tyng cbaines pkill9 ijp

<dway553>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! pqpqcuqnw: catonano roptat pagurus Intensity Steap bmpvieira buenouanq mt str1ngs joelpet ecraven davexunit phant0mas_ neuromorphic ijp daviid robmyers alezost dvn pkill9 k

<dway553>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! kvghymome: tg pagurus ijp babyflakes efraim cbaines bmpvieira nckx MinceR Acou_Bass Steap str1ngs Sleep_Walker kmicu pkill9 joelpet ecraven lxo Intensity wigust evhan cat rekado contrapumpkin CustosL1men castilma

<dway553>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! mtpyrqz: contrapumpkin str1ngs ng0 slyfox dvn pagurus Steap Apteryx emacsoma` roptat artyom-poptsov einarelen buenouanq castilma evhan bydo Acou_Bass robmyers cat wingo Min

<alezost>oh, no the spammer is here as well :-(

<dway553>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! kskgcshyq: mt nckx Sleep_Walker str1ngs davexunit ng0 slyfox lxo Intensity jchmrt tyng phant0mas_ robmyers ecraven ArneBab_ babyflakes kmicu bmpvieira daviid Steap dvn cat CustosL1men rekado wingo MinceR nekomune emacsoma` contrapum

<buenouanq>whoa boy

<niun958>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! ofoopvsdz: neuromorphic Intensity slyfox akkad artyom-poptsov daviid tg lxo contrapumpkin phant0mas_ nekomune bydo pkill9 davexunit Gamayun Apteryx joelpet rekado kmicu cstrahan buenouanq roptat cbaines dvn efraim Steap Sleep_Walker jchmrt nc

<niun958>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! tgrjvckj: Gamayun zacts Steap buenouanq MinceR artyom-poptsov evhan nckx str1ngs akkad pkill9 tyng ecraven mt phant0mas_ davexunit roptat rekado nekomune slyfox wigust Slee

<niun958>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! zvzqdtzag: efraim dvn bydo slyfox tyng bmpvieira pagurus einarelen zacts str1ngs lxo phant0mas_ ng0 mt daviid akkad cstrahan Intensity joelpet roptat Gamayun artyom-poptsov

<niun958>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! wkunanq: Acou_Bass contrapumpkin artyom-poptsov wigust Sleep_Walker tyng efraim pkill9 neuromorphic davexunit slyfox kmicu str1ngs evhan mt Gamayun rekado dvn catonano daviid jchmrt cstrahan Intensity ArneBab_ bmpvieira by

<niun958>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! gtyxl: kmicu ecraven catonano evhan slyfox Apteryx pagurus Steap tyng ng0 joelpet bydo pkill9 phant0mas_ wigust lxo MinceR Acou_Bass mt emacsoma` nekomune ArneBab_ Sleep_Walker bmpvieira neuromorphic babyflakes d

<niun958>▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! mnamlpuq: contrapumpkin evhan slyfox efraim lxo davexunit phant0mas_ tyng dvn zacts pagurus jchmrt Sleep_Walker cbaines daviid nekomune str1ngs akkad Apteryx mt nckx ArneBab_ wigust emacsoma` kmicu cstrahan joelpet einarelen Gamayun artyom-poptsov tg bmpvieira neuromorphi

<buenouanq>why do some things not have launchers that show up in gnome?

<buenouanq>the 2 I'm dealing with right now are puredata and calibre, I have to start them from the terminal

<buenouanq>is this a gnome thing or in our packaging?

<wigust>buenouanq: Yes packaging issue. There must exist an "applications" directory in 'ls $(guix build calibre)/share'.

<CharlieBrown>shiranaihito: Commercial software does not mean proprietary software. Being a business does not mean that it's obvious to sell a little bit of proprietary software.

<rekado>when I run “guix system reconfigure --no-grafts config.scm” I get this error: guix system: error: qemu-CVE-2017-15268.patch: patch not found

<rekado>that’s with the latest version

<rekado>I won’t try to fix it now, but I’ll look at this tomorrow.

<rekado>ACTION –> zzZ

<ng0>I'll close the Mate Desktop series patches later this week and will send in a revised set of them mid-January or even this week. This needs to be done in smaller pieces to be easier to review I guess, by the very long silence on them ;)

IRC channel logs

2017-12-25.log