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<bobpollaco>I have a problem with GNOME 3. When I drag an icon in the left pannel the session logs out automatically.
<buenouanq>bobpollaco: also happens if you try to rearrange the minimized windows
<buenouanq>though if you let go soon enough it stops before fully crashing
<bobpollaco>Is there some workaround?
<buenouanq>use Xfce ;3
<bobpollaco>but it is a problem of gnome? or guixsd itself?
<buenouanq>I have no idea.
<bobpollaco>ok, thank you!... I liked Gnome....
<buenouanq>I can't imagine Gnome would have been released like this, so my guess is GuixSD is missing something.
<buenouanq>Yeah, it's quite polished and nice.
<bobpollaco>Is this bug reported in some place?
<buenouanq>not that I know of
<buenouanq>not by me yet
<buenouanq>feel free to beat me to it
<buenouanq>I really should file more reports more often - Rather than just put up with shit, I should try to get it fixed.
<bobpollaco>Are you a guixsd maintainer?
<buenouanq>nah, I just lurk here
<buenouanq>learn things and help when I can
<bobpollaco>Haha ok, I'm new in the Guix world. I don't know anyone here at the moment.
<buenouanq>welcome to the future
<bobpollaco>I've been impressed by the clean install process it has. The documentation is wonderful too, I like the idea of Guix as a whole.
<bobpollaco>Where can I report the bugs I find?
<buenouanq>that we ever didn't do operating systems or package management this way retrospectively just seems insane
<bobpollaco>yeah true! I think the GNU/Linux world needs this kind of approach
<bobpollaco>OK, I'm subscribing to it. Thank you buenouanq. I have to leave now. Happy hacking!
<kevinfish>how do I find out what package a certain file/program is in?
<sneek>Welcome back kevinfish, you have 1 message.
<sneek>kevinfish, rekado says: The alsa-utils package provides “alsamixer”, which you can use to adjust the volume.
***Piece_Maker is now known as Acou_Bass
<jest_a_prank>I installed GuixSD at the last night, and I still got unbootable GuixSD without tweaking grub menuentry. In the menuentry, the script like this was put there: `search --file --set /gnu/store/hash00-linux-libre-4.8.15/bzImage \\n linux /gnu/store/hash00-linux-libre-4.8.15/bzImage --root=/dev/mapper/dec-root --system=/gnu/store/hash01-system --load=/gnu/store/hash01-system/boot \\n initrd /gnu/store/hash02-base-inird/initrd`.
<jest_a_prank>the problem was, there was no line like `search --file --set /gnu/store/hash02-base-inird/initrd`, which caused grub fail to find `initrd` in the way of boot.
<jest_a_prank>so I manually added `search --file --set /gnu/store/hash02-base-inird/initrd` at the head of script and make it booted, but I still fail to find where and how should I fix it on the guix system configuration.
<marusich>jest_a_prank, that search command finds the device containing the specified file (which happens to be the kernel image, although it could be any file on the device) and sets GRUB's "root" environment variable to that device.
<marusich>Here's the description of the command:
<marusich>Therefore, the lack of a second "--search" command for the initrd is not the cause of the problem.
<marusich>Something else is causing your system to fail to boot.
<marusich>I wonder: how have you configured your disk(s), partition(s), etc.?
<jest_a_prank>I configured MBR as the disk label and only one partition on the disk with encryption by using luks.
<marusich>How did you install GuixSD?
<marusich>(i.e., did you follow the manual's instructions verbatim?)
<jest_a_prank>I followed the manual:
<jest_a_prank>especially "the X11 display server, GNOME and Xfce" one.
<jest_a_prank>I used /etc/configuration/desktop.scm in the GuixSD USB boot.
<jest_a_prank>Ah, I forgot to say I configured that not exactly like `(file-systems (cons (file-system (device "my-root") (title 'label) (mount-point "/") (type "ext4") (dependencies mapped-devices)) %base-file-systems))` but like this: `(file-systems (cons (file-system (device "dec-root") (title 'device) (mount-point "/") (type "ext4") (dependencies mapped-devices)) %base-file-systems))`.
<jest_a_prank>because just using `(device "my-root") (title 'label)` couldn't boot as well.
<jest_a_prank>I referenced here: , and it said "... when the source of a file system is a mapped device (see Mapped Devices), its device field must refer to the mapped device name—e.g., /dev/mapper/root-partition—and consequently title must be set to 'device. This is required so that the system knows that mounting the file system depends on having the correspo
<jest_a_prank>device mapping established.
<jest_a_prank>the other stuffs were followed verbatim.
<marusich>I think your file-system definition might not be quire right... Don't you need to specify the absolute path to the device? i.e., not '(device "dec-root")' but '(device "/dev/mapper/dec-root")'?
<jest_a_prank>ah, I'm sorry. that's right. I misstated.
<jest_a_prank>that was my configuration.
<marusich>And it didn't work?
<jest_a_prank>No, It didn't.
<jest_a_prank>I dump here relevant lines in config.scm: (mapped-devices (list (mapped-device (source (uuid "uuid-of-/dev/sda1")) (target "dec-root") (type luks-device-mapping)))) (file-systems (cons (file-system (device "/dev/mapper/dec-root") (title 'device) (mount-point "/") (type "ext4") (dependencies mapped-devices)) %base-file-systems))
<jest_a_prank>"uuid-of-/dev/sda1" is actually a long hash.
<jest_a_prank>as you said, weird thing is that as I added "search --file --set /gnu/store/hash02-base-inird/initrd" in the script, It booted flawlessly.
<marusich>jest_a_prank, That seems correct. If it's alright, may I ask you to share your entire operating system configuration file? You can either email it to me at, send it via IRC, or share it via
<marusich>I can't figure out why that would cause a failure.
<marusich>Can you also share with me the grub.cfg file that did not work, and the one that did work?
<jest_a_prank>ok. thanks for your sincere help. please wait for minutes and I'll share it via that url.
<marusich>OK. I'll see if I can reproduce the issue in a QEMU virtual machine.
<jest_a_prank>wait, what...
<jest_a_prank>I booted without the tweak.
<jest_a_prank>It didn't work last night...;
<jest_a_prank>I share it anyway but now it works without `search --file --set /gnu/store/hash02-base-inird/initrd`
<jest_a_prank>I don't know why but...
<marusich>Do you recall what the error was when it failed?
<marusich>Perhaps it was an error that looked like a boot failure, but was perhaps something unrelated to Guix...?
<jest_a_prank>grub said like "cannot find the path of initrd"
<jest_a_prank>so I added that path by search command.
***Piece_Maker is now known as Acou_Bass
<jest_a_prank>To use swap space, should I set `swap-devices` in `operating-system` or just `mkswap path_to_swap ; swapon path_to_swap` and `guix system init /etc/config.scm /mnt` without setting `swap-devices` on `operating-system`?
<jest_a_prank>the tutorial on GuixSD manual and configuration examples don't write about which should be taken.
<jest_a_prank>the tutorial has a paragraph that `mkswap` and `swapon` is needed to use swap device, but It didn't write about how to turn it on.
<kadintrooper>Hey, so if I want to build bitlbee with --purple=1, is there any way to do that with guix package or do I have to make my own package description?
<efraim>you have to make your own package description, but its not too bad if you reuse the existing package description using 'inherit'
<kadintrooper>Also does anyone know if adb is packaged anywhere? Couldn't find it
<kadintrooper>Alright, I'll take a look at that thank you
<kadintrooper>It should just be a matter of adding a #:make-flags option right?
<kadintrooper>#:configure-flags, rather
<efraim>kadintrooper: adb isn't packaged but there was a post on guix-devel many months ago with a patch for it
<efraim>Changing the arguments field can be tricky, for one for yourself you can either copy over some duplicates or look for substitute-keyword-arguments for the complex version
<kadintrooper>Hmm, I just copied the definition from messaging.scm and added "--purple=1" where it needed to go, but I'm trying to install and it says ERROR: Unbound variable: guix
<kadintrooper>the only place guix is, is in the #:use-module statements
<kadintrooper>Nvm, it was because there was a duplicate
<kadintrooper>However now I'm getting Unbound variable: libotr
<kadintrooper>Which is in (inputs)
<kadintrooper>Aha got it, had to have the package definition for libotr in there
<efraim>i'm sorry I can't help too much ATM, i'm mostly afk doing other things :(
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<marusich>How are you doing? :)
<ryanwatkins>Hello civodul
<jest_a_prank>how do I delete old system generations like `guix package -d`?
<jest_a_prank>I can't find any deletion command of system generations on the manual.
<marusich>jest_a_prank, I don't think such a command exists yet. Here are some previous discussions on that topic:
<jest_a_prank>marusich: Wow, rigid answer that I wanted. thank you.
<marusich>Technically speaking, you can probably do sneaky things like run 'guix package --profile=/var/guix/profiles/system --delete-generations', but DO NOT experiment on a system you care about. Do it in a VM if you're curious; see '(guix) Invoking guix system' for information on how to launch VMs.
<marusich>Eventually, I suppose somebody who wants to delete their system generations will add support.
<rekado_>Hi Guix!
<civodul>hey rekado_!
<civodul>marusich: i think thomasd started to look at it, not sure what happened
<rekado_>I’m a little occupied this week. Trying to write a grant application.
<civodul>Guix related? :-)
<civodul>wingo: you'll like this one: ;-)
<civodul>ACTION goes afk for a bit
<rekado_>civodul: yes, related to Guix
<rekado_>lots of paper work
<marusich>civodul, looks like you have the power to summon individuals by ivoking their name :)
<wingo>yay thank you civodul :-)
<thomasd>marusich: I once sent a patch that implemented guix system delete-generations, by using the delete-generations from (guix script package), and reconfigured grub. That works, except that grub reconfigure ignores any extra grub-entries you may have configured.
<thomasd>civodul sent a reply on how that could be improved, it's on my mental todo-list :)
<thomasd>ah there's no more marusich here :)
<rekado_>can we build graphs from manifests before they are built?
<rekado_>a use case is to figure out what package pulls in a certain unbuildable package.
<rekado_>package-input-rewriting is super cool
<janneke>Hmm /gnu/store/h684zg6bx5kjhkjhbgdcdyplrbwpkczh-profile/libexec/git-core/git-sh-setup: line 46: /gnu/store/h684zg6bx5kjhkjhbgdcdyplrbwpkczh-profile/libexec/git-core:/gnu/store/2c05am2nb2850s5a7cybxmqrf5902h2k-profile/libexec/git-core/git-sh-i18n: No such file or directory
<lime_>so i have written my new system declaration, trying to reconfigure it but 'guix system reconfigure' errors
<lime_>what is the correct command to start this and may I suggest an edit in the man page
<buenouanq>guix system reconfigure path/to/config.scm
<buenouanq>as root
<civodul>janneke: export GIT_EXEC_PATH=$HOME/.guix-profile/libexec/git-core :-)
<janneke>civodul: great ;-)
<lime_>a .scm coming into channel
<lime_>once netcat compiles
<lime_> even
<lime_>it's breaking at the nss-certs
<janneke>civodul: damn...GIT_EXEC_PATH is not a gnu path, it's a `unix path'
<lime_>I'm guessing it's a package not a service?
<janneke>unix path aka directory
<buenouanq>nss-certs is a package not a service
<buenouanq>and shouldn't be wrapped in parens
<buenouanq> posting mine current config just because
<buenouanq> here's I think the smallest os config you can get away with
<lime_>I want gnome so I'm not overly fussed about tiny
<buenouanq>the `barebones' example provided isn't quite is all
<htgoebel>Hi guix,
<htgoebel>I just stumbled over an error when running "guix refresh":
<htgoebel> Starting download of /tmp/guix-file.wiuFPo
<htgoebel> From
<htgoebel> gnu/packages/kde-frameworks.scm:1165:13: threadweaver: updating from version …
<htgoebel> guix refresh: error: mkstemp!: Permission denied
<htgoebel>Of course I have write-permissions to gnu/packages and the file. But this directory is NFS-mounted with root-squash. Is this "mkstemp!" performed under my user?
<rekado_>htgoebel: is TMPDIR writeable?
<htgoebel>rekado_: yes, and it has free space.
<jest_a_prank>is mate-desktop package still under development?
<jest_a_prank>I mean, is not complete?
<rekado_>jest_a_prank: I don’t know if someone’s working on the MATE desktop.
<efraim>jest_a_prank rekado_ there's some mate packages on the maillinglist from last February or so
<jest_a_prank>rekado_, efraim: thanks for reply. I'll wait for MATE packages to be mature.
<civodul>janneke: yeah, but the GIT_EXEC_PATH thing is fixed in core-updates
<civodul>htgoebel: could you strace it to see where that EACCES comes from?
<lime_>done some more interesting work on the config.scm
<lime_>the error I'm having now is ice-9/boot-9.scm
<janneke>civodul: i wondered why you knew, that's the best possible answer ;-)
<ofosos>my guixsd install fails building guix, is this a known problem?
<lime_>hi ofosos
<ofosos>specifically 'guix system init /mnt/etc/config.scm /mnt' runs for a while then aborts while building guix
<lime_>through us a log of the problem, do you mean building from source?
<lime_>ah, paste bin your config.scm
<ofosos>i think it's building guix from source, this is the n8w6rd06ky...-guix-0.12.0.drv
<ofosos>where can i find the log :)
<ofosos>oh, /var/log/guix
<lime_>if you do guix package -i nc
<lime_>then pipe it into <insert termbin here>
<ofosos>hmm, the base image does not include links, lynx or curl, any way to upload it somewhere?
<ofosos>nope, netcat is not on the install image
<rekado_>ofosos: you can install things
<rekado_>ofosos: guix is available on the install image
<lime_>you can also install all those tools using guix package -i <package>
<ofosos>ok, i'm installing links and posting it into a gist
<htgoebel>rekado_, civodul: Me fool! I forgot "./pre-inst-env" :-(mayby mkstemp could report the filename?!
<htgoebel>Argl, but ./pre-inst-env guix refresh -u threadweaver fails with:
<htgoebel> Starting download of /tmp/guix-file.L4l7cJ
<htgoebel> From ftp://…
<htgoebel> ERROR: In procedure string-split: Wrong type argument in position 1 (expecting string): #f
<htgoebel>The file is no downloaded at all.
<thomasd>I'm reconfiguring on top of core-updates. Any issues I should know about before I reboot? :)
<civodul>thomasd: it worked like a charm for me!
<civodul>lfam has been running it for some weeks too
<rekado_>thomasd: I’m doing the same now.
<efraim>didn't we add wgetpaste to the install image?
<civodul>htgoebel: ouch, sounds like a bug in the updater
<lime_>damn reconfiguring!
<efraim>civodul htgoebel I came accross this myself on aarch64
<efraim>The bug is in the interaction I believe is between the daemon and ftp urls
<efraim>Only happened to me with ftp urls
<civodul>lime_: not working as advertised? :-)
<ofosos> here's the log
<civodul>oh it's a4f542341511f33ece18d16b68118214da8143ec
<lime_>probably is, having teething issues with my config.scm
<ofosos>hmm, i added some lines in front of the error message, it seems to complain when compiling vm.go
<lime_>fancy a wee look civodul ?
<rekado_>lime_: what errors do you get?
<civodul>htgoebel, efraim: fixed!
<lime_>ofosos: building only typically happens if you passed a flag tosay you don't want prebuilt packages,can we get the entire log or pipe the build log as it's happening to a paste bin if it got truncated
<ofosos>lime_: here's the full log of that one
<htgoebel>civodul: great! First package workes. Thanks for the quick response!
<lime_>trying to pastebin my error rekado_ termbin isn't behaving
<lime_>what did you command did you issue to make that happen>?
<ofosos>and now the gist includes the config.scm
<ofosos>i did guix system init /mnt/etc/config.scm /mnt
<thomasd>the texlive substitute for core-updates seems to be corrupt?
<ofosos>can't seem to see what's wrong. networking is up (can reach and cow-store is running
<lime_>guix system reconfigure doesn't pipe the output to anything but console, is there a reason for this?
<civodul>lime_: could you paste your config.scm file?
<lime_>had to pipe it to stdErr before it would be appear anywhere buut in the file, quite strange
<civodul>looks like you forgot a closing parenthesis or something
<rekado_>oof, with core-updates I need to build linux-libre.
<lime_>probably true
<rekado_> lime_: a closing parenthesis is missing at the end.
<lime_>either one to many or one to few
<lime_>the file needs a good tidy anyway
<rekado_>lime_: and you probably want (cons* nss-certs %base-packages)
<rekado_>not the other way around
<rekado_>(I checked the parens in Emacs)
<rekado_>same for the services: put %desktop-services at the bottom (it’s a list).
<ofosos>hm, i think i forgot to mount the new partitions, we'll see, i started afresh
<ofosos>lime_: it seems it started building guile again
<rekado_>lime_: what’s the current version of your config.scm?
<lime_>ah that would cause issues when your install medium ran out of space
***mildred4 is now known as mildred
<civodul>hey paroneayea!
<civodul>back from LibrePlanet?
<paroneayea>civodul: sorta? on the road from it
<civodul>how was it?
<paroneayea>civodul: I'm staying at my friend Bassam's place in western mass
<paroneayea>(you might know them as slikdigit elsewhere)
<paroneayea>civodul: it was super great
<paroneayea>civodul: realllly nice series of talks this year, and nice people
<civodul>sounds cool!
<civodul>i missed everything :-/
<civodul>i hope i can catch up with some videos
<paroneayea>yeah... unfortunately the screen part of my talk didn't get recorded
<paroneayea>but! it was partly an oral history
<thomasd>paroneayea: is that where you got to “hang out” with Gerald Sussman? :)
<paroneayea>the emacs shenanigans are probably not visible though
<paroneayea>thomasd: yes, Libreplanet is at MIT; I told Sussman about my talk ahead of time and asked if he'd be willing to talk about lisp history on friday... he couldn't then but welcomed davexunit and I on Saturday to his office over some really nice tea
<paroneayea>that was the high point for me for sure :)
<paroneayea>but he also came to my talk! he also answered questions for the audience
<paroneayea>and for me at a couple of points... I forgot whether Lisp 1 was written in assembly or Fortran (it was Fortran)
<thomasd>(not the Fortran part :) )
<paroneayea>heh :)
<catonano>ah, I would have loved a video o that ! :-/
<paroneayea>Sussman's answers are in the recording I think if it gets posted, though you probably can't see him
<paroneayea>but you should be able to hear him respond
<catonano>yay ! :-)
<paroneayea>you may have also seen a somewhat exuberant email to me to guix-devel partly thinking about things Sussman said :)
<paroneayea>er, from me
<paroneayea>I guess my email is mainly "can we use CI to let programs tell if they themselves should be upgraded to new versions and as well be moved over to new packages, before a human intervenes"... though that's an extrapolation of ideas, and not what Sussman was talking about exactly
<catonano>I saw your email !
<catonano>I read it !
<paroneayea>I'm hanging out with one more cool lisp person today
<civodul>heh Sussman discussing packaging and CI matters, that sounds fun :-)
<paroneayea>yeah :)
<paroneayea> genetic programming in lisp person
<paroneayea>civodul: in some ways he was talking about programs being able to tell at runtime or link-time about whether or not they could link to a new library or process by checking with tests
<paroneayea>I think he's been thinking a lot about how biological processes manage to get so much done when cells are individual machines
<paroneayea>he also commented to that effect that trying to build statically analyzed / proven systems for everything was hopeless
<paroneayea>since you often don't know what you want ahead of time, often just a direction, and it becomes very rigid
<paroneayea>if you try to prove everything first
<paroneayea>similar to some comments he has made in some other lectures recently
<civodul>right, i guess it depends on use cases
<civodul>some people are trying to make proving cheaper
<paroneayea>I think part of his point was also that you couldn't prove a whole human body
<civodul>and more widespread
<civodul>true :-)
<paroneayea>since the whole system is distributed between individual cells which only know so much
<paroneayea>his point that adaptability is more important
<paroneayea>in fending off against invaders, etc
<civodul>i guess you can have dynamic composition among cells, and then some level of "staticness" within cells
<civodul>for some definition of cells
<civodul>Haskellers want to fit the whole world in one cell ;-)
<paroneayea>I think he wasn't saying he was against it, is often for it
<paroneayea>but he's against it as a religion
<catonano>I thin he talked about this idea of adaptability in a talk on line
<paroneayea>"I'm against -isms"
<paroneayea>he also commented in my talk in response to a person who asked a question about when to use haskell or lisp or etc
<paroneayea>~"it depends on your problem... a good engineer should have a good toolbox"
<paroneayea>something like that
<lime_>as in, which version for me?
<paroneayea>lime_: right, you might use functional programming here, imperative here, a proven system here, but here you might need something more dynamic... but the glue between them will probably have to be dynamic
<paroneayea>how can you get a lot of differently working parts to work together?
<paroneayea>eg the human brain is a lot of independent parts which evolved to figure out how to work together
<paroneayea>some other interesting bits... we did talk about propagators a bit; I expressed that I wanted to use them on top of an actor model for anti-abuse tooling and he thought that was possible... "don't use my design necessarily"
<paroneayea>he also talked about how the lisp machine split affected him personally... he lost all his students!
<paroneayea>and also said that's why he decided never to go into business, because he saw how a bunch of the people at the AI lab who were friends and loved working together suddenly became enemies, and he didn't want that to happen to him
<paroneayea>hm, anything else interesting?
<paroneayea>we talked about math, and I told him I had a lot of trouble with notation, and he pointed out that notation is actually a rather messy natural language
<paroneayea>I never thought of mathematical notation as a natural language before
<civodul>it must have been hard to talk about the part (the lisp machine split)
<paroneayea>civodul: yes... I think, at least, it was very hard for him then
<paroneayea>one more thing we discussed that was hard for *me* to hear
<paroneayea>(not sure if people are enjoying this textwall or not)
<thomasd>go on :)
<catonano>yes he has an incredible talk on line about notation, tradition, how ormal languages (lisp) can help with that. I think the whole "Structure and interpretation of classical mechanics" is about that
<catonano>yes go on !
<paroneayea>catonano: yep you're right, he pointed to the book that inspired the addendum in SICM that complains about math notation, and how it influenced his work to make math notation that transformed directly to scheme
<paroneayea>anyway he talked about worse is better, and how it lead to the decision for GNU to be a (not) uni
<paroneayea>in a way that was surprising to me
<paroneayea>I already had picked up on it mostly but
<braunr>who ?
<paroneayea>braunr: sorry I'm talking about a convo with gerald sussman
<braunr>no need to apologize, i just can't find a name in all that text :)
<paroneayea>he talked about how someone had told him "the software you're writing isn't going to last unless it runs on the cheapest possible machines that are most accessible to the broadest number of people" (I forget who said it)
<paroneayea>and how this was hard for him to hear, since he was working on more powerful machines for simulation
<paroneayea>and the most accessible machines at the time were the PDP series, which were too slow to run his stuff
<paroneayea>and that they were right though, the stuff they were working on died out because those larger machines didn't survive
<civodul>well the Unix machines weren't exactly "cheap" back then ;-)
<paroneayea>comparatively though!
<civodul>yeah, i see
<paroneayea>and then he talked about how Unix and C were basically poor designs, bastardizations of Multics and (???)
<paroneayea>and the MIT hackers *knew* they were poor
<paroneayea>and he said he was at the famous meeting at bell labs where someone was talking to the hackers there
<paroneayea>apparently on ITS if a program crashed
<paroneayea>you could restart it with its state passing in new parameters
<paroneayea>and they asked how unix did it, and were shocked to hear that it just crashed, and that you watched for the value of some number to figure out how to proceed
<paroneayea>and that this seemed like an abysimally bad decision, and still is
<paroneayea>and how "C was the virus that carried Unix across the world"
<civodul>did he talk about Emacs Lisp?
<braunr>we all know the gpl was contagious, but c .. :)
<paroneayea>civodul: no but rms did on friday night
<civodul>i heard from an old Lisper that "everyone knew" that dynamic scoping was wrong when RMS chose that
<paroneayea>anyway I talk a bit more about this in my talk, but rms also told me in person that the primary decision about what to do with GNU was whether or not it would be unix or a lisp machine
<paroneayea>civodul: yes probably you mean olin shivers who wrote about this
<civodul>i think it was a French person
<braunr>i also have trouble with notation in maths
<paroneayea>civodul: rms also more or less asked me to condemn common lisp for having keywords in my talk and I didn't ;)
<civodul>heheh :-)
<paroneayea>so the way this relates to gnu, and how it's sad and hard for me to hear
<paroneayea>as you may know GNU became a "not unix" because it was supposed to be widely distributable
<civodul>that strategy kind of worked no?
<civodul>we don't know what else could have been
<paroneayea>and Unix ran on really low-end (for the time) machines, and also didn't require tagged architecture the way that lisp machines did, so lisp became a userspace program
<paroneayea>and also right :)
<civodul>so let's make GNU a hybrid Scheme/Unix thing! :-)
<paroneayea>keep in mind that GNU saved (Not) Unix, so maybe in an alternate reality GNU saved lisp machines :)
<civodul>right, who knows :-)
<catonano>I remember teh arguments about how garbage collecting was unsustainable
<civodul>we should write a fiction on that topic
<braunr>why is it "sad and hard" for you to hear ?
<paroneayea>so the sad and hard point was
<civodul>imagine if Android was a Lisp machine ;-)
<paroneayea>sussman said that Android was more important than GNU
<paroneayea>or something like it
<thomasd>civodul: was just thinking of that :) lispmachine steampunk
<paroneayea>that's a bastardization of what he said
<civodul>paroneayea: was RMS around? ;-)
<paroneayea>but what he said is, what runs on the cheapest hardware that is reaching the largest number of people?
<braunr>paroneayea: why is it sad ?
<paroneayea>braunr: because I hate android and like gnu :)
<braunr>why do you hate android ?
<paroneayea>but mit hackers hated unix and liked other designs :0
<civodul>ANG (Android's not GNU!)
<paroneayea>braunr: an exaggeration; I don't like some of its design choices but mostly I hate its development methodology
<paroneayea>it's very "throw it over the wall" from google
<paroneayea>no community governance in the direction of it
<braunr>i don't see why the lack of community governance is necessarily a bad thing
<catonano>I rememebr the same claim about chrome
<braunr>i remember the same about .. glibc .. remember ? :)
<paroneayea>I think there's also a big difference between gnu now and the situations then
<paroneayea>gnu can also run on many small devices
<paroneayea>however, it doesn't have a good interface there, so maybe it doesn't matter until it does
<catonano>gnome could be a layer on android
<catonano>with soe adaptation
<paroneayea>catonano: the best shot we had at that was the designs of the n900
<fps>*shudder* gnome ;)
<paroneayea>maemo 5
<civodul>GNOME and KDE are supposed to work with touch screens
<paroneayea>too bad it died
<paroneayea>civodul: yes but they don't work well
<paroneayea>anyway, one more recount of the stuff from then :)
<paroneayea>this one a bit more enheartening!
<paroneayea>Sussman pointed out how important it is from lispers to do the right thing and how good that can be
<paroneayea>and he picked up the common lisp the language second edition book!
<civodul>as an example of "how good that can be"?
<paroneayea>he pointed to some drawings of the math sketched out in it
<paroneayea>and how beautiful it was that the math was handled correctly
<paroneayea>I forget the right math term :)
<paroneayea>but anyway
<paroneayea>I also found it inspiring that despite how much lispers have religious wars between each other
<braunr>plotting ?
<paroneayea>braunr: something more specific, a type of math demonstrated
<braunr>a proof ? :)
<paroneayea>Sussman held up an example of Common Lisp as an example of beauty, and if Sussman can hold up another lisp as an example of doing it right and with fondness
<civodul>heh :-)
<paroneayea>then we all should all take note :)
<paroneayea>end of recount!
<paroneayea>I need to talk with my spouse about travel plans. suspending my laptop
<civodul>thank you paroneayea!
<paroneayea>hope you enjoyed the wall of text :)
<paroneayea>civodul: yw!
<civodul>super interesting
<braunr>paroneayea: i think we did
<thomasd>paroneayea: are you going to blog about this, for those who do not read the channel log?
<catonano>doing the right thing raises rowns in the industry, as ar as I understnd. They're more lie "getting things done"
<catonano>yes, the recount was important and beautiful
<braunr>catonano: it depends
<braunr>the problem with the industry is the huge demand
<braunr>which basically encourages companies to lower quality
<paroneayea>thomasd: I guess I should!
<catonano>paroneayea: of course you should !
<braunr>but it's such a plague that many people, in particular known people in the industry, writing ACM articles, are advocating increased penalties
<fps>every entity's cost function for optimal decision making is different. some align with GNU, most don't
<Apteryx>civodul: I found out that to generate the manpages database one should run "mandb $MANPATH". This tries to write the db files at the locations the manpages are found (they are found in the profile). Would it easy to add this command as a profile generation hook?
<jonsger>paroneayea: still using n900 :)
<catonano>paroneayea: maybe the mathh word was "homomorphism" ?
<civodul>Apteryx: definitely, i have an old patch for that in my git stash
<civodul>Apteryx: IIRC the remaining bit is that mandb doesn't write the db in the right place
<civodul>so it needs to be patched or something
<civodul>i guess i should take a look to be more specific
<Apteryx>civodul: Thanks. Usually the mandb is written to /var/cache/man or something like that. The value depends on "catpath" which is derived based on the man_db.conf file, which contains mapping between the "manpath" and the "catpath" (location of db files).
<Apteryx>In our case, it finds the manpages under /run/current-system/profile/share/man, which it has no mapping in that config file, so I believe the fallback in this case is to write the db files straight where the manpages were found.
<civodul>right, and this cannot work: we need to direct it to the output of the derivation
<civodul>i guess if you can find how to achieve that, we're all set :-)
<Apteryx>Looks like we should patch to add the required manpath --> catpath mapping.
<civodul>maybe we can do "mandb -C conf"?
<Apteryx>Simply setting MANPATH will not work. We have to pass it to mandb (figured this out by experimenting).
<Apteryx>mandb uses the config all the time anyway to determine the catpaths; the warning that "config file will be ignored sirce MANPATH is set" is bogus for mandb (its true for "man" alone I think).
<Apteryx>In mandb.c at line 835, under the comment "/* pick up the system manpath or use the supplied one */", we can see what happens when the "arg_manp" argument is not passed: it calls get_mandb_manpath which derives the manpath list from the config file.
<Apteryx>Oh, the file has some documentation about how it works. It says " For a manpath element to be treated as a system manpath (as most of those
<Apteryx># above should normally be), it must be mentioned below.
<daviid>ACTION just read the log, what a super interesting chat, thanks paroneayea!
<daviid>paroneayea: all these talks you do and tea meetings with sussman must go in a book
<daviid>i didn't not know rms was against keywords
<htgoebel>JFYI: ATM I'm updating kde-frameworks to 5.32.0
<civodul>Apteryx: so creating a custom man_db.conf would be enough, in the profile hook?
<civodul>htgoebel: cool!
<Apteryx>Yes, although since the manifest-inputs are (IIUC) items from the store we'd need to add as many entries as discovered to the config file, under the "*MANPATH* -> *CATPATH*" section.
<htgoebel>civodul :-)
<htgoebel>civodul: This is why I needed the ftp-download fixed ;-)
<Apteryx>Also, what would be the chosen CATPATH (path of man db files) ? Was this "man-directory" variable you have in your patch intended to contain these?
<daviid>paroneayea: let us know when the video of your talk is online...
<civodul>Apteryx: yes, man-directory is supposed to be where the result goes
<Apteryx>civodul: I understand now the use of -C to specify a custom config file ;). We can't hack the original one here.
<rekado_>paroneayea: very interesting! Thanks for sharing!
<rekado_>I agree with others who have said that these discussions over tea would deserve to be put into a more permanent and accessible form like a book
<Apteryx>What is the best way to form a temporary file path inside a gexp? Can I use the (getenv "TEMPDIR") trick?
<rekado_>Apteryx: what are you trying to do?
<civodul>Apteryx: just write to $PWD, it doesn't matter
<civodul>(call-with-output-file "mandb.conf" ...)
<rekado_>note that temp files often have random names, so you would need to be sure that they don’t end up in the build output (for reproducibility)
<Apteryx>rekado_: I'm adding something to the man database generation patch (profile hook) that civodul posted above. Basically create a temporary mandb.conf which will contain manpath --> catpath entries so that we can control where the database files get written to.
<Apteryx>civodul: I'll try that. Thanks!
<Apteryx>I'm a bit struggling with a regexp/literal to use for substitute*. I want to match the following literal: "# *MANPATH* -> *CATPATH*
<Apteryx>(it's on 2 lines).
<Apteryx>And here's what I tried so far: "# \\\\*MANPATH\\\\* -> \\\\*CATPATH\\\\*\\\\n#"
<bavier>Apteryx: substitute* can only match a single line
<bavier>i.e. the regexp is applied to one line after another
<Apteryx>bavier: I see. Now I'm trying to use a more brute force approch where I simply append to the original file, using `file-append`. It's in a gexp, so I would expect that this already is defined, but I get a "unbound variable: file-append" triggered by "memoize-variable-access".
<Apteryx>Oh, I think I just need to ungexp it using #$
<Apteryx>Hmm... but that's not what I want. I'm appending some content which is to be calculated at runtime, it shouldn't be eval'd before.
<Apteryx>Is there a guile function I can use instead of (guix gexp)'s file-append?
<bavier>Apteryx: if you have a gexp already, I think you can just include the code that write the lines you want in the gexp
<Apteryx>bavier: But how do I write the lines? Using Guile directly? First time I do I/O in guile :)
<bavier>Apteryx: maybe just strings, depends on what the rest of the gexp is doing (e.g. using text-file*)
<efraim>qtbase built just fine on aarch64
<bavier>ACTION afk
<Apteryx>bavier: It's in a rough state but it currently looks like this:
<Apteryx>At first I was thinking to use substitute*, but that ended up being more complicated that I hoped, so I tried file-append from (guix gexp), but that fails with strange dependency problems. So now I'm thinking I'll do it using Guile's standard library.
<Apteryx>I have to get some sleep. Hopefully I can find out how to do it tomorrow, or I'll read some hint here :)
<bobpollaco>buenouanq, I have found a workaround that repairs the GNOME bug that hangs completely the de
<bobpollaco>Here is the link to the explanation:
<bobpollaco>Where are the fonts installed with guix located... I can't find them with the gtk3 programs with the font selector
<catonano>bobpollaco: it's the same iissuue as wiith the cursors
<catonano>I think
<catonano>Pjotr wrote about this too
<catonano>but I don't remember where :-/
<bobpollaco>oh no, is working fine... It seems that is needed a logout
<catonano>ah ok
<catonano>bobpollaco: anyway, I was referring to this
<bobpollaco>I don't understand that link. What happens is that I installed font-inconsolata and it didn't appear in the font list, but then I removed it and installed adobe source pro... and the latter appeared in the font list. Don't know why...
<slim404>I'm new to guixsd
<bavier>slim404: greetings
<ofosos>moin again
<ofosos>now running guix sd :)
<bavier>ofosos: cool!
<ofosos>lime_: thanks for your help
<slim404>bavier: hi :)
<slim404>civodul: hello :)
<ofosos>I'd like to package up darktable, a digital darkroom software, it's available under gpl, but it's not built with the gnu build system, it uses cmake, where to I go to read up on how to integrate that with guix?
<civodul>ofosos: roelj has been working on it, but maybe you can help
<slim404>I have a little question
<slim404>Where do I put a script so it could be in the path?
<slim404>What's the guix sd way?
<lfam>slim404: I'd put it wherever you want, and then modify $PATH in ~/.bash_profile to include that location
<slim404>lfam: thanks :)
<janneke>ACTION i re-subscribed to guix-patches -- weird excessive bounces thingy
<ofosos>hmmm, i'm pretty regularly getting 502 bad gateway from
<civodul>ofosos: do you have an example of a URL that gave you that?
<lfam>civodul: Have you had any luck loading the Hydra web interface today?
<civodul>lfam: yes, though i haven't tried to do much with it
<civodul>the machine is almost idle right now
<lfam>Hm, I just wait for a while and then the connection is closed
<lfam>Well, did libgc build for ARM? :)
<ofosos>civodul: guix substitute: error: download from '' failed: 502, "Bad Gateway"
<ofosos>this url seems to persistenly return 502
<ofosos>currently prevents me from installing moc
<civodul>ofosos: oooh, thanks
<civodul>'guix publish' aborted without a message nor a core dump :-/
<civodul>ofosos: should be fixed now
<civodul>we went OOM
<civodul>lfam: anyway, looks like the answer is yes: :-)
<civodul>or is it?
<civodul>"not yet" seems more accurate
<lfam>Hm, it's been ~2 days now
<ofosos>hmm, i want to apply a patch from debbugs (darktable), what's the correct place to apply that patch to?
<ofosos>guix substitute: error: download from '' failed: 502, "Bad Gateway"
<ofosos>civodul: doesn't look fixed
<civodul>ofosos: that's because there's some caching taking place
<civodul>for now you can either use the --fallback option
<civodul>or temporarily (really!) use --substitute-urls=
<civodul>or just wait a little longer
<lfam__>Perhaps is filtering my requests; I can connect just fine from another network
<ofosos>overall, i think i'm pretty happy with guixsd, everything but wifi works (installed on an x220), the package system is great, the init system is great
<civodul>so was there anything else we should look at on core-updates?
<civodul>lfam__: or should we just merge while nobody's paying attention?
<lfam__>Hold on, let me go back to the other network
<civodul>ofosos: thanks for the kind words, glad you like it!
<ofosos>civodul: i have to thank you, it's great work
<ofosos>i ordered a wifi stick to connect to wifi, for now i'm laying on the floor, next to my router
<civodul>kinda inconvenient ;-)
<rekado_>I just finished reconfiguring with core-updates.
<ofosos>i see, simply doing M-x guix-locations and i can edit the stuff
<civodul>or M-x guix-edit
<civodul>rekado_: did it go smoothly?
<lfam_>civodul: It might be controversial, but I'd merge it. Most of the failures on Intel-compatible systems are resolved since the last evaluation. Armhf is still far from done, but it doesn't seem to be progressing...
<lfam_>And whatever "real" failures remain, it seems that nobody sees them or is interested in fixing them
<lfam_>We can't wait forever
<ofosos>civodul: do i have to guix pull to get an editable version of the guix package?
<lfam_>ofosos: The best thing to do is use Git to clone our repository, which is here:
<ofosos>and then work with guix package -f ?
<rekado_>icecat doesn’t seem to be available yet (core-updates)
<rekado_>ACTION retries with --substitute-urls=""
<lfam_>That must have been invalidated by the nspr update
<lfam_>I'd start a new evaluation but I'm unsure of the state of the current one. Is it really still building the armhf packages, or is it stuck somehow?
<civodul>lfam_: it's building armhf packages, and there's only 1 ARM machine up ATM
<lfam_>I recommend we stop building the current evaluation. Since the NSS / IceCat job has been invalidated by a later nspr update, that one armhf builder will spend many hours, maybe even a day, just building packages that we don't need
<lfam_>We can start a new evaluation of core-updates and merge it after we're satisfied or, if we are impatient, just merge it now and evaluate master.
<lfam_>Oh, IceCat doesn't depend on nspr. But NSS does
<civodul>lfam_: sounds good to me
<lfam_>I think it was taking efraim >10 hours to build on his machine
<civodul>anyone has David Craven's 5F43B68104372F4BA898A64B33B9E9FDE28D2C23 key?
<lfam_>civodul: I've got it
<lfam_>Should I send it to you?
<civodul>or to
<civodul>i can get it from there
<civodul>spawning gpg to verify each commit is terrible performance-wise
<civodul>i wonder if gpgme does something smarter
<lfam_>Yes, it's pretty slow
<lfam_>Although the *real* slowness comes when you lack the key and it tries to fetch it
<lfam_>civodul: I just canceled the latest core-updates evaluation's remaining builds
<lfam_>civodul: AFAICT, that key is on the key servers. At least, it's on the SKS keyservers
<lfam_>I assume it's on but their web interface appears to be having trouble currently
<civodul>lfam: i got the key from sks-keyservers
<lfam>Do we have something that corresponds to `eject` on Debian-based systems?
<lfam>I guess we are using util-linux's eject
<civodul>lfam: yes
<civodul>which one does Ubuntu use?
<slim404>Where can I find the hydra public key?
<lfam>It appears to have the same origin; both are originally credited to Jeff Tranter: <>. I'm not sure when they diverged
<lfam>Perhaps as far back as 2004
<ofosos>do i have to be careful when doing guix system reconfigure?
<lfam>ofosos: Not unless you made a change to the GRUB package. The system roll-back mechanism relies on a working GRUB
<civodul>slim404: in the Guix tarball or your Guix(SD) installation
<slim404>civodul: thanks
<ofosos>lfam: nice :)
<slim404>civodul: it seems I lost my tarball. Where else I could find it?
<rekado_>slim404: you can download the tarball from
<rekado_>civodul: there were no errors but I haven’t yet been able to reboot into the new system. Will do this tomorrow.
<rekado_>ACTION —> zzZ
<slim404>rekado_: thanks