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2017-03-17.log
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<koosha>I wanted a resource for learning about guix repositories and how they work . The opreations that user does with them and so on . Thank you . <rekado>koosha: you can find information in the manual looking for keywords such as GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH and “guix publish”. <koosha>rekado: I meant the process that repos work . <efraim>thomassgn: I packaged onionshare and I tested it on Debian but not on guixsd. It does require having a running tor daemon but I don't know if it needs anything special in terms of settings <jmd>buenouanq: Helping gnunet would be easier if they eleucidated a clearer idea of 1) What its purpose is. 2) What the short- and long-term goals are. <buenouanq>I feel those are very explicitly stated on their wobsite. <buenouanq>if you still have questions, try asking in their room <jmd>Oh you mean their channel. <buenouanq>read that page though, I think it's every explicit about goals <jmd>I had visions of me having to go to Hamburg or wherever they are incorporated. <ryanwatkins>jmd: presumably it is munich based from the looks of things :P <efraim>finally built mysql with -c1 -K, failed tests are pfs_host-oom, pfs_user-oom, pfs <ryanwatkins>Hey guys, is there any way to use a vnc server on guixsd? <civodul>i don't think there's a VNC service yet <civodul>though i guess you could run the thing "by hand" <civodul>ryanwatkins: could you email bug-guix@gnu.org about it? <civodul>make sure to mention the Guix commit you're using <civodul>and whether you've done modifications, or used --with-input or something <ryanwatkins>civodul: sure, is there a template for emailing the bug mailing list? <civodul>no, but that'd be a good thing to have <civodul>i was just rebuilding automake with guile 2.2 and i see this problem too, hmm <ryanwatkins>civodul: strange right? I am too unfamiliar with things atm to figure much out <ryanwatkins>still reading through guile/guix manuals and the 2006 nix paper, I am really new to software deployment in general but witnessed the horror of npm first hand at my last job and from generally using Pacman in Arch <roelj>Is there something special with 'version' when inside a (modify-phases (replace 'build ...)) construct? It seems to replace 'version' with a function called 'version' instead of the version field of the package.. <roelj>Oh, nevermind, I was screwing up on the quasiquoting.. <roelj>By the release announcement of Guile 2.2 I learned about 'guix pack'. How long has it been in Guix? <efraim>if my error is "stack_bottom = 0 thread_stack 0x0" can I assume I ran out of memory running the test? <jmd>efraim: I dunno. I've never encountered that error. <erliphant>Just a heads-up - hydra.gnu.org looks like its in a bad way today. It's very slow and producing lots of gateway timeouts etc. <jmd>erliphant: I noticed! <efraim>I bumped my swap up to 6 GB and I told it to try again. Too bad it takes so many hours to build <jmd>Is the current hydra lack-of-responsiveness related to the core-updates merge effort, or is it another problem? <wingo>could be the rdiff backup thing that civodul mentioned the other day <erliphant>question: I've got a pre-built version of a package dependency in my local store but guix seems to want to rebuild it from source. I've not specified --fallback. Is this expected? <erliphant>I mean are there circumstances under which this is expected? <bavier`>erliphant: it's possible that copy is not the one guix is looking for <erliphant>bavier: it really should be (same guix /recipes / deps etc). Is there an easy way to check? <erliphant>One other thing is that I'm using a file:/// url - perhaps this is bypassing the normal substitute logic? <jmd>Has anyone ever attempted to package Isabelle? <bavier`>jmd: I recall it being brought up before <jmd>It seems odd that we don't have it, unless there was some obstacle. <erliphant>just an update: hydra.gnu.org looks much healthier <rekado>jmd: on the website they mention among the requirements: “Desktop environment that works with Java/AWT/Swing” <rekado>if Isabelle requires Java it may be a little difficult to build it completely from source. <erliphant>bavier: file:// urls definitely seem to trigger different behaviour when it comes to substitutes. I can change the HTTP url and it's obvious that it's not actually trying to download the source. But the moment I make it a file:// url it wants to access the source code locally. <bavier`>erliphant: are you changing the source uri for a package? <erliphant>I'm experimenting to see what happens. Changing the source URI doesn't seem to change the "identity" of a package if the hash doesn't change. This sort of makes sense. <erliphant>bavier: I guess if you move the source but it's the same content then you shouldn't invalidate all your existing builds <rekado>ACTION installs the first GuixSD server at work. <Wapanese>guix package: error: gksudo: unknown package <rekado>davexunit: …and my first problem is getting an IP :) <rekado>Wapanese: I don’t know if gksudo is actually packaged. <Wapanese>rekado: I want to use sudo without problems with permissions. <clacke[m]>package for gksudo is gksu, but yeah that's not in there either <clacke[m]>Wapanese: be aware that tools that require the suid bit only work on GuixSD and only if installed as system packages <Wapanese>The capture session could not be initiated on interface 'wlp6s0' (You don't have permission to capture on that device). <davexunit>not sure which group you need to be in, though <clacke[m]>network interfaces aren't files (grrr), I'm not sure groups help. I always ran wireshark as root too. <rekado>unfortunately, I still cannot run “guix gc” on my laptop. <rekado>it says “database disk image is malformed” <rekado>I *can* open the sqlite database with sqlite3 as root <clacke[m]>Is it possible to recreate the db by nuking it and running "guix gc --verify=repair,contents"? <clacke[m]>Or does that work the other way around and relies on the db being correct? <joshuaBPMn_>quick question. I see that guix has a google summer of code proposal for making a guile specific build system, because autotools is showing its age. Why reinvent the wheel? Isn't the gnome project building a new build tool (written in python)? Why not use that? <clacke[m]>There's a GSoC for a guile-specific build system? Funny thing, the last two weeks I have been thinking that I should make a guile-based generic build system, possibly utilizing guix for build caching package components. <joshuaBPMn_>clacke[m]: Yup. You should check it out. And Yes! Meson was what I was talking about. I wonder why guix doesn't want to use meson. <lost-my-login>By guile-specific build system, you mean something like make for Guile? <clacke[m]>autotools detects features in the system, sets defines, generates makefiles <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login: It would replace autotools. So it would replace ./configure; make; make install; <clacke[m]>Finds where compilers and other tools are, etc. <joshuaBPMn_>meson is one such alternative build system. the problem (slight problem) is that it is permissively licensed. And It's written in python, so I guess it wouldn't interact with guix so well. <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login: The way they wrote it, it sounded like they want this new guild build system to replace autotools. <clacke[m]>We're doing some pretty quirky things though, which Meson doesn't support out-of-the-box. Mixed toolchains for different parts of the build system, many different types of tools and artifacts, even reports. Internal sub-dependencies, parameterized by system configuration. In particular, I think my friend who evaluates potential future build systems said Meson doesn't yet have a way of defining external dependencies that <joshuaBPMn_>BUT meson is already really better than autotools. AND it runs well on Windows and Mac (and GNU/Linux). So an application can be debugged natively on windows. making windows and mac support much easier. <lost-my-login>this is a FSF-approved distro. Fairly sure no one gives a crap about Windows <joshuaBPMn_>clacke[m]: What kind of project are you working on? That sounds really complitated. <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login: Not true. One of the reasons that many people may switch from Windows or Mac, is software that originally targeted Linux. <joshuaBPMn_>Also I know that John Wigley uses a Mac, and he's the Emacs maintainer. <lost-my-login>I'm not going to debate the value of supporting Windows, just that I question how much the FSF or Gnu projects care about it <joshuaBPMn_>I agree that GNU/Linux should be the main target, but it's not a bad idea to make a platform agnostic build system that works everywhere. <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login: Well autotools supports building programs on Windows and Mac. Perhaps not as well as they could, but it does work. <clacke[m]>If anyone is confused: Guix uses autotools to setup compilation of its C parts (as well as generating the makefiles for the Guile parts). Now double-checking if what I'm saying is true. :-) <lost-my-login>I'm also rather dubious about how complex the system would have to be to support all three. Mac I'd imagine is a reasonably low hanging fruit since it's already a Unix, but Windows... <clacke[m]>joshuaBPMn_: automotive safety systems for several different applications for several different platforms with different safety requirements within one build system. <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login: That's why meson is pretty awesome. it already supports all 3 OSs very well. <clacke[m]>joshuaBPMn_: I'm sure most of it is accidental complexity, but there is some intrinsic complexity to it, for sure. <joshuaBPMn_>And I'm not trying to bash autotools. I'm not an experienced enough developer to know. But there's a reason that guix devs want to build a new build system, and there's a reason that meson is growing in popularity. I believe gnome is going to start using meson. <clacke[m]>Frankly, I think doing any kind of build on a Windows system is just the wrong way to go. We're moving to cross-builds from Linux. Managing any kind of Windows CI environment is just exhausting. <clacke[m]>"We keep getting this inconsistent state on our Windows slaves." "Ok, we made a detection and cleanup thing." "Nope, Windows is locking those files." "Alright, we'll have to reboot and clear workspaces then, just like we were already doing." <clacke[m]>Seriously, our Windows Jenkins slaves have jobs that automatically reboot them if they're idle for a bit. <clacke[m]>My long-term vision is doing all builds from within Guix. Linux and Windows builds, with non-guix-specific artifacts. <clacke[m]>Lingering processes are hard to kill, and they lock files. <clacke[m]>Also lack of ubiquitous package management and containerization is a hassle. And license nonsense. <clacke[m]>It's a semantic bug in the original conception of the OS. Impossible to remove 22 years after the fact. <lost-my-login>Not impossible, but it would mean M$ was willing to actually improve their OS <clacke[m]>The one thing MS has going for them is crazy levels of backwards compatibility. <davexunit>they have to maintain crazy backwards compatibility because everything is proprietary <clacke[m]>If they start improving Windows for real, there is no reason left to stay on Windows rather than going full free software. <lost-my-login>davexunit: The company that released the software probably does. Maybe. <davexunit>people always complain about binaries not working on Linux (sic) and cite Windows as how to do it right <lost-my-login>clacke[m]: If they gave a damn, I'm sure they could figure out how to get around that <davexunit>without realizing that GNU/Linux distros don't need endless bianry compatibility because they can just recompile when they need to <[df]_>I hear even the backward compatibility thing isn't so hot since windows 10 <davexunit>yeah I have no idea what the state of things is <lost-my-login>Yeah. Fairly sure Windows doesn't support Win95 software anymore, and hasn't for a while <clacke[m]>Building on Wine rather than on Windows would remove our troubles. <joshuaBPMn_>davexunit: I've never actually thought of windows having a hard time maintaining backwards recombatibility. But I guess it does make sense, if all the software is proprietary. <lost-my-login>Which is a shame, because there were some good games on Win95/98 <lost-my-login>davexunit: Do you happen to know anything about installing X on Guix? <clacke[m]>lost-my-login: Windows 64 doesn't support Windows 16 anymore. For everything else, there's a compatibility mode. <[df]_>there was a blog that told all sorts of interesting stories about windows backwards compatibility and the crazy hoops they jumped through to support legacy stuff <clacke[m]>So it's Windows for Workgroups 3.11 that isn't supported anymore. Unless you run a 32-bit Windows 10 (IT EXISTS) <davexunit>lost-my-login: I don't know much beyond making sure that you include the xorg-service in your guixsd config <[df]_>ah, raymond chen was the guy <lost-my-login>davexunit: Ah. I was hoping for a cut-and-paste of the gexp needed to set xorg-server setuid <clacke[m]>If you WfW 3.11 application was a Win32s application though ... still supported. (I think, not 100% sure on this one) <davexunit>lost-my-login: I believe the OS config object has a field for setuid binaries <lost-my-login>clacke[m]: yeah. Supposedly IBM's mainframes will run software from the 60's unaltered <clacke[m]>the IBM i OS still supports binaries from the time before, get this, before there were microprocessors. <lost-my-login>I glanced at IBM's website the other day; I didn't see mention of vacuum tube 'software', but I did see mention something about Very Old versions of their OS <clacke[m]>not sure about the 60s, but early 70s yes. and possible certain software from the 60s <lost-my-login>Hrm. Were vacuum tubes still in use in the 60's? Now I don't remember <clacke[m]>I get confused about all the System/36 and System/38 stuff, all I know is what the wikipedia pages say <clacke[m]>so they had transistors, just not in a single chip <lost-my-login>yeah, I'm just trying to remmeber when tubes were phased out <jmd>lost-my-login: In some applications they are still used. <clacke[m]>The intel 4004, the first microprocessor, came out in 1971 <lost-my-login>jmd: Yeah, but I'm talking about their use in computers instead of the transistor <clacke[m]>I know a guy who listens to internet streams through a vacuum tube amplifier. Probably just to annoy people. <lost-my-login>It's my understanding that some people just prefer the sound you get out of a vacuum tube system. Or it's better quality. Something like that <jmd>Yeah. I know a few guys who say that. Frankly I don't beleive anyone can hear the difference. <clacke[m]>" A "second generation" of computers, through the late 1950s and 1960s featured boards filled with individual transistors and magnetic memory cores " <clacke[m]>I believe you can hear the difference, but probably could achieve the same effect with some filters, digital or analog. <clacke[m]>So the transistor was invented in 1947 and within ten years it had already taken over the computer industry. That is remarkable. <davexunit>I'm completely unconvinced of the supposed superiority of vacuum tubes in audio equipment <davexunit>expensive maintenance costs for 0 improvement <clacke[m]>Same with vinyl. Yes, the sound is probably different. But that's because the vinyl is a filter. Model it when you master your FLAC and you're good to go. <davexunit>vinyl is fun because it's a physical thing and you get those little pops of static electricity from the needle <lost-my-login>Vinyl also wears as you play it, so the sound quality degrades the more it's used <davexunit>I don't currently have a turntable, my old one died, but I will get a new one sometime so I can listen to records again <jmd>Can one still purchase them? <davexunit>audio technica makes a good, reasonably priced, turntable that I would like to buy <davexunit>and lots of bands release vinyl pressings these days. <jmd>I had a few discs from the days before they were vinyl. <jmd>Unfortunately a friend of mine dropped them. <davexunit>you often get a digital download key for buying a vinyl record as well <davexunit>I don't know much about that. audio production isn't my thing, but I do prefer lower production values, generally. <davexunit>as in, less messing with the sounds that the mic picked up. <jmd>Yes. And the power rating of most amplifiers has gone from average-rms at 2% THD to peak-rms at 15% THD. <lost-my-login>the problem is that they turn up the recording volume until bits of the high and low end are lost. It isn't anything special they are doing other than literally losing data for no reason whatsoever <jmd>davexunit: What? THD? <jmd>Total Harmonic Distortion. <davexunit>lost-my-login: pretty pedantic but thanks for the correction. ;) <lost-my-login>Is it penantic to point out something that's becoming a lost reference? A cane is a poor choice to pull someone off a stage with, but a crook is designed for that <davexunit>lost-my-login: it's a bit nitpicky but I appreciate the nitpick in this case ;) <lost-my-login>clacke[m]: Yeah, but usually not big enough to fit around one's neck. trust me, I've tried it. <lost-my-login>hmm. Anyone know if a system reconfigure is doable w/o bringing the system down? <clacke[m]>who am I to disagree with empirical evidence <clacke[m]>--> system reconfigure is doable w/o bringing the system down <-- That's the idea. <clacke[m]>I don't remember having any issues, but I haven't used GuixSD and NixOS that much yet. Not as my primary OS. <lost-my-login>and unless you know Guile, it isn't exactly obvious in some cases <thomassgn>so does anyone know how would I go about checking why shepherd disables a service? <davexunit>lost-my-login: as a beginner, I recommend adding gnome-desktop-service or xfce-desktop-service from (gnu services desktop) to your OS config <davexunit>that will include an X service among other things. <lost-my-login>davexunit: Except I don't use either of those, and I really would prefer to figure out how to get a system that I want. <lost-my-login>If I wanted something that "Just Works", I'd be on Mac or Ubuntu or something of that nature <thomassgn>tor, I guess I could run it and see the error... <lost-my-login>Think I'm probably going to just copy this LiveUSB image back to my disk and do all this in a VM so I have a usable system in the mean time, at least until I get X running <clacke[m]>well, you could start with a Just Works xfce system and continue working from there ... <lost-my-login>thomassgn: Interesting. I can't comment on that, but I think ng0 has been handling that service, or if he isn't then he may know who is. <lost-my-login>clacke[m]: yeah, and start out in an enviroment I don't want to try and get to one I wouldn't mind when I already have an enviroment I sort of like and qemu I can use to figure this stuff out <thomassgn>lost-my-login: ah, nice. I'm quite sure there's something with my config. Just need to figure out how shepherd calls tor, looking for the service definition now... :P <davexunit>lost-my-login: look, I'm recommending that as a complete newcomer, maybe starting with something already prepared for you and learning from it would be the best first step. <davexunit>and then you could get the system that you wanted later. <lost-my-login>I'm also not married to this install, so it isn't a big problem <davexunit>gnome-desktop-service just incorporates a bunch of other services, so you can inspect the source and see which things you want and don't want. <davexunit>in fact, maybe just use %desktop-services instead <lost-my-login>I wasn't dumb enough to jump ship into an unknown distro that is still in beta, /then/ try and get things working how I want it <joshuaBPMn_>so how long does an update normally take for you guys? This past weekend I updated guix (I hadn't updated it in a while via guix pull; sudo guix pull) and it took several hours to do. Is that normal? <davexunit>it doesn't install any desktop environment at all <lost-my-login>joshuaBPMn_: On my Gentoo system, it usually takes me a few minutes <davexunit>lost-my-login: current slim-service will get you an X server <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login: You could try a bare bones system. It's in the documentation. And I think that guix should probably get a wiki going. The Arch wiki is amazing in this regard! <davexunit>lost-my-login: okay then you have to write your own service from scratch. <clacke[m]>guix pull on my slow VPS (i think 2 cores, 512 MB RAM) is less than 30 mins <lost-my-login>joshuaBPMn_: they want to avoid wikis. I already mentioned it before and they would prefer to improve documents so a wiki wasn't needed <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login: Yeah on Parabola an update is super fast because they just send the binaries. But I suppose moving to a funtional system has some drawbacks. <davexunit>you need to be clear about what "update" means <lost-my-login>Depending on how how much is installed and how long ago it was you ran 'guix pull', I could see it taking quite some time to do that since it also 'accidently' runs some other stuff (like grafts) during most operations <lost-my-login>davexunit: That's the nice thing; I don't want a service for X. I want to login to a shell, then run startx (or whatever) and get a GUI when I want it. Nothing more and nothing less <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login: Really? What!? That sounds super odd. The Arch wiki is soooooooooo helpful. It can have package specific information, that wouldn't fit well in the official manual. That and having a wiki means you get free documentation that improves itself. Why wouldn't you want a wiki like Arch? If I want to know how to install a specific package in Arch, I'll check the wiki. If I want to install a specific package in gu <joshuaBPMn_>davexunit: I said that updated meant sudo guix pull; guix pull; <lost-my-login>So you ran guix pull as root, then again as user, and it took several hours? <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login. Yup. It said updating list of subsistutes, so I believe it is using those. <jmd>What timezone are the dates on hydra.gnu.org ? <joshuaBPMn_>I don't think it compiled everything locally. I'm assuming that hydra.gnu.org only has so many pre-build-binaries. And I just had to compile some stuff locally. <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login: I feel like I compile all the time. Maybe I should double check that I am enabling substitutes. <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login: how so? I had a weird issue where it didn't like emacs, awesome, or i3-wm in the packages section. What issues do you have? <lost-my-login>joshuaBPMn_: I seem to recall a bug where guix does grafting during most operations, and I also seem to recall some packages don't graft properly for various reasons, so maybe it was having to recompile some software <lost-my-login>joshuaBPMn_: Oh, I think it's just me refering to som things in the config that aren't installed and hoping Guix is smart enough to say "This isn't installed, so I'll support setuid for when it is installed", but it isn't that smart <joshuaBPMn_>hmmm. I wonder why grafting would be so hard....You're just telling software to depend on a new binary...right? <lost-my-login>joshuaBPMn_: The idea, iirc, was to just replace/patch the binary with the new data, except not all bins store that data in any sane manner <lost-my-login>Some will store it abcde, some ab ... ce ... d, and some it is entirely jumbled <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login: Ok. I thought grafting would only involve replacing a file. I didn't realize it was more complicated than that. <lost-my-login>If you aren't, subscribe to guix-devel@gnu.org if you want to keep an eye on developemtn and things like that <joshuaBPMn_>lost-my-login: I am subscribed, but I don't read it all the time. :) <erliphant>I think some of the packages on the guix mirror are corrupt. When you get them from hydra.gnu.org they are fine but the mirror.guixsd.org is broken. The Python package in particular seems to have problems <erliphant>actually .. maybe it's not working on hydra either <jmd>erliphant: Have you tried guix challenge on the ones you think are broken? <erliphant>jmd: is there a way to setup a private mirror of hydra? <joshuaBPMn_>I just tried to run guix system reconfigure /etc/config.scm, and it failed because "no space left on device". <bavier`>joshuaBPMn_: have you run 'guix gc' recently? <joshuaBPMn_>bavier` probably not. I'm deleting stuff now. It looks like a lot of files are being deleted..... <joshuaBPMn_>Well my root device just went from being 91% full to 75% full. <joshuaBPMn_>I can probably still delete some old generations or something.... <bavier`>joshuaBPMn_: 'guix package --delete-generations=1m' or so <joshuaBPMn_>wow. My root files system just went from being 75% full to now at 67% <thomassgn>efraim: I found that onionshare version 0.9.2 cannot connect to the tor daemon through controlports; it needs the tor browser for control. The current onionshare has this feature, v1.0. Was looking at making a package definition for v1.0 but there are so many things I need to read up on to make this work... :P <clacke[m]>evangelising guix in the #picolisp channel :-)