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<ng0>on "it's probably easy" as famous last words: firefox doesn't look that difficult either.. only some changes to icecat and some understanding needed which can only be found through grep, debug and coffee.
<ng0>well.. some/many
<efraim>I decided the easiest option for isl was to unpack the tarball, run autoreconf, and pack it back up. I didn't bother paring down the differences so my patch is 1.2 Mb
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<efraim> http://sigaintevyh2rzvw.onion/ free small-mail mail server, totally getting a couple of accounts to send mail from other machines to my mail server
<efraim>have to get the system mail from logwatch, apt-listchanges and unattended-upgrades somehow
<civodul>i thought you were saying the service you mentioned above spams your server, no?
<efraim>oh, no
<efraim>i just went to rip out exim from my RPi and stick in msmtp, only to realize I already had ssmtp installed but improperly configured
<roelj>I'm trying to build a package for which the source code has gone away. I do have the tarball in the store, but Guix does not seem to recognize it..
<roelj>guix build: warning: transformation 'with-source' had no effect on perl-b-hooks-endofscope-0.13
<roelj>I used guix build perl-b-hooks-endofscope --with-source=/gnu/store/...perl-b-hooks-endofscope-0.13.tar.gz
<roelj>What I can do now?
<civodul>roelj: the file's basename has to match the package name, see
<roelj>civodul: Thanks, as always :).
<civodul>yw :-)
<roelj>Hm. One of its dependencies cannot be found either, so I built it using guix build <package-name> --with-source=<package-source>
<wingo>any blockers to using guile 2.1.3 in guix? :)
<wingo>i mean for guix itself
<roelj>but then when installing perl-b-hooks-endofscope, it still tries to download that dependency, and thus fails..
<rekado>civodul: I don't have a libreboot machine --- yet. I'm testing a new flasher from a completely free hardware design (even the microcontroller's design itself is under GPL), developed by some FSFE fellows in Berlin.
<rekado>the flasher worked fine on some X200 machines, but failed on my X200S.
<rekado>hopefully we can flash my X200S on Saturday after fixing the remaining issues.
<civodul>wingo: i think it's just the "skip incompatible .go files" thing
<civodul>other than that it should be fine
<wingo>i guess we'll get that into 2.0.12, rebase guix on 2.0.12, then try again; sound about right?
<civodul>yes, definitely
<civodul>rekado: that sounds exciting!
<civodul>roelj: could be that you the dependency you built with --with-source is seen as different (different hash)
<civodul>roelj: what's the guix commit and missing source files?
<roelj>civodul: I had: b9cbfa52f71505de8447fefabd97f16d0a9cbde6, but now I've also tried with the latest.. Both have the same problem (well yeah.. people threw away tarballs..)
<roelj>the missing source files are B-Hooks-EndOfScope-0.13.tar.gz and Variable-Magic-0.55.tar.gz
<civodul>ACTION looks
<roelj>civodul: I have these tarballs in the store at my laptop, and I'm trying to build stuff on a server.
<roelj>So I copied the tarballs from my laptop to the server, to use it with the --with-source option, so these should be the same.. Let me verify that..
<civodul>the good news is we have substitutes for these two tarballs
<civodul>so you can always get them from there
<roelj>civodul: Ha! Well, I'm doing something that probably voids the warranty though.. I use a different store prefix on the server. So I cannot use those substitutes
<roelj>Nevertheless, this problem of disappearing tarballs keeps happening to me..
<civodul>it's also at
<civodul>which is one of the mirrors we use
<civodul>same for the second one
<civodul>i.e., "guix build -S perl-variable-magic perl-b-hooks-endofscope --no-substitutes" works for me
<civodul>only it tries several CPAN mirrors before finding one that has them
<roelj>Right. Mine ran out of mirrors, let me grep for this one
<civodul>the first one is also at
<civodul>so there's no way we can miss it :-)
<civodul>would be nice to check the URLs that were tried on your side and what happened exactly
<roelj>This is the output
<roelj>It seems to not check all mirrors
<roelj>This output comes from "guix build -S perl-variable-magic perl-b-hooks-endofscope --no-substitutes"
<roelj>How odd
<civodul>commit 552ffa021ce87ece4aeecf5c8d9786f559991d3a removed from the mirrors, which is the one causing problems here
<civodul>well no, it's not particularly problematic
<civodul>but i think you're using a commit before that one, and maybe before the one that added too
<roelj>Doh! Let me verify that :)
<efraim>it turns out there were like 400 cpan mirrors and only a handful keep a more full archive
<efraim>I haven't figured out a good solution for debian tarballs, so no sources available currently for moreutils unless we downgrade to debian stable's version or upgrade to current testing/unstable
<roelj>So, when compiling the latest guix git checkout, I run into:
<roelj>after running ./bootstrap
<roelj>Any ideas?
<efraim>debian started packaging refind
<roelj>It prevents the creation of
<roelj>Ha! I did: mkdir \\%D\\%; cd \\%D\\%; ln -s ../doc/guix.texi; cd ..; ./bootstrap; And that worked! :P
<civodul>what version of Automake do you use?
<roelj>automake (GNU automake) 1.13.4
<roelj>Right, so %D% should be replaced with something..
<civodul>this is extremely old, consider ugprading :-)
<roelj>Well.. it's CentOS 7..
<roelj>I think we should keep the build system compatible with that..
<efraim>i got hit with needing to aptitude-hold automake-1.14.1 for a while when 1.15 came out because I had ./boostrapped with that version
<roelj>What features of new Automake versions does Guix use?
<roelj>I have automake-1.15 in the guix store.. Maybe I can use that instead
<efraim>guix environment guix -- ./bootstrap
<efraim>works great until you run guix gc
<jlicht>o/ guix
<civodul>it would be nice if importers had a --search option
<civodul>because often you don't know exactly what the upstream name might be
<civodul>like "guix import elpa --search foobar"
<efraim>i was thinking for when the import fails to decipher the import it could just spit out the json instead of a backtrace
<roelj>I compiled Guix using Guix's automake instead of CentOS's..! Finally..
<roelj>And it just downloaded B-Hooks-EndOfScope from a mirror. So yeah, a newer git checkout fixes my problems
<roelj>Thanks civodul !
<efraim>can I create 64-bit bootstrap-tarballs on a 32-bit system?
<civodul>roelj: good news!
<civodul>efraim: no
<civodul> <- time for a press release too? :-)
<civodul>we can get inspiration from them
<civodul>"Guix has been available for a range of GNU distributions for several years. It allows application developers to build against a series of stable platforms (known as runtimes), as well as avoid bundling libraries directly within their applications."
<civodul>"A growing range of applications are already available in Guix, including LibreOffice, the GIMP, InkScape, MyPaint, Darktable, and a large number of stock GNOME applications."
<civodul>marketing is terrible
<efraim>I always read it as "THE GIMP"
<efraim>I would consider pointing out the cli options on top of other distroskl;'
<efraim>gah, papercut and keyboard mash
<civodul>ACTION is concerned about the effects of ever stronger marketing in the free software world
<civodul>it seems there's less and less room for rational thinking
<civodul>and that software, even free, is more and more a matter of control over the many
<wingo>dunno, gnu started as a story too
<efraim>lost my train of thought but I think it was about user controlled binaries, reproducibility, fully independant existance on top of a host distro or a standalone install
<efraim>or give a shout-out to parabola too with "A first-rate libre distro like trisquel or parabola"
<pksadiq>ACTION thinks of "One True Free Operating System"
<efraim>I added a patch to isl that should resolve the aarch64 issue I had last week, just need to build it out and try trimming the patch down to a managable size
<davexunit>civodul: mcron-service! very cool.
<davexunit>one more step towards GuixSD for server workloads
<roelj>Does the Guix project want to ultimately create a system distribution (GuixSD) or is the GNU Guix/Linux (guix-on-top-of-another-distro) something the project will keep on supporting?
<davexunit>roelj: we already have a system distribution
<davexunit>I use it on two of my computers
<davexunit>Guix on a foreign distro is a second important use-case that we intend to keep supporting
<roelj>davexunit: Yes I know GuixSD exists.. but what is the goal of the project.. or are the package manager AND the system distribution both goals of the Guix project?
<roelj>davexunit: OK
<davexunit>can't have the distro without the package manager
<davexunit>so yes both are goals
<civodul>wingo: yeah, but GCC, say, was an instrument to give more power to the people, whereas Docker (say) is foremost more power to Docker Inc., Habitat is more power to Chef Inc., etc.
<civodul>it seems there's a real imbalance that is/wasn't there with the "grassroots" projects
<civodul>ACTION is a incorrigible utopian :-)
<pksadiq>I think things like 'cloud' (what ever its called), is making GPL obsolete.
<davexunit>seems like I missed an interesting discussion :)
<civodul>davexunit: on marketing in free software :-)
<davexunit>civodul: scanned the backlog and found it.
<davexunit>honestly I'd be fine with a marketting style press release for Guix in response to Snappy and Flatpak
<davexunit>so many people just have no idea that Guix exists
<davexunit>Nix is also not super well known, but people will bring up Nix in threads about Snappy/Flatpak/Docker/etc.
<davexunit>but no one really ever mentions Guix
<civodul>some do, it seems
<civodul>ok, i did recently ;-)
<davexunit>yeah usually I mention Guix in an attempt to get exposure
<davexunit>I don't know if this problem can be fixed, but Guix also tends to be seen as "unpractical" because it's a GNU project
<civodul>it's hard to impossible to beat the marketers in their own domain, though
<davexunit>but I think we just need to be more visible
<davexunit>we don't need to stoop to the marketing BS language, though
<Kooda>I have friends who I’m sure would be interested by guix but don’t try it because it’s a GNU project. :|
<civodul>davexunit: you mean we should or should nto use BS language?
<civodul>(my poor English shows)
<davexunit>civodul: should not
<Kooda>ACTION is currently installing GuixSD on his laptop. :D
<civodul>Kooda: it'd be interesting to learn more about their perception
<davexunit>we can promote guix and market it without looking like that Habitat website that is 100% buzzwords
<Kooda>civodul: it seems more like a feeling than anything else
<wingo>civodul: i'm down with the utopia :) i just think people never made decisions rationally in the past, no reason to expect it in the future, and no reason for guix to shame story-telling; we need stories too :)
<davexunit>just stories with less empty buzzwords :)
<civodul>yeah, i'm fine with that
<civodul>but Flatpak et al. are not just "stories"
<davexunit>highlighting the many use-cases of Guix in a friendly way might be cool
<davexunit>there are stories to tell for desktop users, server admins, software developers, etc.
<davexunit>might be nice to highlight that prominently on the home page
<ng0>sorry to interupt this discussion, just wanted to say i dropped a broken, untested, firefox wip in a thread, to ask an example case for when an in-file substitute gets too long and a .patch should be used
<ng0>140+ lines of substitute to enable system harphbuzz and graphite2.
<davexunit>ng0: just fyi, we cannot include a package named "firefox" in Guix without violating Mozilla's trademark
<ng0>oh.. right
<ng0>i pointed that even out in the comments of the file
<ng0>just missed the name :D
<ng0>"aurora" is not trademarked..?
<Kooda>I was about to suggest that. :)
<ng0>that's the branding i use
<ng0>what is the discussion about, counter buzzword products and how to sell guix in that context?
<ng0>if it doesn't add confusion, we could call firefox "IceFeline" .. an idea for later is also to provide browser extensions and not rely on the mozilla store for this.
<pksadiq>ng0: Isn't firefox bad to be included in guix? it checks for signed addons, connects to internet for updating cache (without knowledge of user), etc.
<ng0>i only do this for a base of torbrowser.
<ng0>you can provide your own base settings
<pksadiq>ng0: Hm.. but it should have sane defaults. I love Debian GNU/Linux for this
<ng0>my knowledge about the addons is not so good, but it is possible to disable the checking. if it is built only with our store plugins (guix package -i icewhatever-baseextensions) and then only install extensions through guix and not firefox, that would be something to consider.
<ng0>ACTION compile icecat with the system harfbuzz+graphite2 patch
<ng0>as i expected, things changed between 38.8 and 45.0 .. but it should be doable with some fixes in the patch
***pksadiq` is now known as pksadiq
<davexunit>civodul: that flatpak thread is depressing
<davexunit>ACTION works on his humble build farm
<davexunit>'git worktree' is fun for having multiple versions of guix checked out at the same time so I can build packages for each of them
<civodul>that's a new thing in 2.9.0, right?
<davexunit>not sure when it was introduced, but our git has it. :)
<civodul>cool :-)
<ng0>ACTION updates parallel while waiting for icecat source
<paroneayea>I need to upgrade my postgres cluster!
<paroneayea>has anyone done this in guix?
<paroneayea>it looks like pg_upbrade is the right path
<paroneayea>davexunit: civodul: it looks like upgrading postgresql means needing to keep around the older postgresql binary. What do you think of keeping the "prior version" (or last few versions) of postgresql around?
<paroneayea>as installable packages
<ng0>new parallel includes many shell specific files, package needs to be extended, and some we haven't even packaged yet i think... env_parallel.{bash,csh,fish,ksh,pdksh,tcsh,zsh}
<civodul>paroneayea: that sounds reasonable
<civodul>but yeah it's an instance of the problem where you can downgrade the software but not the associated state
<paroneayea>civodul: yeah
<davexunit>how do other distros deal with this?
<paroneayea>davexunit: I think debian handles it on the upgrade scripts
<paroneayea>arch has a postgresql-old-upgrade package
<davexunit>so looks like you have the right idea, then!
<Kooda>Sorry to interrupt… is there a way to specify a default console (and/or X) keymap in the system configuration file?
<ng0>I'll be brave and build firefox/aurora now, to get some debugging output
<ozzloy>guix marketing blurb: guix thinks outside the box in its search for the holy grail, understanding that there is neither a magic bullet or a slam dunk method, so it rolls with the punches and lets the chips fall where they may while seeing the glass as half full. use it today, it's a no-brainer!"
<ozzloy>from 17:29
<ozzloy>adapted a little
<efraim>qt hotfix for 5.6.1, new version is 5.6.1-1, the 5.6.1 release got pulled
<ng0>oO you what. "node not found" ... i seriously hope this is a sidenote in firefox, and not that I missed the memo of nodejs being a requirement now
<kr_>Hello, does anyone know if it is possible to use popen in shepherd's init file without making it crash ?
<kr_>I need to parse some command output but the doc says that popen should not be used with waitpid but shepherd seems to use that to check for his child processes.
<ng0>s/can define custom configs/have to define custom configs .. in firefox. or at least a base.
<davexunit>ACTION noticed that running 'guix archive --authorize' with the same key will just keep appending duplicate keys to the acl
<kr_>Okay I kind of circumvented the issue by running the code using a shepherd service.
<kr_>It still crashes the service but at least not the whole shepherd user instance...
<ng0>distrowatch is funny... or did guix really originate in USA? I though europe so far.
<ng0>not that anyone should ever pay attention to dw
<davexunit>distrowatch is wrong
<ng0>distrowatch is one of those things which needs to go away fast.
<ozzloy>in my experience, distrowatch has already gone away. it probably has some dwindling subset of the audience it had in its hayday
<ozzloy>so... mission accomplished!
<ng0>i don't remember how it was around ~1999
<ng0>but if it's less today, than it's good.
<paroneayea>might be time to finally switch from elpa magit to... latest magit
<paroneayea>or rather
<paroneayea>from the git I stubbornly have prevented elpa from upgrading for two years
<paroneayea>er, magit
<ng0>firefox base work in progress name is now icepanda. for more silly names because of trademarks.
<ozzloy>why not icekat?
<ng0>i like pandehs. another idea I had was icefeline. my friend was like "red panda!".. but it's just wip, so maybe we end up with aurora. who knows
<ng0>isn't firefaux to close to the original for tm?
<davexunit>could be :)
<ozzloy>seriously though, why not one of the existing alternate names?
<ozzloy>iceweasel or icekat (are there others?)
<ng0>i don't know all the existing names
<ng0>icecat we already have
<ng0>iceweasel will be inappropriate due to debian using it and this will differ from debian
<ozzloy>and icecat?
<ng0>see guix package -s icecat
<davexunit>ng0: debian just uses "firefox" now
<davexunit>mozilla has made an exception for them
<ng0>also i think names can be discussed before it's pushed :) I just had very little sleep due to waking up through pain at 5 AM and thought now icepanda is okay
<ozzloy>i thought debian didn't do "special exceptions for debian"
<davexunit>ng0: I should also mention that your firefox package would need to remove the default add-on repository as it contains nonfree software
<ozzloy>i thought the change for that was on firefox's side
<ng0>it's a work in progress, getting slowly to the point
<ozzloy>something about the difference between normal releases and ESR
<ng0>i'm happy when it builds, everything can be removed and altered then
<ng0>the future case could be an mozilla importer and we could use the guix store for browser plugins
<paroneayea>ng0: debian is no longer calling it "iceweasel" anyway
<paroneayea>they've apparently switched back to just "firefox"
<paroneayea>(very recently)
<efraim>yeah, i kinda miss the old name
<ng0>but only in the sid/unstable?
<efraim>and in testing
<ng0>I had this a few months ago
<ng0>the biggest annoyance will be fixing this up from just en-US as a base to every l10n:{linux-i686,linux-x86_64}/$isocode/firefox-$version.tar.bz2
<ozzloy> this says it's mozilla that fixed the objections debian had
<ozzloy>and not debian making an exception
<ng0>and the current guidelines only state that "making significant functional changes" prohibits a downstream project from using the Mozilla trademarks.
<ng0>we would have to look into the precise deifntion of that
<ng0>but with the intention in the future to not use the store, and to not use the mozilla store at all, who knows
<ng0>still reading, so maybe it's in there
<ng0>but this seems to be just debian and deriviates.. I'm too tired to look into the details today, maybe it's more open and allows us to actually name it firefox.
<efraim>icepanda was starting to grow on me
<paroneayea>let's name it after an ice pokemon
<paroneayea>that won't have trademark issues
<ozzloy>speaking of names
<paroneayea>hey, don't make fun of *our* name now ;)
<ozzloy>i've seen a few videos online where it's pronounced in a way that i would spell "gix"
<ozzloy>and also "geex"
<paroneayea>It's like "geeks", yes
<paroneayea>and yeah, that's unexpected to most people :)
<paroneayea>but you get used to it!
<ozzloy>but from the spelling, it looks like i'd say "gwix" or "GOOEY X"
<ozzloy>"unexpected to most people" is a good indication that it's a bad name
<ozzloy>well, spelling, at least
<paroneayea>clearly it should be geekz
<ozzloy>geex would probably be good
<paroneayea>get that 90s rebel kid marketing on
<ng0>here's what I think, leaving aside names and tm's: firefox-esr as a base for torbrowser, the base firefox being first removed of any access to non-free extensions and plugins, and later to remove/alter the plugin checking and import addons which are possible to import (license) into for example webbrowser-extensions.scm
<ozzloy>what needs to happen for the name to change?
<paroneayea>ozzloy: that's a huuuuuge conversation to even consider
<efraim>if you meant firefox there's a couple of flags you can set during configure time
<paroneayea>I also kind of doubt Guix will change as a name. But maybe the pronunciation should be more visible on the website.
<ozzloy>then guix is doomed
<paroneayea>ozzloy: :P
<efraim>is guile-static the bootstrap guile?
<ozzloy>doomed to a life of super duper niche
<ozzloy>is widespread acceptance a goal?
<ng0>efraim: i know, and the build profile thngie.
<ozzloy>i kinda thought it was, but maybe it isn't?
<paroneayea>ozzloy: people said the same thing about "Linux" as a name
<paroneayea>because it should be pronounced either "Loonix" (like Unix) or "Line-uhks" (because Linus)
<ng0>name.. we could have the phonetics of guix on the website
<paroneayea>and if anything, the name "Linux"... well it swamped another name in the popular tongue..
<paroneayea>so I'm not worried too much.
<paroneayea>I don't think that's Guix's primary barrier.
<ng0>GNU's not (Lin)u(k)s
<efraim>nvm I found guile-bootstrap in the graph here
<ng0>that made no sense. so tired.
<ozzloy>GNU is another terrible name
<ozzloy>in terms of pronouncing
<ng0>we have the animal gnu.. that's how i pronounce it usually.
<ijp>could be worse, it could be NGU
<ozzloy>it could be better
<ozzloy>we could have a name that is completely intuitive to pronounce for a large majority of the population
<ng0>I might have found a way for l10n inclusion in firefox, but should we, if possible, ship a firefox will all languages or one firefox per language?
<ng0>i'm thinking of binary size..
<ng0>no idea if it will be that much bigger
<davexunit>ng0: multiple outputs could be used to split up the locale data
<efraim>we have a "popular-languages" glibc-utf8-locales package
<efraim>split by language? language family?
<efraim>or there's always 'murican and "other" :)
<ng0>hm... i think this is getting to the point where my main focus is falling behind. I can fix up a basic package which has all languages, the rest someone else can take on. I'll decide when I'll get it all to build.
<ng0>how can "guix download" work on a list of files? just append them all after the command, or can it get an input file?
<efraim>if you need more than 1 you can add the others as inputs and stick them in the right spot or apply as a patch as an added phase
<ng0>this one game with the many data-sources is an good example, but i feel like this can be handled differently.
<ng0>this is what I would need, twice:
<ng0>only twice if i686 packages differ in checksums
<ng0>why would languages differ. I'd say it's only a structure thing
<ng0>I'm still learning, so something in a package like "for i in (list of languages) do wget uri:// , then unpack and use in the package" ... well the closest which I get to this currently is this one big game with mapping
<davexunit>weird. running the same version of guix on two machines. one from a git checkout, the other as a package I installed. the first didn't need to graft a package I was building, but the second does.
<davexunit>building the package without grafts on the second yields the same hash for the store item
<davexunit>there *must* be a difference, but I'm pretty stumped.
<davexunit>the second guix machine receives substitutes from the first
<rekado>about the name: people here at the institute seem to like it once they hear me pronounce it.
<rekado>most often they try too pronounce it as "goo-iks", which sounds awkward
<rekado>but once they get that it's just "geeks" it's cool and easy.
<rekado>another thing they often get wrong is capitalisation, which is a bit odd.
<rekado>especially sysadmins assume that it must be all caps for some reason...
<rekado>in German "Nix" is a worse name, because around here it means "nothing"
<rekado>confuses the hell out of people when I speak German and seem to say that "there's also nothing" when it comes to functional package managers.
<rekado>(I also get weird looks when I point at my screen and say that this is Guile, because "Guile" is pronounced like the German word for "horny")
<rekado>ACTION stops babbling
<petter>In Norwegian we have the same issue with Nix. It's pronounced like "niks" (which means nothing)
<jlicht>rekado: I should really start reevaluating my German vocab then... I've been using that word for other situations as well XD
<jlicht>also, same in Dutch for "Nix": Niks = nothing
<petter>Looking it up I see "niks" comes from german.
<petter>I haven't spoken with anyone about Nix, so I haven't had the experience of watching the confusion.
<ng0>in german as well... nix.. nothing, nothing at all
<ng0>oh. scrolled up
<ng0>also, icecat is a good orientation on how to mod firefox. the package before it even builds starts growing in length
<ng0>there might be some legal cleanup to do in the end.