IRC channel logs

<suitsmeveryfine>I'm trying to install but get "suspicious ownership" of xfce4-panel

***drewc_ is now known as drewc

<Jookia>So I hosted a Mumble server + game of freedoom with a friend and it worked fine

<Jookia>davexunit: you may interested in that ^ (played a game of freedoom using mumble on guix as both client and server), it's not packaged yet but it's usable

***vasile_ is now known as vasile

<lfam>Thanks to whoever convinced GNOME to not ask for root's password when changing the backlight

<rekado>sneek later tell fps I'm currently working on packaging beast and rapicorn.

<sneek>Okay.

<rekado>upstream finally got rid of the bundled copy of librsvg, so packaging rapicorn got a lot easier.

<rekado>only the documentation fails to build right now.

<rekado>I think I can prepare a patch by the end of this week.

<efraim>built vifm :)

<efraim>now I have to get the hang of using it

<iyzsong>dose some thing wrong with our hydra? no job is running..

<iyzsong>ok, last evalution is from 4.10 'gnu:master', I guess it's fine. but 'gnome-updates' haven't start since 4.9, it get 'timeout' :(

<kristofer>good morning!

<ng0>gentoo work almost done, I may be able to pickup guix this week again

<ng0>that was one awful weekend of compiling and fixing

<phant0mas>davexunit: http://paste.lisp.org/display/313147

<phant0mas>thank's to rekado 's arm code I fixed it

<phant0mas>it was so damn simple

<phant0mas>actually rekado fixed it, I used his fix

<phant0mas> (add-after 'unpack 'fix-genmultilib

<phant0mas> (lambda _

<phant0mas> (substitute* "gcc/genmultilib"

<phant0mas> (("#!/bin/sh") (string-append "#!" (which "sh"))))

<phant0mas> #t))

<phant0mas>that's it

<phant0mas>now we have the avr libs

<phant0mas>now let's see if we can link to avr-libc

<rekado>woo!

<krl>trying to decide if i should try out nix or guix, what is the difference in maturity etc?

<taylan>krl: Nix is on version 1.11, and NixOS on 16.03. Guix and GuixSD are on version 0.10.0. Guix is pretty stable already, but it might miss some features you want/need.

<krl>i really do like the free software only policy

<catonano>@krl also, guix is integrated with emacs, you have a sort of emacs based dashboard. AND you deal with it in scheme rather than in the nix language. Overall it's more usable. To me that's a huge bonus. But admittedly I don't do anything serious, I don't deploy anything anywhere, I'm just getting my feet wet

<krl>oh, that's pretty rad, didn't know it had emacs bindings

<davexunit>phant0mas: !!!!!

<davexunit>ACTION tries

<davexunit>I *knew* it would be something stupid

<davexunit>phant0mas: building now

<phant0mas>:-D

<davexunit>I can post some patches later

<phant0mas>wait, we first need to make sure it works with avr-libc

<davexunit>thanks phant0mas and rekado

<davexunit>phant0mas: yeah I have some firmware to build

<phant0mas>hahaha :-)

<davexunit>it's how I first noticed this problem

<phant0mas>I was starting to have nightmares with this

<davexunit>I'm glad to be past this issue

<davexunit>my controller project has enough other issues

<phant0mas>yean I see your twitter feed :P

<davexunit>I've tried and failed many times to make an adapter for the ribbon cable

<davexunit>I think the only way to do it right is to buy some copper clad board and some etching solution and actually print a board myself.

<phant0mas>one time at high school I did the same

<phant0mas>the chemicals to remove the extra copper are dangerous

<davexunit>yes that makes me a bit hesitant to go this route

<davexunit>but using copper tape clearly isn't cutting it.

<phant0mas>well the copper board will certainly be more elegant

<davexunit>phant0mas: hmmm

<davexunit>configure: error: cannot compute suffix of object files: cannot compile

<davexunit>for avr-libc

<phant0mas>yes I am investigating this right now

<phant0mas>I have the same problem here

<davexunit>avr-gcc does indeed have all 16 libgcc.a files now, though

<phant0mas>it probably picks the wrong binutils

<rekado>davexunit for reusable etchant try this: http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/

<rekado>not harmless, but at least you won't need to dispose of it at all (just top it up)

<phant0mas>and someone at comments says it can create explosives if mixed

<phant0mas>wow

<davexunit>heh not sure if its really better

<davexunit>but maybe

<davexunit>need to do my research before trying either approach

<davexunit>phant0mas: acetone peroxide is what terrorists build explosives from

<davexunit>very unstable explosive

<phant0mas>I prefer staying away from things that include "unstable" and "explosive" in the same sentence

<phant0mas>I will stay with my breadboards

<rekado>acetone is not used in the etchant.

<davexunit>rekado: okay, I see that now as I read more of the steps

<davexunit>I'd need some really safe containers to store this stuff in.

<davexunit>got a kid in the house.

<davexunit>rekado: thanks for this, though. it seems much better than the normal method.

<davexunit>I certainly want to be conscious of the impacts of making a hazardous chemical, and greatly reducing waste in the first place is good.

<davexunit>on the subject of package management: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11469315

<davexunit>"Qpm: a package manager for Qt"

<davexunit>...

<davexunit>phant0mas: did you see the test program that failed to compile in avr-libc's config.log?

<davexunit>I can reproduce the failure with 'guix environment'

<davexunit>phant0mas: a search suggests that the build is using the wrong assembler

<phant0mas>yes

<davexunit>the host system's assembler, and not the avr one.

<phant0mas>but why?

<davexunit>that's a great question

<davexunit>avr-libc compiled fine before this multilib fix

<phant0mas>I am looking into that

<iyzsong>oops, someone have restart the 'gnome-updates' jobset (thanks!), but it still get the 'timeout' error :-(

<davexunit>phant0mas: oops, my avr-libc fails even without the genmultilib patch

<phant0mas>I know :P

<phant0mas>I fixed it

<phant0mas>I need to test though

<davexunit>how did you fix it?

<phant0mas>I used cross-gcc's phases :P

<phant0mas>avr-gcc wasn't working as it should be

<davexunit>ah

<davexunit>I guess I should use modify-keyword-arguments or whatever

<phant0mas>yes :-)

<phant0mas>I will send you the changes

<phant0mas>just wait a bit:-)

<davexunit>okay

<davexunit>I'm at work anyhow

<phant0mas>same here :P

<phant0mas>everything else is much more interesting than work..

<davexunit>;)

<davexunit>thanks for helping me out with this

<phant0mas>davexunit: you are welcome :-)

<phant0mas>brb

<davexunit>rekado: the more I read this instructable, the more I feel it is the right way to go.

<davexunit>is there any software in guix for designing circuit boards?

<davexunit>or is there any software I should package for this purpose?

<bavier>davexunit: geda-gaf is packaged

<davexunit>bavier: thanks I'll have a look

<fps>hmm, how can i add a bootstrap step to the gnu-build-system?

<sneek>Welcome back fps, you have 1 message.

<sneek>fps, rekado says: I'm currently working on packaging beast and rapicorn.

<fps>rekado: oh ok :)

<fps>sneek: later tell rekado: ok

<sneek>Got it.

<magnicida>I wonder if anyone else ever tried to install guix on macosx (I know, that's evil }:-)

<davexunit>magnicida: the issue there would be porting the bootstrap binaries

<davexunit>each new OS + processor architecture combination requires porting effort

<davexunit>Nix works on OSX so I know it's possible

<magnicida>hmmm, could it not bootstrap from a local installation of gcc, bash and friends?

<davexunit>no.

<davexunit>it cannot.

<davexunit>but even then there are other issues.

<davexunit>porting is a non-trivial operation.

<magnicida>I see, I was unaware that Guix bootstraps from a predefined set of binaries, I should go back and rtfm

<davexunit>yes, there's a carefully selected set of binaries that are used, and they are identified by their sha256 hashes

<davexunit>if you used any other bootstrap binaries, it would change the hashes of everything built with them

<davexunit>effectively creating an entire new distribution, since our build farm wouldn't be able to provide binaries for any of the package builds.

<magnicida>yeah, i was not considering reusing any binaries ofc

<magnicida>just installing guix on mac, building everything from source

<davexunit>this was under the assumption that we provided OSX binaries in the first place

<davexunit>magnicida: it could be done. the manual documents how to compile the bootstrap binaries for a new platform.

<magnicida>interesting, i'll check that out

<davexunit>if you're really interested, you just might be able to get GNU hello to compile.

<keverets>I'm curious to see the result... I'd like an alternative for the Mac users around here that are using homebrew

<magnicida>I am very interested in using Guix for managing development dependencies and environments, I use GNU/Linux 99% of the time but there is this piece of software that I need to build on a Mac and it would be great to translate the Guix workflow there

<davexunit>keverets: Nix can be used instead of Homebrew.

<magnicida>since it's only about dev environment, the Linux related parts of Guix or binaries are not so important

<davexunit>magnicida: the other important part of porting is discovering assumptions that were made about what the host OS supports. ;)

<magnicida>yep :D

<magnicida>I'm trying now ./configure --with-courage on Mac just to see what happens :/

<keverets>davexunit: good point

<davexunit>it would be nice if Guix could be used, too.

<rekado>davexunit I second the recommendation of geda-gaf and pck

<sneek>rekado, you have 1 message.

<sneek>rekado, fps says: ok

<rekado>pbc

<rekado>they can also be extended with scheme

<davexunit>oh cool :)

<davexunit>pbc? doesn't look like we have a package for that

<rekado>geda-gaf provides gschem, which you'd use for creating the schematics. Then use gschem2pcb (I think) to use with pcb.

<rekado>sorry, pcb, not pbc

<rekado>this keyboard is so broken :(

<davexunit>rekado: awesome

<davexunit>thank you!

<davexunit>and sorry about your keyboard

<davexunit>I might be able to save my crazy controller hacking project with this

<Jookia>i've been following that project on gnu social, its interesting to hear about

<davexunit>I just ordered some cheap copper clad boards from ebay

<davexunit>I have access to a laser printer at my office for printing the pcb designs

<Jookia>nice

<davexunit>if I can get it all to work this will be quite the hack. though the reaction I expect from sharing it will be "what's the point?"

<davexunit>but it's been pretty educational thus far.

<davexunit>rekado: I think that I might be able to make due with just pcb. the board itself will be very simple, but the contacts must be placed precisely in order to make the correct adapter.

<fps>rekado: yo, how far have you got with beastbse/rapicorn?

<davexunit> http://badlock.org/

<davexunit>samba security update coming tomorrow

<fps>the 16.0.0 tarball of rapicorn from github doesn't have configure, so i try to run ./autogen.sh before 'configure

<fps> https://pastee.org/kb45t

<davexunit>fps: should be (zero? (system* "sh" "autogen.sh"))

<rekado>fps: rapicorn fails to build its html docs.

<rekado>I used a git checkout, first commit that removed librsvg

<rekado>at that time there hadn't been a new release yet.

<fps>rekado: oh ok..

<fps>configure.ac:524: error: possibly undefined macro: AC_PYTHON_DEVEL

<rekado>needs autoconf-archive, which I already packaged.

<rekado>I should send this and libpng12 to the MLL.

<rekado>ML

<fps>i have done libpng12, too ;) but without inheriting libpng cause i was impatient

<rekado>it inherits nicely

<rekado>just needed to update the hash and version afair

<fps>i also contacted the author, he might do a proper release tarball with ./configure soon

<fps>[for 16.0.0]

<fps>rekado: yep, i just copied libpng over and changed the version ;)

<davexunit>ACTION just noticed that the CSS for the manual is much improved

<davexunit>very nice!

<janneke>now if only web browsers would bind space bar and other keys like info does

<davexunit>I think some people are working on an online info reader

<janneke>i think html has concepts of <link prev/next/up> .. but those are not being used by documentation generators (texi2html) and not by browsers

<taylan>whoops, manual is giving me 404 on many links

<janneke>yet

<taylan>(if not all)

<taylan>ah, seems it breaks when one directly goes to http://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/ without "index.html" at the end

<taylan>(I have some common gnu.org dir structure memorized so I typed it manually into my browser :P)

<mck>WHOIS rekado

<ng0>irc is not a whois client.

<davexunit>mck: rekado is a robot designed to eliminate proprietary bioinformatics software

<davexunit>EOF

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<rekado>fps: html docs build now, but some tests fail for rapicorn.

<rekado>soon!

<rekado>"grep: support for the -P option is not compiled into this --disable-perl-regexp binary"

<rekado>that's needed by the test suite.

<rekado>hmm

<fps>rekado: awesome :)

<kyamashita>Trying to package Red Eclipse, SDL_mixer.h isn't being found...

<kyamashita>The package definition is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/313180

<bavier>kyamashita: most likely the package doesn't use sdl_mixer's pkg-config file

<kyamashita>Any way I could verify that?

<Jookia>kyamashita: You need to use sdl-union

<Jookia>kyamashita: If it uses cmake or sdl-config, you also need to patch that (I have a diff you can use)

<kyamashita>It uses sdl-config in the Makefile.

<kyamashita>What is sdl-union?

<davexunit>kyamashita: it's a combination of SDL and all its helper libraries

<davexunit>into a file system tree that the sdl-config program is happy with

<Jookia>But you need to patch sdl-config

<davexunit>no

<Jookia>ok then

<davexunit>not necessarily

<Jookia>try it without sdl-config

<Jookia>i mean the patch

<davexunit>I've written several packages that use SDL without needing such a patch

<davexunit>so try what's there first. if it doesn't work then we'll see if the patch will helps.

<davexunit>help*

<Jookia>do they use sdl-config to find SDL?

<kyamashita>It seems like it. I'm seeing "sdl-config --libs" and "sdl-config --cflags".

<kyamashita>It looks like "sdl-config --libs" provides the SDL libraries as arguments in the list.

<davexunit>Jookia: YES!

<davexunit>that's why I wrote sdl-union in the first place

<janneke>/me sees: i686-w64-mingw32-ar: `u' modifier ignored since `D' is the default (see `U')

<janneke> CCLD guile.exe

<kyamashita>davexunit: How do I use sdl-union?

<davexunit>kyamashita: like any other pacakge

<davexunit>package*

<kyamashita>There's no sdl-union package though. What am I looking for?

<davexunit>kyamashita: it's in (gnu packages sdl)

<davexunit>it's not exported from the module

<davexunit>to use it in a module outside of (gnu packages sdl), use (@@ (gnu packages sdl) sdl-union) to refer to it

<Jookia>Why not export it?

<alezost>kyamashita: davexunit: it is exported and it is a procedure

<alezost>kyamashita: look for example at 'manaplus' package

<alezost>or 'abbaye' or 'einstein'

<kyamashita>Ok, I see.

<davexunit>alezost: ah, indeed. that has changed since I wrote it.

<alezost>davexunit: yeah, actually I changed it in commit 40e9466 :-)

<davexunit>alezost: that explains it :)

<kyamashita>It's still not seeing SDL_mixer.h

<kyamashita>Unless I'm just calling the procedure incorrectly

<davexunit>Jookia: now would be the time to share your patch. have you submitted it to us, btw?

<kyamashita>Oh, nvm.

<kyamashita>sdl-union didn't need the extra arguments I provided it, I guess.

<davexunit>so, it's working? or no?

<kyamashita>It made it past the problem file, I'm still waiting for a full build.

<davexunit>cool

<kyamashita>Now it says that it cannot produce an output path...

<kyamashita>I *did* delete the install routine... Let me see if shifting things around can change that.

<davexunit>kyamashita: that means that the build didn't actually install anything

<davexunit>kyamashita: well that would do it!

<kyamashita>The Red Eclipse wiki wants the user to run "make -C src install" to install Red Eclipse.

<kyamashita>How would that look in a package definition?

<davexunit>in a build phase, it would look like this:

<davexunit>(zero? (system* "make" "-C" "src" "install"))

<davexunit>see the 'install' procedure implementation in (guix build gnu-build-system)

<davexunit>the 'zero?' is used to test if the program completed successfully

<davexunit>build phases return #t if they succeeded, otherwise guix considers them failures.

<kyamashita>Cool! Trying that now.

<kyamashita>BTW, is there a decent Guile tutorial around for LISP newbies? Or should I start out with something like SICP?

<davexunit>kyamashita: SICP is a great book to learn about programming that just happens to use Scheme, so I wouldn't recommend for the sole purpose of picking up Scheme.

<janneke>how do i create an enviroment/set-up all the paths for a cross-built package?

<janneke>i cannot get enviroment --system to do what i want

<davexunit>not sure. I don't really do cross building.

<davexunit>only AVR stuff which is a much different story than other cross-building toolchains AFAICT

<janneke>ok

<kyamashita>Okay, so now I'm getting "no rule to make target 'install'".

<kyamashita>So make install needs to be set to run in src/

<janneke>possibly package --search-paths

<davexunit>kyamashita: (chdir "src")

<dirtyhelm>Insane question, is anyone playing around with getting Guix on the Hurd?

<kyamashita>Yes! https://fosdem.org/2016/schedule/event/guixhurd/

<kyamashita>Slides can be found there, I'm not so sure about the video.

<dirtyhelm>Thanks, thats exactly what I was looking for. Very exciting!

<kyamashita>Indeed! It would be cool to be able to easily switch between a Hurd and a Linux-libre kernel.

<davexunit>rekado: I'm finding geda to be pretty nice to use

<davexunit>kicad seems to get all the attention, from what I'm reading.

<mog>yes

<mog>geda is awesome project

<mog>but is very slow in dev time lately

<mog>ACTION picked geda 5 years ago though so im locked in

<davexunit>it's pretty nice to use, even as a n00b

<mog>geda is very well suited to makefiles and segmented work

<mog>which is why i love it

<Jookia>Is Xfce menu updating unimplemented?

<Jookia>Seems to be broken

<suitsmeveryfine>Hi! I'm preparing a package here. When I run guix lint it complains like this: tabulation on line n. Can I disregard this? I've used the official indentation rules in the Guix Guile mode and they do mix spaces and tabs.

***Basstard1 is now known as Basstard`

<suitsmeveryfine>Or should I manually type in spaces?

<janneke>phant0mas: guile.exe links, sent you an email, lots of cleanups todo

<rekado>suitsmeveryfine: what makes you say that the official indentation rules mix spaces and tabs?

<suitsmeveryfine>In Emacs I mean

<suitsmeveryfine>I was suggested to use the Scheme Guix Guile mode and use C-M-a + C-M-q to apply the correct indentation.

<suitsmeveryfine>Personally it feels wrong to mix tabs and spaces.

<davexunit>suitsmeveryfine: guix has .dir-locals disables the use of tabs for indentation

<davexunit>er, missing words

<davexunit>guix has a .dir-locals file in the root of the source tree which disables the use of tabs for indentation

<suitsmeveryfine>davexunit: does this mean that I don't need to worry about the lint error?

<davexunit>suitsmeveryfine: it means you do. :)

<suitsmeveryfine>or that I've forgot to configure something in my environmnet?

<davexunit>we don't like mixing tabs and spaces

<suitsmeveryfine>right

<davexunit>I set indent-tabs-mode to nil

<suitsmeveryfine>What should I do? :)

<suitsmeveryfine>eh, how? Sorry, I'm an Emacs newbie.

<davexunit>I have this in my emacs config file

<davexunit>(setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)

<davexunit>but also, the .dir-locals.el file also sets this

<davexunit>so you must have answered "no" to some prompt that asked to use those settings

<suitsmeveryfine>oh, I see

<suitsmeveryfine>Yes, I go get asked something every time I open the file.

<suitsmeveryfine>'The local variables list in "..." contains values that may not be safe'

<suitsmeveryfine>"Do you want to apply it": y, n !

<davexunit>I press ~

<davexunit>er

<davexunit>~

<davexunit>damn it

<davexunit>!

<davexunit>sorry

<davexunit>because I know the settings are safe

<davexunit>you can read them for yourself

<suitsmeveryfine>Ah, now the tabs are gone. Wonderful, thanks!

<davexunit>yw!

<suitsmeveryfine>The guidelines are very strict. I like that!

<davexunit>we try to use a consistent style, yes.

<davexunit>luckily in Scheme it's pretty simple

<davexunit>the style guides I follow for other languages are much longer

<ijp>the scheme style guide is essentially: whatever emacs does, mostly

<suitsmeveryfine>Not just the style guidelines but the requirements on reproducability, licenses and so on

<davexunit>ijp: yup

<davexunit>suitsmeveryfine: yeah, I guess we're pretty strict around here. ;)

<davexunit>hopefully not too strict. I like to think we maintain a high quality system this way.

<suitsmeveryfine>As I say: I like it.

<davexunit>:)

<suitsmeveryfine>I'm not sure if I'll ever do another package after this one though ;D

<davexunit>was it too much work?

<suitsmeveryfine>Yes it was a lot of work, but I'm sure it will be less work next time

<suitsmeveryfine>For this package I had to modify the sources to remove non-free code, disable parts of the gnu build system and manually add certain configure flags

<suitsmeveryfine>It took me three days

<davexunit>part of that difficulty comes from the software itself having a less-than-ideal build system.

<davexunit>and shipping nonfree components

<davexunit>did you use the #:configure-flags argument to specify the extra flags?

<suitsmeveryfine>No, I cannot do that since I need to bypass the whole configure section

<suitsmeveryfine>I use modify-phases

<davexunit>okay

<suitsmeveryfine>Actually, the package only complained about one flag that was set automatically by the gnu build system

<suitsmeveryfine>I asked here if there was a way just to remove that flag (`--enable-fast-install`), but apparently not

<suitsmeveryfine>The last time I tried to build Emacs I saw that it warned about this particular flag, but it was just a warning and not a build error in this case

<davexunit>software that uses the GNU autotools don't break when given that standard flag

<davexunit>looks like the configure script you had was hand-written or something

<suitsmeveryfine>Yes I think so

<suitsmeveryfine>pkg-config was applied on some places but on others it wasn't

<suitsmeveryfine>for example

<davexunit>yeah, that can make packaging hard.

<davexunit>when software sticks with the autotools, things are typically easier to deal with.

<suitsmeveryfine>I've also had to disable a particular feature of the software because the configure script looked for a particular dependency at a pre-defined place

<suitsmeveryfine>After I was done I had a look at the Nix project's package definition and saw that they had done the same.

<lfam>paroneayea: I'm build xscreensaver now. What DE did you test it on? GNOME?

<lfam>s/build/building

<davexunit>hmm, sch2pcb always says "No elements found, so nothing to do."

<davexunit>and I get no .pcb file :(

<suitsmeveryfine>Another question regarding my package. Does this size profile look ok? http://paste.lisp.org/display/312614#9

<lfam>suitsmeveryfine: That's not an atypical size. It's always fun to read the list and wonder, "How does *that* get used?!"

<suitsmeveryfine>Yes, but does this mean that I don't need to select all of them explicitly as dependencies (inputs)?

<lfam>The size profile is a crude representation of the full graph. For example, you definitely wouldn't need to add bash-static to the openttd package definition.

<suitsmeveryfine>OK, but what about mesa? I see that certain games add it as an input but I haven't

<suitsmeveryfine>I used the depencencies listed by upstream

<lfam>I don't know the opentdd package definition. But most of those dependencies are probably lower in the graph. That is, they are not referred to directly by opentdd.

<lfam>Does your package work for you?

<suitsmeveryfine>Yes, it works fine

<lfam>Try doing `guix graph opentdd | dot -Tsvg > graph.svg`

<lfam>And inspecting the result in some image viewer

<lfam>You can also use the `guix gc --r*` tools to inspect the web of references from "close-up"

<suitsmeveryfine>lfam: guix graph: error: opentdd: unknown package

<lfam>Well, most likely you'll need `./pre-inst-env guix graph ...`

<lfam>;)

<lfam>If that's how you're doing things

<suitsmeveryfine>I tried that :)

<suitsmeveryfine>it made no difference

<lfam>Is that how you're building your package?