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<petter>if the * is unquoted it will be replaced by all the files in your current directory
<suitsmeveryfine>Hmm, when I try to run `guix system init` I gues "Unbound variable: mapped-devices" but I can't see that there is anything wrong in the config file
<suitsmeveryfine>*I get
<petter>maybe a parentheses issue?
<suitsmeveryfine>I can't see any... Should I change "device "/dev/sdx" in bootloader perhaps?
<lfam>Yes, that 'sdx' is a placeholder
<suitsmeveryfine>sda or sda1?
<suitsmeveryfine>hmm, that must have been another error because this change alone didn't fix it
<lfam>Yes, most likely. Care to share?
<suitsmeveryfine>I would need to take a picture of the screen in that case
<suitsmeveryfine>I'll check a few more times myself first
<lfam>suitsmeveryfine: Once you successfully initialize the system, there will not be a copy of the OS configuration on the system. So, you'd better make a copy onto another machine now
<rain1>let me show my config
<lfam>Unless you want to rewrite it then :)
<rain1>ugh it was deleted!
<rain1>paste.debian ate it
<suitsmeveryfine>The camera is in a room that I can't enter right now
<rain1>suitsmeveryfine, maybe this well help
<rain1>(mapped-devices (list (mapped-device
<civodul>lfam: seems i've found a workaround
<lfam>civodul: That's good! What went wrong to cause this problem?
<civodul>it's due to the fact that grafting can cause "early builds"
<lfam>ACTION nods
<civodul>mark_weaver: i think we should do a clean full rebuilds so we can make the release with zero 'replacement's
<lfam>I guess I should have treated a super-long `make check` as a bug
<civodul>sorry to spoil the party ;-)
<lfam>In the future I'll ask to be sure
<civodul>lfam: np!
<lfam>I *did* notice it
<lfam>And now I notice the performance regressions...
<lfam>For example, reconfiguring my minimal QEMU system took forever last night
<petter>in rain1's config, should there be 2 "cons" in file-systems? It looks wrong to me, thought the first one should be "cons*"
<rain1>CONS* is better! I didn't know about it
<lfam>petter: I think that's right
<rain1>will include that if i make any documentation
<rain1>I got a kernel panic in my terminal
<rain1>when trying to build guixsd
<suitsmeveryfine>I still can't get it to work.
<suitsmeveryfine>Now I get this error instead (when not using cons* but two "cons")
<mark_weaver>civodul: sure, although after the recent series of security fixes, I wonder if we'll be able to fully build it before the next one comes :-/
<suitsmeveryfine>failed to load /mnt/etc/config,scm
<suitsmeveryfine>In procedure scm_i_lrreadparen: /mnt/etc/config.scm:52:47: end of file
<civodul>mark_weaver: yeah, that's what i though as well :-/
<mark_weaver>suitsmeveryfine: that indicates mismatched parens
<rain1>I looked into zile a little bit and hopefully I can put together a basic paredit type thing using the lisp scripting
<civodul>mark_weaver: but at least we should get rid of the deepest ones
<rain1>it will take a bit of study
<mark_weaver>suitsmeveryfine: it should look like (file-systems (cons* (file-system ...) (file-system ...) %base-file-systems))
<civodul>mark_weaver: an eudev-with-blkid too
<mark_weaver>civodul: sure, sounds reasonable
<mark_weaver>(I'm glad I'm not trying to run GuixSD on armhf)
<rain1>I had to kill the qemu
<civodul>master has "only" 1666 scheduled builds, about 10%
<rain1>what I was doing was this: ./pre-inst-env guix system disk-image --image-size=850MiB gnu/system/install.scm
<lfam>rain1: You need a larger image-size
<rain1>I will try 2GB
<lfam>It depends on your config but I recommend at least 1 GB if you add anything to the bare-bones template
<suitsmeveryfine>mark_weaver: that's exactly what I've got. Could it be a problem that the devide is "dev/mapper/home when the mount point is also /home
<lfam>rain1: You can make the image-size humongous, and QEMU will use a "balloon".
<suitsmeveryfine>these names shouldn't matter I presumed
<lfam>I set mine to 50GB, but it's only ~7 GB on disk right now
<rain1>that's interesting :D
<mark_weaver>suitsmeveryfine: if you got the error "In procedure scm_i_lrreadparen: /mnt/etc/config.scm:52:47: end of file", that indicates that you are missing a right parenthesis
<lfam>I recommend you take advantage of that feature!
<paroneayea>one thing I learned today from my talk
<paroneayea>is that there's a good way to reply to the "can I use Guix on OSX" thing
<paroneayea>this was feedback from someone afterwards as we were discussing it
<mark_weaver>paroneayea: oh, what was your reply?
<paroneayea>"You should say yes, you can run it on OSX in the same way that OSX people use Docker, which is to run it in a VM."
<paroneayea>but he wasn't laughing, he was serious
<paroneayea>and I think he's right
<paroneayea>he pointed out that we could also say that someone could write tooling on top of that to make it a bit more smooth
<paroneayea>doesn't have to be bundled with guix itself
<lfam>How is QEMU on OS X? That could be a "turnkey" solution for OS X users
<paroneayea>but it's a good point: we don't have to say "no, you can't do it", because people are *fine enough* with the escape hatch solution that is used for Docker right now
<paroneayea>so showing that it's just on the same level is better than just saying "no you can't do it"
<paroneayea>so that was interesting to me
<paroneayea>he also said "It would be better to me if it were native, but showing that it's just parallel support to something I currently use is still appealing."
<mark_weaver>makes sense
<paroneayea>so! maybe that's of use to others too.
<mark_weaver>thanks for passing that along!
<lfam>Looks like QEMU is available from homebrew. I wonder how good that packaging is.
<lfam>You could have a server that accepts OS declarations and returns QEMU images.
<suitsmeveryfine>The error was that I had misspelled "device" to "devices"
<suitsmeveryfine>i.e. "(mapped-devices (list (mapped-devices"
<rain1>yeah it's really hard to make a config file
<suitsmeveryfine>It is also very small text on the screen I'm using
<paroneayea>lfam: yeah and if we had guile on homebrew
<rain1>I have been thinking about some kind of config editor script, which ensures correct syntax
<paroneayea>we could probably have a guix-wrapper
<paroneayea>pretty easily
<rain1>either hacking zile a bit or something..
<rain1>maybe just a thing that asks a couple questions and then instantiates a template
<petter>i haven't had any problems hand typing configurations
<rain1>I have
<lfam>paroneayea: We could also document how to boot our GuixSD installer in QEMU, mount another QEMU image, and install to that image. That could be done 100% within QEMU on another system
<suitsmeveryfine>It would be nice to have a feature like that in zile; otherwise it isn't much more useful than nano
<rain1>yeah, i'll look into it more - even just keeping brackets balanced would be a huge help to me
<mark_weaver>suitsmeveryfine: hmm, I don't see how misspelling a keyword could lead to that 'scm_i_lrreadparen' error you pasted before
<lfam>suitsmeveryfine, rain1: Why not just add emacs and geiser?
<mark_weaver>but I'm glad it's fixed, anyway :)
<lfam>Or whatever editor you prefer?
<rain1>lfam, those are a big dependency to install during installation, I think it would be harder that way
<suitsmeveryfine>lfam: in the USB installer=
<rain1>even installing wget took me a very long time inside the installer
<lfam>suitsmeveryfine: The USB installer is created with `guix system disk-image gnu/system/install.scm`. So, alter install.scm accordingly
<suitsmeveryfine>maybe the entire installer could run inside emacs :)
<rain1>it's true you can make a custom installer, but I have a hope that if a very lightweight script to balance brackets was made for zile it could be included in the official distribution
<lfam>Is zile extensible?
<rain1>it seems to be at least a tiny bit scriptable
<rain1>it has a lisp interpreter and some commands
<rain1>i'm not sure yet if it will be enough
<civodul>rekado: i have "Rewrite CRAN importer." marked as unread, from Dec. 3...
<civodul>ACTION -> zZz
<civodul>good night/day! :-)
<lfam>Good night!
<lfam>rain1: I think the best approach is to initialize a minimal system and then install all the stuff you want. But of course your way would be useful too, if somebody implemented it.
<lfam>I love how civodul pushes a bunch of commits and then signs off :)
<suitsmeveryfine>lfam: It might be a good exercise to create a custom installer.
<lfam>suitsmeveryfine: It's really easy to do :)
<paroneayea>lfam: a portrait of civodul
<suitsmeveryfine>my system init is building a lot of stuff. Maybe it's the things civodul threw in
<lfam>paroneayea: Hey, indeed!
<paroneayea>I hope my talk at FOSDEM didn't give the impression that I'm not in love with wizards! :)
<suitsmeveryfine>Those are really nice slides!
<paroneayea>suitsmeveryfine: are you talking to me? (if so, thanks!)
<lfam>Indeed, I am impressed with all the presentations Guix hackers create.
<suitsmeveryfine>Each slide is an artwork in itself, but the collection!
<rain1>it's not deco anymore?
<mik_>anyone have experience installing guixsd in a uefi manner?
<lfam>rain1: It's `herd` now
<rain1>oh of course!
<paroneayea>deco has been left to the artists!
<lfam>mik_: I haven't heard of anybody doing it so far. You could try searching the archives of the guix-devel mailing list.
<paroneayea>suitsmeveryfine: the start of those slides mostly comes from the 2nd mediagoblin campaign video
<mik_>lfam: yeah, I was a bit doubtful. Found these IRC logs:
<mik_>wondered if there had been any progress
<suitsmeveryfine>Would it be possible to create an installer that runs from inside GNOME 3?
<suitsmeveryfine>by just adding gnome to the installer definition?
<lfam>You could try it :)
<suitsmeveryfine>Maybe I should :)
<suitsmeveryfine>Parabola has a MATE installer
<lfam>Is there a key command to open a terminal emulator in GNOME?
<suitsmeveryfine>I don't think so. I just type super and start typing Terminal
<lfam>Okay. And how do I log out of GNOME?
<suitsmeveryfine>from the menu in the upper-right corner
<lfam>Doesn't work in QEMU :/ Killing gnome-session works!
<lfam>Actually I didn't see a log out button. Just poweroff and restart
<suitsmeveryfine>hmm, maybe it needs to be enabled from withing the dconf program
<lfam>It's not a big deal for this system. I just want to be able to test GNOME patches and work on my package of GNOME Maps
<lfam>I don't really care if those parts are broken
<suitsmeveryfine>OK. Nice that you're adding more GNOME packages by the way
<lfam>The next version of GNOME Maps will support editing of Open Street Maps, which is probably the coolest thing to happen to mapping since OSM was founded IMO
<lfam>A non-technical user-friendly interface to OSM will be really powerful
<suitsmeveryfine>I've read that too. I like the concept of offline maps though
<lfam>I don't see the conflict
<suitsmeveryfine> isn't even served over TLS
<suitsmeveryfine>no, it's also good that people are encouraged to contribute
<lfam>That's an implementation detail. The important part is that people and communities will be able to map themselves and own the results. Maps are instruments of power and Google Maps etc subjugate us
<lfam>It's less important in places that have established boundaries, but in developing countries, being able to produce a map might be the difference between keeping your home or not
<lfam>Well, we'll see how good the integration is when the next version is released
<lfam>Sorry to get riled up :)
<rain1>I love learning about these issues
<rain1>it's great and GNOME maps is exciting
<lfam>OSM should start serving securely
<lfam>Also, *does* serve itself over TLS. But it doesn't enforce it
<suitsmeveryfine>lfam: since you're packaging GNOME packages, what is the right procedure for adding desktop files?
<suitsmeveryfine>I know how to do it in an apt-get based distro but not in this one
<lfam>suitsmeveryfine: No idea! This is my first time using GNOME except on other people's computers
<lfam>I would grep in gnu/packages for help
<lfam>I haven't even built Maps successfully yet
<rain1>There must be lots of xfce desktop files
<rain1>but they don't show up in the menus until you log out and back in
<lfam>I don't even know what a desktop file is ;)
<suitsmeveryfine>lfam: they give you the icons to start programs in GNOME
<lfam>Heh, I hate icons
<suitsmeveryfine>and it also lets you search programs from the launcher
<lfam>Guess I better learn to love them :)
<suitsmeveryfine>First I disliked GNOME 3 but now I use it every day and like it very much.
<lfam>It looks nice!
<lfam>I also like that it's a GNU project
<suitsmeveryfine>if the gnome-tweak-tool gets packages it can be made even nicer
<mik_>anyone familiar with how generations are added to grub?
<lfam>Help wanted :)
<suitsmeveryfine>lfam: yes, I'd be happy to help but I'm very much a newbie
<lfam>suitsmeveryfine: I was a newbie when I started too
<lfam>How do I pass arguments to the guix-daemon on GuixSD?
<suitsmeveryfine>lfam: don't worry; I'll learn and contribute also, but I might not start with gnome-tweak-tool since it's rather big and complicated
<lfam>suitsmeveryfine: True. I deliberately started with the simplest stuff I could think of (dvtm and abduco, really *too* simple)
<lfam>Nvm my question, I found the answer
<davexunit>paroneayea: fun slides for your talk at stripe.
<davexunit>paroneayea: how did the stripe folks feel about it?
<NiAsterisk>cancel a contract with Valve they said... deleting data and really being serious about their business they say they are... 2 days later, a friend notifies me about my account still being around, contract not canceled.
<rain1>hm my system in qemu failed to boot fully
<rain1> is my config ok do you think?
<rain1>as far as i know i did it right?
<rain1>but i didn't change grub at all
<rain1>because I thought encrypted /home could be done with no changes to grub
<rain1>when booting it never asks for a password, and then can't find hoe
<rain1>I realize my mistake..
<rain1>i mixed up sda sdb
<rain1>now I'm getting a VM stack overflow related to grafts. maybe I'll have to try again another day
<Jookia>I'm having issues setting up lsh- Even after running the lsh seed thing I get things about 'host-acls'
<Jookia>Hmm, I just always seem to get errors that the connect failed. hmm
<Jookia>It refuses a connection from my other machine too
<lfam>What does the server's logs say?
<Jookia>I don't have any
<lfam>There's no output from the lsh daemon?
<Jookia>I don't know where I'd find it, /var/log/messages and /var/log/secure don't have anything
<lfam>Maybe there's an argument you have to pass to lsh to configure logging
<Jookia>Apparently it logs to syslog by default
<lfam>Can you try logging in from localhost?
<Jookia>Yeah, that's what I"m doing
<lfam>I don't have much experience with lsh. I don't know how to debug it
<lfam>Can you make the client more verbose?
<Jookia>Yeah, but I still get the same error. -v just adds things about the default escape character. 'lsh: Connect failed. (errno = 0)'
<Jookia>I wonder if it'd be better to just see if I can set up openssh
<lfam>The client also offers "--trace" and "--debug"
<Jookia>Connecting the socket fails, ata bout the same sped as if I tried to connect to my other machine running SSH with the wrong port. I woner if it's set to use the wrong port
<lfam>If you copied one of the OS declaration templates from the manual, I think at least one of them doesn't use 22
<Jookia>I just checked my lsh-service
<Jookia>Yeah, 2222
<Jookia>I am a genius
<lfam>We're all equally smart ;)
<lfam>But some of us are more equally smart than others :p
<Jookia>Reminds me of that valve company thing: "None of us are your boss. But the CEO is more not your boss than others."
<lfam>I first heard it in Animal Farm
<Jookia>lsh is a little laggy, I wonder why that is
<lfam>Here is where the lsh maintainer asks for a co-maintainer:
<lfam>Maybe you'd like to take matters into your own hands :)
<Jookia>It's only laggy on the computer it's connecting to itself, weird
<Jookia>Oops, wrong
<Jookia>Though it could be wifi, unsure
<Jookia>Anyway it works and I have SSH! :)
<lfam>I wonder, is it typical to be able to run gnome applications outside of gnome?
<lfam>Trying to decide when to move development into the VM with gnome
<lfam>I can build my package but it won't run yet
<lfam>(gjs:26018): Gjs-WARNING **: JS ERROR: Error: Requiring GjsPrivate, version none: Typelib file for namespace 'Gtk', version '3.0' not found
<robsyme>Hi all. I'm fairly new to guix and having trouble using the Emacs interface. Running 'M-x guix-installed-packages' returns "Symbol's value as variable is void: guix-current-profile". Running 'M-x guix', and selecting package (p) and then listing installed packages (=I) run in the shell (s) works fine. Is there some setup step that I'm missing?
<robsyme>Running (setq guix-current-profile guix-user-profile) fixes the issue. I suppose I could just include this line in my emacs config.
<bavier1>anyone else get failures for 'guix environment' with latest master?
<bavier1>issue sent to bug-guix
<SusWombat_>Hey everyone
<SusWombat_>Jookia: Morning
<SusWombat_>Jookia: im running guix D
<SusWombat_>Where do you americans have your colon oO
<SusWombat_>What service/package module do i need to add to install a browser? i cant figure it out
<SusWombat_>when i add icecat to the packages in mz config scm i get unbound variable icecat
<SusWombat_>And googling it without a browser is really hard i realized
<SusWombat_>DuckDuckGo i meant!
<iyzsong>SusWombat_: it's in (gnu packages gnuzilla), you can add gnuzilla to use-package-modules
<iyzsong>or just install it as the normal user using 'guix package -i icecat' :-)
<SusWombat_>iyzsong: thanks! I dont want to use package -i i want to do it all via the config
<SusWombat_>onlz package i did -i for now is emacs so i have a irc client lol
<SusWombat_>Oh and another question there is no way to speed up downloads right?
<iyzsong>there is a mirror/cache server, run the command like 'guix ... --substitute-urls' will use it. you could try it.
<iyzsong>but it's not faster for me :-
<SusWombat_>iyzsong: ok gonna try may i ask you how much speed you get on average
<iyzsong>it depends.. 10k/s, 200k/s, 800k/s both happend to me.
<SusWombat_>iyzsong: oh ok i got today ~200KiB/s - 400KiB/s
<SusWombat_>guix system: error: invalid argument: Missing required argument after `--substitute-urls'
<SusWombat_>uhm oO
<SusWombat_>the command is guix system reconfigure /etc/config.scm --substitute-urls
<iyzsong>oh, it need a '=', use '--substitute-urls=' instead.
<SusWombat_>iyzsong: Thanks again\\
<SusWombat_>Jookia: do you live in australia?
<Jookia>SusWombat_: Indeed so
<SusWombat_>Jookia: aaah
<SusWombat_>Jookia: thought because you yesterdaz said you thought about making pictures of wombats
<SusWombat_>I have to admit i have never seen one irl
<Jookia>Me either, only kangaroos :(
<SusWombat_>only lol
<SusWombat_>kangaroos are also awesome as f**k
<lfam>iyzsong: I'm working on a package for GNOME Maps. I made it build but when I try to run it, it fails with this:
<lfam>(gjs:13089): Gjs-WARNING **: JS ERROR: Error: Requiring GjsPrivate, version none: Typelib file for namespace 'Gtk', version '3.0' not found
<lfam>Do you have any idea what that means?
<Jookia>SusWombat_: Unfortunately they're not. Do you have X running? :D
<SusWombat_>Jookia: yes
<Jookia>I need to set that up soon
<SusWombat_>Jookia: well i love xfce so i pretty much could copy the default x config
<SusWombat_>the desktop scm i mean
<iyzsong>lfam: Gjs need to find typelib files, you can wrap the executable with GI_TYPELIB_PATH, see gnome-shell.
<Jookia>I'll probably set up X after I finish up more low-level stuff
<lfam>iyzsong: Thank you!
<SusWombat_>Jookia: well this weak rig is my only usabe machine so i cant live without x
<Jookia>SusWombat_: That's cool :) Currently I'm on a weak machine myself but doing work to get it to work nice with GuixSD
<SusWombat_>well i could ...
<SusWombat_>but browing with eww or lynx can get frustrating
<SusWombat_>iyzsong: THANK YOU it downloads now with up to 3MiB/s
<iyzsong>wow :-)
<SusWombat_>but only for some files ... weird. But its a big improvement
<SusWombat_>Jookia: what do you mean with low level stuff?
<Jookia>SusWombat_: bootloaders mainly
<SusWombat_>Well now that guixsd runs the big learning begins O.O
<Jookia>Time to update my system. 'fun'
<SusWombat_>Would it be hard to setup an local mirror? so when i decide to install freshly i can use this one instead?
<Jookia>SusWombat_: You can use guix publish to become a local mirror I think
<SusWombat_>Jookia: i mean for private usage. so i dont need to redownload it everytime
<SusWombat_>Jookia: i look into publish
<Jookia>Yeah, I think that's the case
<SusWombat_>Cause i tend to wipe my install often so i think declarative configuration fits me well
<lfam>Ideally with a declarative configuration, the only thing you need to preserve is /home :)
<Jookia>lfam: Unfortuantely there's some flaws in Guix/Nix that make that not possible in a lot of cases :(
<lfam>Yeah, it's not perfect yet. What flaws break it for you?
<Jookia>All store contents is public
<SusWombat_>well i just need mz configs and dotfiles. Everything else can sit on a backup partition music and such
<lfam>Jookia: Yeah, secrets are tough
<SusWombat_>what are store content?
<Jookia>lfam: It's not good for holding credentials, so I guess you have to write a lot of hacky code, say if you want to pass a secret to a VM
<Jookia>SusWombat_: everything in /gnu/
<alezost>robsyme: hi, about guix-current-profile error: how did you install guix? is it on GuixSD?
<SusWombat_>Jookia: what do you mean with public?
<Jookia>SusWombat_: All users can read any file in /gnu/store
<SusWombat_>Jookia: so its only a concern on multiuser systems right?
<Jookia>SusWombat_: It's not that big a deal unless you have private stuff in your system configuration (you have to do this explicitly I think)
<SusWombat_>iyzsong: i love how he seems to download the largest file with the slowest speed lol
<lfam>SusWombat_: Every system is a multi user system. Every application can be an agent of a user
<SusWombat_>lfam: yeah i meant like real user with people behind it
<robsyme>alezost: Thanks for the reply. Guix was bootstrapped on Ubuntu.
<alezost>robsyme: do you have any guix related settings in your .emacs?
<robsyme>alezost: guix (GNU Guix) 0.9.1
<robsyme>alezost: only (require 'guix-init nil t) (require 'guix-profiles)
<alezost>robsyme: I suppose you added (require 'guix-profiles) because of this error, right?
<SusWombat_>is there any cloud/backup oster which is seen as okay even by the fsf?
<robsyme>alezost: Yes, sorry. That was my next message
<SusWombat_>Icecat finished
<lfam>SusWombat_: Our systems are so complex, you never know if there is another person behind it :)
<robsyme>alezost (require 'guix-profiles) seems to fix that error
<robsyme>alezost: Is that the right thing to do?
<alezost>robsyme: yes, this is a correct workaround! If that's what I think, it was fixed by <>, but this will take effect only when we update our guix-devel package, which will happen soon enough. Sorry for this problem
<alezost>So for now you can keep (require 'guix-profiles nil t) but it will be fixed soon
<SusWombat_>How can i find out which are the required package-modules?
<lfam>SusWombat_: Use `guix package --show=icecat` or '-s' to search
<SusWombat_>lfam: thanks
<robsyme>alezost: Fantastic. Thanks! I'm giving a talk on Monday about reproducibility in bioinformatics on Monday that includes Guix and containers. My thanks to the Guix devs and community. Great work.
<lfam>robsyme: That's pretty cool!
<alezost>robsyme: Thanks, good luck with the talk! By "guix-devel" package I mean this: <>. It is an older snapshot (commit c3f29bc9) than the fix I mentioned, so this fix does not take effect currently, but soon there will be a release and "guix-devel" package will be updated, so this issue will be fixed
<SusWombat__>Um .... im so confused right now
<SusWombat__>Whz does he download packages for removing one?
<Jookia>SusWombat__: What exactly?
<SusWombat__>Jookia: guile ncurses ... while i had these alreadz
<Jookia>SusWombat__: What command did you run
<SusWombat__>Jookia: guix package -r emacs
<Jookia>I'm not sure, I'm still a newbie too
<SusWombat__>Jookia: no problem but even as a "newbie" zou are verz helpfull
<Jookia>I'm glad
<Jookia>Right now I'm rebuilding a ton of packages on my thinkpad because it gives me an excuse to not do any Guix work :P
<SusWombat__>aaah thats whz so manz people hate interpreted langs xD
<SusWombat__>ok im gonna change the layout soon im sry
<Jookia>The layout?
<SusWombat__>Keyboard layout
<SusWombat__>thats why i type so often z instead of y
<Jookia>Ah I figured that was the case
<rekado>seems that "url-fetch/tarbomb" isn't quite working.
<SusWombat_>Second time my system froze O:
<SusWombat_>Does guix come with a system logger by default?
<alezost>SusWombat_: syslog writes to /var/log/messages
<NiAsterisk>SusWombat: what is a "oster"? cloud is never a solution if you don't own the clod infrastructure, in my opinion.
<SusWombat_>NiAsterisk: i wanted to say Hoster*
<NiAsterisk>i recommend , you can read up on them. nice people. been around since the first mailboxes in germany
<NiAsterisk>i still have a vm with them, I will colocate with them at some point
<NiAsterisk>it's debian only currently, but I want to join the Verein and when i feel guix is ready for their needs, I will talk about guix and guixsd to them
<NiAsterisk>why i recommend them is, because was slow in response (around the corner where I live) and in-berlin allow tor non-exit relays
<NiAsterisk>and the pricing is okay, but the essential security problems of all VMs are still there.
<SusWombat_>missing swap cant be a reason for the freezing right?
<SusWombat_>I mean i hhave 4GB ram
<NiAsterisk>possibly.. when compiling bloatware or running out of ram, yes
<NiAsterisk>bloatware, like libreoffice, webkit, etc
<SusWombat_>NiAsterisk: now that you say ... it happened while reconfigure in both situations
<SusWombat_>NiAsterisk: But there was no bloatware
<NiAsterisk>have you checked your ram?
<SusWombat_>well i also watched a video on youtube maybe it really ran out
<SusWombat_>But as this reconfigure finishes i have 10GB swap. Which should be enough
<SusWombat_>So every package gets their own dependencies installed right?
<rekado>confusingly "./pre-inst-env guix build --no-substitutes scmutils" downloads a substitute from hydra.
<rekado>updated again, seems to be fine.
<SusWombat_>Ok can it be that "guix system reconfigure config" does download every single pakcage again?
<SusWombat_>Why cant it use the existing ones?
<SusWombat_>Because this behavior makes it impossible to slowly add pice by pice to my config
<NiAsterisk>on dependencies: not exactly. but I can't answer right now.
<SusWombat_>NiAsterisk: okay
<SusWombat_>Hey pizzaiolo
<pizzaiolo>Hi there SusWombat_
<SusWombat_>now i fucked up completely lol
<SusWombat_>When i do "guix system reconfigure /etc/config.scm" now i get
<NiAsterisk>most strange. this thinkpad started crashing recently. among other possible errors, how do I fix this on a coreboot system: Feb 13 02:57:38 localhost ntpd[285]: kernel reports TIME_ERROR: 0x41: Clock Unsynchronized
<rekado>SusWombat_: no, "guix system reconfigure" does not download everything again.
<rekado>SusWombat_: you just have to make sure that root is using the same version of guix as your regular user.
<SusWombat_>rekado: atm i do everything as root (i know its bad)
<janneke>how do i access a packages' version string in a builder?
<rekado>janneke: what do you mean by "builder"?
<NiAsterisk>SusWombat_: yes. because as a daily user you won't have anything in your profile, no packages installed.
<janneke>i have (add-after ... (lambda* () .. (string-append "..." version)))
<SusWombat_>NiAsterisk: im sry i dont understand what you are reffering too
<SusWombat_>-f -o
<NiAsterisk>hm. where are you at installing guixsd?
<janneke>and i get: string-append: Wrong type (expecting string): #<procedure version ()>
<SusWombat_>NiAsterisk: atm im logged in as root. As the user seem to not exist yet. I installed it. I simply added a new filesystem, swap and a new package to install
<SusWombat_>NiAsterisk: so actually im done with the installation
<NiAsterisk>then you should stop being root when you are completely done with the installation. only reconfigure the system (sudo guix pull; sudo guix reconfigure ....... ) as root.
<NiAsterisk>unless you only want to have root.
<SusWombat_>NiAsterisk: i mispelled the username in the config thats why it wasnt there ....
<janneke>ACTION now uses (package-version <package-name>)
<NiAsterisk>ah, okay
<rekado>janneke: if you want the version of the current package just use ,version
<SusWombat_>NiAsterisk: still that doesnt explain to me why he downloads stuff like bash-static, gcc, ghostscript again O:
<rekado>i.e. unquote inside a quasiquoted expression
<rekado>for other packages you would in fact use (package-version ...)
<janneke>rekado: ah sure, thanks!
<NiAsterisk>un a related note, I wonder if guix reconfigure handles changes of usernames or if it just creates a new user and not chnage user+group of the old files.
<SusWombat_>NiAsterisk: we gonna se in a while :)
<rekado>NiAsterisk: re TIME_ERROR: maybe ask on #libreboot?
<SusWombat_>ok so i reboot into an older configuration to see if the error is there too
<NiAsterisk>why libreboot?
<NiAsterisk>i'll ask in coreboot, thanks though
<rekado>because libreboot is a derivative of coreboot and there are probably more people running linux-libre.
<rekado>just a thought.
<NiAsterisk>oh, okay
<rekado>the error SusWombat_ experienced is probably a problem in master.
<rekado>was already reported on the ML
<NiAsterisk>well libreboot is just a script wrapped around coreboot with bad formated patches send in the direction of coreboot according to at least one developer of coreboot, but i think if I can't get help in coreboot i'll ask in libreboot.
<NiAsterisk>i associate too much. sorry. thanks for your help :)
<SusWombat>Iam back
<SusWombat>I definetly going to run it inside of a vm first for a while before maybe switching
<SusWombat>It was a bad idea to just do it directly on real hardware
<rekado>SusWombat: the error you reported above is an error in the latest version of Guix.
<SusWombat>rekado, okay
<rekado>NiAsterisk: it's easy to complain about others. I think it would be better not to repeat complaints like that (unless it's constructive and to the right recipients).
<rekado>ACTION goes afk for a couple of hours
<NiAsterisk>rekado: i have not read and compared libreboot and coreboot completely, the position of coreboot was presented to me in a way that it would be more stable to use coreboot and apply patches from libreboot on top of that. that's all people told me so far. that's a position which is reasonable to me, and I will say "I see that," when I have enough knowledge of both coreboot and libreboot sources.
<NiAsterisk>the complete position sounded like it was not only this one developer, but more than one coreboot dev telling libreboot repeatedly that the patches can not be applied. as time progresses I will be in the position to have my own opinion on that, when I heard their position I only cared about a stable system.
<Jookia>Ooh I'm back
<Jookia>What's up
<Jookia>SusWombat: You can always use a version of Guix people know works :)
<SusWombat>Jookia, but its still to ealry for me to fully use it. Im not even sure if i can/want that
<Jookia>SusWombat: That's cool. Copy your config and load it up in a VM. :)
<Jookia>NiAsterisk: user linux-libre-4.1
<Jookia>SusWombat: I'm updating to a newer Guix so if I get your problem I'll try and see which version caused it
<Jookia>Oh no, the mailing list. People are talking about how it's terrible we can't roll back guix pull :(
<pizzaiolo>Jookia: ELI5 what happened to guix pull
<Jookia>pizzaiolo: guix pull uses git master and I guess someone put in untested code and it broke guix system reconfigure
<pizzaiolo>whoopsie daisy
<SusWombat>Jookia, i guess i chose the wrong time to test around ^^
<Jookia>SusWombat: It's okay, you can easily use an older version of Guix :)
<NiAsterisk>Jookia: ?
<Jookia>NiAsterisk: Is your clock resetting to 1970?
<NiAsterisk>one sec
<NiAsterisk>software clock isn't
<NiAsterisk>how would i check hardware clock?
<Jookia>Well, there's no problem then is there
<SusWombat>just guessing
<NiAsterisk>SusWombat: "a problem with coreboot"
<SusWombat>had to google it
<Jookia>I know your clock can reset to 1970 at boot with newer linux-libre systems
<SusWombat>sry didnt know that
<NiAsterisk>I use a newer kernel. okay.. then I just ignore the problem.
<Jookia>If your network updates your clock it could be fine unless you care about system logs
<NiAsterisk>well I have some more issues, but unrelated. the person who initially helped me with coreboot + patches said he would give me info about getting vga-bios in later, but right now I just boot blind.. I was told it is easy, but that's all.
<Jookia>Booting blind isn't that hard if you use libreboot/autoboot
<NiAsterisk>that's not the issue, i want to add vgabios to see a grub of guix.
<NiAsterisk>afk for some minutes.
<SusWombat>Jookia, ok this time qemu :D guix pull or not?
<suitsmeveryfine>Hi! Can anyone else build guixsd right now? I'm unable to complete `guix system init`. Dependencies cannot be built.
<Jookia>you want to use an older guix
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: guix is broken
<suitsmeveryfine>I see. How can I do that from inside the installer?
<Jookia>Just a moment, afk
<Jookia>Let me see if I can find a version of Guix y'all can use
<suitsmeveryfine>That would be nice Jookia
<Jookia>Is hydra.gnu down for anyone else?
<suitsmeveryfine>I just pinged it and it worked
<Jookia> the GUI seems borked for me
<suitsmeveryfine>I can open that URL
<Jookia>Maybe I have a bad tor circuit, let me switch to VPN
<Jookia>Yeah. One moment
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: SusWombat: Basically you want to run 'cd ~; git clone -b b134a80 git://; mkdir -p ~/.config/guix; ln -s $PWD/guix.git ~/.config/guix/latest;'
<SusWombat>suitsmeveryfine, i think you want that also?
<SusWombat>Jookia, he too right?
<Jookia>Yep :)
<SusWombat>Jookia, k thx
<Jookia>Then you can run 'guix init' or 'guix reconfig' or whatever. You'll get a lot of messages but don't worry
<Jookia>if that's in an existing install, run 'rm ~/.config/gux/latest' first
<Jookia>and do this all as root
<SusWombat>Jookia, but the live-usb for me has guix 0.9.0
<SusWombat>Shouldnt be i fine?
<Jookia>You'll be fine
<SusWombat>Jookia, ok so i dont need to "downgrade"?
<SusWombat>Jookia, i dont need a older version i mean
<Jookia>Nope, any version should be fine
<SusWombat>Just not guix pull right?
<suitsmeveryfine>Jookia: thanks, I'll try this now
<Jookia>SusWombat: No guix pull, if you guix pull just run the rm command I noted above
<suitsmeveryfine>Hmm, I was unable to download git
<Jookia>The live USB doesn't come with git? Hmm, one moment
<NiAsterisk>Jookia: no it doesn't come with git
<NiAsterisk>and git in installer without a previous system needs something set to be able to get from https protocol urls
<Jookia>Actually I found a better way
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: SusWombat: Run this 'guix pull --url='
<NiAsterisk>oh, git:// then it's okay
<Jookia>That should fix you right up :)
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, Thanks :) But the live usb comes with 0.9.0
<suitsmeveryfine>Jookia: ha! that's a very nice solution
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, i thought the problem is guix 0.9.1?
<SusWombat>im confused
<suitsmeveryfine>SusWombat: no the problem is at the very latest version of guixsd
<Jookia>SusWombat: No, Guix 0.9.1 isn't released
<NiAsterisk>no, the problem is in the recent master, not 0.9.1. also what I said still applies. "git" needs to be installed and https:// does not work out of the box with git in installer (see manual) and git:// works
<Jookia>SusWombat: Guix can download newer version of itself to update itself like I just showed- the very latest version is broken, so you want a slightly older version than the very latest
<suitsmeveryfine>Jookia: Every time I run this I get `unexpected Nix daemon error: reading from file: Connection reset by peer
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: Do you have networking set up? Are you using the guix pull thing I linked? Did you type it in properly, without the end quote?
<SusWombat>Jookia, guix pull --url=git:// right?
<Jookia>SusWombat: No git://, it's http://
<SusWombat>Jookia, neither works for me
<Jookia>SusWombat: So " guix pull --url= " doesn't work for you?
<SusWombat>Jookia, sec
<suitsmeveryfine>I was disconnected. Did I miss something?
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: (12:05:23 AM) Jookia: suitsmeveryfine: Do you have networking set up? Are you using the guix pull thing I linked? Did you type it in properly, without the end quote?
<suitsmeveryfine>Do I need to delete the results from a previous guix pull perhaps?
<Jookia>I don't think so but you can try it
<suitsmeveryfine>SusWombat: that's not the error I get
<SusWombat>suitsmeveryfine, i guess guix wants to give us variety :D
<Jookia>SusWombat: Does qemu have networking? Does 'ping' work?
<SusWombat>Jookia, im such an idiot
<SusWombat>Jookia, im sry
<suitsmeveryfine>yes I can ping it
<Jookia>SusWombat: Easier to be an idiot than to have more problems. :)
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: Okay, can you wget the file?
<SusWombat>i was sure i set it up
<suitsmeveryfine>wget is not installed :(
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: What about curl ?
<suitsmeveryfine>let's include at least wget in the next USB installer
<Jookia>wget, vi, there was something else people wanted
<SusWombat>Jookia, he downloads now
<Jookia>SusWombat: Woo!
<SusWombat>Jookia, emacs would be nice :) So you have an browser and an irc clienbt
<Jookia>It comes with zile so emacs users get to run it
<suitsmeveryfine>it should include Hedgewars
<SusWombat>Jookia, but zile doesnt have the brower nor the irc client^^
<SusWombat>Jookia, just kidding :D But an irc client would make sense
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: I would seriously argue for dungeon crawl. Do you have guile?
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: Actually, if you run 'guix environment --ad-hoc curl' or the same but with wget do you get a shell with no downloads/compiling done?
<suitsmeveryfine>Look, I can start to download from the URL that you gave me but I get a lot of "grafts" related errors
<suitsmeveryfine>Is it possible that you linked to a broken version?
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: No. Did you 'rm ~/.config/guix/latest' ?
<suitsmeveryfine>yes guile is installed
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: Oh actually, run 'guix download ' (same link)
<suitsmeveryfine>I just ran rm and tried your earlier link
<suitsmeveryfine>it seems to be working now
<Jookia>So guix pull --url=... works?
<suitsmeveryfine>yes, but first run `rm ~/.config/guix/latest`
<suitsmeveryfine>This is cool. Jookia: you should include this in the manual
<suitsmeveryfine>since master will surely be broken a few more times in the future
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: It'd be an interesting discussion to have on the mailing list to make it easier to revert issues like this. I should also probably write a script to help find a working revision
<suitsmeveryfine>it would also be cool if one could use git to build the system from source inside the USB installer
<Jookia>Why git for that? :) Also you go to , and look at the 'guixSrc' params
<NiAsterisk>suitsmeveryfine: if you connect to an shell server like you can get a temporarily irc, deoending on the conditions of the service. no need to include such a thing, in my opinion
<NiAsterisk>SusWombat: ^
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, NiAsterisk never thought about such a thing ....
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, thanks
<SusWombat>i like how qemu gives you fullscreen by default
<NiAsterisk>SusWombat: depends on what you choose, but i know that gives you irc access on sundays, otherwise you have COM
<NiAsterisk>and then there's other shell providers
<Jookia>sdf is probably going to exist after the nuclear apocalypse too
<NiAsterisk>most likely. 50/90 chance they have their own fallout shelter or a spacestation and the pics of old servers are just an illusion.
<suitsmeveryfine>Jookia: thanks again for your help. I'm building the system right now. Is it working for you too SusWombat?
<SusWombat>suitsmeveryfine, i got a lookup error
<SusWombat>i just try again
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, i get ssh acces from my "webspace hoster" So i could run it there :D Like i said i just wasnt smart enough to think of that posibility
<suitsmeveryfine>now it failed for me
<NiAsterisk>Jookia: on a related note, I will package some bbs and mud's later on. for the sake of completition of GNU software and practice.
<SusWombat>suitsmeveryfine, lookup? could not build a substitue?
<Jookia>NiAsterisk: Nice!
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, bbs?
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: Howso?
<NiAsterisk>SusWombat: part of the social web before webbrowser.
<suitsmeveryfine>guix substitute: error: host name loopup error: Name or service not known
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, ok so is it still usable?
<suitsmeveryfine>killing process 768
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: It sounds like you don't have an Internet connection
<suitsmeveryfine>I thought so to but I can ping
<SusWombat>Jookia, i got something similiar and i have internet
<NiAsterisk>like, been around since the 80s and still have a bbs around, started as an bbs only.
<SusWombat>Jookia, actually it seems i get the same error
<suitsmeveryfine>I try again now
<SusWombat>Jookia, the problematic substitude is gcc-4.9.3
<SusWombat>atleast for me
<SusWombat>suitsmeveryfine, for you too?
<suitsmeveryfine>no, for me it was libatomic
<Jookia>If you retry does it change? Perhaps there's just load on the server like I was experiencing earlier
<SusWombat>suitsmeveryfine, well lets start over and over again at some point its gonna work :D
<suitsmeveryfine>I started again and it seems to have run a bit longer now
<suitsmeveryfine>installing and reconfiguring guix sd is always an adventure
<suitsmeveryfine>you never know what will happen: sometimes it all fails and sometimes you get a working cursor
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, so are these bbs things only like nostalgia?
<suitsmeveryfine>SusWombat: are you installing guix SD for the first time?
<SusWombat>suitsmeveryfine, nah did it succesfully yesterday once.
<SusWombat>ok so for me its always subversion
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: Well, on the bright side is that it's atomic so for the most part you can't really break your distro. Unless you run 'guix pull' and it breaks.
<SusWombat>wasnt gcc before
<Jookia>SusWombat: Try adding the '--keep-going' flag
<Jookia>Also you can try using a different mirror like suggested earlier today
<suitsmeveryfine>Jookia: yes I know. When I installed on my macbook for the first time I had to run system init maybe 10 times before I got it to work properly
<SusWombat>Jookia, funny thing is when i start over and over again he seems to download different packages
<SusWombat>Jookia, so at some point there should be only subversion left over right ^^
<Jookia>SusWombat: Perhaps, you can always try '--substitute-urls=' and '--keep-going'
<Jookia>That's amazing that Pidgin things hydra.gnunet is the domain, not
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: Steady sailing since? :P
<suitsmeveryfine>Jookia: yes, as soon as you have a working revision of guixSD you'll be OK
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, are there any good ressources you could recommend me for guile and guix packaging=?
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: (Unless you run 'guix pull'
<Jookia>I think guix pull should be modified to only pull the latest version that has working builds, but that'd be a bit complex to implement
<suitsmeveryfine>I once made the mistake of manually running the garbage collector which messed up the system
<suitsmeveryfine>this was possible because I've got encrypted root on that other computer
<suitsmeveryfine>the good thing with having to reinstall constantly is that you learn to do it quicker
<SusWombat>btw wasnt the server situation supposed to get better due to the donations? or was it actually worse before?
<Jookia>SusWombat: I dunno what the status is
<suitsmeveryfine>SusWombat: it was really bad before
<suitsmeveryfine>compared to then it downloads really fast for me now
<SusWombat>suitsmeveryfine, O: that sounds horrible
<suitsmeveryfine>before you had really slow downloads and repeated disconnections
<suitsmeveryfine>but as jookia said, it's not that bad if the installation failes
<suitsmeveryfine>not compared to stateful distros
<Jookia>Does --keep-going let it download a lot more than stop dying?
<suitsmeveryfine>Jookia: I don't know because it has kept going by itself for a long time now
<Jookia>Isn't it ironic that all this breakage lately has come from implementing grafts? ;)
<SusWombat>Jookia, not sure had to restart 3 times since i use it
<suitsmeveryfine>I'm installing the full GNOME suite
<SusWombat>Jookia, im sry ... what are grafts?
<NiAsterisk>SusWombat: the style.txt (somewhere in the manual), then idk.. there are guides and manuals and books out there, I just started and learn while I am doing.
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, okay thanks. Other thing that came to mind .. would i actually need to patch software when packaging it? Cause of the way guix works?
<Jookia>SusWombat: Ways to add psuedo-state. Ie, update a package without rebuilding the entire thing
<Jookia>SusWombat: Lots of patching is done automatically, and it's even better if the project uses something like Autotools or CMake
<SusWombat>Jookia, i see its going to be more complicated then i thought
<SusWombat>Jookia, wait ... what question where this answers for?
<NiAsterisk>SusWombat: more or less that's what happens in every distro. guix has some tools like every other distro, sometimes you have to patch / talk to upstream, etc
<NiAsterisk>just, debugging...
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, what programming languages do you know?
<NiAsterisk>not enough
<Jookia>SusWombat: First is for what is grafts, second is what's for packaging
<SusWombat>Jookia, okay :)
<NiAsterisk>for the projects I participate in.. I started learning C/C++, other than that basic python, bash, etc.. I'm just able to grasp what code does mostly and where mistakes could be. it's not enough to contribute code to some projects, so I come up with ideas and designconcepts :)
<NiAsterisk>but I'm quick with underestimating my abilities.
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, only langauge im somewhat comfortable in is js. Besides that i know the basics of c and python. Also im too absolutely unable to rate my "skills"
<SusWombat>depending how you define basics you may add a few languages
<Jookia>I'd learn JS but I'm not cool enough
<NiAsterisk>a 'lil bit of everything and no focus on one special thing. with gnunet and secushare I'm sad that I just dropped C and C++ 10 years ago when I started learning it for the first time
<SusWombat>Jookia, i guess most people in here hate js am i right?
<Jookia>SusWombat: I dunno. A lot of us here don't talk about langauges much, but there is strong frustration at 'cool' package managers like PHP's and npm
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, oh 10 years O: I started learning like 3-4 years ago and only do it "seriously" since a few months. But just as a hobby
<SusWombat>Jookia, didnt even know php had one
<NiAsterisk>doesn't seem that long for me... idk.. i started with some slackware deriv when I was 13 i think, more than 10 years ago.
<Jookia>SusWombat: Me either, but there's 'composer'. npm, composer, etc. They do a neat thing where they download all the dependencies before you build a project, which means Guix can't replace them
<SusWombat>Jookia, yeah npm is nice. Why should guix even replace them o.O??? Seems weird to me
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, oh i thought you where way older ^^
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, but i also expect everyone like 70 years old when they say something like 10-20 years ago xD
<Jookia>SusWombat: Guix isn't just a package manager for programs, it's a package manager for dependencies too. When we have programs in multiple languages, you have to package the dependencies too
<Jookia>SusWombat: So Guix packages things like Haskell packages, Python packages, some Ruby packages
<NiAsterisk>i think at the end of the 20s/early 30s you can say "10 years ago"
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, yeah i slowly get there (wombat is 23 years old)
<SusWombat>Jookia, hmmm i dont know if i think thats a good thing
<NiAsterisk>why? you have to package dependencies, always
<Jookia>SusWombat: It's probably the only possible way to reliably do packaging
<Jookia>SusWombat: For instance, how would I specify that my Python web application requires some Javascript packages?
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, yeah but i mean the guix to replace npm/whatever thing
<SusWombat>Jookia, damn now you got me ... give me a sec
<NiAsterisk>and then you try to package rust, discover oops it needs cargo and cargo is a package manager rust came up with because most package managers suck and every language comes up with their own pm.
<NiAsterisk>*a rus tpackage
<Jookia>Guix is the only package manager that can specify program dependencies too, such as relying on a specific version of gnunet
<SusWombat>yeah but language dependent pm are a needed thing or not? How else you would want to manage that? i personally dont want to be dependent that every distro is reliably enough to do it
<NiAsterisk>SusWombat: you should watch one of the talks from fosdem '16 , there your problem was described :)
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, which problem exactly?
<SusWombat>suitsmeveryfine, hows your install going?
<NiAsterisk>well.. what you wonder is, why is there Guix when we have many other package managers like npm. but npm inside relies on apt-get or whatever. and npm can have issues you can't fix.
<Jookia>SusWombat: Guix isn't just a distro, it can run on other distros too. So for instance you could set up a development environment by specifying the dependencies of a program and you'd get all your programs ready
<NiAsterisk>and all those package managers came to life because some other package manager was bad for them
<SusWombat>yeah but realisticly guix cant solve this problem "gloablly" or not?
<SusWombat>I guess guix is gpl right?
<Jookia>Guix is GPLv3+
<NiAsterisk>it's not a matter of can't or can
<SusWombat>Now that we talk about it .... Do lang specific pm even work under guixsd?
<NiAsterisk>if it works, people will realize and switch.. I'm involved in some projects which just seem impossible. yet I think rationally they are right. free software is still seen by some as "this can't work, this stallmanism" etc.. still 30 years later look where we are :)
<Jookia>SusWombat: Basically people use containers right now for their development environments. Because they can't specify their dependencies outside their language, they instead make a disk image containing them all and get everyone to use them.
<Jookia>SusWombat: I think language-specific PMs would work under GuixSD, not sure why they wouldn't
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, dont get me wrong! I like the idea of free Software (but i prefer mit over gpl). Im not really involved cause i feel like loosing flexibility. And yeah i dont like the whole rms person/cult thing.
<SusWombat>So pls dont think i dislike Free Software or think its a bad thing
<NiAsterisk>i just mentioned it from a perspective of people I encounter giving critiques on free software.
<NiAsterisk>as an example.
<Jookia>It's true that you lose power when you do free software, though I think a lot of us can live with losing power if it means users gain freedom
<SusWombat>And also while for me it makes it more intresting then nixOS i guess alot of poeple have/gonna have a problem with lisp?
<NiAsterisk>for me personally, it took a while to get the importance of free software over open source.. i might've gotten the basic idea early on, but I think only 5 or 6 years ago I got it, through reading and talking about it before with people until it made *click*
<Jookia>But in the end, the reason you're having trouble with whether or not to use GuixSD is often because proprietary software has power over what distro, what CPU, what Internet connection you use
<Jookia>SusWombat: I haven't a problem with Lisp, in fact it's really elegant how Guix uses it
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, well i slowly get from hating too yeah its a nice thing. DOnt know if i ever gonna be so into like you guys
<SusWombat>too = to
<NiAsterisk>for me, it's political. I try to get involved in projects which interact which each other and in their common ground serve something more than just software. even if you think at some point, hey guix sucks and you spend so much time with it, you learned things. and that's the important part of using and hacking on something for me :)
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, for me its actually the opposite but i feel like it slowly changes(not sure if i like it) I always wanted to not have politics in software
<SusWombat>thats why i love MIT :D
<SusWombat>or expat or x11 or whatever
<SusWombat>Jookia, ok after ~15 times restarting the init he finally build subversion :D But errors one another package. So maybe im done after the next 15times
<Jookia>SusWombat: Build or download? And did you try the other mirror
<Jookia>Also, the MIT license is pretty scary if you care about patents. Apache License is good too
<SusWombat>Jookia, download* yes i did
<SusWombat>Jookia, patents are again political D:
<Jookia>As is copyright and software licensing
<SusWombat>I love the simplicity of mit
<SusWombat>But like i said i tend to dislike gpl less over time
<Jookia>I prefer the zlib/libpng license over the expat license- I'm kinda surprised that people picked the 'MIT' license, but I'm pretty sure it's due to the whole github politics
<NiAsterisk>i think we should keep it ontopic, license politics can derail in nasty directions :)
<Jookia>This is true, though I have the bad habit of reading license politics and seeing everyone always say misinformation
<SusWombat>Yeah lets talk about what wm im going to run inside the vm once i get it running :D
<Jookia>Anyways yes, GNU Guix is under the GPLv3 or later, your choice. I imagine if/when GPLv4 comes out new code will be added under that license
<Jookia>If you contribute to Guix, you should read the GPLv3 and understand what it means. You don't have to assign copyright so it's your choice whether to enforce the license of your specific code
<SusWombat>well before im able to contribute to guix :D We have atleast gplv6
<SusWombat>Jookia, so i can contribute without assigning the copyright o.O
<SusWombat>That sounds weird to me
<Jookia>Why? :o
<SusWombat>but im reading that up
<SusWombat>Jookia, ah wait it would be still under a gpl compatible license right? so there isnt the "danger" of not being able to use it anymore right?
<Jookia>SusWombat: What do you mean? It's under the GPLv3+
<SusWombat>Jookia, maybe i simply didnt understand "You don't have to assign copyright so it's your choice whether to enforce the license of your specific code"
<Jookia>In a lot of projects when you submit code you assign your copyright to the entity that owns it and you can't enforce the license it's under
<SusWombat>yeah that makes sense
<SusWombat>That was/is the only way in my head
<Jookia>Linux isn't under copyright assignment which is good
<SusWombat>wait is there even "copyright" in free software?
<SusWombat>i need to read more about that
<Jookia>Yes? That's how licenses work, by giving permissions to use things
<Jookia>It's almost impossible to get rid of copyright these days
<SusWombat>would "--fallback" only be for failes packages? or for all of them since the fail?
<Jookia>fallback will build packages from source if it can't download a binary
<SusWombat>Jookia, yeah but only the ones he fails to donwload? or is he going "oh i failed the last package lets just build the next without trying to get the binary"
<Jookia>Only the ones that it fails to download I think
<SusWombat>Well even if not ... guix you won ^^ here you have your --fallback
<Jookia>Haha, which package?
<SusWombat>Jookia, differs.
<civodul>Hey Guix!
<SusWombat>Hey civodul
<Jookia>civodul: Hey guess who's graft patches broke the build
<civodul>ahem, dunno?
***Acou_Bass is now known as Acou_Bass_AWAY
<civodul>i found a bug but i think it was already there
<civodul>stack overflow upon "guix build icecat"
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, and regarding your statement from before, yeah thats why i try it. Even if it doesnt fit me in the end i still learned stuff. And i know then why it doesnt fit me
***Acou_Bass_AWAY is now known as Acou_Bass
<Jookia>People who ran 'guix pull' got to get stack overflows so maybe now it's also time to reexamine why guix pull doesn't consult hydra to find out if there's substitutes building in advance
<civodul>ok i'll look into it
<Jookia>Not a big priority though :)
***Acou_Bass is now known as Acou_Bass_AWAY
***Acou_Bass_AWAY is now known as Acou_Bass
<SusWombat>Oh cool
<suitsmeveryfine>Jookia: Hi. My installation failed like yesterday
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: Failed?
<suitsmeveryfine>"dependencies couldn't be built"
<suitsmeveryfine>after a lot of grafting
<suitsmeveryfine>and "suspicious ownership or permission on `/gnu/store/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx-talloc-2.1.5'; rejecting this build output
<SusWombat>Is there a way to find out how big the whole "repo" is?
<Jookia>SusWombat: I suppose you could use du
<SusWombat>Jookia, nah i mean the guix one so all the binarys
<NiAsterisk>SusWombat: the source?
<NiAsterisk>or the binaries you fetch?
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, The binarys on the server
<NiAsterisk>just listening to a radiofeature on SaaSs.. the arguments people have to get comfy with that situation :/
<NiAsterisk>and now arguments against free software. ouch
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, SaaSs?
<NiAsterisk>software as a service substitute
<Jookia>ie google docs
<NiAsterisk>no, for companies, products
<NiAsterisk>the shift towards saass instead of "owning" the software, subscriptions, etc
<Jookia>google docs is saass
<SusWombat>it seems like the internet in th vm is gone
<SusWombat>When i reboot the vm. Does guix continue where it "stoped" ?
<civodul>suitsmeveryfine: what command did you type to get the "suspicious ownership" error?
<civodul>i thought i had fixed it
<suitsmeveryfine>civodul: I used an earlier revision of guix sd
<civodul>i fixed it in 82f5186 last week
<Jookia>SusWombat: If it's a live USB, unsure. Try it :)
<suitsmeveryfine>civodul: I ran `guix pull --url=`
<SusWombat>fun ... why my vm doesnt get internet anymore O:
<suitsmeveryfine>it worked when removing gnome from the config though
<Jookia>civodul: I suggested to SusWombat and suitsmeveryfine earlier to use that tarball to be able to use Guix since it's the newest one with a good amount of binary substitutes on hydra
<dmarinoj>I'm writing the quicklisp importer. What is the best way to grab a webpage with Guile?
<SusWombat>How can try if i have internet besides ping?
<SusWombat>and no wget or curl
<dmarinoj>SusWombat: ifconfig
<SusWombat>dmarinoj, aaah thank you !
<dmarinoj>SusWombat: sure
<SusWombat>ok so i had internet the whole time ... i just cant ping from inside of qemu cause of stuff
<SusWombat>i think i really choose the wrong time to try guix ^^
<petter>yeah, with the default networking backend in QEMU only TCP and UDP works.
<petter>ping is ICMP
<SusWombat>petter, good to know that thanks.
<Jookia>SusWombat: there's never a wrong time to try guix :)
<SusWombat>ok .... so lets try again
<SusWombat>Why does the download speed differ so much? Some binarys are downloaded with up to 400KiB/s other with only up to 60KiB/s?
<jmd>SusWombat: Why do currency exchange rates change so much?
<Jookia>SusWombat: Internet goblins
<SusWombat>jmd, they dont differ that much in like 1-2 minutes :)
<SusWombat>Jookia, no errors so far :) Just slow. Maybe to slow to fail ^^
<Jookia>you know what they say, slow and steady is one step forward
<jlicht>Jookia: not quite sure if that also applied to download speeds ;-)
<jlicht>at least when they started saying that
<SusWombat>OMG Installation finished. No error reported.
<SusWombat>Jookia, ok so i better avoid guix pull for a while right?
<Jookia>SusWombat: Yep :) Eventually you'll want to run it again when the binary substitutes are removed, but hopefully it'll be fixed by then. I should write some instructions on how to figure out and judge for yourself which guix pulls are safe
<SusWombat>Jookia, if you find the time that would be awesome :)
<Jookia>SusWombat: It's not that hard actually, see the long url "guix-b134a80.tar.gz" ?
<SusWombat>Jookia, yeah
<Jookia>SusWombat: If you go to you can see that 'b134a80' is the latest available one with successful binary builds, so when that changes just replace it with the new number and re-pull with the changed URL
<SusWombat>Jookia, so i actually should never do just "guix pull" ?
<Jookia>SusWombat: That's a difficult question to answer since guix pull is a little lacking in features
<Jookia>SusWombat: In it's current state you should probably only use guix pull with a URL that you know has binary substitutes and isn't broken
<SusWombat>Jookia, okay
<Jookia>SusWombat: If you don't pull or update, you'd have to compile things since over time the old builds get removed to save disk space
<SusWombat>Jookia, this looks so modern compared to the guix site O:
<Jookia>That's probably because it's from Nix :P
<SusWombat>Well the guiy site is actually nice too
<SusWombat>Just the package list .... ^^
<Jookia>There's work to be done
<Jookia>SusWombat: If you want to do some hacking to make it more purdy I'm sure people would love it
<SusWombat>Jookia, i would if i would skilled enough O:
<jmd>Jookia: "purdy" ?
<Jookia>jmd: Pretty. Someone said it once
<Jookia>SusWombat: Who needs skill when you have patience and problem solving ... skill ...
<jlicht>Jookia: are you guys talking about the package list?
<SusWombat>I need a wm now :/
<paroneayea>civodul: I'm also getting the "suspicious ownership" error
<paroneayea>suspicious ownership or permission on `/gnu/store/y1r1w4syyf9505pc4r9aj1phdgwdj064-python-pygobject-3.18.0'; rejecting this build output
<paroneayea>am running 44abcb2 from yesterday
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, do you you use ratpoison out of habit or cause you really like it?
<jlicht>where would one find the sources for the guix website?
<NiAsterisk>SusWombat: I don't like it. I just have not had the time to sit down to package awesome-wm
<NiAsterisk>i got used to the basic keys of rp now, that's all
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, aaaah. Yeah awesome is kinda cool. But lua :/
<NiAsterisk>so i just read an email.. and somebody had a 40 lines long ascii art in the signature
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, thats cool
<NiAsterisk>in a sarcastic way, yes.
<Jookia>jlicht: I think they're somewhere on the sources page, unsure
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, well i never used emails to comunicate :/ (want to get into mailinglists soon). But i imagine its a nice thing really
<SusWombat>well i guess after a while it would be annoying as you know every ascii art by then
<paroneayea>SusWombat: when I'm on debian I use StumpWM
<paroneayea>which is a tiling WM, lisp based
<paroneayea>would be nice to have it packaged for the lisp-iverse
<SusWombat>paroneayea, i dont know lisp yet
<paroneayea>SusWombat: ah, well you're in for a joyous journey then :)
<paroneayea>assuming you use emacs at least. And if you don't, use emacs!
<SusWombat>paroneayea, yeah i did a bit in the past. I plan to use it as my main editor from now on
<SusWombat>paroneayea, guile-wm is packaged maybe you like that one?
<jlicht>found it, it can be found in the guix-artwork repo
<suitsmeveryfine>It appears that my hidpi T60 screen is incompatible with GuixSD even though it works in Parabola and Trisquel
<SusWombat>i guess i go with i3
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: Libreboot?
<suitsmeveryfine>Jookia: yes
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: add this to your config.scm
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: (initrd (lambda (file-systems . rest) (apply base-initrd file-systems #:extra-modules '("i915") rest)))
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: long spaces = new line
<paroneayea>SusWombat: I haven't really tried it
<suitsmeveryfine>ah, interesting! Yes, I will try this
<Jookia>SusWombat: I use i3, it's pretty good
<NiAsterisk>SusWombat: just avoid extra enormous long signatures
<SusWombat>Jookia, im not the biggest fan. But well it works
<NiAsterisk>4 lines is good if you need to.
<SusWombat>NiAsterisk, Im awesone \\n Send me Money \\n Wombats are Cool \\n ^_^
<Jookia>I just write some small word or sentence then 'Jookia.' at the end of my emails. No templates at all
<suitsmeveryfine>I'm trying another install with encrypted /home. Should I mount that file system in the installer?
<rain1>I was trying that yesterday too
<rain1>I was hoping to write up some instructions but I ran into trouble myself
<suitsmeveryfine>Oh I see
<suitsmeveryfine>So you haven't got it to work with encrypted /home?
<rain1>I think it might be because I built my own guixsd installer
<rain1>yeah i'm going to run through the process again
<rain1>see if it works this time
<suitsmeveryfine>ok, well I'm trying again myself but I have other issues as well -- like a non-working LCD
<rain1>that's the config i was trying with
<rain1>actually let me repaste, I changed it a bit
<suitsmeveryfine>Hmm. Did you open the encrypted volumes inside the installer?
<rain1>yeah i mount / then then luksOpen the encrypted partition, then mount it on /home
<suitsmeveryfine>you don't mount it on /mnt/home ?
<rain1>yes sorry! I mean /mnt/ and then /mnt/home
<rain1>that's really important
<rain1> some really rough notes - going ot improve on them
<suitsmeveryfine>the dir does not exist
<suitsmeveryfine>does this mean that I must create the /mnt/home dir first?
<rain1>yeah just mkdir it before mounting
<rain1>this trick is helpful too
<rain1>guix dowload ; cp /gnu/store/*-oZp /mnt/etc/config.scm
<rain1>lets you save time writing the config inside the installer
<rain1>just get it off a paste site
<rain1>I'll try now with regular guixsd instead of my own build, to reduce the number of places things could have gone wrong
<suitsmeveryfine>thank rain1. I will try this and report back my results
<rain1>I'll see if I get any luck too, if I do will make some nicer/more readable notes on how
<petter>rain1: in this paste you have home on /dev/sdb and root and boot at /dev/sda. I seem to recall you saying this was an error, and that they're all on /dev/sda
<rain1>yeah that can be bad :)
<petter>also bootloader is set to /dev/sdb
<rain1>I gotta be more careful
<petter>yeah, these things can make for some mysteries later ;)
<suitsmeveryfine>rain1: how is it going?
<rain1>i was having a silly problem with networking
<rain1>thought it wasn't working because ping wasn't - but that's just qemu
<rain1>running the install now, takes about an hour
<suitsmeveryfine>ok. I'm pulling right now and will install in a minute
<suitsmeveryfine>Jookia: why do you think adding the i915 to initrd will make my display work?
<Jookia>suitsmeveryfine: Because I have the same issue and Guix doesn't load up the Intel graphics drivers early enough
<Jookia>most distros do this by default
<suitsmeveryfine>Jookia: I see, but maybe you've got encrypted /boot
<suitsmeveryfine>or is that not the issue?
<Jookia>This is to do with screens, right?
<suitsmeveryfine>sure, but with encrypted disk you sometimes need to add modules to initrd to get certain functionalities working before entering the LUKS password
<suitsmeveryfine>modules that otherwise load automatically later on in the boot process
<Jookia>Yeah, this is kinda the same issue
<suitsmeveryfine>OK, I'll hope it will work
<rain1>it finished
<SusWombat>Anyone here is good in license stuff?
<rain1>but it never asks me for a password and can't boot
<rain1>I thought that with encrypted /home only you didn't need to change anything in grub
<Jookia>SusWombat: Sure
<SusWombat>Jookia, i try to figure out if im allowed to license a config file which is partly generated by software
<Jookia>maybe you should PM me or put this in #fsf or something
<Jookia>seems off topic :P
<rain1>oh.. if i removed the usb key my disk is no longer sdb
<rain1>it becomes sda
<rain1>anyway, encrypted /home working!
<rain1>it doesn't automatically mount /home
<rain1>not sure how I'd set that up
<Jookia>needed-for-boot? unsure
<suitsmeveryfine>rain1: so what happens -- do you arrive at the GuixSD login screen?
<suitsmeveryfine>I mean the graphical one
<rain1>i was doing barebones install for speed
<rain1>this is a bit frustrating, I do -usb guixsd.usb -boot d to boot off the usb
<rain1>if i remove it my disks are all different things (sdb move to sda)
<suitsmeveryfine>ok, I'm doing a desktop install but with just ratpoison as DE
<rain1>I will need to figure out a way to do this so I can totally removed the usb
<rain1>wish i had a guix .iso
<Jookia>rain1: Did yo try by-label or by-path
<rain1>i used device names
<wingo>i wish it were easier to know what services are running
<wingo>like what service files, what command line args, etc. with shepherd.
<wingo>what environment variables.
<wingo>fml if you do "sudo herd stop elogind" you can no longer sudo any more
<wingo>b/c pam_elogind
<wingo>lol, there's literally no way to reboot my system cleanly now :)
<rekado>I noticed on two i686 machines that guix wants to build perl from source.
<rekado>neither of these machines is powerful enough to justify this.
<rekado>this only happens when grafts are activated
<Jookia>I think that may be a bug with recent grafting code, unsure
<SusWombat>Jookia, you dont really like that grafting stuff right ^^?
<Jookia>SusWombat: Grafting's pretty cool but at the same time it's some new code which needs some more work
<suitsmeveryfine>I don't mind that things break in GuixSD. I'm just happy that it's being so actively developed.
<wingo>i think i will change pam_elogind to not require a successful call out to the daemon
<wingo>or maybe that's not a good idea
<civodul>rekado: i think the new Perl replacement has not been built (yet) by Hydra, hence the behavior you observe
<civodul>wingo: does restarting elogind make pam_elogind happy?
<efraim>i'm test building libreoffice- now, I don't see sources for 5.1.1.{0,1,2}, or any other x.y.z.{not-latest}. Is there a possibility of losing our source from them?
<rekado>civodul: but it doesn't try to build perl locally when I disable grafts.
<rekado>NiAsterisk: re libreboot: no need to be defensive. I just think it would be a better world if we did not give negative hearsay a platform before having an informed opinion.
<rekado>civodul: also, hydra seems to have a built replacement.
<rekado>ACTION goes to bed early ...
<civodul>rekado: yes, because when you disable grafts, it doesn't need to build the replacement perl
<civodul>anyway good night :-)
<civodul>paroneayea: "./pre-inst-env guix build python-pygobject" (grafts enabled) works for me; how to reproduce?
<paroneayea>civodul: will look, one sec
<NiAsterisk>rekado: hm. that's right. I don't aim to be defensive, it's part of my schema i can't easily turn off. and I agree, although having a starting point and comparing wether opinion/thing applies or not works too. I just try to not say this is my opinion when it's just something others told me and I need to validate if it's also my opinion. if I would be silent about every opinion I need to validate and come to an
<NiAsterisk>conclusion, i would regard my opinion as not complete and challengable. the whole purpose and intention of this sentence is too offtopic for guix i think. just to make clear what i (currently) see as the best way to reply.
<paroneayea>civodul: arg, for various reasons thiss will have to reboot into guixsd to do this
<paroneayea>I broke my guix on debian setup (libgcrypt mismatch), and I rebooted into debian because of this!
<paroneayea>civodul: I'll investigate further later tonight I hope.
<paroneayea>oh wait, there may be a way to launch things still :)
<paroneayea>ACTION tries
<paroneayea>hoo, nope :)
<paroneayea>ok will reboot and debug in a bit
<NiAsterisk>so many updates after pull.
<lfam>I don't fully understand the differences between references, referrers, and requisites. Can anyone help me understand this in the context of `guix gc`?