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<davexunit>ACTION continues to debug love2d
<davexunit>reeaaally want this to work
<davexunit>yay love2d works properly now!
<tennix>guix can't download sourceforge source files
<tennix>when i run `guix download`, it only downloads a html file
<gustawho>Hey there! I use Parabola GNU/Linux and maintain a few Arch packages (physics related, mostly) on my own server. I just started "playing" with Guix, but I'd love to contribute to it in the same way I've doing with Arch. Can you give me a point of start, please?
<tennix>ok,it seems my network problem, it doesn't follow redirect. now after set a proxy it can download the .tgz file
<tennix>gustawho: I'm also new to guix, the manual is always a good start, and here is how to define a package:
<gustawho>Thanks for the link!
<tennix>Protocol not supported when running `guix download`
<marusich>tennix, is it possible your error is related to this bug?
<marusich>I'd be curious to know if you can run "make check"
<tennix>i couldn't download libxml2 even with wget/curl, I even couldn't open that link by web browser.
<tennix>So i just downloaded that file through a vps
<tennix>and then scp to my local machine
<tennix>and guix download file:///home/tennix/guix/libxml2-2.9.2.tar.gz
<tennix>So i don't know if it is related to my network
<tennix>here i just got another fatal error: *** Error in `/gnu/store/5i87jzm90nw8j692y7z1j2qfx16h6ni3-guile-2.0.11/bin/guile': double free or corruption (out): 0x00000000006a4c70 ***
<tennix>swig failed to build
<efraim>are you running on btrfs?
<efraim>its been a while, but when I was first building from source I heard that there were occasionally issues with btrfs compression and the store
<tennix>no, i'm running guix on archlinux with ext4 filesystem
<amirouche>I come back another day when my internet connection is better
<tennix>my internet connection would not be better unless i go abroad
<rekado_>Is someone here using GNUnet from Guix? Do we need some dmd service for GNUnet?
<ennoausberlin>Hello everyone. Is there a metapackage like build-essential on debian for development?
<efraim>i install and uninstall it occasionally, compared to debian's gnunet it seems to be missing gnunet-gtk or something similar
<efraim>ennoausberlin: nothing like build-essential in guix afaik
<rekado_>ennoausberlin: is gcc-toolchain not enough?
<efraim>i think build-essential is more of a per-package meta package that pulled in build dependencies for the specified package
<efraim>but we don't separate out the headers from our packages for foo and foo-devel
<ennoausberlin>rekado_: efraim: ok. thank you. gcc-toolchain looks right.
<rekado_>ennoausberlin: you should be able to use "guix environment" for these purposes.
<rekado_>it gives you an ephemeral environment where all build dependencies and build tools are available.
<ennoausberlin>rekado_: I will have a look.
<ennoausberlin>rekado_: Its in the manual, but haven\\
<ennoausberlin>t tried it so far
<QuiGonVim>On a freshly installed guixsd, I installed guile-emacs and guile-for-guile-emacs. Emacs won't run with the message: no such file or directory , emacs-lisp/byte-run. Any idea on what might I be missing?
<iyzsong>well, I don't make any progress for GNOME this weekend :-
<efraim>so it turns out copying commands from ludo's latest talk without thinking it through will replace my PATH with only /home/efraim/.guix-profile/bin
<efraim>byebye /usr/bin, etc
<iyzsong>rekado_: I think I have got gnunet running using single user. I really want to having a dmd service for it :-)
<efraim>i didn't realize that gnunet-gtk was a separate package
<iyzsong>I got file sharing between VM and host through GNUnet, but I don't know how to use gnunet-gtk yet :-
<efraim>i'm declaring gnunet as a propagated input to gnunet-gtk, doesn't make much sense to have gnunet-gtk without gnunet
<pyfgcrl>hey, does guixsd have KDE in it?
<pyfgcrl>kde plasma 5
<mthl>pyfgcrl: not yet
<mthl>pyfgcrl: It was waiting for you to package it! ;)
<ennoausberlin>Hello again. I want to use guile-wm instead of xfce. Is this possible?
<rekado_>efraim: evaling "guix package --search-paths=prefix" should not replace your PATH.
<rekado_>only if you drop "=prefix" from the command you would end up replacing rather than amending your PATH definition.
<rekado_>ennoausberlin: I'm not using guile-wm, but I've heard it's not ready for prime time.
<ennoausberlin>rekado_: Good to know. Will go for stumpwm then
<Digit>god grief that was a lot of tough dyslexia debugging in black & white without my usual aids... i think i've finally got my first "guix system init /mnt/etc/config.scm /mnt" errorless n apparently running.
<Digit>good grief* (i think is the correct term)
<amz3>you can install emacs
<amz3>I mean emacs-no-x or something like that
<Digit>in the initial live environment too?! i coulda had things cushy all that time?! ack
<amz3>yes in the live environmnet
<Digit>ACTION managed to "make do" roughing it with just zile.
<Digit>i'll know for next time. ... n hopefully by then know what i'm doing
<marusich>glad to hear you got it working!
<rekado_>you can also prepare the configuration file in advance in an environment you like. That's what I did last time because I find it hard to edit Scheme without sexp movement commands and without paredit.
<rm-r>i wanna to ask about few things, 1.GuixSD provide binary of a system, what that mean, system is installed by iso not binary i think, what i can do with that binary ? 2.GuixSD provide advanced text installation ? i see on photos that guix have own display manager, i can install just basic packages ? cuz i dont need any display manager i wanna install guix for tty and sometimes just startx, guix provide that kind of installation ?
<tennix>it's not production ready. you can try guix package manager in any linux distro
<rm-r>so GuixSD isnt OS ?
<tennix>it is
<rm-r>u told that its package manager
<tennix>GuixSD's package manager is guix
<rm-r>package manager isnt OS
<rm-r>its just a part
<tennix>GuixSD is not production ready. but you can follow the manual to burn it to USB pendrive
<rm-r>and what then ?
<rekado_>rm-r: There is GuixSD (the "system distribution") and there is the package manager "Guix".
<rekado_>you can use Guix on top of another distribution.
<rm-r>im interested about OS
<rekado_>some here use it on top of Debian.
<rekado_>I'm using GuixSD on my machines.
<rm-r>so GuixSD is normal OS
<rm-r>yes ?
<rekado_>it works very well for my purposes.
<tennix>oh, i thought you were interested in guix itself
<rm-r>im interested about system
<rekado_>rm-r: I don't know what you mean by "normal OS". It is a GNU system.
<rm-r>oh so that binary is binary of guix
<rm-r>but installer is guixsd
<rm-r>i see
<tennix>I'm just interested about guix itself
<rekado_>to install the operating system we provide a USB live image.
<rm-r>so i have question about that installation
<rekado_>there are there things you can download there: the USB image (to install GuixSD), the binary installer for just the package manager, and the sources.
<rm-r>i understand
<rm-r>GuixSD provide advanced text installation ? i see on photos that guixsd have own display manager, i can install just basic packages ? cuz i dont need any display manager i wanna install guixsd for tty and sometimes just startx, guixsd provide that kind of installation ?
<rekado_>GuixSD doesn't come with any default packages.
<rekado_>what is installed depends on what you add to your system configuration.
<rekado_>you can certainly just have a text console if that's what you want.
<rekado_>in that case you would not add xfce or desktop services to your configuration.
<rekado_>we don't really have an installer yet.
<rm-r><rekado_> to install the operating system we provide a USB live image.
<rm-r>its not a installer
<rekado_>you boot the USB live image and are thrown into a TTY where you can read the manual and edit the system configuration.
<rm-r>so how to install
<rm-r>what mean SD ?
<arianvp>rm-r: It requires some manual work. there's no graphical installer
<arianvp>but the instructions aren't that hard
<rekado_>once you are done editing the system configuration you initialise the system as described in the link tennix posted just now.
<rekado_>rm-r: SD = System Distribution.
<arianvp>System distribution
<rekado_>rm-r: I suggest you read (parts of) the manual first to see what work is ahead of you.
<rm-r>im not asking for graphical installer
<rm-r>im talk about command line installation
<rekado_>rm-r: there is also no text installer ;)
<rekado_>the installation is manual.
<rm-r>you know mkfs.ext4 /dev/sda
<rm-r>mount /dev/sda /mnt
<rekado_>yes, it's very much like that.
<rm-r>then install packages
<rm-r>okay so its installer what i need
<rekado_>but do check the manual first, as the installation for GuixSD differs from other GNU systems.
<rm-r>great :)
<tennix>as i said before, it's not production ready. you would have much work to get GuixSD up and running on a real machine
<rm-r>i see installation guide here
<rm-r>its not that much work
<iyzsong>oh, a real Emacs window manager, look cool:
<rm-r>yeah it is ;3
<arianvp>One of the first things I had to do (sorry guys) was get another kernel because I have a horrible laptop
<arianvp>Are there any good libre laptops out there?
<arianvp>Thinkpad X220?
<tennix>i just installed guile-emacs from guix, but it got core dumped
<davexunit>x220 isn't libre, but the x200 can be liberated.
<rm-r>GuixSD dont have large package repository
<arianvp>but old sadly enough :(
<arianvp>rm-r: It's decent. It's not that big though. But it's really easy to write packages
<davexunit>rm-r: ~2600 packages right now. we need more!
<arianvp>Would it be possible in some way to utilize nix's existing package repo?
<arianvp>as it's huge
<rm-r>its binary os
<rekado_>arianvp: we have an importer for nix stuff.
<arianvp>oh sweet
<rekado_>rm-r: you can build everything from sources with Guix, but you may also download binary substitutes instead.
<rekado_>it's up to you.
<rm-r>so i can download sources
<rm-r>with guix
<rekado_>arianvp: however, I found that packages in Nixpkgs often cut corners, so importing them isn't always an option.
<rm-r>that os looks pretty decent :) thanks ill try it maybe when ill get thinkpad x60/x200
<rm-r>btw about machines for guix
<rekado_>rm-r: correct, the package recipes contain all the information you need to fetch the sources and build them.
<rm-r>any ARM machine can be fully libre with guix ?
<rm-r>anyone here usinx arm ?
<rekado_>I have a thinkpad x200(s) and it's a really nice machine.
<rekado_>I don't think GuixSD works on ARM just yet.
<rm-r>oh okay
<rm-r>but arm machines arent fully free yes ?
<rekado_>you can only use the package manager on top of an existing distribution.
<rekado_>I don't know enough about ARM, I'm sorry.
<tennix>rm-r: look here how to define a package
<arianvp>rekado_: what do you mean by cut corners?
<tennix>it's quite simple and straight forward
<tennix>and you should have a little knowledge about scheme if you want to create a package for Guix
<rm-r>but package can be in any language
<rm-r>yes ?
<rm-r>i just giving that package to repository by scheme, program itself can be written in any language i want
<rekado_>arianvp: the few packages I wanted to copy from Nixpkgs didn't solve the problem but just used binaries instead of tracing the dependency graph.
<arianvp>scheme is just used to describe packages
<davexunit>it really bothers me that nixpkgs does that
<arianvp>the packages itself can contain any kind of source code
<rekado_>rm-r: "but package can be in any language" --- no, package recipes are scheme values, you can only write them in scheme.
<tennix>rm-r: yes, scheme is the DSL used to describe packages
<rekado_>arianvp: the package for maven, for example, just fetches the Java binary for maven.
<rm-r>why its DSL ?
<rm-r>scheme can be use without guix
<tennix>just like other dsl used to create packages for debian/archlinux/gentoo
<rekado_>for Guix I've been working on packaging it properly: building the sources, but that requires maven... so I'm packaging lots of ruby stuff to finally get to build "buildr", a drop-in replacement for maven written in Ruby. Just to build maven.
<tennix>but guix uses guile which is a implementation of scheme
<rekado_>(re maven:) this is probably insane. But in my opinion it's better than just giving up and downloading binaries.
<rekado_>Guix package definitions are written in a DSL embedded in a powerful host language: Guile Scheme.
<rekado_>it's not an external DSL that is interpreted. There are nice advantages to embedding the language in Scheme.
<tennix>rm-r: the traditional DSL used to describe packages are all shellscript-like
<tennix>yes, lisp wins here
<rm-r>i have question abouyt that scheme
<rm-r>scheme is compiled like C in example that first translate to assembly next assembler make it machine-code
<rm-r>right ?
<rekado_>not really.
<rekado_>it depends on the implementation.
<tennix>no, guile-scheme compiles to byte code
<rekado_>Guile can be interpreted or compiled to an intermediate language that runs on the Guile VM.
<tennix>some scheme implementation compiles to machine code
<tennix>like chicken-scheme
<Digit>ACTION checks on his guix installation ~ starts singing "the long and winding road, of ghc" seeing it at 30mb of 800
<rm-r>so guile is direcly compiled to byte code ?
<rm-r>it can be run in jvm
<tennix>it uses .go as byte code file extension
<rm-r>guile scheme code
<tennix>it only runs in Guile VM
<rm-r>or on guilesd
<rm-r>hmm btw
<rm-r>interpreter interprets byte code for assembly
<Digit>less enter key
<rm-r>so that bytecode from guile using interpreter yes ?
<tennix>yes, so there must be a guile installed on the machine
<rm-r>guile can be install on all architectures ?
<rm-r>that byte code isnt much slower that standard machine code
<rekado_>rm-r: for more questions about Guile's inner workings you may find Andy Wingo's blog posts on enlightening.
<tennix>yes, it's slower than machine code. I'm not sure if it can be installed on all arch, but at least most of the modern arch
<rekado_>rm-r: there also is a #guile IRC channel.
<tennix>rm-r: he/she is interested in GuixSD, now he/she gets interested int guile-scheme
<rm-r>im was read that guile is good for games, slower language can be good for games ?
<rm-r>its really much slower or only a bit ?
<rekado_>Guile is certainly not slow.
<tennix>rm-r: btw what interested you of GuixSD
<davexunit>rm-r: it really depends on the type of operations that are happening.
<rm-r>tennix: 'GuixSD is emacs of distros' im read that on site, im emacs lover
<davexunit>Guile is not slow, but it's not like running native binaries.
<rm-r>okay last question
<rekado_>Guile also has a FFI, so you can interface with "native libraries".
<davexunit>I do game programming in Guile, and it's awesome but has some challenges.
<rm-r>what is advantage od byte code that of machine code ?
<tennix>as a emacs user, you should know elisp, it's very similar to scheme
<rm-r>why people using byte code if its slower, what advantage this have ?
<tennix>cross platform
<rm-r>only that ?
<davexunit>guile will have native compilation eventually, too.
<tennix>davexunit: oh, really?
<rm-r>only advantage of byte code is cross platform yes
<rekado_>rm-r: and development flexibility.
<cpc26_>no, it is faster than using a syntax tree
<tennix>I think that's the main reason
<rm-r>development frexibility ?
<rm-r>what u mean
<tennix>Java was said to be "write once, run everywhere" because it compiles to byte code
<rm-r><rekado_> rm-r: and development flexibility. <- what is that ?
<tennix>i tested (fib 40) on my machine a few days ago with racket/guile/chicken
<rekado_>rm-r: if you have control over both the VM and the byte code, and you don't have to conform to an external standard, you are much more flexible in developing the language and compiler optimisations.
<tennix>racket runs fastest, chicken script-mode slowest
<davexunit>tennix: have you benchmarked against guile 2.1?
<tennix>davexunit: no, i'm using archlinux. the version is 2.0.11
<davexunit>the new guile has a new VM and compiler
<davexunit>with much improved performance
<davexunit>I'd be interested to see how close it comes to the racket benchmark
<tennix>really? i'd like to have a try
<tennix>the latest version in archlinux and guix are all 2.0.11
<davexunit>guix package -i guile-next
<tennix>nice, will give it a try
<tennix>davexunit: btw is lua supported with guile 2.1?
<tennix>i read from a post that lua will be supported by guile vm
<rm-r><rekado_> rm-r: if you have control over both the VM and the byte code, and
<rm-r>but guile propably have some standards ?
<tennix>scheme has a standard
<tennix>and of course as a VM, guile must have some standards
<rm-r>so i have to conform to an external standard
<tennix>GuixSD is Emacs distro, and you can access its package management in Emacs
<rm-r>how ?
<rm-r>i can access that in nano propably too
<rm-r>how to acces
<rm-r>i dont understand
<rm-r>access to code
<rm-r>or what
<rm-r>btw what this have to flexibility development ?
<tennix>I suggest you play with Guix in your existing distro
<tennix>Guix has emacs interface
<tennix>much like Emacs' builtin package management
<rm-r>i can use that interface in text mode
<rm-r><rekado_> rm-r: if you have control over both the VM and the byte code, and
<rm-r>what about that
<rm-r>i dont understand
<tennix>i guess external standard is machine related
<rm-r>ohhh okay
<rm-r>but vm have control of external standards
<rm-r>but i have control over vm
<rm-r>yes ?
<tennix>vm cares machine related standard and you just write code run in vm
<tennix>vm has unified standard for programmer
<rm-r><rekado_> rm-r: if you have control over both the VM and the byte code, and
<rm-r>but rekando says i have control over vm
<rm-r>if its unified i dont have control, its just its like its
<rekado_>rm-r: what I mean is that you can play around with both the VM and the byte code. You can also write your VM in a high-level language if you want to. But that was just a very vague statement on how using byte code and your own VM result in more flexibility.
<tennix>what i mean by "you" is language user, i think what he mean by "you" is language designer
<rekado_>the guile vm takes inspiration from other language vms, but it is up to the language designers how to implement it.
<rm-r>rekado_ so im receive more development flefixility only when im write my own vm or modify existing one
<rm-r>yes ?
<rekado_>I think a discussion at this very high level (= vague) isn't very useful.
<rm-r>rekado_ so im receive more development flefixility only when im write my own vm or modify existing one
<rm-r>its that your point
<rekado_>(note: I'm not a language designer)
<rm-r>where is that development flexibility
<tennix>rm-r: if you are emacs lover, i think you may interested in guile-emacs
<rm-r>yes im
<rm-r>its why im asking
<rm-r>where is that development flexibility
<rm-r>i dont understand ;p
<tennix>what it different from elisp is guile-scheme is much more efficient
<rm-r>im not asking for elisp or guile
<rm-r>im asking for byte code
<rm-r>where is that development flexibility
<rekado_>rm-r: I don't have time to continue this discussion.
<rekado_>ACTION packages synfigstudio
<rm-r>guile vm
<rm-r>is interpreter itself
<rm-r>yes ?
<rm-r>and compiler also ?
<tennix>as a vm platform, it interpret byte code. and it also support compilation for some languages
<rm-r>vm isnt interpreter but its contain it
<rm-r>yes ?
<tennix>not like java, there's javac the compiler and java the runtime environment
<tennix>afaik guile has only guile command, which do both things
<tennix>the so-called Emacs distro is largely because of guile
<rm-r>so guile vm is interpreter and compilator in one
<tennix>yes, and davexunit just told me guile will support for native code compilation
<rm-r>ill get into that interpreter languages later
<rm-r>clever thing
<tennix>elisp is lisp only runs in emacs, which makes emacs a awesome editor, so GNU wants to extend that customization to all gnu software.
<tennix>they select guile-scheme as gnu official script language
<rm-r>becouse language then is more adapted to software
<rm-r>yes ?
<rm-r>guile-scheme is script language ? ;o its compiled into byte code so it isnt script
<tennix>it is. You can write like a shell script with `#!/usr/bin/env guile`
<tennix>and guile automatically compile that to byte code when first run
<tennix>a little like python byte code
<rm-r>what is /usr/bin/env ?
<tennix>it's a program to detect the interpreter's location
<tennix>because some interpreter can be installed in different places
<rm-r>last 2 questions and im going
<rm-r>1.machine code have some interpreter ? 2.what non-script programming language from lisp family can u recommend ?
<tennix>machine code is binary, the hardware interprets them
<rm-r>what about second one ?
<tennix>afaik lisp family all scripted language
<tennix>but some can be compiled to machine code
<rm-r>i see
<rm-r>i was thinking that lisp is usually normal language
<tennix>what do you mean by normal language?
<rm-r>i think compiled language
<rm-r>btw interpreter interprets byte code to machine code when program is running ?
<tennix>there are tons of compiled language
<rm-r>yes tons, but not lisp
<tennix>what's your background?
<tennix>in programming
<rm-r>assembly and c
<rm-r>about my last question, so interpreter interprets byte code to machine code when program is running ?
<rm-r>from byte code to bit code ?
<tennix>i think so
<rm-r>gtg, thanks
<tennix>davexunit: hey, i just run fib.scm with guile-2.1. it takes about 5.7s
<davexunit>tennix: compared to?
<tennix>guile-2.0.11 takes 9.24s
<tennix>racket about 2.1s
<davexunit>big speedup
<tennix>chicken compiled version 4.5s
<davexunit>but I don't know how you are running the test
<davexunit>prehaps you aren't taking advantage of the compiler or something
<tennix>`time guile fib.scm`
<davexunit>okay that seems fine
<tennix>chicken without compilation is really slow
<emzi>Hi there
<emzi>I followed some links around Nix and found guix! Is there any distro (a testing one) currently using guix?
<davexunit>emzi: GuixSD, our distro.
<emzi>Ahh, I saw it, but I think it's sth like SUSE studiofor packaging by guix; Thun, it is a distro. nice.
<emzi>How do you usually pronounce Guix: /giks/?
<paroneayea>davexunit: entertaining talk
<davexunit>paroneayea: ooh, will have to watch later
<paroneayea>I take it back somewhat
<paroneayea>right after I posted it, it went from informative to obnoxious ;)
<davexunit>gotta go for a bit!
<paroneayea>(the part of the talk I liked at the beginning was the part that explored the history of how containers emerged, and where I thought the logical conclusion of "run containers on bare metal" is: at that point it's no longer a container)
<paroneayea>but it ends in an advertisement, so nevermind :)
<fps>civodul: quick question about the web site rendering. i tried to (use-modules (www packages)) and then iirc (the qemu install i have here just failed to boot) something like (export-page issues-page "packages.html") but the symbol packages-page was not defined.
<fps>same with issues-page. i guess i miss some guile syntax there
<fps>oh, i also (use-modules www) as well..
<davexunit>'www' isn't a valid module name
<fps>it is in guix-artwork
<fps>oh, my disk is full. that's why it doesn't boot ;)
<fps>davexunit: or rather guix-artwork/website
<fps>oh, i get an error while importing www already..
<efraim>pastee works suprisingly well under links, can even paste new posts
<efraim>haven't tried colors yet though
<fps>interesting. grep -R canonicalize-path doesn't exist in website/
<fps>oops, doesn't give results..
<ennoausberlin>Hello, how can I add other window managers to guix using slim?
***keverets_ is now known as keverets
<fps>ennoausberlin: good question. do other window managers appear with the default display manager?
<fps>i forgot its name
<fps>usually i'd expect them to appear automagicall
<ennoausberlin>fps: xfce and ratpoison
<ennoausberlin>fps: I restart X now.
<mark_weaver>ennoausberlin: if <OUTPUT>/share/xsessions/*.desktop is present, then slim should see it and support it as a window manager option.
<fps>mark_weaver: he just left to restart X
<mark_weaver>ah, thanks
<gur00>What's the programming language behind guix? I heard it's kind of King Lisp; Is it true?
<mark_weaver>sneek: later tell ennoausberlin: if <OUTPUT>/share/xsessions/*.desktop is present, then slim should see it and support it as a window manager option.
<sneek>Got it.
<mark_weaver>sneek: botsnack
<mark_weaver>gur00: it's Scheme, specifically Guile.
<mark_weaver>I have no idea what "King Lisp" means.
<gur00>means: lisp (lol)
<mark_weaver>Scheme is a Lisp dialect, yes
<gur00>I was migrating to sth more fuctional such as clojure, but just around 5 minute ago I read a bout Guix and its programming language
<gur00>I see it's done by GNU
***davi_ is now known as Guest90619
<gur00>And, what's your recommended tutorial/manual/book to start Guil?
<fps>i found the guile manual to be decent, though i haven't studied it in depth. i just look up things as i go along
<mark_weaver>gur00: do you know Scheme or Lisp at all?
<gur00>lisp, yes
<gur00>I was migrating to clojure
<gur00>I need to think more
<fps>why choose only one? :)
<fps>a single migration target? is it a particular project? or generally moving to another language?
<gur00>We have some big problems for re-implementing MCTDH algorithm by lisp, so we're in state to choose sth else
<fps>ok, just as a note: there's also a #guile channel for more specific guile questions..
<fps>oh, quantum physics :)
<gur00>unfortunately yes
<fps>i only once "solved" the time dependent schroedinger equation naively using newton's method..
<fps>just purely out of interest in how it would "sound" like ;)
<fps>not newton's method
<gur00>I'm not really familiar with quantum! Indeed, the poor programmer of team who are re-inventing the axle
<fps>ouch :) it's a super interesting field. i kinda gave up when it came to QFT though, except for watching susskind's youtube lectures on the subject..
<gur00>yeah, I know, it's fantastic if you study it, not code it!
<mark_weaver>gur00: that strikes me as an algorithm where maximizing performance is important. I'm not sure that Lisp is the right choice.
<fps>i was gonna ask sneakily: "why not fortran"?
<fps>but didn't quite dare to
<mark_weaver>but for relatively well performing scientific computing in Scheme, you might take a look at scmutils <> as used in Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics at MIT <>
<mark_weaver>scmutils is based on MIT/GNU Scheme, which has native compilation and has been used a fair bit for finding numerical solutions by the folks at MIT
<gur00>I told, It's currently done; We're (they're) re-coding it for sth that i can't tell more. It's not really MCTDH, a fork of it
<mark_weaver>what is "sth" ?
<gur00>I added to them after it was under lisp programming! It was more for this reason: they just knew lisp!
<gur00>It's going to be integrated inside a TEM.
<gur00>fps: sth^
<mark_weaver>the other thing is, it takes some practice to learn how to write efficient code in Lisp, e.g. by avoiding memory allocation in loops whenever possible.
<lfam>Almost 24 hours ago I sent a patch to update libpng to 1.5.24, which fixes CVE-2015-8126. That email still isn't in guix-devel archives so I have to assume something was wrong with it. Someone with push access should look into making the change.
<lfam>A lot of software depends on libpng. I think that `guix refresh -l libpng` said several hundred packages would need to be rebuilt.
<rgtk>Anyone know what is the decision of placing `/gnu' directory in root? It doesn't seem to be "unixy" at all.
<mark_weaver>lfam: hmm, I still don't see your message. are you subscribed to guix-devel? anyway, I pushed updates for libpng, libxml2, and libxslt to the 'security-updates' branch a couple of hours ago, and hydra has begun building it out:
<rekado_>oh no, another package manager altenative to npm:
<rekado_>Also: -- "Upcoming features are: * Nix-like rollbacks..."
<mark_weaver>lfam: anyway, thanks for writing the patch! I'm sorry it went to waste.
<lfam>mark_weaver: I am subscribed, and I've sent some messages successfully before.
<lfam>mark_weaver: It was a trivial patch. Just the version bump and a new hash.
<lfam>My mail client indicated that everything was successful on this end.
<mark_weaver>true, so I guess not much wasted effort, but I still appreciate the thought :)
<lfam>Most of the effort will be expended by the build hardware
<lfam>And whoever ran AFL on it
<lfam>rekado: I saw that. You'd think they would just use Nix or Guix. I guess that is what the Nix people said when Guix began :p
<lfam>Is it normal for python-2 packages to require python2-setuptools as a native-input?
<mark_weaver>lfam: actually, I think the may be something wrong with the GNU mailing lists in general. no notifications of new commits has been sent to guix-commits in the last 27 hours, and the last visible post to guix-devel was about that time as well.
<mark_weaver>*there may be
<mark_weaver>the last few times this has happened, I've been told that it was because of a massive influx of spam to (or perhaps some other attack on) GNU's mail servers.
<lfam>mark_weaver: For a while I have had the unfortunate impression that the GNU mailing lists are not that reliable. Is that your experience?
<mark_weaver>I don't know, I have no complaints. every once in a while things get delayed, but it's rare for mail to get lost. dealing with spam sensibly is a hard problem, and the more popular providers often flag a lot of legitimate email as spam, which is a more serious problem IMO.
<lfam>I agree, that is a very serious problem. It will make email into a centralized system.
<lfam>I think I am just spoiled by email providers with millions to spend on UX.
<mark_weaver>I hope not, but it's certainly true that the vast majority of people are using only a small handful of email providers.
<mark_weaver>but a few of us, myself included, continue to resist the temptation to use one of the big email providers.
<mark_weaver>my mail server is running on bare metal in my basement :)
<lfam>I have a goal to do something similar. One step at at time!
<lfam>I will probably choose to colocate mine so that I don't have to worry so much about unreliable power.
<mark_weaver>eh, I have a UPS, and you don't generally lose mail unless your system is down for a long time. MTAs retry for a while before giving up.
<mark_weaver>but colocation certainly has its benefits. for a long time I colo'd with friends, but it seems that all of my friends switched to VMs in the cloud :-(, and I found it too expensive to host physical hardware in a colo.
<lfam>It's true, but I have very limited connectivity options in my home. The price of an ISP that allows a mail server to be run here would cover a small colocation account.
<mark_weaver>I find it rather depressing, actually, how eagerly everyone has embraced a vision where just a few large corporations have root access to most of the servers in existence.
<lfam>So if I am going to pay for good hardware and a UPS and a commercial ISP, I can just buy the hardware and the colo. Then I have someone on-call to reboot, which is useful because I am away from home often.
<lfam>We'll see. I may choose your path.
<mark_weaver>yes, that is useful.
<lfam>I also find the current situation rather depressing.
<mark_weaver>in my case, I have another small ARM box with console access to the server and the ability to remotely reboot it.
<lfam>Yes, but what reboots the ARM box? ;)
<mark_weaver>heh, well, I agree it's not fullproof, but in practice it has worked well enough, and I guess not much time passes here without at least someone home.
<mark_weaver>so maybe not as workable for you, dunno.
<mark_weaver>or maybe I should have said "it's ARM boxes all the way down" :)
<lfam>Haha, that's exactly what I was thinking of. You could reboot the ARM box with an ARM microcontroller ;)
<lfam>Some ARM boxes are more reliable than others. Mine is not very.
<mark_weaver>another workable approach is to have multiple machines with console/reboot access to each other, and it's rare for them all to go down at once.
<mark_weaver>part of the reason I prefer to host in my home is that homes generally have stronger legal protections against searches than other places.
<mark_weaver>if my server is in a colo somewhere, law enforcement can come in and mess with my server without me ever being notified.
<lfam>mark_weaver: That is a good reason.
<mark_weaver>the colo might choose to voluntarily cooperate with law enforcement without challenging it.
<lfam>Not much of a difference from using gmail, hotmail, etc.
<mark_weaver>or they might be barred from telling me about it
<mark_weaver>well, I don't know, I would definitely rate "physical box in a colo" far better than using a VM or email provider.
<mark_weaver>one thing that could be done for a colo is to rig things so that you'll know if the server box is opened.
<lfam>I meant that in terms of protection against illegal search and seizure, the colo is no different from gmail et al. You definitely have more control over your mail in a colo.
<mark_weaver>e.g. by having a secondary computer with a private key, and monitors the enclosure. if the enclosure is breached, it securely dumps the key.
<lfam>I think the weakest point in that system would be my ability to set it up properly
<lfam>Maybe in a few years
<lfam>Okay, I have to go. I have a friend coming to visit so I absolutely need to buy a couch. I have left this until the last minute.
<Digit>next time i do a guix system init (or any other potentially big) command, i'm gonna prepend time to it. maybe a " && date" too