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2015-07-19.log
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<carif_>I'd like to try it on ubuntu 15.10 (vivid). I managed to boot my laptop with the usb directions, but I don't want to fool around with it if a kvm will work for experimentation <mark_weaver>yenda: you need to run the "guix archive --authorize" as described in the manual <yenda>mark_weaver: Should I interrupt the build after an hour and a half ? Will it take hours / days ? <mark_weaver>yenda: I think you should interrupt it now, authorize hydra.gnu.org, and then restart the install. <yenda>mark_weaver: ok I'm following the manual for substitute. But I don't know what it means by "the installation prefix of guix" <mark_weaver>carif_: I guess that our "guix system vm" is your best bet <mark_weaver>so that would involve first installing guix on your ubuntu system, either from source code or using our binary install, and then use it to run "guix system vm" <mark_weaver>honestly, I don't have much experience using VMs, so maybe there's a better way. <mark_weaver>another possibility is to boot up our USB installer in a VM, but I don't know what's involved in doing that. <carif_>mark_weaver, ok, so basically untar ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/guix/guix-binary-0.8.2.x86_64-linux.tar.xz in my path somewhere on ubuntu. does the 'guix sys vm' command create a kvm disk image? <mark_weaver>carif_: the binary contains directories that must be placed in /gnu/store and /var/guix <mark_weaver>that, and /var/log/guix, are the only directories modified by guix <mark_weaver>there's also "guix system vm-image" and "guix system disk-image" <mark_weaver>carif_: after installing 'guix', you should run "guix pull" before running "guix system vm", in order to use our latest package descriptions. <davexunit>mark_weaver: about how long does it take to bootstrap guix on your novena? <davexunit>I haven't tried it yet for fear of how time consuming it is. <mark_weaver>davexunit: I don't know exactly, because there were some problems to fix along the way, and I ended up restarting it a number of times, rebuilding some parts multiple times, but I get the impression that using 2/4 cores, it takes certainly less than 2 days to get to 'hello'. <mark_weaver>(I've been using only 2 cores, because of overheating problems when I use more) <mark_weaver>(I do this by echo 0 > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu2/online <civodul>mark_weaver, davexunit: one of you (or ae) should run 'guix publish' on the Novena :-) <mark_weaver>although actually, I recall hearing that xobs implemented automatically throttling in the kernel, so if you have an up-to-date kernel from them, you can probably use all cores without a problem. <mark_weaver>ACTION is embarrassed at not before having taking a close look at it. <mark_weaver>I'm a bit worried that it would involve a lot of outgoing bandwidth on my home network, if I were to be the main distributor of armhf binaries for guix. <davexunit>mark_weaver: well, it could be a "private" server, to bootstrap other devs. there would be no obligation to build every package, either. if the binary isn't available on your machine, we'll just have to build from source. <davexunit>but if it can save that initial 2 day bootstrap period, that would be great. <davexunit>civodul: is there an easy way that I could host armhf binaries on my x86 vps? <mark_weaver>davexunit: oh, sure, I could give them to you, and many a few other folks. <davexunit>not for the build farm, but just for us devs. <davexunit>that way mark wouldn't have to serve them a bunch of times. <davexunit>and I could just keep them on my high bandwidth limit VPS <davexunit>yenda: the usb installer is built from the guix source tree <yenda>davexunit: :D ok. Silly me I was trying to find the original content of the acl file because I overrided it <civodul>yenda: initially the file doesn't exist <civodul>so you can remove it and rerun "guix archive --authorize < .../hydra.gnu.org.pub" <yenda>civodul: Is it all I have to do to enable substitutes ? because it is still building stuff <civodul>and make sure to not pass --no-substitutes <civodul>it could be that substitutes are missing for some of the things you want, though <yenda>civodul: I only used the template for desktop <mark_weaver>I don't know that hydra still has binaries from 0.8.2 <mark_weaver>civodul: does hydra guarantee retention of the 0.8.2 binaries? <yenda>mark_weaver: so I'm doing it now <civodul>mark_weaver: i thought i had added a jobset, but i can't find it <mark_weaver>it's possible that I deleted it, although I don't have a clear memory of doing so. if so, sorry about that. <mark_weaver>I could imagine myself cleaning up when disk space was low <civodul>maybe i simply didn't create it, can't remember <davexunit>ooh, the novena kernel will soon have the right kernel settings enabled to run guix, if the update isn't already out. <davexunit>civodul: this clause of my OS config seems to no longer be valid: (hosts-file (local-file "hosts")) <davexunit>I could've sworn things were recently changed to make this work. <civodul>davexunit: this should work, what's the problem? <civodul>i think you're using an older guix, which expected a procedure there <davexunit>I symlinked ~/.config/guix/latest to my source tree <yenda>but it's asking me for a password and I don't have any <yenda>i did but i probably did it wrong because it worked now <mark_weaver>from the root account, you can set the password on all the accounts <mark_weaver>or you can include the encrypted passwords in the OS config <yenda>if I want to change the keyboard layout I have to install setxkbdmap or kbd ? <yenda>well I guess it's more of a linux question usually setxkbdmap is installed so I'll go for it <yenda>how are the file in /etc/skel generated ? Are they available somewhere else ? <carif_>I have guix installed, 'quix --version' returns 0.8.2. 'quix system vm-image' returns an error 'wrong number of arguments for vm-image'. Is it expecting an .scm file for input? If so, what? <iyzsong>carif_: yes, it need an os config file, 2 examples were provided in 'gnu/system/examples'. <carif_>mark_weaver, fyi for the next guy, ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/guix/gnu-system-demo-0.6.qcow2.xz is an operational kvm image file that can be run directly just to see if works. I'd still like to learn how to roll my own, so you pointed me on the correct path... <carif_>thanks for you help, a very welcoming community <davexunit>I know that some of us wanted to target openstack for guix deployments <paroneayea>davexunit: is a way to be able to push out VMs to various hosts. <paroneayea>davexunit: and probably there are a lot of terrible things about openstack, but it might still be the best option we've got <paroneayea>davexunit: I'm pretty sure though that all the massive cash that poured into openstack didn't necessarily change it for the better <paroneayea>davexunit: and the "apache model means corporations are more comfortable" method doesn't seem to be helping either! <paroneayea>Everyone I know who is deploying OpenStack has forked. Not publicly, but they have. No one can run the mainline code, it’s a disaster, and OpenStack politics of the “Big Tent” are going to make that problem a lot worse. Because everyone has their own fork, very little code is making it back upstream. Several of my last jobs, I tried to make OpenStack upstream better. To tell you how well that went, look at my stackalytics profile (if I <paroneayea>even have one any more). I haven’t committed code in over three years, and I wanted to help. I tried to help. I failed. <davexunit>and then choose the gnome icons in the xfce appearance settings <davexunit>fixed a problem that's been bugging me for awhile every time I build sly <davexunit>now the compiled modules are installed to the right place <yenda>when I install a package does it update my config file ? <yenda>I was also wondering because there is both (use-package-module) and (packages) in the config file if I want to install for instance emacs, do I have to mention the package in both ? <davexunit>yenda: use-package-modules is syntax for importing the modules that contain packages <davexunit>it doesn't magically add packages to your OS config <davexunit>it's sugar for: (use-modules (gnu packages emacs) ...) <yenda>davexunit: so (use-package) is for importing and (package) is the actuall install ? <davexunit>'packages' is a field of an <operating-system> object <paroneayea>davexunit: paulproteus points out that libcloud may handle nearly everything we find interesting <davexunit>we don't really want an abstraction over this stuff, we want to be that abstraction. <yenda>it's not just multicloud, every cloud has it's driver, there is the standard api for all the clouds and specific drivers with extra functionnalities depending on the cloud <davexunit>yenda: the tool we're working on has a driver interface for whatever type of infrastructure you're deploying to <yenda>so you're working on a competitor ? <davexunit>so we're shooting for a standard api for anything, not just "clouds", like NixOps <yenda>the gnoe-icon-theme is taking forever to installer <yenda>looks like there is tons of dependency as well <davexunit>I'm not sure why that would be, but it could be due to the gtk+ native input <davexunit>could be a case of a reference sneaking its way into the build output for no good reason <iyzsong>gnome-icon-theme is propagated by the xfce meta package already, but you have to choose it in the xfce4-apperance-settings. <davexunit>iyzsong: is there any way to set it as the system default? <yenda>I did cp -a /etc/skel/.* /home/yenda and then rm -r /home/yenda/* because that's not what I wanted to copy. Now /etc/skel/ is gone too... <yenda>Is there somewhere else I can find the content of the skel folder ? I wanted to use it to make my all <yenda>how is it even possible that rm deletes original files when you delete a cp I don't get it. <yenda>ty davexunit btw it was there too <iyzsong>look like 'cp -a' is not desired here. <yenda>and also it didn't delete anything actually I just used the alias ll and I'm use to have it mapped to the -la flag :D <yenda>so I just didn't see the file <yenda>thanks all looks like I have an operating system now (pun intended) <paroneayea>ACTION trying to get akka running on his debian machine <yenda>is there a guixsd way to configure keyboard layout ? <paroneayea>maybe I need to log out and in again, though I'm not sure that makes sense <rekado->yenda: in the configuration you can add (console-keymap-service "dvorak") to the services to change the keyboard layout to "dvorak", for example. <alezost>yenda: that ^^^ is for the console (it's the same as using "loadkeys dvorak"), for the gui you may use setxkbdmap or whatever you use on the other distros <rekado->alezost: I don't really understand this Emacs autoload business. For a package like emacs-pdf-tools what do I need to do to use the generated autoload file? <rekado->what exactly are these extracted autoloads for? <alezost>rekado-: autoloads are not really useful for pdf-tools, but if 'pdf-view-mode' was autoloaded, you could add ("\\\\.[pP][dD][fF]\\\\'" . pdf-view-mode) to 'auto-mode-alist', so once you open a pdf file the required pdf stuff will be loaded. <alezost>But generally it is useful: the point is you don't need to require a whole package. Instead some commands are being autoloaded, so if you install some "super-foo" emacs package, which has "super-foo" command, you may use "M-x super-foo" right away because it is autoloaded, without putting (require 'super-foo) or alike in your init file <alezost>rekado-: you don't need to require …-autoloads, it is done by guix-init <alezost>the same thing happens with packages installed by emacs package system (aka "package.el"): any "~/.emacs.d/elpa/foo-0.1" dir has "foo-autoloads.el" file which is loaded on emacs start <rekado->alezost: thanks for the explanation. <alezost>a file: (require 'guix-init) is the recommended way to use emacs UI for guix <rekado->some people say that the ghostscript problems (failure to convert ps to pdf) were fixed by upgrading fontconfig. <rekado->fontconfig-2.11.94 has a failing test, unfortunately. <rekado->and it causes a lot of packages to be rebuilt. <rekado->Hmm, something I've done must have changed permissions of /dev/null (I did not do this manually). <rekado->ls says this: -rw------- 1 root root 42277 Jul 19 11:29 /dev/null <rekado->this is a bit of a problem, I think. No idea how this could have happened. <rekado->recreated /dev/null with mknod, but I find it scary that I *somehow* managed to replace it with a regular file. <amz3>that's they way of hacking ;) <davexunit>again I'm beginning to think that downloading gems from rubygems.org may be a bad idea <davexunit>the log4r gem, for instance, is missing its Rakefile, which prevents us from running its test suite. <davexunit>seems there's no completely sane way to handle Ruby gems. <yenda>alezost: I used setxkbmap but it is not persistent and I would like to have the proper layout for the logging screen <alezost>yenda: I suppose you mean slim, right? What do you use on other distros to set layout for a logging screen? <yenda>alezost: I'm using arch and systemd checks a config file at startut to setup the keymap <yenda>and yes I mean slim, but if the ttys were also with the right layout it would be perfect. I wonder if there is a way to make the whole ystem treat the keyboard as fr <alezost>yenda: for the tty see rekado's answer <alezost>tty and X layouts are different things, so I think there shouldn't be a single "keyboard" or whatever field in a operating-system declaration <alezost>rekado-: ISTR you use dvorak, right? Do you use slim as well? If so, how did you solve the layout problem in slim? <davexunit>iyzsong: do you know how to get a volume widget in xfce? <iyzsong>ah, it look like xfce4-mixer is the thing, but it requires gstreamer-0.10.. <cirno9>I was wondering why guix package reconfigure builds inkscape? since I haven't installed that (desktop profile) <alezost>cirno9: for grub logo. I think you can use (bootloader (grub-configuration (device "/dev/sda") (theme (grub-theme)))) to prevent using inkscape <alezost>(I'm not sure though as I always use "--no-grub" option) <alezost>ouch, cirno9 left when I was writing :-( <yenda>alezost: what do you use if you don't use slim ? <yenda>tbh I woudln't mind if it wasn't there. On arch I connect to my session via simple tty and then only it becomes graphical <alezost>yenda: I use dmd (user instance) to start Xorg server, WM and other user things <alezost>yenda: yes, I also boot into tty (with autologin), and then run my "gui" script which runs GUI stuff managed by dmd for me <yenda>I just have exec startx in my bash_profile and exec i3 in .xinitrc <yenda>I guess I'll take some time to read dmd manual maybe it can even handle my layout problem <iyzsong>cirno9: unlike zsh, the rc shell don't read '/etc/profile', so I think we can't use it for login shell now. it missing envs, same as 'env -i $(which rc)'. <cirno9>ah! thankn you - that explains why I had so muuch trouble with it <sneek>Welcome back cirno9, you have 1 message. <sneek>cirno9, alezost says: inkscape is needed for grub logo. I think you can use (bootloader (grub-configuration (device "/dev/sda") (theme (grub-theme)))) to prevent using inkscape <yenda>My display is connected in HDMI to my graphic card but I don't have 1080p resolution. In xfce config it caps at 1280*1204. I could live with it but it gives a blur effect and a black margin. Any clue how to fix this ? use xrandr ? <yenda>well xrandr caps at 1280x1024 too <alezost>yenda: perhaps it misses a driver for you videocard. Could you look at /var/log/Xorg.0.log for errors? <yenda>alezost: I installed it with guix package -i xf86-video-ati yesterday, should I had it to the config ? <alezost>yenda: if you use slim, then installing this package in your user profile will not take any effect: Xorg will see only the modules listed in that "xorg.scm" <alezost>yenda: but you may try to check how it would work. Did you also installed xorg-server? <yenda>alezost: I installed with the basic desktop config file <yenda>so there is xorg in (use-package-modules) not in pcakages unless it's included in %base-packages <iyzsong>yenda: (use-packages-modules) is just a alias for (use-modules (gnu packages ...)) <alezost>yenda: ok, so "which X" gives you something, right? if you have time, we can try to check if X with ati driver will give you the desired resolution, and if so, then we definitely should add ati to that module list <cirno9>I was wonddering how to build my own guix package for a program not in the packages list? I found how to defien a package in the docs but its not enough, and I found https://pastee.org/2fa3h which has more info <yenda>alezost: I have time otherwise I wouldn't be installing an alpha system :D ty for your help. <davexunit>cirno9: you can add a package to one of the modules in gnu/packages in the source tree, if you have that setup. <davexunit>or, you can make your own separate tree of packages and set GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH appropriately so guix will use them. <davexunit>I encourage the first option so that you can send us a patch that adds the package. :) <alezost>yenda: So we want to run X server with ati driver (and other required modules). At first install some packages (you may easily delete them (rollback) later): "guix package -i xorg-server xf86-input-evdev xf86-video-fbdev xf86-video-modesetting xf86-video-ati" <yenda>alezost: as user or as sudo ? <alezost>yenda: as a user: just run that "guix …" command <yenda>alezost: ok none were installed execpt for xf86-video-ati <yenda>shoud I reboot once it's done ? <alezost>yenda: no, you shouldn't reboot. What do you mean: none was installed? <alezost>everything should have been installed <yenda>alezost: I mean they were not there before except the ati driver which was already installed by me <alezost>yenda: sorry, I didn't get what you mean, does "which X" gives you smth? <yenda>Before I run the command the xf86-video-ati package was already there (I used guix package -i for it yesterday). So guix only added the others. But it wasn't even an important statement <yenda>"which X /home/yenda/.guix-profile/bin/X" <alezost>yenda: ok, now you can run X server. Try this: sudo X :1 vt8 -nolisten tcp -logverbose -noreset -modulepath "$HOME/.guix-profile/lib/xorg/modules" (don't forget to return with Ctrl-Alt-F7 or whatever) <yenda>if there was no X server before what was handling the graphical interface ? <alezost>yenda: there is X server but running on DISPLAY :0 and vt7 (I think), that will be another one <yenda>alezost: it just gives me a prompt <yenda>I ran it in a terminal in xfce <alezost>yenda: a prompt? are there any messages after that command? <alezost>I have a feeling that you pasted an incomplete command <alezost>yenda: you should be thrown to vt8 with a black screen <alezost>yenda: could you paste the whole "/var/log/Xorg.1.log" <yenda>alezost: pastebin.com/rzMWCS3p <alezost>yenda: I beg a pardon, connection problems <iyzsong>yenda: this log don't anything for '-modulepath $HOME/.guix-profile/lib/xorg/modules', did you pass the right command arguments? <alezost>yenda: yes, it looks like you missed "-modulepath" arg <alezost>yenda: if everything will be ok, you'll be thrown to vt8 (with a black screen), then return with Ctrl+Alt+F7 and after that you can start smth on that X server like this: "DISPLAY=:1 xterm &" <alezost>yenda: modulepath is wrong: there shouldn't be $HOME - I meant it to be expanded by your shell into "/home/yenda" <yenda>my bad. still doesn't work though but the log file is different <iyzsong>The error is about missing '/dev/dri/card0', I wonder whether your card is supported by linux kernel. yenda, which card you have? (as reported by `lspci | grep VGA') <iyzsong>yenda: maybe it need firmware.. anything interesting about 'radeon' in the output of the `dmesg' command? <yenda>On reddit people say that the opensource driver for that card works almost flawlessly <alezost>hm, so the ati driver apparently loaded, but the X server failed to start. I'm afraid I don't know what to do with those "/dev/dri/card0: No such file or directory". Strange thing is that you have the same errors in your Xorg.0.log, but it loaded nonetheless <yenda>(discovered termbin 10 min ago it's neat for quick pastebin via netcat) <alezost>I see "radeon 0000:01:00.0: Direct firmware load for /*(DEBLOBBED)*/ failed with error -2" <alezost>yenda: perhaps the default X server is started successfully because it uses 'vesa' which doesn't care about any firmware <iyzsong>yeah, the site look cool. but I afraid you have to figure out how to use the non-free firmware on your own. <yenda>is it related to guix or it's more of a xorg problem ? <iyzsong>and it's about use the customize (origin, instead of our linux-libre) linux kernel, AFAIK wingo have did it successful, but I think it's really a pain way. <yenda>so if I understand correctly the driver for ati is opensource but the firmware is propriatary blob and linux-libre doesn't want that ? <yenda>and it currently works because it uses vesa, with corresponding limitations <yenda>I wonder how many other downside to linux-libre there is <alezost>I would say it's more a downside of proprietary firmware (or software) <yenda>alezost: that's the truth but that's not how the world works <yenda>when others do silly things to get some functionnalities most people don't care as long as they have the functionnalities <yenda>alezost: but now I'm puzzled, I don't think there is such a thing as a free firmware for a gpu card. So nobody on linux-libre has one ? <alezost>yenda: I think that if there was such a thing, than the linux kernel would have it and linux-libre would have it too <yenda>so my best chance to get a proper resolution and keep linux libre is to get rid of the card and use the integrated gpu of the motherboard ? <alezost>I think so, if the problem is really in the proprietary firmware. To make sure, try to install vesa (and perhaps remove ati): "guix package -i xf86-video-vesa" and then try to start X server on vt8 again. <alezost>yenda: I see that modulepath is "$/home/yenda/.guix-profile/lib/xorg/modules" there <yenda>alezost: what should I do now ? <alezost>yenda: you mean now when? after switching from vt8? <yenda>alezost: I mean this time I got no error and it switched to vt8 <alezost>yenda: that's good; now you may run terminal there: "DISPLAY=:1 xterm &", then Ctrl+Alt+F8, and see that xrandr gives you unpleasant 1280x1024 :-) <alezost>no, Ctrl+Alt+F7, then run this command: "DISPLAY=:1 xterm &" (if you have xterm installed), then Ctrl+Alt+F8 <yenda>alezost: yes still 1280x1024 <alezost>yenda: that's exactly what we wanted to find: vesa works, ati doesn't due to a proprietary firmware :-( <yenda>so the ati package is basically useless isn't it ? <yenda>except for those running guix package manager on a standard linux distro which supports binary blbs <alezost>it is useless in your case, but perhaps for some ati cards there are free firmwares, I don't know <yenda>on phoronix "AMD GPUs without firmware blobs can't do 3d acceleration, for example" useless :( <alezost>yenda: sorry about that, I can imagine your enthusiasm, and then such an unpleasant discovery <yenda>I removed the GPU card and I'm trying with the integrated gpu now <yenda>unfortunately it's a radeon HD as well (4***) so I don't have much hope about it <paroneayea>logging out and in again fixed the permissions stuff ;) <yenda>guixSD is alpha but what's the state of guix package manager ? <mthl>yenda: Guix is alpha too. <phant0mas>hey mark_weaver I rebased wip-hurd on top of core-updates <phant0mas>is it okay to delete the old wip-hurd and push the new one? <yenda>wingo: did you wrote an article about your experience using linux instead of linux-libre in guixsd ? <yenda>paroneayea: I know but I thought there was a bot for messages on this channel ? <alezost>yenda: there is sneek; just say "sneek: later tell wingo ..." <civodul>alezost: BTW, i thought i'd just remove the manually-maintained list in 'AUTHORS', and instead just add a note saying that the list is automatically generated <yenda>sneek: later tell wingo did you manage to replace linux-libre by vanilla linux in guixsd and if so did you wrote something about it ? <mark_weaver>civodul: btw, in my opinion core-updates is ready to merge, but currently I've stopped hydra-evaluator pending the completion of GC. <mark_weaver>and I'd rather not merge until hydra is ready to rebuild <yenda>well my computer is not pure enough for linux-libre, even the embedded gpu needs non-free firmware <yenda>and the wifi card but I could live without it <civodul>mark_weaver: i was looking at it and yes, it looks ready to merge <civodul>but i'm fine waiting for GC to complete <alezost>civodul: as in ChangeLog? Yeah, good idea <mark_weaver>yenda: if you have the means, please consider getting a computer that respects your freedom, such as the Libreboot X200. <mark_weaver>that said, guix allows you to specify which kernel to use in the OS config, and multiple ways to create private packages (e.g. GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH) <mark_weaver>or build guix from a git repo, keep a private branch that you periodically rebase onto upstream master, and make any modifications you desire. that's what I do. <mark_weaver>(I run GuixSD on a Libreboot X200 and it works very well, with accelerated graphics) <yenda>mark_weaver: it's sad that the only laptops that respect your freedom have years old hardware <yenda>I suppose it's easier to build a desktop though <yenda>but I'm still looking for a decent supported gpu <mark_weaver>we have not yet learned how to run newer intel machines without loading megabytes of proprietary software and backdoors. <civodul>i have a Dell laptop, and only had to add a ThinkPenguin wifi dongle to use only free software <mark_weaver>Intel graphics are best supported right now, although nouveau may work well on some nvidia models. <mark_weaver>a few years ago, when I liberated a friend's macbook with nvidia hardware, I found that the GPU was prone to lock-ups when using nouveau, but heard that some boards work more reliably than others, and things may have improved since then, I don't know. <civodul>my understanding is that high-end boards don't work very well with Nouveau, whereas lower-end boards are fine <yenda>I might be wrong but as far as I understand them gpus are like servers you send computations too and they render the result on the screen. If you put a proprietary firmware in them it makes them blackboxes for graphical computations. It's not perfect but I can live with it. How can they harm the system as long as it's just the firmware and not the driver ? <mark_weaver>as the intermediary in the primary form of I/O from the computer to its user, the graphics system is a core part of the computer. I don't think it makes sense to think of it as a mere "server". <yenda>mark_weaver: I wonder if the laptops at http://www.thinkpenguin.com are entirely free as well. Seems like they run Triskel so it might be, and they have much more recent hardware <mark_weaver>yenda: sure, if you don't mind the non-free BIOS, including ME/AMT. <mark_weaver>newer intel chipsets include an independent processor that runs a complete proprietary OS with access to the network devices. <mark_weaver>supporting a backdoor to remotely reconfigure your computer <yenda>sound like being librist is harder than being raw vegan <mark_weaver>it's easy if you're willing to sacrifice a little speed <daviid>^^ the worst (non)human 'inventions' are these non free BIOS against humanity war guns, ^^proof that (non)humans are, for the vast majority, completely psychopathe <rekado->I've got a X200(s) and I don't think it's slow at all. <mark_weaver>if we value performance more than our freedom, we will lose our freedom. <rekado->what do people do with their computers that would make an X200 seem slow? <yenda>for instance yesterday I imported an osm map. 4.7Gb of xml to parse <yenda>or watching a movie in 1080p or 4K <rekado->well, for these things I wouldn't use a laptop. <daviid>at the lab i work, where i changed completely the s/w usage fromk non free to free, it took me 7 years, some processing using top notch computers, takes 19h <rekado->(I do audio processing, mixing, recording, etc on a T60) <rekado->for all the above (except parsing XML): if you're using your CPU for that you're doing it wrong. <rekado->I thought for image processing people still used workstations. <rekado->libreboot supports quite a few mainboards. <mark_weaver>yenda: I can see the appeal of having a computer a few years newer than the one I use, but the bottom line is that I value my freedom more. <yenda>my laptop is 1 and the only feature I wanted was light weight and 1080p screen <mark_weaver>yenda: in the area of non-laptops, the best board currently supported by libreboot is the ASUS KFSN4-DRE. <rekado->(Personally, I don't think the difference between new and somewhat older computers is big enough to tempt me to rely on non-free software.) <mark_weaver>yenda: as I recall, some of the ThinkPads supported by libreboot includes some with relatively high-resolution screens, although I've forgotten the details. <mark_weaver>I have logs from #libreboot with francis7 (the main libreboot dev) talking about taking a 1920x1200 screen from a W500 and putting it into a T500, which is supported by libreboot. <mark_weaver>and he said "it should be easy to add libreboot support for [the W500]" <yenda>I had a thinkpad before and I wanted to upgrade the screen but it wadn't possible because without doing some risky soldering and I'm not a big fan of tha <mark_weaver>yenda: I would encourage you to ask on #libreboot. they might be able to help you find a machine that suits your needs. <mark_weaver>I wrote "T500, which is supported by libreboot", but it might be that only a subset of T500 models are supported. <yenda>I will when I'll change my machines <yenda>I'm in an internship I don't even have a wage yet <mark_weaver>if you make freedom a priority the next time you purchase a computer, I'll be glad enough :) <mark_weaver>in the meantime, there is a 'kernel' field in the operating-system declaration, where you can reference a kernel of your choosing. and you can create private packages using GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH or keeping your own private branch in git. <yenda>you wouldn't be glad if I'd tell you I recommanded a chromebook to my grandfather :D <yenda>I was tired of cleaning his vista virus honeypot <yenda>and the concept of software freedom is not really a concern for his generation, I'm glad enough that he can use and enjoy the internet <mark_weaver>I think it's very important to us all, but we cannot expect our family members to understand. <yenda>what makes me sad though is how little people in the field care about software freedom <mark_weaver>each of us can help by talking about it with our friends, family, and co-workers. <yenda>I'd rather say it's impossible <mark_weaver>how can it be impossible to talk about an issue with other people? <yenda>Well first you have the Apple kind <yenda>They will never ever care as long as Apple doesn't care <daviid>yenda: no, it _is_ possible, we do it, as i said it took me 7 years to convince a university here in brasil, which received prior to my investment, money from microsoft ... and now, the lab [not the university yet] and the department are running debian, teaches image processing using fiji [it used to be a non free s/w from germany and belgium] ... <yenda>Well of all Apple users I'm the only one I convinced to switch :D <daviid>as mark_weaver we all _have_ to do our litrtle drop in the ocean ... <yenda>daviid: you are talking about an organisation not individuals <mark_weaver>yenda: I can understand that trying to talk about these issues seems futile most of the time. but it's a mistake to think that it is. <daviid>yenda: this 'organisation' are run by individuals <daviid>and students a re indicuduals ... <mark_weaver>that work is composed of people talking to their friends, and the change that this makes is so slow that it seems glacial. <daviid>as mark_weaver said, you speak to one, 2 or 10, then tehy strat to speak to their friends ... <yenda>it's even worst if you want them to switch to total freedom <mark_weaver>but when enough people do it, it *does* make a difference. some people slowly start to think about it more. some of them get involved. some of them take it into account the next time they buy a computer. not many, but some. <daviid>our mission is to teach what is free s/w and why people should be concerned <daviid>at first the head of the department did not even wanted to hear about free s/w, he said: we receive licenses for free from microblah <mark_weaver>I wonder how deeply you have thought about the consequences to central authorities controlling almost all computers in the world. <yenda>For instance I made a friend switch (to Ubuntu not even free software). But for her studies she needed adobe with wine. Still better than vista, but she wasn't really happy with all the troubles <mark_weaver>among other things, this is the kind of centralized power on a mass scale is the kind of thing that enables a switch to more dictatorial forms of government. <daviid>do you give drug to your children? he said surely not why? well because teaching in a university using non free software is like giving drugs to the students, slowly they [think they] become dependent ... <yenda>daviid: yes absolutely. in my university we had to code C in visual studio to use some gtk libraries <daviid>he was chocked, but start ed to think about it. then i added: if you do not do it fro you or for the students, do it for your kids <yenda>probably because the teacher was too lazy to figure out an other way <daviid>yes comfort is the usual response, 'why should do i bother, it works fione. i'm used to it ...' <yenda>in database class in my ingeneer school we use oracle... in a vm... on xp. <daviid>yenda: never ever give up! never ever, because, as you are already sensible enough to be concerned, you would not support yourself anymore if you abandoned ... haha have to go, bbl <yenda>mark_weaver: you mean like the internet ? <mark_weaver>the internet can cut both ways, and it depends largely on whether people have control over their computers, and on the software and protocols they use to communicate over the internet. <yenda>mark_weaver: also how would you convince your company to give up Office ? What alternative do they have in a world where appearences are the number one concern. Nobody will want to give up PowerPoint <yenda>you have office360 but whats the point of having a free computer software if you give up the data ? <yenda>not even talking about how much people use excel in companies it's insane <mark_weaver>convincing other people is hard, I will grant you that. <yenda>mark_weaver: it's not convincing that is hard, it's giving them proper alternatives <mark_weaver>but I can control what I do, but not accepting jobs that require me to use non-free software. <mark_weaver>yenda: I don't understand what you meant by "you have office360 but whats the point of having a free computer software if you give up the data ?" <mark_weaver>I'm not very familiar with presentation software, but I'm skeptical that free software doesn't have good tools for producing presentations. have you looked for replacements and found them severely lacking? <yenda>Steap: what kind of feedback ? l5 dépendence -> dépendance <mark_weaver>I know that Libreoffice includes presentation software, and there are other tools as well. <yenda>mark_weaver: it's nowhere close to the office suite in terms of functionalities and rendering. It's the feedbacks I've had from many people who tried it. <yenda>mark_weaver: office360 is office in the browser so you can use it in any browser, the backend is in the cloud <mark_weaver>yenda: you seem to be more inclined to just give up on this. <mark_weaver>I guess perhaps you don't think it will be very important in the end. <Steap>just wondering if it seems good enough :) <yenda>mark_weaver: do you bother if I mp you ? <yenda>if I figure how to do it with circe :D <yenda>/MSG mark_weaver the chan is logged in google in like 5 min :D <mark_weaver>yenda: I didn't know what office360 was. indeed, running non-free javascript from a website is no better than running a non-free program in some other way. <Steap>paroneayea: hahaha, love the "I don't speak French" :p <yenda>mark_weaver: running non-free javascript is not even the biggest concern when you drop your files in microsoft cloud <mark_weaver>yenda: hmm? did you somehow ask google to start logging here? <yenda>no but last time I asked something here the only relevant result was my own question 5 min later <yenda>it's not google logging the bot is just parsing the public log quite often apparently <mark_weaver>yenda: losing control over your data is also something we must resist, indeed.