IRC channel logs

<davexunit>trying to think if there's anything else I need to backup before I install guixsd on my laptop...

<davexunit>alright... time to take the plunge...

<davexunit>can we create swap partitions yet? :)

<davexunit>not sure if I have to do anything special to get that to work.

<davexunit>all I've managed to make my laptop do so far is kernel panic :(

<zacts>oh wow nice update to the guix homepage

<rekado>I need some assistance with dbus services.

<rekado>I just packaged gnome-keyring.

<rekado>it comes with /share/dbus-1/services/*.service

<rekado>how can I start these services?

<rekado>do I need to write a dmd wrapper?

<rekado>The manual says that a package must come with an etc/dbus-1/system.d directory, yet gnome-keyring only has share/dbus-1/.

<davexunit>hey #guix

<davexunit>got a kernel panic I can't figure out.

<davexunit>grub doesn't display the nice theme it's supposed to, and then when I boot I get a kernel panic but I can't see enough text to know why.

<davexunit>any tips for troubleshooting further?

<rekado>is the bit of the backtrace you see at all helpful?

<davexunit>rekado: no, unfortunately.

<davexunit>I can't tell what actually happened.

<davexunit>it's sort of like it can't find the disk

<davexunit>but I think it's too far along for that

<davexunit>since it's in the initrd phase (I think)

<davexunit>the file system has a label "root", just like the machine I'm typing on has.

<davexunit>no issues on this computer.

<davexunit>since I don't see the guixsd theme at the grub menu, I imagine it's a disk thing.

<civodul>Hello Guix!

<davexunit>hey civodul

<davexunit>civodul: I installed guixsd on my laptop, but all I get are kernel panics. I can't see enough of the log to really know what's going on.

<davexunit>all I know is that my grub menu does not show the guixsd theme like it should

<civodul>davexunit: there's an open bug for the logo issue

<civodul>but the rest, uh!

<civodul>you don't even get a REPL?

<davexunit>nope

<civodul>could you test your config in 'guix system vm'?

<davexunit>yeah I'll try that

<davexunit>it's the base desktop system with a couple packages changed. I'll copy it over to this machine and give it a shot.

<civodul>hmm, ok

<civodul>looks like we have a bunch of interesting bugs to fix :-)

<davexunit>I wish I could see more of the log when the panic happens

<davexunit>but I can see only an unhelpful backtrace

<davexunit>my setup isn't particularly unique. thinkpad x220 with an ext4 partition labeled "root"

<davexunit>I also have a currently unused swap partition from my debian installation, but I don't think that can mess with anything.

<davexunit>which reminds me, I didn't see any way to specify a swap partition in the OS config.

<mark_weaver>davexunit: there's a field 'swap-devices', e.g. (swap-devices '("/dev/sda2"))

<mark_weaver>or, if you want to do it by label, as I do, you can write something like (swap-devices '("/dev/disk/by-label/jojen-swap"))

<davexunit>mark_weaver: oh cool.

<davexunit>thanks

<mark_weaver>I've found that several some kinds of errors in the OS config can result in a kernel panic with not enough diagnostic information to figure out what's going on, unfortunately. in my case, I have mispelled some identifier in a service definition.

<mark_weaver>s/have/had/

<civodul>yes, that sucks

<davexunit>here's my config: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148574

<mark_weaver>I think that DMD should robustly protect itself from errors in user configuration, perhaps by running most things in subprocesses.

<civodul>mark_weaver: maybe we could run PID1 with no arguments, and then do the equivalent of 'deco load dmd foo.scm', where there actually is some error handling

<davexunit>I think my initrd is dying, not dmd.

*mark_weaver looks

<davexunit>but again, I don't know.

<civodul>"normally", you would get a REPL when something goes wrong

<mark_weaver>davexunit: the "dave" groups isn't specified. no sure if that's the problem.

<davexunit>hmm, didn't realize I had to specify that.

<davexunit>it was "users" before. is that group there by default?

<mark_weaver>(groups (cons (user-group (name "dave") (id 1000)) %base-groups))

<mark_weaver>"users" is included in %base-groups

<davexunit>I'm waiting on a VM build, let's see if this shows the same issue.

<mark_weaver>btw, there's an assymmetry between 'users' and 'groups'. With 'users', you just specify the list of users you care about and root (and others?) get added automatically if needed. With 'groups' you should cons the groups you care about to %base-groups.

<civodul>yes, we need %base-users with "nobody", for instance

<civodul>"root" is special anyway

<mark_weaver>civodul: regarding dmd, I don't know enough about how deco works to know whether it's a good approach, but on the surface your suggestion sounds good :)

<civodul>ok :-)

<mark_weaver>civodul: I'll just mention one other requirement: after 'guix system reconfigure', you should be able to restart services and get the new ones, somehow.

<mark_weaver>and preferably without the risk of dmd dying and bringing down the system :)

<davexunit>hehe

<davexunit>pid 1 is precious.

<civodul>mark_weaver: of course, that's been on the to-do list of as long as 'reconfigure' has existed :-)

<civodul>but indeed, that requires some thought

<mark_weaver>to my mind, the first approach that comes to mind is to not load any user code at all into PID 1, but only in subprocesses.

<civodul>the first step (for both problems actually) is to emit one .scm file per service

<civodul>the problem is that it's PID 1 that needs to know the service DAG

<mark_weaver>why does PID 1 need to know the DAG, and even if it's true, why is that a problem?

<mark_weaver>also, if we're serious about using DMD instead of systemd, I think that someone(TM) will have to get serious about making DMD kick ass in the ways that systemd does, e.g. things like service activations based on socket listeners, automounts, etc.

<civodul>well sure :-)

<civodul>socket activation doesn't sound too difficult

<civodul>the main issue being that currently dmd is purely dependency-driven

<mark_weaver>yeah, I suspect that none of it is difficult, but we need a champion :)

<civodul>yep :-)

<civodul>davexunit: i booted "your system", and i get a REPL prompt due to group "dave" not existing

<civodul>didn't you get that one?

<davexunit>no

<davexunit>just kernel panic :(

<civodul>uh

<davexunit>I'm reinstalling right now using the "users" group instead

<civodul>yes, it works as advertized with that change

<civodul>at least in the VM

<davexunit>civodul: okay thanks

<davexunit>hoping this goes well

<davexunit>not sure why I don't get a guile REPL

<davexunit>that would have allowed me to figure this out much sooner

<civodul>yes that's a problem

<civodul>might be related to the GRUB splash screen issue

<civodul>if the problem is that 'guix system init' didn't copy everything

<davexunit>hmmm

<civodul>though the boot script, which runs useradd & co., runs on the actual root fs

<civodul>where Guile is obviously available

<civodul>dunno

*civodul goes afk for a while

<davexunit>I'm not sure if I actually made it to this point

<davexunit>will find out soon

<davexunit>thanks civodul

<nully>mew

<davexunit>meow

<nully>i linked your your memorial

<nully>i'm really sorry i misse dyour going away party :/ family emergencies x.x :) yay

<davexunit>I understand. :)

<davexunit>it was a good time until 8pm rolled around and the bouncers kicked mattl out for wearing a hat.

<nully>LOLOLOLOL

<nully>sounds lik ea story

<davexunit>ask john about it sometime

<davexunit>we were pissed

<davexunit>complained a lot

<nully>i will :) durin gmy :1:1

<nully>awww

<nully>that sucks accually

<davexunit>mattl got the leader of the bouncers very mad

<nully>i mean they put up with a very drunk lisa lol

<nully>(nicos going away)

<nully>i'll have to ask matt about it

<nully>i hate bouncers

<nully>power trippers, worse than cops sometimes you know :)

<davexunit>yeah.

<davexunit>anywho...

<nully>its because they have less poewr

<nully>(so more angry)

<nully>but yeah, anywho

*davexunit hopes his guixsd install doesn't kernel panic this time

<nully>good luck :)

<davexunit>it boots!

<davexunit>but it launches window maker instead of xfce!

<mthl>better than a kernel panic ;-)

<freaj>Hi, can you recommend me some docs to install GSD in a VM? I have no experience with lisp/emacs/guix

<davexunit>freaj: I guess you would just get whatever VM software you use to boot our disk image and follow the installation instructions from there

<freaj>Okay!

<freaj>Is qemu-kvm okay for virt?

<nully>yes

<nully>i think most ppl here use kvm

<davexunit>yeah

<freaj>Okay I'll try it when I will be less lazy (it's good to be lazy)

<davexunit>civodul: slim launched window maker on first login even though it said it was using an xfce session. exiting window maker and logging in again then launched xfce.

<davexunit>I don't know why window maker was even installed in the first place.

<davexunit>I'll open a bug for it when I get email all setup again.

<davexunit>waiting for offlineimap to sync everything is a bear.

<davexunit>I think ncurses should be in base-packages or something...

<paroneayea>I'm thinking about getting one of those things (what do you call them?) that allow you to quickly switch between monitor/keyboard for different computers

<paroneayea>and get my old desktop runnin' guixsd

<civodul>davexunit: currently WindowMaker is the fallback session

<civodul>to actually get an Xfce session, you must make sure to have it in the global profile

<civodul>i think this is the case in desktop.tmpl

<davexunit>civodul: it's in my global profile.

<davexunit>I did nothing beyond logging in once, logging out, and logging back in to get xfce.

<davexunit>which is strange

<civodul>indeed

<davexunit>my laptop is almost ready to go. I'm fleshing out my manifest file so future installations are quicker to setup.

<civodul>normally the session name that is displayed is correct

<civodul>F1 to change it

<davexunit>yeah

<civodul>ok

<davexunit>pretty happy with my setup now :)

<civodul>you can always post all the issues that you had, so we can work on improving the UX™ :-)

<davexunit>yeah

<davexunit>when I have email again...

<davexunit>I will do that.

<civodul>heheh :-)

<davexunit>things are going pretty well now.

<davexunit>I wish I could choose "shut down" or "reboot" from the xfce user menu, and I'd like a GTK theme, but those are minor gripes.

<civodul>i learned it's possible to configure Xfce to use GTK's default theme

<civodul>from the "settings" menu or something like that

<civodul>not sure why "shut down" and "reboot" don't show up in the menu

<davexunit>"shut down" is there, but unclickable

<davexunit>presumably due to a permissions issue

<civodul>oh

<davexunit>not sure how to resolve

<civodul>maybe because your user is not member of "wheel"?

<davexunit>it is.

<civodul>actually it is

<civodul>yeah

<civodul>dunno

<davexunit>I need to find the config that controls this

<civodul>maybe polkit dbus something

<civodul>who knows ;-)

<davexunit>something like that, yeah.

<davexunit>hopefully someone that knows more than me will figure it out

<davexunit>;)

<civodul>:-)

<zacts>oh nice the binary installations are useful

<zacts>I don't have to track down bootstrap dependencies on arbitrary distros

<davexunit>civodul: I symlinked <gnome-themes-standard>/share/themes to $HOME/.themes and that made things prettier

<davexunit>now to figure out a less hacky way

<davexunit>adwaita looks nice :)

<davexunit>also, requesting help for webgl in icecat. it's killing me to not have it.

<daviid>davexunit: did you install guixsd on a laptop?

<davexunit>daviid: yup

<daviid>great! if you register step-by-step problems/solutins let me know please, I'm interested

<daviid>is it a laptop with propiretary bios or ...?

<davexunit>daviid: yeah, unfortunately.

<davexunit>the thinkpad x220 isn't libreboot capable.

<davexunit>and it probably never will be.

<daviid>i see, too bad but hey, guix guizsd, guile in general will/is changing this world

<daviid>*guixsd

<daviid>soon well have bios written in guile :)

<daviid>civodul: i assisted the presentation, i felt, with a bit of imagination, like facing genera [symbolics], really nice!

<DusXMT>I wonder, how did the few laptops that are libreboot capable achieve their status? Did the makers release their documentation, or did the hackers behind it reverse-engineer the given BIOSes?

<daviid>*Genera

<davexunit>DusXMT: reverse engineering

<daviid>is there a modern [pwerfull, fast] libreboot laptop ? maybe there is a list somewhere

<fchmmr>daviid, check http://libreboot.org/docs/tasks.html

<daviid>fchmmr: cheking, thanks

<davexunit>daviid: fchmmr is *the* libreboot person.

<fchmmr>the list of tasks, including ports of new boards, is listed there. tasks are also added/removed there as time goes on.

<daviid>oh congratulation fchmmr!

<fchmmr>daviid, congratulations, about what?

<fchmmr>what are you congratulating me for?

<daviid>about all this work you are doing

<fchmmr>oh

<fchmmr>well, there's a lot of work to do. it'll take at least a year to finish all of the tasks that are currently listed.

<fchmmr>and new tasks are added all the time.

<fchmmr>I also have a todo list for non-libreboot related tasks, which is not published.

<fchmmr>some of them span years

<fchmmr>"experiment with guix" is an example of an entry on that list.

<daviid>right, amasing wrk! like guix, guixsd ... who would have thought a while ago guile would turn itself at the center of all this ... amazing really! really cool, it's like getting out of decadent century :)

<DusXMT>fchmmr: reverse-engineering coreboot drivers probably isn't allowed... ?

<DusXMT>Or is it feasable?

<fchmmr>not allowed?

<fchmmr>and what do you mean when you say "coreboot drivers"?

<fchmmr>"reverse engineering" is legal in the EU, where I live.

<fchmmr>We don't have a thing like the DMCA here, for instance.

<DusXMT>Sorry if Isound confused, by that I mean blobs that make coreboot run on given boards

<fchmmr>ok

<fchmmr>People should RE whether they are allowed or not, anyway.

<fchmmr>They can release their findings anonymously, and then someone else can take their work and incorporate it.

<fchmmr>Bad laws should always be disobeyed, by everyone, without exception.

*DusXMT is also in the EU, he just wasn't sure about RE on the coreboot blobs

<fchmmr>DusXMT, the X200 being in libreboot is only possible because of RE.

<fchmmr>Removing the management engine for instance, was done by looking at lots of leaked stuff, and debugging intel's windows-only flash descriptor utility

<fchmmr>(it takes apart a BIOS image and tells you where all the regions are, lets you play with it, and so on)

<fchmmr>then based on that, a free (GPLv3 licensed) utility was written for removing the ME.

<fchmmr>(ich9deblob. see resources/utilities/ich9deblob/ in libreboot.git)

<DusXMT>I wonder... I know a bit about assembly, how difficult would it probably be to RE an old P3 system's bios and to add libreboot support? What kind of steps would I need to take?

<fchmmr>Most of the good things that you all use is the result of some kind of RE work.

<DusXMT>fchmmr: I don't judge RE

<fchmmr>DusXMT, you might be able to find "bios writers guides" for those old systems

<fchmmr>and of course, you look at datasheets/schematics

<fchmmr>DusXMT, I think coreboot already supports some old PIII systems.

<fchmmr>IMO, targeting those old systems isn't worth it, though.

<hwpplayer1>You're fixing what was wrong that's fair

<fchmmr>it's better to focus on current hardware, and try to get hardware actually assembled that is freedom respecting (that last part is a goal of libreboot. I want it to be pre-installed by OEMs in the future. I'm only 2% certain that this will occur, though)

<paroneayea>davexunit: I also posted to pump https://identi.ca/cwebber/note/XwrpTFdtRIKtLrLOMPSfYA but you might find https://www.fpcomplete.com/blog/2015/05/thousand-user-haskell-survey interesting

<paroneayea>for various reasons, but especially the package management stuff

<davexunit>paroneayea: haskell fans want to see more success stories before recommending it at their workplace, but there won't be success stories if they don't recommend it at their workplace.

<davexunit>it's weird that haskell package is *so* bad.

<davexunit>packaging*

<paroneayea>yeah

<ryuslash>hello everyone

<ryuslash>is it by any chance possible to install extra keymaps into Xorg now?

IRC channel logs

2015-05-23.log