IRC channel logs

<iyzsong>mark_weaver: it seem vte2 died for a long time, we need this patch? => https://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit/packages.git/tree/trunk/make_alt_work.patch?h=packages/vte

<iyzsong>of course, gnome-terminal is better :-)

<wingo>moin :)

<iyzsong>wingo: hi! how's gnome-terminal going?

*{0}grant is shocked how nice gnome-terminal is generally; He's been playing with it a bit, since he switched back to GNOME on/for his "pragmatic" computer.

<{0}grant>iyzsong: Is he attempting to package it for Guix?

<wingo>iyzsong: hi :)

<wingo>i have vte updates

<wingo>updated

<wingo>but gnome-terminal doesn't start

<wingo>it calls dbus to spawn a service

<wingo>but that service doesn't find what it needs and so aborts

<wingo>unhappily, the error log goes nowhere :/

<wingo>it could be that we have to patch the .service file or something to set XDG_DATA_DIRS for the service binary

<wingo>the libexec/gnome-terminal-foo thing

*{0}grant debates himself if it's worth building a disk-image from git, or waiting a week-or-so to install GSD on this attempt at a buildbox.

<{0}grant>waiting a week-or-so to install GSD 0.8.2*

<iyzsong>after install gnome-terminal into profile, restart xfce, the dbus user session should see the service files. (XDG_DATA_DIRS has ~/.guix-profile/share)

<iyzsong>what's the ExecStart in gnome-terminal's dbus services?

<iyzsong>{0}grant: I think, we'll get gnome-terminal soon from wingo ;-)

<iyzsong>{0}grant: GuixSD is a roll distro, after install, you can update as fast as the git repo.

<wingo>iyzsong: it execs /gnu/store/...-gnome-terminal-3.16.0/libexec/gnome-terminal-server

*{0}grant has been passively looking into packaging Weston at somepoint soonish and/or loliwm, just to see how trivial getting a Wayland compositor to work via GSD would be.

<wingo>but firstly it needs schemas from gsettings-desktop-schemas that i didn't add to my profile explicitly

<wingo>if i add them the process gets farther

<wingo>but i don't know why i have to add them

<wingo>the schemas are already listed as inputs

<{0}grant>iyzsong: Yeah, I guess I'm just "worrying" about updating from release, to git snapshot, to latest git checkout ... which I shouldn't, because I've done so before on a much-lower-powered box and it was fine both from a cpu-cycle and a general "experience" level.

<iyzsong>wingo: so, it's missing some schemas. do you use glib-or-gtk-build-system for gnome-terminal? If so, what is the 'XDG_DATA_DIRS' variable in gnome-terminal (a script wrapper).

<wingo>yes i use glib-or-gtk-build-system

<wingo>iyzsong: should the libexec/gnome-terminal-server be a wrapper too?

<wingo>maybe that is the problem

<wingo>it isn't a wrapper fwiw

<iyzsong>yes, I think so.

<wingo>maybe that's the solution then

<wingo>that would be nice

<wingo>i updated glib-or-gtk-build-system; fingers crossed

<wingo>woo hoo it works!!!

<wingo>that's great thank you iyzsong :)))

<iyzsong>great!

<zacts>hello guix

<wingo>finally getting nice -- gnome-terminal, emacs, nice fonts.

<wingo>now to fix my kernel/synaptics and i'll be happy

<zacts>wingo: which terminal font are you using?

<wingo>zacts: dejavu

<zacts>oh, yeah dejavu sans mono is nice

<zacts>I'm currently using Terminus font myself

<zacts>although, dejavu is nice on the eyes too

<wingo>i could try a different one now that i have a new laptop with more pixels

<wingo>used to be i had to choose based on hinting :/

<wingo>so what's the story about firmware packages? are they welcome in guix or no?

<zacts>wingo: do you mean like linux kernel firmware?

<wingo>yes

<wingo>for my iwlwifi

<zacts>I think guix will allow free firmware correct?

<zacts>like fsf's definition of free software

<wingo>so what's the place for evil firmware to live

<zacts>well, on other systems, I don't know for sure about guix, I put my firmware in /lib/firmware

<zacts>/lib/firmware/

<wingo>no such directory :)

<zacts>sudo mkdir -p /lib/firmware/

<zacts>perhaps?

<zacts>I don't know how guix does it

<zacts>usually though on most distros, that's where firmware lives

<zacts>you could try that though I guess

<zacts>and then reboot

<zacts>if it doesn't work, then sudo rm -rf /lib/firmware/ if that's all you have in it?

<iyzsong>oh, our xserver has synaptics module, but the 50-synaptics.conf is not included by xorg.conf, so it won't be loaded :(

<wingo>d'oh

<wingo>anyway i think synaptics needs a patch for this laptop

<wingo>wifi first so i don't have to be tethered, though...

*wingo does the evil thing and builds a mainline linux config

<iyzsong>yeah, I don't think this is the support way, I use my android phone as usb wifi :)

<civodul>Hello Guix!

<wingo>morning civodul :)

<civodul>hey, wingo!

<wingo>iyzsong and mark_weaver helped me get gnome-terminal working :)

<civodul>excellent :-)

<civodul>did it have the same issue as xfce-terminal?

<civodul>the meta/alt thing?

*wingo checks

<wingo>no it works fine

<civodul>great

<wingo>civodul: so i am looking to build a mainline linux package

<wingo>i.e. 4.0-rcN

<wingo>anything i should be aware of? i'm just going to make a branch, copy linux-libre to linux, and see what happens

<civodul>you can drop it in a file and set $GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH

<civodul>hopefully you just need to change the 'source' field

<civodul>the obvious issue is that it contains blobs

<wingo>is that a technical or philosophical issue?

<civodul>philosophical

<civodul>but that's your machine, what can i say ;-)

<wingo>yeah

<civodul>so you can use the 'inherit' keyword in such cases

<civodul>(package (inherit linux-libre) (source ...))

<wingo>interesting

*wingo tries

<wingo>civodul: i just dropped a file linux-nonfree.scm into gnu/packages

<wingo>but guix package says it can't find the package

<wingo>why would that be

<iyzsong>wingo: I don't know, but I find out that './pre-inst-env guile linux-nonfree.scm' will give a backtrace if something wrong.

<wingo>iyzsong: indeed

<wingo>thanks

<wingo>neat

***boegel|afk is now known as boegel

<wingo>it's building, yay

<wingo>build all the modules!

*wingo biab

<civodul>wingo: alternately, you can put that file in another dir, and add that dir to $GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH

<civodul>that's the way to make a Personal Package Archive™

<civodul>oh, following child processes via FDs: http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/638613/41da760bec8dc1ab/

<civodul>i've been dreaming of that for dmd, rather than the SIGCHLD handler

<civodul>mark_weaver: should we get in touch with Imagination? :-) http://lwn.net/Articles/638241/

<wingo>neat, the kernel just built with no problems

<civodul>yay!

<civodul>now you can adjust your OS config file, and try to boot the kernel with 'guix system vm'

<wingo>wow

<civodul>(to avoid bad surprises)

<wingo>i didn't realize you could try that

<wingo>neat :)

<civodul>that's handy :-)

<wingo>ok stupid question :) how do i run the vm?

<wingo>ah it prints it out

<wingo>i guess it got lost in all the printouts

<wingo>but if i run it again it's the only line

<wingo>so what should happen? i get a repl and an error that load-linux-module had an exec format error

<wingo>also a gc warning about not being able to read /proc/stat

<wingo>could it be in any way related to the 4.0 version bump?

<wingo>civodul: ^

<wingo>that libahci disagrees about version of symbol module_layout

<civodul>/proc/stat is not a problem

<civodul>presumably it's loading the wrong modules or something?

*civodul checks

<civodul>oh, i seee

<civodul>wingo: 'base-initrd' has a hard-coded "linux-libre" in it, from which it takes the .ko

<wingo>ah

<wingo>i'll have to derive that one too then

<civodul>so you need to add a #:kernel argument to that procedure

<wingo>ok

<civodul>and then you can use #:kernel my-kernel in your config's 'initrd' field

<civodul>i have to rush again but i'll be back later this afternoon

<wingo>yay guix system vm works now

<wingo>had to change a couple other things

<wingo>whee, running linux 4.0-rc6

<wingo>how should i package something that just has a make install target

<wingo>?

<wingo>i will need to set FIRMWARE_DIR to the right place

<wingo>so what's wrong with the ca certificate set that it doesn't include the startcom cert?

<wingo>doesn't work for important sites such as git.kernel.org

<wingo>though icecat does work

<wingo>wget etc don't.

<taylanub>wingo: I guess removing the configure, build, and check phases should do when there's only an install phase

<wingo>also important sites like wingolog.org :P

<taylanub>s/install phase/install target/

<davexunit>hey folks

<jxself>It's morning already?

<bavier>hey davexunit

<davexunit>who has their guixsd config publicly available?

<davexunit>I'd like to spruce mine up a bit

<davexunit>hey bavier

<wingo>you don't want to learn from mine, yo

<davexunit>jxself: heh, yup

<davexunit>today is a work-from-home day for me, so I take this opportunity to update my guixsd machine

<wingo>though, i do have linux 4.0 running there :)

<davexunit>cool!

<davexunit>how easy was it to use a new kernel?

<wingo>not bad

<wingo>there were a couple bugs to fix that i haven't submitted yet

<wingo>but it's quite nice to be able to try via "guix system vm config.scm"

<wingo>once the bugs are fixed it's easy-peasy

<davexunit>yes, it's great

<jxself>The blobs are tasty?

<davexunit>guix takes a lot of the fear away from trying new things

<wingo>hehe

<wingo>yeah

<wingo>currently packaging the iwlwifi blobs :/

*wingo terrible person

*davexunit needs to buy a kvm switch or something

<davexunit>I have my desktop, novena, and laptop dock that I'd like to be able to easily switch between

<bavier>davexunit: have you tried using synergy?

<davexunit>no

<wingo>i use synergy

<wingo>works great but the security is terrible

<davexunit>I'd feel more comfortable with real hardware, but maybe that's silly

<wingo>davexunit: try synergy first :)

<bavier>I packaged it during the last hackathon, but haven't had a change to try it yet :P

<bavier>*chance

<wingo>you just run synergys on the server

<wingo>then synergyc your-server.local

<wingo>where server == thing you have mouse and kb connected to

<wingo>(to be clear, you run synergyc on "clients")

<bavier>wingo: have you used the synergy from Guix yet?

<davexunit>got it

<wingo>bavier: not yet

*wingo grumbles about nss-mdns not being enabled by default

*davexunit wonders if webgl works in icecat now

<davexunit>or if minetest will use opengl, or if anyone will actually work with opengl for that matter

*wingo will at least use a gl compositing wm, eventually

<davexunit>I haven't used the distro proper in awhile, so I'm eager to see if such things have been improved

<davexunit>I should use the distro more.

<davexunit>I wish I could get PHP packaged so I could run certain web applications

<davexunit>but it's been a bear

<davexunit>oh yeah, ice cat updated and changed where it looks for settings

<davexunit>what directory do I have to move?

*davexunit hunts

<davexunit>got it

<davexunit>.mozilla -> .gnu

<davexunit>still no webgl support

<davexunit>ugh

<davexunit>wingo: did you end up fixing the tramp error where it can't find ls?

<wingo>davexunit: nope

<wingo>i think the answer there will be openssh-daemon

<davexunit>it fails for me when doing tramp locally

<davexunit>/sudo:localhost

<davexunit>seems to be a load path issue

<wingo>davexunit: do you know about symlinks?

<davexunit>what about them?

<wingo>i have a package that populates lib/firmware in its own dir

<wingo>i should be symlinking those into the kernel's lib/firmware

<wingo>i think

<wingo>how does that happen?

<davexunit>when you say "in its own dir", do you mean in /gnu/store/... ?

<wingo>yes, in its output dir in /gnu/store

<davexunit>that seems correct to me

<davexunit>when you install it to a profile, it will end up in profile-root/lib/firmware

<wingo>i need to add things to /run/$system/kernel/lib/firmware

<wingo>for some value of $system

<davexunit>oh, so the issue is that it should be /kernel/lib/firmware, not /lib/firmware ?

<wingo>no

<davexunit>oh

<davexunit>sorry

<wingo>the issue is that it is installing to its own output dir

<davexunit>that part is correct

<wingo>not the lib/firmware corresponding to some profile

<wingo>right

<wingo>i thought it would be fine, but there is a step i am missing to symlink it to the profile's kernel/lib/firmware

<davexunit>if you add that package to your OS config and reconfigure, does it not do the right thing?

<wingo>hmm, good question

<wingo>that would be magical if so

<davexunit>guix will perform a union of those dirs

<davexunit>and symlink everything

*wingo gives it a go

<davexunit>every package in guix gets its own little root dir in /gnu/store, and then when you install packages to a profile it all gets unioned together with symlinks

<davexunit>I'm having a hard time getting FUSE to work

<davexunit>'sudo modprobe fuse' outputs nothing

<davexunit>and 'lsmod | grep fuse' outputs nothing

<davexunit>so sshfs doesn't work :(

<_`_>it's built as a module?

<wingo>i don't understand how but the firmware modules are not being put in the right place

<wingo>in the image

<davexunit>do you know where they end up?

<wingo>yes

<wingo>maybe i need to be installing them in some other dir tho

<{[]}grant>Okay, neato, GSD on all but my "main" or at leasd somewhat 'practical' box! :^)

<wingo>nice :)

<_`_>davexunit: nothing in /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/kernel/fs/fuse/fuse* ?

<bavier>{[]}grant: cool!

<{[]}grant>Also, wingo, nice seeing you in/on this front generally. :^)

<davexunit>_`_: it worked if I ran 'sudo -i; modprobe fuse'

<davexunit>but simply 'sudo modprobe fuse' did nothing

<_`_>oh, that's curious

<davexunit>wingo: yeah, perhaps they aren't installed to the proper place for the union to work its magic?

<{[]}grant>I need to assure that buildbox autoconnects to eth0, it's port is forwarded out, and I'm not sure whatelse.

<{[]}grant>Not sure how useful such a thing would be though, upload speed is so-so here.

<ijp>b

<wingo>davexunit: it's working actually!

<wingo>interestingly firmware isn't taken from the kernel/lib/firmware dir for the current kernel

<wingo>but from a separate path that was built when the os was configured

<wingo>guix's startup script explicitly initializes the kernel with that path

<{[]}grant>Yeah, just checked the claimed upload speed here and it's only ~5 MB/s.

<wingo>it's in /sys/module/firmware_class/parameters/path

<wingo>and indeed the firmware shows up there

<wingo>wifi here i come!

<wingo>{[]}grant: heh, always been on my list, the new machine is an excuse to take the plunge tho :)

<{[]}grant>wingo: :^)

<{[]}grant>wingo: I'm on the other-side-of-the-fence often on that front; Overly "headfirst" into things to the point of near-if-not-recklessness. :^U

*{[]}grant has been trying to work on that.

<wingo>:)

<davexunit>wingo: is what you're talking due to the difference between the running system and the booted system?

<wingo>wifi works. that's a delight.

<{[]}grant>Oh, that's 'real neat'... evidently the only real semi-viable option (what we have)'s upload speed is about 1/2 the national average.

<davexunit>I was inspecting $LINUX_MODULE_DIRECTORY

<wingo>davexunit: no, because i was testing within the "guix system vm" fresh vm

<davexunit>and it points to the booted system

<davexunit>wingo: oh okay

<davexunit>cool that wifi works :)

<davexunit>I haven't yet tried it

<wingo>how does one "traceroute" on a guix system?

<wingo>nothing came up in my search

<davexunit>wingo: 'guix package -i inetutils'

<davexunit>I ran 'sudo find /gnu/store -name traceroute'

<{[]}grant>davexunit: Is there any more documentation about proper procedure and/or anything else regarding setting up a 'buildbox' for Guix besides what was recenctly added to the site/announced on the mailing list?

<davexunit>{[]}grant: not sure. I haven't been involved in that side of things.

<davexunit>you've probably found all the docs, though.

<davexunit>wingo: searching the store is handy in the case when the tool you're after may have already been installed by something else :)

<{[]}grant>I guess I'll poke around a bit, and maybe make an attempt to ask mark_weaver and/or civodul when they are online/around somepoint this weekend. My soft goal is to get the system online/about by the 15th, my more strongarmed 'I really want it online' goal is the end of the month -- so I have awhile, to mess about I suppose.

<{[]}grant>I'm already way ahead of schedule, than planned prior.

<{[]}grant>then*

<davexunit>wingo: awesome gnome-terminal patch :)

<davexunit>that's my terminal emulator of choice

<davexunit>will be nice to have it

<{[]}grant>Okay, going afk for a bit. Nap, then 'Good Friday Fish-Fry' later; Be on either tonight or tomorrow, with probable questions to the relevant individuals regarding said buildbox. o/

*{[]}grant is afk.

<wingo>can someone paste me their nss config?

<wingo>with mdns

<wingo>the one in the manual does not work for me

<wingo>says "hosts" is unbound

<davexunit>I have never configured that, sorry.

<wingo>or must i (name-service-switch (name-service-switch ...))

<wingo>that would be silly

<wingo>that appears to be the case

<davexunit>hmm, having ntpd problems

<wingo>i fixed the nss config but i still can't resolve local hosts

<wingo>weird

<wingo>avahi is logging that it is receiving packets from invalid interfaces

<wingo>i have a wired and a wireless interface

<wingo>greets civodul

<wingo>civodul: i have a wired and an unwired interface and am using wicd. avahi is installed and i can ping my-laptop.local from the network. i did the nsswitch thing in my config,

<wingo>but i can't ping my-desktop.local from the laptop

<wingo>does this ring a bell?

<civodul>it may be that something's wrong with the NSS thing

<civodul>does "avahi-resolve -n my-desktop.local" work on the laptop?

*wingo checks

<wingo>yes it gives an ipv6 address

<civodul>ok

<civodul>hmm

<wingo>the hosts: line in my /etc/nsswitch.conf is:

<wingo>files mdns_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns mdns

<civodul>looks good

<wingo>maybe the shared object isn't available to libc or something

<civodul>can you check whether libnss-mdns is in nscd's /proc/xx/smaps?

*wingo looks

<wingo>civodul: it is not

<civodul>can you try "deco restart nscd" and see if it makes a difference?

<civodul>also, is there anything in /var/log/nscd.log?

<wingo>no effect

<wingo>nothing in /var/log/nscd.log

<civodul>could you copy/paste nscd's /proc/xx/cmdline

<civodul>then "deco stop nscd"

<civodul>then copy /gnu/store/...-nscd.conf

<civodul>increase the debug level

<civodul>and manually run "sudo nscd -f my-nscd.conf"

<civodul>(sorry this is becoming painful!)

<wingo>np

*wingo tries

<wingo>i increased debug to 4

<wingo>but no mention of mdns

<wingo>or of nsswitch.conf, for that matter

<davexunit>does anyone have a work ssh key agent on guixsd?

<civodul>davexunit: i use gpg-agent --daemon --enable-ssh-support

<civodul>wingo: and if you strace it?

<civodul>does it access nsswitch.conf and load libnss-mdns?

<davexunit>civodul: thanks

<davexunit>does ssh stuff "just work" with that?

<civodul>you also need to have pinetry installed

<civodul>to get the GTK+ dialog box for passphrases

<davexunit>thanks

<davexunit>hmmmm

<davexunit>libGL error: unable to load driver: nouveau_dri.so

<davexunit>libGL error: driver pointer missing

<davexunit>libGL error: failed to load driver: nouveau

<davexunit>wonder what I need to make this work...

<civodul>maybe adding xf86-*nouveau/lib to LD_LIBRARY_PATH?

<civodul>something like that

<davexunit>I'll try

<wingo>it does open /etc/nsswitch.conf

<wingo>civodul: it fails to open libnss_mdns_minimal

<wingo>it's looking in the glibc store

<wingo> /gnu/store/...-glibc-2.21/lib/libnss_foo

<wingo>it finds the other ones

<civodul>oh but the real nscd service actually runs with LD_LIBRARY_PATH set

<civodul>so that it can find it

*wingo grumble

<wingo>it seems i don't have any such file

<wingo>am i missing a package? i just configured the name-switch-server or whatever section of the os config

<wingo>i guess i am missing a package.

*wingo retries, adding nss-mdns to packages

<wingo>i am thinking the default nsswitch.conf should include mdns

<wingo>and whether the user has mdns or not should be a function of installing the package or not

<wingo>dunno tho

<civodul>nscd-service must be called with #:name-services (list nss-mdns)

<civodul>see https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2015-02/msg00109.html

<civodul>yeah

<wingo>ooook

<civodul>not sure if that is possible; nscd might just bork when libnss_xxx is missing

<wingo>actually nscd was fine

<wingo>that's precisely the situation i was in

<wingo>nscd configured to use mdns, but no mdns lib available

<civodul>ok

<civodul>yeah that sucks

<civodul>i think we can actually get rid of this #:name-services thing

<civodul>i'll try that

<davexunit>hmm, nouveau_dri.so isn't in our mesa package

<davexunit>that explains the problem

<davexunit>but how to get it in...

<wingo>civodul: if you try that then i will punt on this for now then

<civodul>wingo: ok, will do

<civodul>sorry for the dog food, and thanks for persevering!

<wingo>it's pretty ok actually

<wingo>thank you for guix :)

<wingo> http://paste.lisp.org/display/146762 <- packages for mainline linux and some firmware things

<wingo>if anyone needs linux firmware things, point them there

<davexunit>I don't think we can really point people in that direction.

<civodul>yeah, that's opposite to the project's goals

<davexunit>you certainly got the grasp of packaging very quickly, though.

<wingo>dunno yo, it was either not use guix or do that, for me

<wingo>i'm sure i'm not the only person in that position

<davexunit>understood, but we'd be comprimising our stance as a fully free distro.

<wingo>i think guix does great by promoting linux-libre as the default

*civodul advertises https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-n-usb-adapter-gnu-linux-tpe-n150usb

<davexunit>I imagine that if guix becomes popular enough, someone on the internet will maintain a git repo with nonfree stuff, but we certainly wouldn't want to advertise it.

<wingo>i would hope that if they came in here asking for it though that you wouldn't make them discover the joys of packaging all over again

<wingo>or perhaps i am not the first :/

<davexunit>you're the first person I've seen to have done that

<civodul>yes

<davexunit>if people want to install nonfree stuff, it's their choice, of course, but we just can't take part in the process.

<civodul>yeah i don't think there's anything surprising here

<civodul>"this is part of our DNA", in journalist newspeak ;-)

<wingo>well. as you like.

<wingo>guix has attractions and practical freedom is one of them, as opposed to debian.

<davexunit>yes.

<wingo>but there are others

<wingo>and so there will be people interested in guix that have made different choices.

<wingo>frankly i am feeling a bit unwelcomed at the moment, over firmware of all things.

<wingo>anyway.

<civodul>unwelcomed?

<davexunit>:( we don't you to feel unwelcomed

<civodul>doesn't sound nice to those who've been helping out here

<civodul>so no, you're not unwelcome

<davexunit>don't want*

<mark_weaver>wingo: the OS config has a 'firmware' field, which is a list of packages to merge together to put into the /run/$system/kernel/lib/firmware

<wingo>mark_weaver: yes, i have everything working now

<wingo>i think

<mark_weaver>wingo: I for one very much appreciate your presence here, and thanks for gnome-terminal!

<wingo>thank you!

<mark_weaver>:)

<civodul>i've never seen someone before who was both a first-time user *and* a power user :-)

<wingo>yeah sorry for being irritated there. i just felt like i was being lectured to somehow, or made to feel like not "one of us". but i'll deal :)

<civodul>wingo: sorry if that came out that way

<mark_weaver>we need to keep upstream guix free according to the GNU FSDG, but of course one of the goals of guix is that you can easily customize any aspect of the system

<civodul>that was not my intention

<davexunit>yeah, sorry as well.

<wingo>no problem, and apologies again on my part

<wingo>moving on :)

<mark_weaver>:)

<wingo>do your screen brightness buttons work in xfce?

<wingo>mine do not

<wingo>the keycode comes through but nothing happens

<wingo>i think that's something that gnome-settings-daemon handles in the gnome world

<wingo>but maybe my xfce setup is borked in other ways (for example, no gsettings backend...)

<davexunit>I haven't figured out stuff like that either

<mark_weaver>My Libreboot X60 handles the brightness keys in libreboot itself (not ideal, but a temporary situation), so I haven't actually tested that aspect of XFCE myself.

<davexunit>I did just get MPD setup, though, so I can have music now :)

<wingo>:)

<davexunit>works great!

<davexunit>eventually, I would like to run dmd as an unprivileged user for managing daemons like this

<davexunit>and emacs-daemon

<davexunit>hmm, no sound in icecat

<wingo>i can change brightness by mucking about in /sys

<wingo>but that's trash :)

<davexunit>heh

<wingo>so peoples

<wingo>how about the ca certificates

<wingo>i can't download from download.gnome.org

<wingo>nor kernel.org

<wingo>etc

<wingo>because some certs appear to not be in the store

<wingo>what is up with that?

<davexunit>mark_weaver: ^

<wingo>this is with wget btw

<wingo>with icecat i have no problem

<davexunit>icecat has it baked in somehow

<mark_weaver>wingo: 'nss-certs' should be in the packages field of your OS config

*davexunit adds to his

<mark_weaver>if you do that and then run "guix system reconfigure <osconfig>", then it should be set. no need to reboot

<wingo>ok

<mark_weaver> /etc/ssl should be a symlink to /run/current-system/profile/etc/ssl

*wingo checks

<mark_weaver>if nss-certs is in your system profile, then /run/current-system/profile/etc/ssl should be populated

*davexunit thinks we need better user profile management tools, for setting up multiple systems with the same profiles

<mark_weaver>yes

<mark_weaver>maybe a way to 'export' the set of packages in your profile, such that they can be imported on another system, or something.

<mark_weaver>similar to dpkg get-selections / set-selections, or whatever it's called

<wingo>mark_weaver: i have to use the gnuzilla module or something to get those?

<mark_weaver>wingo: to get what?

<wingo>nss-certs

<mark_weaver>oh, yes, that's right

<davexunit>yeah

<mark_weaver>oh, sorry.

<wingo>np

<mark_weaver>it's in (gnu packages certs)

<mark_weaver>so add 'certs' to your 'use-package-modules' form

<wingo>ah ok

<wingo>tx

<davexunit>'guix package -A nss-certs' tells me it's in (gnu packages gnuzilla)

<wingo>guix package -A nss-certs was saying it was in gnuzilla.scm

<wingo>right

<wingo>but that was wrong

<wingo>anyway, tx

*davexunit scratches head

<wingo>yay my wobsite works again

<mark_weaver>oh, right

<mark_weaver>it's because the 'nss-certs' package in certs.scm inherits from 'nss', which is in gnuzilla.scm

<davexunit>ohhhh

<mark_weaver>and when you inherit, by default it also inherits the source location field.

<wingo>yow

<davexunit>do we have a bug filed for that?

<mark_weaver>we have a way to hack around that, but we need a better solution

<mark_weaver>the hack is to add (location (source-properties->location (current-source-location))) to the nss-certs package

<mark_weaver>lots to do :)

<mark_weaver>davexunit: dunno, but if not, one should be files

<mark_weaver>*filed

<davexunit>would it be sensible to add nss-certs to %base-packages, or would that be too much?

<mark_weaver>davexunit: that turns out to be slightly controversial.

<paroneayea>that seems wise given current state of the universe

<mark_weaver>andreas says no

<paroneayea>mark_weaver: because we all hate CAs, but CAs are what the world runs on? :)

<mark_weaver>the thing is, not everyone wants to trust that entire set of CAs

<mark_weaver>so it would be good to have an easy way to trust a different (smaller) set

<mark_weaver>I think maybe a better solution would be to have a separate OS field that specifies a list of CA packages to trust

<civodul>mark_weaver: i thought you were the one who said no? :-)

<mark_weaver>and it would default to (list nss-certs)

<mark_weaver>but then it would be easy to override it with something that didn't contain 'nss-certs'

<davexunit>mark_weaver: ah, I see.

<mark_weaver>civodul: I am sympathetic to andreas on this

<davexunit>thanks for the explanation

<wingo>is there a trick to running powertop?

<wingo>i installed it but nothing can find it.

<davexunit>pray

<mark_weaver>basically, I agree that we should have nss-certs by default, _but_ I'd like an easy to way remove it.

***boegel is now known as boegel|afk

<mark_weaver>wingo: what can't find it?

<davexunit>wingo: let me try installing it

<mark_weaver>how did you install it?

<wingo>guix package -i powertop

<mark_weaver>I use it to do "powertop --auto-tune" at boot time, which makes my Libreboot X60 much quieter

<wingo>as user with pre-inst guix and as root without

<davexunit>wingo: ohhhh it's in /sbin

<davexunit>which is not on the $PATH

<davexunit>/gnu/store/rfg7s7v70yd8aizq17mdwq0mscpmjlfd-powertop-2.5/sbin/powertop

<mark_weaver>oh, interesting. we add /run/current-system/profile/sbin to PATH by default, but not $HOME/.guix-profile/sbin

<mark_weaver>I think that's an oversight.

<mark_weaver>(this is in /etc/profile)

<wingo>and then it fails for me. maybe because i am running mainline; i don't know

<wingo>if i run it direct from ~/.../sbin

<mark_weaver>which is built by 'etc-directory' in gnu/system.scm

<davexunit>fails for me, too

<wingo>something about an unknown op

<mark_weaver>does it have to be setuid?

<mark_weaver>I've only tried running it as root

<davexunit>I ran with sudo

<wingo>mark_weaver: i was running via sudo

<mark_weaver>maybe try running it with strace?

<davexunit>I've grown to like using ratpoison in the absence of GNOME

<davexunit>if only guile-wm had a liiittle bit more polish...

<wingo>so gudev is part of systemd now

<wingo>chuckles

<davexunit>that's different than udev?

<wingo>i think so

<davexunit>oh

<davexunit>sigh

<davexunit>we already use eudev from the gentoo folks because udev is part of systemd

<davexunit>I *really* don't want to sound like one of those annoying systemd haters, but...

<davexunit>it's getting a bit frustrating.

<freaj>davexunit: I'll ask if we can get a systemd-guixd

<wingo>i guess gudev could be packaged with eudev

<davexunit>I hope that the GSoC projects for the systemd compatibility in dmd goes somewhere

<mark_weaver>I wonder how the gentoo folks deal with gudev

<davexunit>I hear that gentoo has systemd packaged and a good number of people use it

<davexunit>so I wonder how sustainable eudev will be

<mark_weaver>sure, but they don't require it

<davexunit>yeah

<wingo>looks like we could have gnome-settings-daemon if we had gudev and upower

<wingo>and maybe colord

<mark_weaver>it would be a tremendous contribution to work on these things. I know that several of us would love to run GNOME again.

<davexunit>yeah

<davexunit>I know I would

<davexunit>I wish we could catch the interest of some GNOME hackers

<davexunit>but they are mostly red hat/fedora folks

<paroneayea>that would be great to get some gnome folks trying guix, yeah

<mark_weaver>wingo: btw, I agree with all the comments that iyzsong made about your gnome-terminal commit

<davexunit>I'm not very optimistic, though.

<davexunit>GNOME is trying to make their own distro and packaging system, last I heard.

<mark_weaver>yeah, I wouldn't count on it

<mark_weaver>it's okay, we can learn :)

<davexunit>yeah :)

<mark_weaver>I'd like to understand GNOME internals better anyway

<nully>that makes at least two of us here

<nully>=P

<_`_>mark_weaver: https://github.com/gentoo/eudev/tree/master/src/gudev it's there

<mark_weaver>_`_: ah, thanks!

<mark_weaver>wingo: ^^

<wingo>ah thanks!

<mark_weaver>I have to go afk for several hours. happy hacking, all!

<wingo>how can i get my system in a state where i can usefully develop non-guix things? :)

<wingo>right now ./configure in anything fails

<wingo>because of missing crt1.o things

<wingo>i guess those are libgcc-related? libc? /me can't tell

<davexunit>wingo: I assume you have gcc and such installed?

<davexunit>may I ask what software you are trying to build?

<wingo>i was going to have a poke at upower

<wingo>i installed gcc-toolchain

<wingo>which i think is what mark told me to install

<wingo>but not gcc

<wingo>maybe i need that too?

<wingo>right now configure fails very early :)

<davexunit>does 'which gcc' return something?

<wingo>yep

<wingo>in my profile

<wingo>anyway, out for a bit

<wingo>ciao :)

<davexunit>see ya wingo

***boegel|afk is now known as boegel

<{[]}grant>davexunit: Checking the backlog, and yeah GNOME for sometime was planning an independent distro ... not sure if such a thing has dispersed to other things.

<{[]}grant>We have a number of issuses on our end, that while I would love Guix to be the basis and/or be able to host such a thing to some capacity ... while the systemd dependence is probably something that can be solved via some means or another (I've heard that consolekit has actually gotten some activity recently) -- I would think a bigger roadblock might be a guix interface being needed for 'packagekit'. I'm sure there are other blemishes

<{[]}grant>big and small here though, generally, but yeah.

<{[]}grant>Also the way in-which they have invested in sandboxing, it doesn't seem like it would be generally interfaceable if-so, not cleanly into Guix, with the little I'm aware/know (which ain't much).

<civodul>sneek: later tell wingo re gcc, you need to install "gcc-toolchain" instead of "gcc"

<sneek>Got it.

<davexunit>{[]}grant: the packagekit maintainers were not interested in accomodating package managers like guix.

<{[]}grant>civodul: I'm about to leave to a fish-fry, but just to let you know, I'm able to donate a buildbox. Don't know if my upload speed of ~5 mb/s is too slow though. It's evidently half of the US averagee by some metrics I've seen./

<{[]}grant>davexunit: Have we ever talked to the *BSD folk with combining their efforts? Not sure how tied such a thing is to that realm though.

<{[]}grant>systembsd iirc, being the name of the big one/effort right now. :^P

<{[]}grant>I guess we would ideally want an implementation of such a thing in/around Guile though, so that's not something obviously that works to that effect.

<davexunit>I just want applications to not be concerned about which init system is managing them

<{[]}grant>davexunit: True, a noble wish ... but one, that's sadly and odly not as easy to come by as one would hope in freaking 2015.

<_`_>well systemd is much more than just init(8)

<davexunit>...and therein lies the problem :)

<_`_>indeed

<{[]}grant>You know, as davexunit eluded to ... I really didn't mind SystemD until the whole co-opting/gobbling of Udev happened.

<_`_>which they want to eventually move elsewhere anyways

<davexunit>the tight coupling of such components makes life hard for the little guy, like dmd.

<{[]}grant>That was the moment of, for me, of notable concern. All and all though, if you are commited to /just/ using Linux ... it's really a pretty decent environment from what I've seen/played with it. My issue is the issue others don't take with such an effort. I completely understand that Redhat is funding Systemd and GNOME largely and that they are going in this direction ... but the amount (or rather lack thereof) of outcry, is yes, makin

<{[]}grant>is too hard for the 'little guy' dmd or otherwise.

<{[]}grant>Does OpenRC even support GNOME currently?

<_`_>the issue isn't init, it's what controls the login session as you mentioned earlier

<{[]}grant>_`_: Which is part of systemd?

<davexunit>it's a damn fast init system, at least.

<{[]}grant>logind, iirc.

<_`_>on gentoo they just said “if you want gnome, take systemd with it”

<davexunit>we will be adding some shim layer, when someone gets around to taking it on.

<davexunit>that implements the API calls that GNOME makes

<_`_>on funtoo (a derivative) a recent version of gnome (I think) was made to work with consolekit

<_`_>so systemd isn't required

<_`_>{[]}grant: yeah logind, is the login session manager on systemd.

<davexunit>that's good to hear

<davexunit>all is not lost.

<{[]}grant>In any case, I hope it's a solveable issue amongst the other GNOME related issuses to allow GSD to offer a competitive Desktop running GNOME 3.x -- in a way that I can eventually in good-conscience reccomend it to new GNU+Linux users over Fedora.

<davexunit>it will happen

<davexunit>so many of us want our GNOME desktop back

<davexunit>(though I quite like the brutal minimalism of ratpoison)

<_`_>I think what's done with what I mentioned doesn't work (yet) with Wayland.

<{[]}grant>I am quite surprissed and generally impressed how far GNOME has moved in 3-4 release cycles, to something that I would honestly say is probably the nicest general end-user interface for GNU+Linux outthere. It hits a very nice middleground of newbie friendly to those who are sufficently somefactor of "poweruser".

<davexunit>I consider myself in the "power user" category, and I find GNOME 3 very efficient

<davexunit>I never understood all the hate

<{[]}grant>davexunit: It was /very/ different than GNOME2, and they saw GNOME3 as basically throwing away an environment people were used to and somefactor of "copying Apple".

<_`_>people are just attached to what they liked, yeah.

<{[]}grant>I mean, I fully understood the hate ... it was /way/ thrown out of proportion, for far, far too long. There were people who were complaining 2 years in.

<davexunit>there's a good bit of Apple copying, but the OS X desktop *sucks*

<davexunit>used it for 2 years at my last job

<davexunit>absolutely terrible

<civodul>{[]}grant: low bandwidth could be a problem, yes :-/

<davexunit>I couldn't believe that people raved about it so much

<{[]}grant>civodul: My issuse is, not only is this the /best/ my area has ... I don't even know what the minimum expected average is/should be for upload per-second.

<{[]}grant>issue*

<{[]}grant>The only other ISP we have here, is 2 mb/s upload.

<civodul>yeah

<{[]}grant>I mean, next spring I'll be back at a proper uni ... so maybe I could get it running there and/or talk to a lab for some hosting rights/privs, but that's so far out at this point ... it's not even worth worrying about on my end.

<_`_>the main hurdle with gnome on non systemd is probably just the session management though, the only other systemd related hurdle might be communicating with kdbus when it's adopted at a large scale.

<{[]}grant>civodul: I mean, do we know a decent "expected up/down average" for bandwidth on buildboxs? If we could figure that, that might be a decent thing to add to that #donations page -- as to not get others buggering y'all with the endresult being a non-applicable box.

<_`_> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html a bit rude

<{[]}grant>_`_: I would say generally unprofessional.

<civodul>{[]}grant: i haven't thought about actual figures; the worst case is transfering TeX Live, which is ~3G

<civodul>you don't want that to take too long

<{[]}grant>civodul: I mean, it's a realtively stable connection ... but yeah, that's probably sometime to actually get/make available.

<{[]}grant>on Hydra or wherever.*

<{[]}grant>civodul: I mean, is this something in all honesty you think I should continue to persue or to just repurpose that box as generally a personal devel box?

<{[]}grant>I'll stay online, but my dad is back with the fish-fry, heading over to my Grandfather's for a bit. Peace peeps. o/

*{[]}grant is afk.

<civodul>{[]}grant: it's a nice offer, but yeah, if bandwidth is too low this is not going to work for our purposes

<civodul>thanks anyway!

<civodul>yeah we should clarify #donations on that matter

<davexunit>hmm, I think I see why I'm having a mesa issue

<davexunit>the --with-dri-drivers=nouveau flag isn't passed on i686 or x86_64

<davexunit>wtf

<davexunit>oh, well maybe I'm reading it wrong

<davexunit>I guess nouveau is there by default...

<davexunit>but the dri driver isn't there...

<davexunit>master is broken