IRC channel logs

<davexunit>taylanub: that's the flag where any warning is considered an error right?

<jgrant>paroneayea: I'm not sure that it is, but it would come to reason that it may be there.

<taylanub>I guess I should explain a little further then: "Compilation uses -Werror by default, but this makes it fail."

<sirgazil>paroneayea: I haven't pushed the SVGs to any public repo yet.

<davexunit>taylanub: yeah, that's fine.

<paroneayea>sirgazil: ah :)

<paroneayea>well, they do look great! :)

<paroneayea>imo !

<sirgazil>Glad people like them :)

<jgrant>sirgazil: :^)

<sirgazil>jgrant: the GSD logo is drawn using a cubic bar of plasticine as reference. I also tried with a ribbon, but the horns looked more like a ram.

<taylanub>sirgazil: I'd believe it if someone told me the logos belong to world-renowned brands :) I'm torn between "don't do any non-GNU branding" and "this would hugely help GuixSD's popularity"

<jgrant>sirgazil: Ah, okay.

<jgrant>Well, if I wasn't told (I would obviously because as shown) would still think it's Ribbon. :^) In any case, very nice, clean, and professional looking.

<davexunit>I'm all for displaying the logo on things

<davexunit>like the slim login screen

<civodul>i must say i really like them both

<civodul>it's great to have talented people around :-)

<davexunit>finally some talented people around here ;)

<paroneayea>hope for us yet, davexunit ??? :)

<civodul>at last! :-)

<civodul>oh, sirgazil

*civodul makes the connection

*paroneayea would love to see more improved-branding stuff for the guile world, much of gnu generally

<civodul>yup, there's room for improvement in the project

*sirgazil agrees with paroneayea

*civodul -> zZz

<civodul>good night/day!

<jxself>Seeing Freedo on boot isn't enough branding? :)

*sirgazil would like to see GNU and Savannah graphic design improved.

<davexunit>a fancy new guile logo would be cool ;)

<taylanub>I recently noticed dyne:bolic has quite the neat homepage, with only the screenshots sticking out like sore thumbs. I wonder if GNU might benefit from simply a revamped free-distros page which more tightly integrates with well-designed distro homepages/logos. maybe the way to win against "Linux distro" culture is not to move to central GNU-only branding but to embrace the branding of different

<taylanub>"GNU systems"

<davexunit>awhile ago someone posted the logos page on gnu.org to HN with a title like "some of the worst logos ever"

<taylanub>(or maybe I'm overthinking this all and Guix's technical superiority will win everyone over? :P)

<jgrant>davexunit: Yeah, I'm all for a more "professional" looking Guile logo.

<jgrant>Savnnah just needs a full-revamp replacement at this point, but that's a huge task generally ...

<davexunit>and a minefield.

<jgrant>What projects are still using CVS? I suspct a notable amount.

<davexunit>gnu.org

<jgrant>Ah really? Man...

<jxself>OpenBSD

<jgrant>I kinda wish we would just dictate GNU & SVN as the "supported SCMs" but it'll never happen.

<jgrant>GIT & SVN

<jgrant>sorry

<jgrant>Not sure why I capped both, but yeah.

*jgrant will bbl, going to relax and probably grab dinner. o/

*davexunit just stood on a story tall snow pile.

<davexunit>spying on the second story residents

<mark_weaver>heh :)

<jgrant>davexunit: You're in MA right?

<jgrant>It's been like ~60f the past few days in MO.

<davexunit>yeah

<pecg>Hello guys. Did we knew about this? http://rtos.com/products/guix/

<jxself>Sure.

<pecg>And? We didn't give a thing?

<taylanub>anyone know what to do with this ./configure error? http://sprunge.us/TSPi I added a pre-configure phase running exactly the recommended command but it made no difference.

<espectalll123>Hello! :3

<espectalll123>Just asking a quick thing - how do I find a package's dependencies?

<taylanub>espectalll123: guix package --show=the-package

<taylanub>(the output is in GNU recutils format I think, meaning you can programmatically parse it if needed, to get the dependencies.)

<espectalll123>guix package --show=emacs | grep dependencies

<espectalll123>Used that :P

<espectalll123>Thank you!

<svetlana`>I am looking for a volunteer who is running guix. I would like you to run gnustep and tell me whether "talksoup" application works. (I am trying it out on another distro and it's bonkers there.)

<svetlana`>Oh, like, if it's packaged.

<espectalll123>Is GNUstep packaged at all?

<espectalll123>I'd like to install it

<svetlana`>I don't know. I have to finish the struggle with hardware first.

<taylanub>there's gnu/packages/gnustep.scm with a bunch of stuff, like say WindowMaker, but no single package called "gnustep"

<svetlana`>the one you names looks relevant. windowmaker is the recommended wm for gnustep.

<civodul>Hello Guix!

<taylanub>hi :)

<svetlana`>Hi.

<civodul>yeah there's only WindowMaker

<svetlana`>I am just getting tired of my other distro gradually. That is motivating, granted things are okay here.

<civodul>jxself: yeah, 3.19!

<civodul>svetlana`: it may not be as mature as your other distro, but it's a lot of fun

<civodul>plus you'll soon find that you can't live without transactional upgrades ;-)

<taylanub>civodul: do you have experience with something like this?: http://sprunge.us/TSPi (I tried running the recommended command in a pre-configure phase, and also tried autoreconf -vif)

<civodul>ooh ltrace and openntpd had been on my list for ages, thanks taylanub

<taylanub>:)

<civodul>what command gives you that message?

<taylanub>./configure of cpufrequtils

<civodul>the configure script has Gentoo-specific checks?

<civodul>anyway, it seems to pass a bogus regexp to 'grep'

<civodul>i guess said regexp could just be patched, no?

<rekado_>re WindowMaker: it doesn't seem to be fully functional in stock GNU GSD using the configuration template.

<taylanub>civodul: I found some patch floating on the web, for the same issue in some other program; I can use that I guess

<taylanub>civodul: does it "count" if only 4 source files are under a different license in a package, and the COPYING file says the program is under ISC?

<taylanub>(the file mentions supposed "exceptions below" but lists no such exceptions, though I found 4 such files via grep)

<civodul>rekado_: what's wrong exactly? menus and icons?

<civodul>taylanub: 'license' should be the license of the combined work; if there are some files under a different license, it's OK to just put a comment above the 'license' field about that

<taylanub>ok

<rekado_>civodul: it fails to execute certain tools, e.g. when changing the style it complains about not finding "setstyle", although it's in /gnu/store/...windowmaker.../bin.

<rekado_>The exact error is "Could not execute command: setstyle /gnu/store/...windowmaker.../share/WindowMaker/Styles/Black.style"

<rekado_>Another error when I click on "Configure Window Maker" in the right-click menu: "Could not execute command: exec WPrefs"

<civodul>ouch, ok

<civodul>probably the aftermath of be05e643

<civodul>could you send an update to http://bugs.gnu.org/18698 ?

<rekado_>civodul: okay.

<rekado_>civodul: BTW: you were right about asking me to double-check the licenses for HISAT and STAR; both turned out to be GPLv3+ rather than just GPLv3. I promise to check more carefully before submitting a patch.

<civodul>np!

<civodul>i just thought that GPLv3-only is very rare

<civodul>we do have some, but some of them are wrong i think:

<civodul>guix package -s "" | recsel -p name,license -e 'license ~ "^GPL 3$"'

<rekado_>I'm wondering again about sharing a read-only store among different computers that do not have guix installed.

<davexunit>sounds like a convenient hack

<rekado_>A user's ~/.guix-profile is a symlink somewhere to $localstatedir, so also the $localstatedir must be available on every computer accessing the store, no?

<davexunit>yeah

<rekado_>Are there any problems with placing the localstatedir inside /gnu itself?

<davexunit>I don't know of any, but given that /gnu *only* has the store in it right now, I don't know.

<rekado_>I'm planing to just place it in /gnu/var/ and keep the store at /gnu/store/; then I only have to mount /gnu/ on all the other machines.

<davexunit>worth a shot

<davexunit>I'm interested in trying out 'guix archive' for making full application bundles for games and stuff, so any gnu/linux user can just download the bundle for their arch and play. I wonder how large such a bundle would be.

<rekado_>another thing I was wondering: can I just change the localstatedir by reconfiguring, make install'ing, and manually moving the data from the old localstatedir to the new location --- or does this break profiles in any way?

<davexunit>probably too large.

<davexunit>rekado_: not sure, you may have to rebuild your profile, or at the very least update the symlink for ~/.guix-profile

<davexunit>if the absolute paths to things in the localstatedir are stored somewhere, I would expect breakage.

<davexunit>I'm not familiar with that part of the codebase.

<rekado_>right now I can just rm -rf all the guix things and start over, but in case /gnu/var/ should cause problems and I only realise this after having set up a bunch of profiles for lots of users that would be considerably more painful.

<mark_weaver>paths to localstatedir are not stored in /gnu/store, except in our default 'guix' package itself.

<mark_weaver>rekado_: ^^

<davexunit>good to know

<mark_weaver>I don't see any particular problem with putting localstatedir in /gnu/var, but I wonder about the motivation.

<davexunit>I wanted to be cautious about such a move

<mark_weaver>if the idea is to export localstatedir to other machines, I'm a bit concerned, although civodul is the one to ask.

<rekado_>mark_weaver: the motivation is in fact to export localstatedir to other machines.

<mark_weaver>rekado_: as for moving localstatedir, I'm not sure. one issue (easily fixed) is that some of the symlinks point to other things in there with absolute paths, so those would have to be fixed.

<mark_weaver>rekado_: why do you want to export localstatedir to other machines?

<mark_weaver>what do you hope this will enable?

<rekado_>any machine with read access to the store needs to have a link to the profile. The profile link is in localstatedir and that again, through a chain of symlinks, points somewhere into the store.

<rekado_>or am I misunderstanding something?

<rekado_>I have only one server with write access to the store (and localstatedir).

<mark_weaver>well, a profile is ultimately just a directory in /gnu/store, so easily recreated on other machines.

<rekado_>the store is located on an NFS share that can be mounted r/o by any cluster node and any workstation.

<mark_weaver>the problem is that there are other things in localstatedir that might be problematic.

<rekado_>users' homedirs are also stored on some NFS share, so once they set up a link from ~/.guix-profile to $localstatedir/their-profile they can use their software on any machine.

<rekado_>problematic even if available only in a read-only manner?

<rekado_>the users won't have access to the guix tools themselves.

<rekado_>when they want software I package it and install it into their profile from that one privileged server with rw access on /gnu

<rekado_>I don't want to have to set up guix on each machine where the users might want to access their software profile.

<jeffrin>hello all

<rekado_>(and: I *cannot* install guix on each machine or manually manage the profile symlinks, because only a small part of these machines is under configuration management. Doing it manually for the whole campus isn't feasible.)

<davexunit>I wonder what the best way to say "create a derivation with these inputs and no build process"

<davexunit>is

<mark_weaver>davexunit: use trivial build system with a builder that does nothing (but return #t I guess?)

<mark_weaver>(I'm just guessing about what the builder should return to indicate success)

<davexunit>mark_weaver: yeah, good idea.

<davexunit>thanks

<mark_weaver>you could make a procedure that creates such a package given a list of inputs.

*mark_weaver goes afk

<davexunit>yeah, that would be reasonable.

<davexunit>look everyone, it's civodul!

<civodul>yes it's me!

<civodul>and there, i can see davexunit!

<davexunit>:P

*davexunit thinks about how to extend 'guix environment' to VMs

<civodul>yay!

<civodul>we also need to address that guix publish issue!

<davexunit>yes!

<davexunit>sorry about that.

<davexunit>I got quite frustrated and took a long break from it.

<civodul>yes, that happens to me occasionally :-)

<davexunit>perhaps I can take another look tonight.

<civodul>sure

<civodul>i'm willing to help, but i don't know how to best help

<davexunit>I need to setup my testing environment again

<davexunit>I use two computers to test.

<davexunit>my dedicated GuixSD desktop, and my Debian+Guix laptop.

<davexunit>I need to try again to see the exact failure point, my memory is fuzzy.

<civodul>ok

<davexunit>it's definitely with the transfer of the archive, I remember that much.

<civodul>speaking of which, i think we'll have to adopt the beautiful logo (and name)

<davexunit>that logo is really great

<civodul>yeah

<civodul>we can definitely put it in splash screens and such, but what about the web site?

<civodul>it seems confusing to have two logos on one page

<davexunit>yeah

<civodul>so we probably need a real web site at some point

<davexunit>agreed.

<civodul>that means we probably need to get rid of the header/footer

<civodul>which i'm not completely comfortable with

<civodul>but OTOH, we need to move on

<davexunit>because it would be getting rid of the GNU stuff?

<civodul>well, this is not strictly related

<civodul>but if we want this cool fancy branding, it seems difficult to keep the red/blue banner at the top

<civodul>dunno

<civodul>i have the impression that people like Felipe would be able to do nice stuff if we removed that constraint

<davexunit>I think so, too.

<davexunit> http://mediagoblin.org is a good example of a GNU project with a separate website

<civodul>yes

<civodul>and it's really nice

<davexunit>yes

<civodul>it saddens me that it's easier to "move away" from standard gnu.org than to make it evolve

<davexunit>yes, that's true.

<davexunit>I wish gnu.org could adopt a "github pages" style thing

<civodul>yeah

<davexunit>we have a sort of clunky, cvs version of that now.

<civodul>oh you mean the style or the underlying technology?

<davexunit>I guess both.

<davexunit>having to use CVS to deploy the site is quite the limitation

<civodul>right, although it might be possible to address them separately

<civodul>yeah

<davexunit>but I guess it would be possible for us to have a site on gnu.org that didn't use the header/footer

<civodul>yes, it's definitely possible

<civodul>another example is smalltalk.gnu.org

<davexunit>so the style could be completely ours

<civodul>or hurd.gnu.org

<civodul>yes

<davexunit>a subdomain would be cool, too.

<davexunit>;)

<paroneayea>+1 to website that isn't default gnu look and feel

<jxself>Yes, and it's easy to do.

<jxself>Just don't use the SSI include commands to include the default CSS & such.

<jxself>Make up your own. :)

<paroneayea>(and thanx for the compliments on mg.org davexunit ;))

<civodul>jxself: isn't there something on fencepost for subdomains?

<civodul>i vaguely recall seeing a config file somewhere

<jxself>I'm not sure. It may be possible. The FSF sysadmins would probably know more.

<civodul>and what do we do with the main Guix logo?

<civodul>i like the new one...

<paroneayea>civodul: turn it into a rotating geocities style gif on cursor hover

<jxself>Hehe :)

*paroneayea not being productive :)

<schjetne>paroneayea: off-topic, but now that I see you, I really enjoyed the talks at FOSDEM you did together with Deb!

<paroneayea>hey schjetne!

<paroneayea>oh great! :)

<paroneayea>schjetne: were you at both?

<schjetne>yes

<paroneayea>cool :)

<paroneayea>schjetne: I was a little bit nervous that the distro one would get some reaction like

<paroneayea>"you don't know what you're talking about! All the distros *did* solve this and you just don't know how to use them because you aren't a distro person!"

<paroneayea>but it seems people were mostly on board, and interested in discussing it

<davexunit>maybe it's my bias now that I've been around all these guix/nix people for awhile, but people seem more open to admitting that there are legitimate problems with the way mainstream distros work.

<schjetne>yes, it's a tough nut to crack, I do web dev myself, and I'm terrible when it comes to deploying things.

<davexunit>I also do web dev, and yes, deploying things is a nightmare all around.

<davexunit>people have made deploying somewhat nice for applications written in certain languages, but no one has really solved it generally.

<schjetne>not to mention that I use Common Lisp, a language with very little infrastructure for these things

<davexunit>schjetne: do you program in CL professionally? if so, awesome!

<schjetne>davexunit: a startup, so I got to chose the technology

<davexunit>nice!

<davexunit>I'm not really into startups, I like the safety of an established business, but I feel like I need to go into business for myself if I want to ever use Guile (or any other Scheme) professionally.

<davexunit>but basically the dream is to write Guile to pay the bills.

<davexunit>maybe some day.

<schjetne>what do you use now?

<davexunit>PHP, Ruby, Python, JavaScript

<davexunit>the usual

<paroneayea>davexunit: convince johnsu01 and nully you need to switch all the servers over to guix and build a guixops deployment system ;)

<paroneayea>then spend your days working out the bugs!

<davexunit>we have enough bugs to handle in the software other people wrote :P

<paroneayea>:)

*davexunit glares at civicrm

<davexunit>been hard making that a stable platform for donations. not quite there yet.

<civodul>paroneayea: i like the idea of a rotating gif ;-)

<paroneayea> http://www.textfiles.com/underconstruction/

<civodul>:-)

<davexunit>dancing baby anyone?

<civodul>heh

<civodul>did anyone notice that our Continuous Improvement Department has brought you a Faster™ Hydra?

<davexunit>ooh what changed?

<civodul>("faster": not to be confused with "fast")

<civodul>lots of nginx caching!

<davexunit>nice

<civodul>lots less CPU load there!

<paroneayea>civodul: I thought you would say "guile 2.2"! :)

<civodul>and so lots more bandwidth

<civodul>paroneayea: ahah, not yet ;-)

<bavier`>one should be able to say (package foo ... (source "<filename>") ...), correct?

<davexunit>does that skip hash checking somehow?

<bavier`>davexunit: I believe so

<davexunit>hmmm

<bavier`>I'm just looking at the definition of origin->derivation in (guix packages), and the matching suggests that it possible for the "origin" to be a string.

<bavier`>so, if that's the intent, it seems to be untested, as I get errors from derivation->output-paths when trying to do such a thing.

<civodul>bavier`: yes, it can be a local file name, but that functionality may suffer from bitrot

<bavier`>civodul: ok, I'll take a look at it. It seemed like a useful feature for tets.

<civodul>yes

<bavier`>*tests

<davexunit>it would be useful for me. it would invalidate some of the problems I shared in my recent mailing list thread.

<davexunit>;)

*davexunit goes afk

<grantixx>My replacement charger came in today for my old laptop ... so I can be practical and make it my dedicated devel box until I get Clisp & Stumpwm downpat. \\o/

IRC channel logs

2015-02-10.log