IRC channel logs

<iyzsong>mark_weaver: install gnome-icon-theme and shared-mime-info, point XDG_DATA_DIRS to .guix-profile/share should bring most icons to work.

<iyzsong>the still missing one are due to invalid cache of hicolor-icon-theme, I think.

<d4n1rc>hi guix

<jgrant>davexunit: o/

<davexunit>hey jgrant

<jgrant>davexunit: Can I pm you about trivial webdev advice?

<davexunit>sure

<mark_weaver>iyzsong: thanks for the help, but that didn't fix it on my system.

<iyzsong>mark_weaver: um, did you select gnome in xfce's icon settings manager?

<mark_weaver>no, let me try that.

<mark_weaver>iyzsong: where do I find xfce's icon settings manager?

<mark_weaver>ah, found it. that worked, thanks! :)

<iyzsong>ok, it's tricky to get xfce work properly now :(

<mark_weaver>it's okay, one step at a time. I'm grateful to have XFCE at all :)

<mark_weaver>but yeah, we should think about how to make this easier for new users

<iyzsong>yes, it's on my todo list definitely.

<svetlana>Wanted to ask what to do with pronouncing the GuixSD phrase. That's double S sound, right? (I'm reading the mail.)

<mark_weaver>svetlana: has anyone responded to RMS's suggestion yet? until we hear from civodul, I wouldn't assume anything.

<mark_weaver>but if we were to use GuixSD, I agree that it would probably have a double S sound.

<mark_weaver>like "geeks ess dee"

<davexunit>or simply GSD :)

<svetlana>mark_weaver: yeah I know it's not a final thing. thanks.

<mbuf>is there any criteria or license for including packages in guix?

<mbuf>*license requirements

<jgrant>mbuf: As long as it's "FOSS" it's fine.

<mbuf>jgrant, okay

<mbuf>jgrant, are there any recommendations on hosting servers where one can install guix and test?

<jgrant>Let me see if I can find that fsf/gnu list with what they consider to be "free software licenses". That'd probably be the best gauge.

<mbuf>jgrant, or I can just ask in the -devel list

<jgrant>mbuf: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html

<jgrant>mbuf: Can you expand on "hosting servers"?

*jgrant just woke up and still is a bit hazy, sorry.

<mbuf>jgrant, remote servers like VPS

<mbuf>jgrant, Virtual Private Servers or shared hosting that you recommend

<mbuf>jgrant, with SSH access

<mbuf>jgrant, like a dedicated server

<jgrant>mbuf: Ah, I personally use Linode. Not sure if there is an "all free solution" to this.

<mbuf>jgrant, I see

<jgrant>mbuf: Oh, wait. Are you talking about installing the distro, not just the package manager on a host system?

<mbuf>jgrant, yes

<jgrant>Yeah, I'm not aware of anything like this currently -- that's not a massive pain in the arse (as in bootstraping from an image that runs in swap, etc, etc).

<jgrant>Guix can easily generate a VM image though, if that works for you.

<mbuf>jgrant, okay

<mbuf>jgrant, thanks

<jgrant>mbuf: Yeah, np. If you need any help, don't be afraid to ask in here.

*jgrant has been considering attempting a go at a build script for Finnix, to set up Guix distro.

<dfh>hey guys. anybody here running Guix on OS X? i want to set up a reproducible env for web dev (python, postgres) and i was thinking it might be a good opportunity to dip my toes in...

<jgrant>dfh: I'm not sure if anyone has done this yet, but in theory everything "should" work. The two big depends, (guile and nix) are available in Homebrew.

<dfh>yeah, i skimmed the installation instructions

<dfh>never jumped on the homebrew wagon though -- still using macports :)

<taylanub>me too, and not really missing anything...

<jgrant>Is that the only two "proper" package managers on OSX?

<jgrant>Are those*

<taylanub>I seem to remember at least one more, whose name I forgot

<jgrant>MS has that "Chocolate" or whatever, now, iirc.

<taylanub>Fink it is

<jgrant>Isn't that the "one" scientist in the Simpsons?

<jgrant>Oh, that's "Frink".

<jgrant>Which, evidently there is a math-based language called that. :^P

<jgrant>Anyways, going offtopic.

<jgrant>What happened to sneek, in here?

<dfh>i like how macports installs everything into /opt/local/, feels less sketchy...

<dfh>anyway, i might have a go at Guix then...

*jgrant is now wondering if there is any FOSS services for VPS, now.

<jgrant>I haven't heard of any.

<jgrant>Would GSD have some advantage over other VPS providers?

<dfh>you mean one that runs the entire stack on FOSS? hardware included?

<jgrant>dfh: I could maybe get away with them using non-free drivers ... I wouldn't like it, but yeah. I mean more that like the whole software stack that they use, is available and runable locally.

<dfh>likely there'll be some virtualization going on at the host though... you mean everything "beneath" that?

<jgrant>But yeah, I just realized that Guix might be amazing for VPS. Seperate profiles, vm images that can share a store or have it's own, etc, etc.

<jgrant>dfh: I mean, all software being used by say something Linode -- I could clone a copy of their self-developed software stack, grab all their dependencies, and could run it on my machine.

<dfh>i see

*jgrant is trying to think all what one would need to do, to set up a build script on Linode.

<jgrant>Looks relatively straight forward, actually.

<davexunit>... so we can't abbreviate "Guix System Distribution" to GSD.

*davexunit pulls out his hair

<sirgazil>davexunit: I never thought it was going to be so difficult to name the distro...

<davexunit>yeah...

<rekado_>when rms says "shouldn't" does this mean "can't"? He wrote "If we want an abbreviation, let's use GuixSD."

<rekado_>his first objection could be solved by abbreviating it as GNU GSD.

<rekado_>I don't think people would still confuse the G to stand for GNU then.

<rekado_>but obviously this ruins a completely fine abbreviation.

<dfh>GSD is *much* better than GuixSD, imo :/

<sirgazil>I agree :)

<sirgazil>Is there going to be an easier way to install the distro in the next version? Or is it too soon? I can't wait to start using it.

<davexunit>sirgazil: things should only get easier as time goes on. what's the blocker for you?

<taylanub>hm, GSD and BSD seem different enough to me actually, in pronunciation and text

<davexunit>GSD is certainly not a dig at BSD

<davexunit>but a playful pun

<taylanub>ah, I just read RMS's mail

<davexunit>pretty much every argument is "people *might* think..."

<davexunit>and I just don't buy those arguments

<DusXMT>people think a lot of silly things...

<mark_weaver>jgrant: being FOSS is not quite enough. See https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Software-Freedom.html

<mark_weaver>but alas, mbuf is no longer around to correct that

<mark_weaver>jgrant: you seem to be in the habit of answering questions for newcomers about Guix. I appreciate your trying to help, but you seem prone to making guesses about subjects that you don't know much about. please be more careful not to spread misinformation. thanks.

<mark_weaver>jgrant: you were completely wrong in your answer about OS X that "in theory everything should work".

<dfh>mark_weaver: so, it does not work?

<mark_weaver>dfh: Guix would have to be _ported_ to XNU (the kernel of OS X). new bootstrap tarballs would have to be cross-compiled from a GNU/Linux system.

<mark_weaver>glibc would have to support XNU. I don't know off hand if it does or not.

<mark_weaver>Guix on XNU would not use the OS X libraries at all. only the kernel. it would still be a complete GNU userland, just as we have on GNU/Linux, but on a different kernel.

<dfh>hm. i don't get it -- even if i just want to use Guix as a package manager?

<dfh>is it because of the chrooting?

<mark_weaver>dfh: the problem is that when Guix builds packages, it doesn't build packages on top of the libraries/compiler you already have on your system.

<DusXMT>dfh: just consider the fact that you need bootstrap binaries

<dfh>hm, i see

<mark_weaver>instead, it starts from a set of pre-built "bootstrap tarballs" that contains GLIBC, GCC, basic command-line utilities, and Guile.

<mark_weaver>and everything is built based on those.

<DusXMT>It takes effort to simply port it to a different architecture, but porting it to a different OS, that's probably be tough

<mark_weaver>it might not be that hard, I really don't know.

<DusXMT>(there already is such an effort, to make it work on the Hurd, but the person is currently busy)

<DusXMT>s/that's/that'd/

<mark_weaver>dfh: if you wanted to try, this would be the place to start: https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Porting.html

<mark_weaver>you'd start with Guix running on a GNU/Linux box, and then try to cross-compile bootstrap tarballs for XNU using the command in the "Porting" section of the manual. You just need to figure out the right GNU triplet for using full GNU userland on a XNU kernel.

<dfh>hm. that's way beyond my capabilities at the moment i'm afraid. guess i'll go for a VM instead.

<mark_weaver>okay

<davexunit>if I still worked at an office that made me use OS X I might have given it a try. :P

<dfh>hehe, i'm stuck with it for the time being.

<dfh>tho' i like it less and less

<davexunit>I tried getting my girlfriend to use Nix on her work laptop, but their installation procedure isn't very good.

<davexunit>something went wrong and Nix attempted to compile *everything*

<davexunit>coudn't figure out why so I just deleted /nix and that was the end of that journey.

<davexunit>despite having the same underlying structure, Nix is a completely different beast.

<dfh>heh. i remember using Gentoo way back, took like two days to install.

<dfh>aha, i thought Nix was quite similar.

<davexunit>something wasn't setup right with nixpkgs

<davexunit>but I couldn't figure it out.

<davexunit>if things were correct, it would have downloaded binaries rather than building them locally.

<sirgazil>davexunit: sorry, I had to run. About the installation of the distro, I was looking for a way to create an image I can use in a virtual machine or for an installer CD/DVD in case I find a real machine. Believe it or not, I don't have access to a USB stick.

*sirgazil :)

<DusXMT>sirgazil: Another way to install it (how I did it at first) is to install Guix in top of a different distro on a different partition, and then install from there, using `guix system init'

<DusXMT>It's the exact same procedure as with the USB image, except done on a non-live system

<DusXMT>You might even get by doing this on a differentlive system, but beware, everything you modify is in ram (most live CDs work copy-on-write to ram), so you might just not have enough (in that case, you need more swap)

<sirgazil>DusXMT: But that will give me a mix of Guix distro with another distro? I'm not as advanced a user as most people here :)

<DusXMT>sirgazil: Actually, no

<DusXMT>The first step, installing guix onto the non-Guixotic distro, will leave you with a `mix of Guix distro with another distro', from there, you'll create a (pure) Guixotic system on a different partition using `guix system init'

<sirgazil>Ah, I see. Maybe I will try that. Thanks.

<DusXMT>yw

<DusXMT>sirgazil: and just to defeat your doubts, there'll be no difference in the installed system compared to if you installed it from the USB image, as it's the same exact set of steps on the same config file (that you'll write, using the one in the Guix manual as a template perhaps), so you don't have to worry about making an `inferior system'.

<sirgazil>Yeah, I am looking for a pure Guixotic system. So, thanks again :)

<davexunit>sirgazil: we'll have ISOs at some point, I'm sure.

<davexunit>we just need someone to figure out how to do it

<jgrant>davexunit: zdavis_was working at it for a bit, not sure if it's still on his list, on his backburner, or gave up.

<davexunit>oh yeah, he had issues with file name limits or something

<jgrant>*.iso support would be great though, a lot of people shockingly don't use USB images over CD/DVDs.

<d4n1rc>Hi guixs

<d4n1rc>I need your help please

<d4n1rc>I'm install Gnu Guix (OS) and after first boot I'm tried install emacs, windowmaker and other software, for example: guix package -i emacs

<d4n1rc>but always stop: build failed of '... profile.drv' failed

<d4n1rc>What's goin on? Help me please

<bavier`>d4n1rc: what other error messages are printed?

<d4n1rc>build failed of '... profile.drv' failed

<DusXMT>d4n1rc: a pastebin of the entire error would be more useful

<d4n1rc>Ok, wait a moment please.

<d4n1rc>After install, where configure system?

<DusXMT>d4n1rc: you edit the system definition file, and update the system to reflect it using `guix system reconfigure /path/to/config.scm

<DusXMT>'

<d4n1rc>thanks

<d4n1rc>There isn't a config.scm by default. I use the template customized

<d4n1rc>I think create in blog some post about install, postinstall and trucks about Guix in future

<bavier`>d4n1rc: it's not for the latest release of guix, but there's http://draketo.de/light/english/install-gnu-guix-03

<bavier`>I guess that's also not for the standalone system

<bavier`> http://gleane.org/guix-gluglug.html might be better

<d4n1rc>Thanks bavier, good site

<fchmmr>Hi

<fchmmr> http://gleane.org/guix-gluglug.html

<fchmmr>I'm reading through it and I'll offer some suggestions where appropriate.

<fchmmr>quote:

<fchmmr>"Booting into Guix on the X60 with Grub as BIOS is also slightly uncomfortable: you'll get to the boot screen, but from there you'll have to "scan the internal disk for bootloaders" every time (this time you wont have to edit it as we are indeed booting from the internal hard drive)."

<fchmmr>Here is how to modify the grub.cfg so that you don't need to use the "Search" or "scan" option:

<fchmmr> http://libreboot.org/docs/gnulinux/grub_cbfs.html

<fchmmr>That can also be used to modify or duplicate the "scan" option to add it for USB aswell.

<fchmmr>as in the case of, quote:

<fchmmr> find the line that says

<fchmmr> for x in (ahci0,*) ; do';

<fchmmr> change `ahci' to `usb', so the line now looks like:

<fchmmr> for x in (usb0,*) ; do';

<fchmmr>Basically, since Guix uses GRUB and so does libreboot, the configuration is the same except that the grub.cfg is in the boot flash.

<fchmmr> http://libreboot.org/docs/gnulinux/grub_cbfs.html shows you how to modify the grub.cfg. This can be done without having to re-compile libreboot or grub. The only requirement is that you need to re-flash the modified libreboot image.

<fchmmr>Whatever Guix uses in its own grub.cfg to boot, you can adapt and put it libreboot's grub.cfg file.

<fchmmr>Feel free to drop by #libreboot or the mailing list with any changes made. For changes that are more or less generic (not specific to Guix) I can actually merge them in the libreboot git repository.

<fchmmr>Or I can add a separate menuentry for Guix, for the default (assumed) configuration.

<bavier`>fchmmr: thanks for all the help!

<fchmmr>For instance, the "Load operating system" boot entry in the grub.cfg used by libreboot assumes that the user is running Trisquel with / and /boot on sda1 where there is a symlink vmlinuz and initrd.img in / pointing to the correct kernel in /boot (symlink) or where those files in / are the real ones and not symlinks.

<fchmmr>In fact, remove "Trisquel" from that paragraph and just apply the rest. (because the default "Load operating system" entry also works for ProteanOS, Debian, Ubuntu, Linux Mint etc with the same assumptions).

<fchmmr>or any distro, in fact, as long as their criteria I mentioned are met.

<fchmmr>I can add such an entry for Guix if desirable.

<fchmmr>I don't know much about Guix though because I've never used it. I would like to at some point. I'm happy just to merge what works that others have tested.

<fchmmr>The usability issue with libreboot is that because the grub.cfg is in SPI flash and GRUB is the payload of coreboot-libre, most distros won't be completely automatic.

<fchmmr>It would be nice if there was a way in a distro to say "I am a libreboot user, with the GRUB payload, with the grub.cfg in CBFS" so that it would automatically dump the image, extract grub.cfg, modify it, re-insert it into the image and then re-flash.

<fchmmr>That might be risky though, because mistakes made here can brick the machine.

<fchmmr>It's not really a "risk" since external SPI programmers are easy to find, but it's an annoyance that most users want to avoid (and me especially. I don't want a horde of people in #libreboot asking how to use a SPI flasher ;)

<d4n1rc>baiver and everybody, I send my printscreen about erro when I install packages in Guix: http://snag.gy/3kolo.jpg

<d4n1rc>I'm tried update: guix pull

<bavier`>d4n1rc: it looks like you might not have networking set up.

<d4n1rc>I configure my network (dhclient) and I hava access to Internet

<bavier`>ohhh... I think we've encountered this before. OpenSSL deletes "old" source tarballs from their FTP server. Ugh.

<d4n1rc>:(

<bavier`>so, they have version 1.0.1k and 1.0.1l, but no 1.0.1j

<d4n1rc>hummm, thanks

<bavier`>the latest guix source points to 1.0.1k

<d4n1rc>I beleive with update it work

<d4n1rc>After the pull I execute the upgrade and I'll try again

<d4n1rc>I'll report here too as in my blog about it

<d4n1rc>thanks

<d4n1rc>:)

<bavier`>yes, do let us know how it goes.

<d4n1rc>Allright

IRC channel logs

2015-01-21.log