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<zacts>lo guix geeks
<davexunit>hello #guix
<storge>hello guix :)
<zacts>davexunit: hey man
<zacts>mark_weaver: hey man are you around?
<jgrant>Is there somewhere on the ML, or otherwise describing the branding decision?
<jgrant>Ah, just found it.
<jgrant>What a shame; I'm obviously biased (as first suggesting Geist) but I have the general fear that Guixotic will further add on to the already strong sense of confusion in-terms of branding Guix already has.
<jgrant>Going to bed, maybe I'll bring this up tomorrow. More likely, I'll probably throw up a formal writeup on the ML.
<jgrant>sneek: help
<jgrant>sneek: later tell civudol: Is the documentation commit a formal statement that you chose "Quixotic" as a name and we shouldn't be bringing up any points of contention with it anymore? As in, "this is the way is right now, I'm exercising my rights as dictator"?
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<sneek>civodul, you have 1 message.
<sneek>civodul, jgrant says: Is the documentation commit a formal statement that you chose "Quixotic" as a name and we shouldn't be bringing up any points of contention with it anymore? As in, "this is the way is right now, I'm exercising my rights as dictator"?
<civodul>heh, in a way, yes ;-)
<civodul>i think there was a rough consensus on the strategy
<civodul>then no single name was unanimously loved
<rekado_>I'm still a little unsure about the effects of this decision. Are you still looking for a logo / graphics of a gnuified don quixote / etc? Or is this something we don't need because we won't be using the name much in public anyway?
<dfh>as a total bystander, i find the name Guixotic awful -- it looks complicated, i don't know what it means, i don't know how to prounounce it and it doesn't sound like something i want. i would prefer something shorter, simpler and more catchy. i do know there has been previous discussion about this, and i understand my opinion probably doesn't count much here, but felt i needed to voice it anyway. i guess i care because Guix loo
<dfh>very promising :)
<civodul>rekado_: we won't be using it much, i think
<rekado_>dfh: I didn't like it at first (because I'm too dense to see the relation to quixotic->quixote), but now I no longer care much. I call the system I use "GNU" anyway (in much the same way others call theirs "Linux").
<dfh>yeah, i guess it depends on where/how much it would be used... but if it won't be used much, what other name will be used to market it?
<effa>the problem is that a name really matter: You can have the best product with an bad name / look and it will not sell. Why did iPod dominated mp3 sales? Because it looked nicer than competitions... To get people it must look / sound good. My 2 cents.
<dfh>for internal use i think it's totally okay. but then there would have to be a different name for public marketing...
<Sleep_Walker>Adam published nice article about Guix for our Linux focused news server :)
<civodul>Sleep_Walker: any link (if it's public)?
<Sleep_Walker>civodul: but it's in Czech...
<civodul>looks nice :-)
<civodul>Sleep_Walker: what does the title mean?
<Sleep_Walker>The GNU system with a help of Guix
<rekado_>when building icedtea6 in a session spawned by guix environment --pure icedtea6 I get this error:
<rekado_>ld-wrapper: error: attempt to use impure library "/usr/lib64/"
<civodul>rekado_: it means that Something Bad was about to happen :-)
<civodul>namely, the linker chose your host libc instead of that of Guix
<rekado_>at no point did I specify anything like that and the build process completes just fine when I just do guix build icedtea6
<rekado_>why does it do that?
<civodul>it's not due to an env var, because you used --pure
<civodul>it might be or something like that
<civodul>or it could be a hard-coded file name somewhere in icedtea's build system
<rekado_>I checked the* files and there's no mention of libc.
<civodul>could you check in the build log at which point /usr/lib64 is first mentioned?
<rekado_>if it is a hard-coded file name in icedtea's build system (of which there are many) then why does it work just fine with guix build?
<civodul>because when using 'guix build', the build happens in a chroot where /usr/lib64 doesn't exist
<rekado_>ah, I see.
<civodul>so icedtea's build system could be doing something like: if [ -d /usr/lib64 ]; then ...
<rekado_>there is in fact "-L/usr/lib64" on the GCC line.
<civodul>oh, that's the reason then
<civodul>this flag has no effect in the chroot
<civodul>but it does have an effect here
<rekado_>I see. Thanks. I'll patch this out for now. Just want to get to a point where I can fix the tests.
<civodul>it's really great that you're working on icedtea
<civodul>it's among the "scary" packages, like LibreOffice
<rekado_>had I known that it would take so long I probably wouldn't have started :) I naively thought it couldn't possibly be *that* hard...
<rekado_>Is there something similar to "guix build --keep-failed" that keeps the build directory even if the build did not fail?
<rekado_>with icedtea a failure in make check does not result in a failed build, but I'd really like to keep the directory around so that I can inspect the generated test files and reports.
<civodul>heh :-)
<civodul>now that you're almost done, you can't escape ;-)
<civodul>no, there's nothing like --keep-not-failed
<civodul>but you could just use 'copy-recursively' to keep the build tree in the output
<civodul>(for debugging purposes)
<rekado_>ok, I'll do that.
<rekado_>(Actually I'm happy I started to work on packaging icedtea. It's a rather educational experience.)
<civodul>i can imagine
<civodul>rekado_: BTW, what happened to CUPS? :-)
<rekado_>civodul: oh, still working on it. I actually have updated the patches already and separated IJS from ghostscript. I'm just waiting for a slice of time to rebuild these things to see if everything still works as expected; then I'll submit new patches.
<civodul>oh ok, np
<civodul>i was just wondering if i had missed something
<mark_weaver>if anyone would like to help with the imminent core-updates merge, here are the new build failures:
<mark_weaver>civodul: any idea what went wrong here?
<civodul>mark_weaver: libc_pic.a may have been stripped whereas it shoudn't
<civodul>or stripped with the native 'strip' instead of 'foo-linux-gnu-strip'
<mark_weaver>civodul: I'll email bug-guix about it
<jgrant>civodul: My main area of contention, is that it adds another layer of confusion to a name that is already problematic for English speakers (which I assume will be the vast majority of who one will be marketing to Native or otherwise). Guix has proven itself to be problematic over the past year or-so with pronunciation, and Guixotic builds on that even more leading me and others I've I have talked to that such a name
<jgrant> is going for "guh-exotic" not "geeks-otic" which obviously if you are trying to convey a certain message and it's easily mix up able with a certain name it's a bit problematic.
<jgrant>I'm obviously biased, as the original suggester of "Geist", but certainly it doesn't have that problem nor do other suggestions on that wiki.
<jgrant>many other suggestions*
<jgrant>This conversation has been wearing to the point of exhaustion I think, to all parties involved. But it's not a triviality, really, it's something you are trying to pull in non-technical and/or "everyman" users in with and something that is so foreign in name can be scary.
<jxself>If only RMS would have let us call it GNU...
<jgrant>jxself: I mean the eventual hope is that "Guixotic" or whatever, will get big enough to convince him... the fear I hold is, not being able to gain any mindshare over something as trivial as a problematic name.
<jgrant>So "Guixotic" is a transport vehicle to get to the title of "The GNU System" one day, but I think that largely has to do with home much of a general asset "Guixotic" or whatever, has over other distros not just technically. We have 2-3 strongish 3rd party distros -- unless "Guixotic" can not only dwarf but cannibalize the communities, both users and developers of such distros, I don't see it being a convening argume
<jgrant>nt to give this (Guixotic) such a title.
<jgrant>And I think such a name given to this distribution is very problematic to get there.
<jgrant>Again, I have a foot in this race as I have suggested Geist and a few others on the Wiki ... but I'm not biased to my solutions to this problem. I want "Guixotic" to be a great success, I don't think it'll get there with the road it's taken.
<jgrant>You'll going to get growth with such a name, yeah, but there's going to be a bottle neck once you run out of overly technical users and reach into the realm of your core demographic "regular computer users".
<jgrant>But yeah, until I get a response ... I'm done for now, I don't want to /overly/ flood this channel.
<civodul>naming is an important but difficult topic, as we've seen
<sneek>Got it.
<civodul>but it's just one part of the strategy
<davexunit>sneek: botsnack
<davexunit>you are a silly bot
<jgrant>civodul: Yeah, but I see it as a seminal one. And one, that if not taken seriously, is ultimately problematic in trying to reach the end goal of becoming said/this "GNU Operating System" in the canon.
<jgrant>It's something I don't want to overreach my bounds in, as I've historically have been asked to be quite on this subject in here and too -- something that looks tired on the ML proper.
<jgrant>But too, I want to be clear, that I and from what I can tell a fairly large contingency is not happy with.
<jgrant>That being said, if one was formally to exercise their right as dictator on such a thing, while I and others may not be happy -- I'd surely respect the sentiment and end it their.
<civodul>ok yes, i see that more than i thought are unhappy with the name
<civodul>besides, it's not about being a dictator (i hope!), it's about moving forward
<jgrant>civodul: I'm using in the sense of bd4l, as in, you have the ultimate say and people will respect your decisions on things if you say "this is the way it is, we need to move on".
<jgrant>I'm not using it in a derogatory sense, but in the jokingish way people are apt to use it in FOSS.
<civodul>anyway, we've discussed it at length, and we haven't had a frankly consensual proposal
<civodul>(apart from "GNU")
<jgrant>There's obviously going to be an inherent bias for me, regarding a lot of choices made available on the wiki (with nearly 1/3 to 1/4 being manifested from me in one way or another ...) but yeah, there's a general issue with this in that people want an either joking and/or proposal that has a lot of meaning behind it.
<jgrant>The issue with Guixotic is multifaceted though, while I enjoy the sentiment of being Quixote-like ... there are so many issues with that implementation that I can see it being an active draw of resources.
<davexunit>despite not being a popular choice (none of them are), guixotic somehow seems the least controversial to me.
<jgrant>davexunit: Well, yeah, it is a pun (though horrible audibly) that has Guix in it's name.
<jgrant>That's an asset, but once one gets to verbal communication and past that of pictographing such a thing I see it being very problematic.
<jgrant>I think overwhelmingly people will default to thinking that it's a pun on exotic, which is fine and punny, but if we are pushing the narrative of Geeks not Guh-icks... it's problematic.
<jgrant>You can of course specify how it's pronounced, but still, not ideal because because it does not obviously come off as "Quixotic" nor do many people know what that even means.
<davexunit>I've gotten quite used to it: geeks-ought-ick
<jgrant>Who knows, maybe I'm worried about nothing ... I just really don't want to see what I deem the most important GNU project in over a decade, cut it's feet off and limit it's chances to reaching it's goals of becoming the "GNU Operating System" proper. I see amassing significant Free Software Mindshare to be a biggie here/there in route to such a thing, and I don't see it happening with "Guixotic". Again, of course I'
<jgrant>m a bit biased because of my other competing suggestions -- but this is not the case of "I didn't win/get my way", this is a case of "oh man, I hope they didn't 'ruin' it's chances for semi-mass appeal with this".
<jgrant>Actually, I'm really hoping I am worried about nothing.
<davexunit>I think there's a lot of other issues to be worried about as far as mass appeal goes.
<jgrant>davexunit: What, that cannot be solved by simple time + work?
<davexunit>the Nix project has been working for almost a decade, and NixOS is still very much a NicheOS.
<jgrant>Obviously we need a graphical installer, probably GNOME, etc.
<davexunit>I would have told Mark Shuttleworth that "Ubuntu" is a silly name that will never catch on if he had asked me for my opinion before he began its development.
<jgrant>davexunit: Is that not because they don't have a strongly advertised brand? As in their community doesn't actively try to push such a thing? I didn't know of NixOS for 3 of the 5 years I was on GNU+Linux and I was actively looking into different/strange environments.
<jgrant>davexunit: Audibly, Ubuntu flows a lot better.
<civodul>davexunit: NicheOS, i like it :-)
<davexunit>quick! change the branding! get marketing on the horn!
<davexunit>civodul: ooh, exciting developments for monads.
<jgrant>Also, Ubuntu is not a /painful/ pun. Quixotic is pronounced quicks-otic, which doesn't sound similar enough for people to pick up that pun audibly -- even if they knew what Quixotic was off the back.
<davexunit>I don't even care about the pun, honestly. pronouncing it like geeksotic, it's grown on me a bit.
<jgrant>davexunit: A large justification of the choosing of such a thing, was given that it was a pun and too that poked fun at the project for having large goals.
<davexunit>civodul: I think (guix monads) should become part of core guile, so all guile users can easily program this way.
<civodul>davexunit: yes, that's also part of the motivation for splitting things
<davexunit>jgrant: yes, but you don't have to know that.
<jgrant>It's okay to have an arbitrary name that really has no backing behind it, but if you are giving an excuse to say that one likes this because of the properties of it's meaning and said word does not properly describe what said meaning is, I find said name to be problematic.
<jgrant>It's to a point though, where I'll back down. It doesn't seem like I'm going to convince anyone on this matter, and I'll respect the name change enough to at least not actively bitch about it in here.
<jgrant>Or on the ML.
<davexunit>the pun is clearly there when read. not all wordplay works when spoken, and vice versa.
<davexunit>for the record, I liked your name suggestion more purely on the basis that it sounds better when spoken, but it's not a big deal to me.
<jgrant>davexunit: Well, it's clear if you know what the word is. Quixotic is not a very common word, exotic is marginally more so and too one who reads it and does not understand that context of Guix being french will likely think it's, like RMS suggested, a pun on exotic.
<jgrant>davexunit: That's the crux of the problem though, technical users don't care for the most part. They care about the technical aspects more, but too one needs to realize that we are in the wild minority of the core demographic -- such demographic is /all/ users.
<davexunit>civodul: great! that will be exciting when it becomes part of the guile distro. :)
<davexunit>jgrant: I'm aware that the demographic is everyone, but I think the name is the least of our worries for being accessible to all users.
<davexunit>I think the difficulty to install the distro for the average user is a far bigger issue.
<jgrant>davexunit: You'd be shocked. It's a huge barrier; This is why companies spend so much money on such things to make sure they have a name that's not revolting and at least "neutral".
<jgrant>davexunit: That's a triviality though; Fedora & Ubuntu have fantastic installers that anyone can figure out. Guixotic or whatever will have such an installer, this is not a huge selling point.
<jgrant>It's a whole lot of little things; Ultimately and ideally all these factors are irrelevant. /The/ selling point /should/ be that it's a free-software distribution.
<davexunit>the naming issue can surely be revisited when we have a "real" distro.
<jgrant>But doing things that potientally scare away this audience you are trying to bait in, it worries me.
<davexunit>I agree that marketing is important.
<jgrant>I really wouldn't care that much, if ultimately I didn't see Guixotic or whatever /needing/ to amass a bunch of users for the potiental of becoming "the" GNU Operating System.
<jgrant>If the end goal was just to be another GNU distro, whatever, anything goes. But actively trying to hit this goal, I don't see RMS budging without us being able to , with no hostility, cannibalize large factions of the existing distributions in this spectrum.
<davexunit>existing free software advocates tolerate a lot of questionable names :P
<jgrant>We have 3 distros that are even semi-popular.
<jgrant>Trisquel, Parabola, & gNewSense.
<jgrant>All three of these, I'd rank as less than painful.
<jgrant>Really, the only bordeline painful name of these three is gNewSense and they are barely hanging on.
<jgrant>Trisquel & Parabola are strongly established, in this particular field.
<jgrant>In any case, yeah, maybe I'll bring this up sometime later before 1.0 of Guix hits or something.
<jgrant>I'm either not making a very good case and/or people just don't care right now.
<DusXMT>jgrant: I thinkit's that we don't really have much to offer to the `casual desktop user' yet
<jgrant>DusXMT: That's not the point, if one is going through the effort of establishing branding for such a thing -- one is not likely to change the name of a distro once it's users get familar with it.
<jgrant>The end goal is to have a graphical installer and full DE for everyday users.
<jgrant>Say it takes a year to make a graphical installer and package GNOME, and a lot of technical users are used to "Guixotic", they aren't going to see the point of a name change and fill see it as frivolous. Which, I don't know, again it may be -- but from where I'm standing, that's not a name marketable to the non-technical masses.
<jgrant>But again, I've got drawn into this again like 2-3 times after I said I'm done.
<jgrant>So ... I'm stopping. I think I made it very clear that I have an issue, but again if this is "the way it is going to be for not at least" I can/will respect that.
<jgrant>Though I may play with and/or recycle the branding for Geist outside of the realm of direct Guix usage ... need to think on that.
<DusXMT>Don't you think a ghost would scare the users away? :)
<DusXMT>(not really serious, sorry)
<jgrant>I Scooby Doobey Do-not. :^P
<jgrant>It certainly can't be scarier that GhostScript's mascot.
***svetlana__ is now known as sveta
<civodul>good night/day!