IRC channel logs

<rryoumaa>i'm interested in the idea of a gnu distro, which i perhaps mistakenly thought was named gnu distro, which uses guix as its package manager. please correct my terminology. also, how long do you think it will be before this os will be a viable replacement for debian? i'm sort of thinking maybe it will have some fresh ideas and be the first thing i'd be possibly convinced to switch to after using debian and not rea

<rryoumaa>lly wanting to switch to anything else.

<marioxcc>What's "rea"?

<nully>its split

<nully>hi rryoumaa

<rryoumaa>hi

<nully>So from what i understand, yes you are right. The GUIX is just the packagemanager for the GNU OS

<tadni`>rryoumaa: "GNU Distro" in the terminology we are trying to push now, is just meaning "a GNU Distro" not "the GNU Distro" ... we really don't have a name for it and after a fair amount of talking, until RMS deems whats this system actually is in the context of GNU... we should probably push to say the "Guix Generated Distribution of GNU".

<tadni`>we are not trying to push*

<rryoumaa>ok... :)

<nully>thx tadni`

<rryoumaa>i, with absolutely no vested effort in the distro whatsoever, suggest the rapid adoption of a name :)

<tadni`>rryoumaa: In terms of viability to Debian, when we get 10x the user/developer base we have now. Best estimates for me, would be 2-3 years under /great/ conditions.

<rryoumaa>ok, that's what i was wanting to know

<tadni`>This includes, beeing deemed officially 'GNU' from RMS as a pre-req, in my eyes.

<tadni`>If we don't get this status, there will be growth -- I just don't think nearly as fast.

<tadni`>rryoumaa: "DAWN" Distro AWaiting a Name?

<rryoumaa>awesome!

<rryoumaa>reminiscent of twain

<rryoumaa>will it be less viable in use of nonfree? i think the only contrib and nonfree i have are virtualbox something or other and some gnu documentation that is considered nonfree by debian. and i want to have always zero binary blobs. but wonder if there will be things dfsg is ok with that it will not be ok with.

<tadni`>I forgot who came up with that, they made an abreviation close to Dawn. I suggested the refactor it to dawn and they made it work like that.

<tadni`>rryoumaa: What do you mean by less viable with non-free?

<marioxcc>rryoumaa: I think that the DFSG approves the Artistic License 1.0, but the FSF doesn't. It's really a crappy license.

<rryoumaa>well, i guess what i want is all of the advantages of debian i currently enjoy, including enormous main repo, etc. and debpony, of course.

<nully>yes, FSF and DFSG and OSI all have slightly different takes on what makes a valid `free software license'

<rryoumaa>so that means no perl will be in it?

<tadni`>rryoumaa: Be in what, the repo?

<rryoumaa>in dawn

<marioxcc>Debpony?.

<tadni`>rryoumaa: Be aware, GNU Dawn is my suggested joke title and not /the/ title.

<tadni`>There currently no title.

<tadni`>rryoumaa: I'm pretty sure there is already some perl in the distro, already.

<rryoumaa>quite aware

<rryoumaa>marioxcc: "i want a pony too"

<tadni`>rryoumaa: Just making sure, mark_weaver has gotten on me a bit for not being clear about this. :^)

<rryoumaa>are guix packages signed?

<tadni`>rryoumaa: Yeah.

<rryoumaa>hmm, maybe i should consider it as a second package source sometime then

<tadni`>Oh wait, I think they just have hashes.

<rryoumaa>(explanation of debpony: in colloquial english "i want a pony" means "i know i am demanding a lot" or something. it's humorous.)

<marioxcc>Ok.

<rryoumaa>i use emacs24-common-non-dfsg, emacs23-common-non-dfsg from debian nonfree. i am not as particular as debian when it comes to that; i just want the documentation.

<bwayne>hi. i'm attempting to install guix 0.8 in virtualbox. however i cannot find a network interface. virtualbox is set to use NAT.

<gry>bwayne: hi.

<bwayne>hello gry

<gry>bwayne: what are you getting an error message from, and what is the full error message?

<bwayne>one sec ...

<bwayne># dhclient eth0 --> "SIOCSIFADDR: No such device" " eth0: unknown interface: No such device"

<bwayne>can't find interaces in etc.

<bwayne>not sure where to go from here.

<gry>ok. I'm not sure either, but this information should help others to answer.

<bwayne>thx gry

<rekado>sneek: later tell tadni` Do you speak lojban?

<sneek>Okay.

<mark_weaver>bah, he left too soon

<mark_weaver>iyzsong: are you able to successfully start an xfce session in guix?

<Sleep_Walker>do I understand correctly, that the patch wasn't found?

<Sleep_Walker>guix/packages.scm:374:17: In procedure #<procedure 47c70c0 at guix/packages.scm:372:9 (number patch)>:

<Sleep_Walker>guix/packages.scm:374:17: Throw to key `match-error' with args `("match" "no matching pattern" #f)'.

<mark_weaver>sounds plausible

<mark_weaver>if you paste your package definition somewhere, I can take a look

<Sleep_Walker>mark_weaver: http://sprunge.us/POgH

<Sleep_Walker>I tried to upload it everywhere with no changes

<Sleep_Walker>I was able to find it with (search-patch ...) in Geiser

<mark_weaver>Sleep_Walker: so gnu/packages/patches/bullet-add-fPIC-into-flags.patch exists?

<Sleep_Walker>yes

<mark_weaver>this is in the directory that's referred to with GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH ?

<mark_weaver>it looks like GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH is not consulted when looking for patches

<Sleep_Walker>I put it everywhere

<Sleep_Walker>in /guix/extra, where my scm files go

<Sleep_Walker>in /usr/share/guile/site/2.0/ ... where guix is installed

<Sleep_Walker>~/.local/share/guix/... where I store it as well

<Sleep_Walker>environment has GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH set (and doesn't have the effect for patches)

<mark_weaver>can you try setting GUILE_LOAD_PATH such that $GUILE_LOAD_PATH/gnu/packages/patches/bullet-add-fPIC-into-flags.patch exists?

<mark_weaver>s/$GUILE_LOAD_PATH/DIR/ where DIR is in GUILE_LOAD_PATH

<Sleep_Walker>OK

<mark_weaver>most of the guix developers work out of a git checkout, so there are probably some rough edges around support for GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH.

<mark_weaver>this may be one of them

<Sleep_Walker>tcech@venom ~/tmp $ export GUILE_LOAD_PATH=/guix/extra

<Sleep_Walker>this worked

<Sleep_Walker>thanks

<mark_weaver>cool

<Sleep_Walker>so, I'll send another version of bullet during today :)

<mark_weaver>I'll file a bug report about it

<mark_weaver>sounds great!

*Sleep_Walker finally built efl yesterday

<Sleep_Walker>but there needs to be some changes to luajit as well

<Sleep_Walker>but this was something I fought yesterday before sleep :)

<Sleep_Walker>bbl and thanks again

<mark_weaver>good night! :)

<mark_weaver>thanks for your contributions!

<mark_weaver>Sleep_Walker: remember to remove that patch from all those other directories. it will probably cause problems later to leave those around if they become stale.

<iyzsong>mark_weaver: yes, I can start xfce, but missing various icons

<nkar>sneek: later tell bwayne it's getting renamed. dmesg | grep eth0 should list the name of interface

<sneek>Got it.

<Sleep_Walker>what exactly is native-inputs for?

<Sleep_Walker>build time dependencies which are not required during run time?

<iyzsong>native means will be run at build phase, inputs maybe foreign architecture for cross-build

<civodul>Hello Guix!

<civodul>iyzsong: FWIW, i'm planning to commit something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/+33MZ

<civodul>for the X login environment issue

<iyzsong>blocked by my country's firewall :(

<jmd>iyzsong: Which country?

<jmd>Use TOR!

<iyzsong>China here

<civodul>bah

<civodul>iyzsong: what about this: http://paste.aquilenet.fr/?6a4b0f64caf18ce2#LgLPO0bPAemed0yJVRgGR2bsoZrmYMrutfqAZ1BuHz0=

<civodul>requires JavaScript for decryption

<civodul>(but i second jmd, Tor may be helpful in this situation)

<iyzsong>same, server not found, and gists/dpaste are blocked too

<nkar>iyzsong: vps?

<iyzsong>nkar: look I have to get one :(

<civodul>iyzsong: well, i'll commit it, and then you can comment anyway :-)

<iyzsong>civodul: sure

<nkar>iyzsong: I've heard that it's trivial to bypass the firewall, not sure whether it's true or not

<civodul>the Internet really needs to be fixed

<iyzsong>nkar: yeh, I have a socks5 proxy at work, just too lazy setup myself

<nkar>:)

<iyzsong>indeed

<davexunit>morning #guix

<nkar>hi

<mark_weaver>good morning, Guix!

<Sleep_Walker>I'm still confused about dependencies - they are not transitional? (when A needs B and B needs C, do I need to express manually that A needs C?)

<davexunit>no.

<nkar>hi, mark_weaver!

<Sleep_Walker> http://sprunge.us/dVVb current efl.scm - elementary makes me repeat efl's dependencies...

<Sleep_Walker>fribidi, libpng, ...

<Sleep_Walker>I just stopped on repeating fontconfig...

<civodul>howdy davexunit & mark_weaver!

<civodul>Sleep_Walker: you should never need to repeat dependencies

<civodul>sometimes A.h #includes B.h

<mark_weaver>iyzsong: I also recommend trying Tor. it's fairly easy to set up from our system distribution. I just added (tor-service) to the 'services' in os-config.scm, and then in Icecat: press the Alt key by itself to show menubar, then Edit (menu) -> Preferences -> Advanced (icon) -> Network (tab) -> Settings (button). Click "Manual proxy configuration", then on "socks host" line: localhost port 9050, and click "SOCKS v5" button.

<civodul>Sleep_Walker: in that case A should lists be in 'propagated-inputs'

<mark_weaver>I cannot promise that it's a perfect setup, but maybe worth a try.

<iyzsong>mark_weaver: thanks, I'll try it next day :)

<davexunit>Sleep_Walker: I'm pretty much ready to merge your bullet package, but I don't think we need to use that patch file.

<mark_weaver>I'd like to try our xfce4, but I'm having trouble getting past an error dialog that shows up immediately on startup.

<nkar>iyzsong: but note that the tor project doesn't recommend to use vanilla firefox (or icecat, in our case). instead, they suggest to use tor browser

<mark_weaver>as I vaguely recall, the error dialog suggests that the problem may be that xfconfd (iirc?) is not running (dbus problem?), or that XDG_CONFIG_DIRS is not set properly.

<mark_weaver>I tried setting XDG_CONFIG_DIRS to $HOME/.guix-profile/etc, but that didn't help.

<iyzsong>mark_weaver: yes, you should set XDG_DATA_DIRS to xfce/share, and XDG_CONFIG_DIRS to xfce/etc/xdg

<nkar>iyzsong: also note that your isp will see that you're using tor (it may or may not be a problem)

<mark_weaver>iyzsong: thanks, will try!

<iyzsong>nkar: I'm sure that I'm not a problem for them

<Sleep_Walker>civodul: so dependencies are never analyzed automatically (lets say from reading which libraries dynamic loader needs, ...)

<Sleep_Walker>davexunit: can you do it without patch?

<davexunit>Sleep_Walker: yes

<davexunit>going to respond on list

<Sleep_Walker>davexunit: OK

<Sleep_Walker>thanks

<tadni_>Yah, yah, yah! TTY, based WM login! :^)

<sneek>Welcome back tadni_, you have 1 message.

<sneek>tadni_, rekado says: Do you speak lojban?

<civodul>Sleep_Walker: when a build succeeds, the daemon scans the resulting item(s) for references to other store items; and then, it stores the set of references in /var/guix/db/db.sqlite

<Sleep_Walker>I was thinking about the correct solution but this was the least intrusive change I could think of - you can change your CFLAGS and -fPIC will be added in the package - you can set in on command line, environment or even system-wide make configuration :)

<civodul>Sleep_Walker: not sure what the problem is, but it's the responsibility of the package's build system to use -fPIC when needed

<Sleep_Walker>civodul: ad dependencies - in my case it should be figured then automatically

<tadni_>Is sneek's function "later tell x" or "tell later x"?

<mark_weaver>iyzsong: I tried setting XDG_DATA_DIRS=$HOME/.guix-profile/share and XDG_CONFIG_DIRS=$HOME/.guix-profile/etc/xdg but still get the same error. did I misunderstand?

<tadni_>sneek: later tell tadni_ test

<sneek>Will do.

<tadni_>Okay, cool.

<sneek>Welcome back tadni_, you have 1 message.

<sneek>tadni_, tadni_ says: test

<iyzsong>mark_weaver: it work for me, could you ensure xfconfd is running, then paste xfconf-query's output?

<civodul>rekado: apologies for the negative reaction of Karl Berry on bug-gnulib, BTW

<tadni_>rekado: Hit and miss, I learn a little in my down-time and plan to continue to do so for the forseeable future -- though it's not a strong focus atm, it is something I fully support and would like to see grow more in the future. But my nick, literally has the relationship of "student/studier" in Lojban, so yeah, I have some vested interest. :^)

<Sleep_Walker>civodul: ad -fPIC - you mean that patching should not be needed? is build system aware of all CFLAGS?

<davexunit>Sleep_Walker: you can add a phase to the build system that sets the necessary flags.

<mark_weaver>iyzsong: oh, so I have to start xfconfd myself? I thought maybe startxfce4 would handle that. how best to start that daemon?

<civodul>Sleep_Walker: by "build system" i meant the makefiles of the software you're trying to package; they're supposed to use -fPIC if that's needed (if they're broken, we can patch them as davexunit notes)

<iyzsong>mark_weaver: it can auto started by dbus session daemon, when dbus-daemon --session run with the XDG_DATA_DIRS.

<Sleep_Walker>davexunit: the thing is that I want only add flag and I'm not even aware of all the places where FLAGS could be set

<davexunit>civodul: Sleep_Walker used a patch file to do it.

<davexunit>I think that a new build phase would be better.

<iyzsong>mark_weaver: yes, I think startxfce4 should handle that.

<mark_weaver>iyzsong: ah, I guess I need to add it to the 'dbus-service' list of my os-config.scm ?

<mark_weaver>also, I didn't install xfconf in my profile. that might be a problem.

*mark_weaver tries

<iyzsong>mark_weaver: no, it's dbus's session daemon, run by user, started by dbus-launch of xinitrc of xfce4-session.

<mark_weaver>should I run dbus-launch myself from ~/.xsession, or will xfce4-session handle it? maybe installing xfconf to my profile will be enough?

<iyzsong>mark_weaver: yes, I think install dbus,xfconf,xfce4-session,xfwm4,xfdesktop,xfce4-panel,exo,thunar should work.

<mark_weaver>iyzsong: thanks, will try!

<tadni_>How would one download and install, all packages in a module? Like I assume we have a xfce4.scm, could we just instruct Guix to download everything in there?

<civodul>not from the command line

<iyzsong>how about make a meta/union package?

<tadni_>iyzsong: I'm personally not vested in xfce at all, I just think it'd be an interesting feature.

<mark_weaver>iyzsong: it worked, thanks!! :)

<mark_weaver>iyzsong: yes, I think that would be helpful

<tadni_>civodul: Is there a way to download everything that matches like a certain part of a string? Like "guix package -i xfce*"?

<mark_weaver>or at least an idea. I'd be curious what civodul thinks about this.

<mark_weaver>tadni_: that might be too blunt of a tool.

<davexunit>iyzsong: a union package sounds like a good idea

<mark_weaver>when our distro gets large enough, it will probably include something you didn't want.

<davexunit>or a package with the trivial build system that propagates all the inputs xfce

<davexunit>inputs of xfce*

<tadni_>I guess we could just have a de-metapackages.sm or something similar? :^P

<tadni_>*.scm

<civodul>mark_weaver, iyzsong: i don't know about xfce specifically, but if a union package is helpful, then yes, let's do that

<civodul>as with 'gcc-toolchain'

<iyzsong>ah, ok

<tadni_>Is xfce a proper DE? I've heard it claimed, never used it.

<iyzsong>davexunit: propagates can have same effect as union?

<davexunit>iyzsong: they're different.

<davexunit>but I believe they have the same effect when installed

*tadni_ needs a testbox with more power! :^)

<tadni_>Pulling after a week of not, is taking 20+ minutes thusfar.

<mark_weaver>iyzsong: thank you do much for giving us our first proper DE! this is wonderful!! :)

<tadni_>mark_weaver: We've had Emacs for ever now though. :^)

<iyzsong>mark_weaver: ah, I'm glad to be useful :)

<mark_weaver>tadni_: yes, XFCE is a proper DE, IMO. e.g. many people who don't like GNOME 3 have switched to it (although I personally like GNOME 3)

<mark_weaver>(although of course, there are things about GNOME 3 which I don't like, but generally I like it)

<tadni_>Hm, so I'm assuming we don't have a /just/ "xfce" package expression right now? It might be a good idea to standardize the idea that a de's "straight name" would be a metapackage that would download that whole desktop.

<tadni_>So "gnome" would be a meta-package that installs the whole default GNOME desktop, and etc, etc.

<mark_weaver>tadni_: yes, a meta-package would be a good idea.

<mark_weaver>and indeed, installing xfce* doesn't even get everything you need.

<tadni_>Hm, (exec-from-login-shell) is spitting an unbound var, when I try to reconfig my config.scm.

<iyzsong>davexunit: yes, propagated-inputs does works, thx

<iyzsong>there still have many things missing for Xfce, I'm working on xfce4-terminal, hope get it next day

<mark_weaver>civodul: fwiw, I suggest that we make xfce4 the default X session for now. IMO, it will be much more approachable to newcomers.

<tadni_>Yup, missing something here with this service.

<mark_weaver>or at least provide an easy way to do it.

<mark_weaver>well, it's an idea anyway. I'm open to other ideas :)

<mark_weaver>I suppose windowmaker has the advantage of being (sort of) a GNU package.

*mark_weaver goes afk for a while

<tadni_>Yeah, (exec-from-login-shell ratpoison) & (exec-from-login-shell xsession) both say there is an unbound variable.

<tadni_>Wait a minute ...

<tadni_>Ah, never mind to the wait a minute. I thought I may not have had the xorg service module eval'd. That's not the case, it is. Still have no idea what the issue would be.

<tadni_>Eh, I'll probably take a nap and either figure it out myself or pester someone in here for help more later. :^)

<mark_weaver>tadni_: fwiw, my current solution is to put "#!/run/current-system/profile/bin/bash" --login at the top of my .xsession, and your could "exec ratpoison" from there.

<mark_weaver>tadni_: I meant to write "#!/run/current-system/profile/bin/bash --login"

<mark_weaver>I agree that civodul's solution is nicer, but I haven't tried it yet.

<mark_weaver>has anyone had luck running pingus?

<davexunit>mark_weaver: I've had trouble running any game.

<davexunit>need to investigate more.

<civodul>mark_weaver: i agree that having xfce as the default is a good idea

<mark_weaver>cool :)

<mark_weaver>windowmaker was okay, but it had some problems that were getting on my nerves. I'm _much_ happier with xfce.

<mark_weaver>iyzsong is my new hero :)

<mark_weaver>most notably, I don't like windowmaker's Alt-Tab mechanism. since it doesn't show me the windows as I'm hitting Tab, when I had more than 2 or 3 windows it was hard to find the one I was looking for that way.

<davexunit>agreed

<davexunit>that was frustrating

<davexunit>iyzsong has been doing really great work.

<DusXMT>Hmm, in Gentoo, it does show what you're switching to, and it even has a couple neat animations

<nkar>on master, the prompt now looks like -bash-4.3$ instead of user@machine$. has anything changed recently, or did I misconfigure something?

<mark_weaver>nkar: I think the PS1 setting was moved from a system-level file (/etc/profile maybe?) to the default user dot files.

<mark_weaver>nkar: look in /etc/skel/.* and update your dot files accordingly.

<nkar>mark_weaver: okay, I'll take a look

<nkar>another question: cryptsetup prompt gets hidden by the boot log, so I have to press RET to see it. any idea how to solve this without disabling logging?

<teebeewantsu>hi. i'm attempting to install guix 0.8 in virtualbox. however i cannot find a network interface. virtualbox is set to use NAT.

<teebeewantsu># dhclient eth0 --> "SIOCSIFADDR: No such device" " eth0: unknown interface: No such device"

<mark_weaver>teebeewantsu: the interfaces are named differently than you're used to, because we use eudev, gentoo's udev fork. udev is now part of systemd.

<mark_weaver>teebeewantsu: I forget what's available on the install system, but maybe "ifconfig -a" or "ip addr" will show you the names?

<nkar>teebeewantsu: dmesg | grep eth0

<teebeewantsu>nkar: you found it. 'renamed network interface eth0 to enps0s3'

<mark_weaver>ah yes, thanks nkar

<nkar>that's because I got hit by it some time ago, too

<nkar>:)

<nkar>teebeewantsu: also, don't hardcode anywhere enps0s3 either since it'll probably get renamed when you install guix

<teebeewantsu>nkar: noted

<mark_weaver>nkar: will it? I thought the purpose of those longer names was to be more stable.

<mark_weaver>I confess I haven't used the guix installer since we switched to eudev, so I wouldn't know.

<nkar>mark_weaver: mine got renamed to ens2

<mark_weaver>nkar: okay

<nkar>after the installation

<teebeewantsu>sweet! got the guix pull happenin.

<civodul>nkar: thanks for testing the separate-/boot patch!

<th3kent>civodul: just saw your reply to bug#19248. i did start afresh and re-formatted my h.d.d, and re-installed. but i always get a kernel panic. although i get the message "Entering new prompt ...", i never get a guile prompt, as the kernel panic occurs immediately after. so, i don't know. am out of ideas too.

<civodul>th3kent: are you sure the root partition has the label "root"?

<civodul>the config you posted a while back uses that label

<nkar>civodul: thanks for writing the patch :)

*mark_weaver packages xfce4-battery-plugin

<mark_weaver>ah, the xfce4-panel is only looking in it's own /gnu/store directory for plugins.

<mark_weaver>I wonder if there's an environment variable setting for that.

*davexunit builds guix for the first time in awhile

<mark_weaver>looks like there's no environment variable. time to hack one in.

<civodul>heh

<mark_weaver>nix has already gone through this: http://lists.science.uu.nl/pipermail/nix-dev/2012-October/009920.html

<mark_weaver> http://lists.science.uu.nl/pipermail/nix-dev/2012-October/009954.html

<mark_weaver> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5455

<mark_weaver>sorry, too many links. I'll investigate more silently now.

<mark_weaver>I don't like the solution adopted in nix. They search for plugins only in /run/current-system/sw

IRC channel logs

2014-12-13.log