<Sleep_Walker>Enlightenment and EFL is IIRC one of important parts of their Tizen <zacts>I'm motivated to start contributing to Guix and Dragora <zacts>I'm just waiting for finals to be over this Monday <nkar>since user groups are specified in the config file, does it mean that I need to reboot just to add a user to a group? <nkar>I can't check the above right now, but it doesn't sound that great... <jmd>Building guix-0.8.0: <jmd>3085: 6 [#<procedure 4fcf00 at ice-9/boot-9.scm:3066:17 ()>] <jmd> ?: 5 [primitive-load-path "guix/store" ...] <jmd> 393: 2 [eval #<memoized memoize> ()] <jmd> ?: 1 [memoize-variable-access! #<memoized memoize> #<directory # 495558>] <jmd>In ice-9/boot-9.scm: <jmd> 104: 0 [#<procedure 290700 at ice-9/boot-9.scm:95:6 (thrown-k . args)> unbound-variable ...] <jmd>ice-9/boot-9.scm:104:20: In procedure #<procedure 290700 at ice-9/boot-9.scm:95:6 (thrown-k . args)>: <jmd>ice-9/boot-9.scm:104:20: Unbound variable: memoize <jmd>Makefile:3874: recipe for target 'guix/download.go' failed <mark_weaver>nkar: no, you don't need to reboot. just run 'guix system reconfigure my-config.scm" *Sleep_Walker likes colors *mark_weaver runs most of his shells in emacs, using M-x shell ***Svetlana|2 is now known as gry
<Sleep_Walker>I guess I'll do that in future too, once I get better in Guile and Elisp <Sleep_Walker>btw. I haven't found any package with basic CAs to trust <jmd>Sleep_Walker: I dunno, but I suggest that by default nobody should be trusted. The user should decide who she wants to trust. ***th3kent`` is now known as th3kent
<Sleep_Walker>jmd: I'm afraid that this may be worse and less secure option than provide some generally acknowledged <DusXMT>Sleep_Walker: There is no single standard CA certificate bundle, the team hasn't yet decided which one it will follow <DusXMT>If I remember correctly, the plan was to use the one from Icecat <nkar>andrew lewman wrote a blog post about CAs some time ago. it should be somewhere on lewman.is and might be of interest <tadni>jgay: mattl: It's a gaggle of FSF Staff, from Christmas past and present! Come here to teach me the listen what the world would of been like without Free Software. <tadni>*Title Card* A GNU+Linux Story. <Sleep_Walker>which is the right configuration choice to set where the guix will store it's data? <Sleep_Walker>I have collision between installed version and pulled version in Gentoo <nkar>you want to set localstatedir? <nkar>if so, the default is --localstatedir=/var <tadni>Someone suggested to me "Geist" for a possible distro name, I just added it to the wiki page for "A reference to SICP, a collection of spirits/processes living in the machine". <nkar>tadni: I love it! it sounds good, has a story behind it, and also starts with a "g" <nkar>I think it's the best one <tadni>There's the whole list so far, people feel free to add a name and explanation -- but finals week starts tomorrow ... so I'll be too busy till probably Thursday, to poll more people for suggestions. <tadni>nkar: But yeah, I really like that one. <tadni>It's a nice nod to Scheme, but too is generic enough that applies to all processes which make up said distribution. <nkar>later tell civodul I really like this: <tadni> Someone suggested to me "Geist" for a possible distro name, I just added it to the wiki page for "A reference to SICP, a collection of spirits/processes living in the machine". <nkar>sneek: later tell civodul I really like this: <tadni> Someone suggested to me "Geist" for a possible distro name, I just added it to the wiki page for "A reference to SICP, a collection of spirits/processes living in the machine". <tadni>Have we got any word back from RMS on any of this? <tadni>Man, I just imaged searched for "GNU Ghost" and the ghostscript logo came up. That's terrifying. <tadni>Oh, Guix:Wishlist was featured on Libreplanet in October? <Sleep_Walker>what would be the best way to add suid bit for binary in package? <Sleep_Walker>I'm looking in section 4.2 - GNU build system phases and none of them fits <Sleep_Walker>maybe I could do that in strip or patch-shebangs phases, but it's quite ugly... <Sleep_Walker>or I should redefine install phase to do make install and chown? <mark_weaver>Sleep_Walker: see section 6.2.7 of the guix manual (Setuid programs) <Sleep_Walker>mark_weaver: so I have to allow it for each file manually? <Sleep_Walker>without any hint that package may require that to work correctly? <davexunit>Sleep_Walker: I don't know much about it, but look at how things were done for sudo. <davexunit>Sleep_Walker: may I ask what the utility of having dwm packaged for guix is when the standard customization procedure for it is to tweak config.h and recompile? <Sleep_Walker>for dwm I altered configuration (and it was already there), I locally inherited most of the package <Sleep_Walker>for slock and dmenu I don't do any configuration changes - I'm happy with that as it is <davexunit>ah, so you inherit from the upstream dwm and apply your own tweaks? <Sleep_Walker>in openSUSE I maintain packages, which install sources and are compiled after installation <Sleep_Walker>but there could be build system ready for patch derivations <Tsutsukakushi>booted to guix for the first time, the installation was far less painfull on system where the usb isn't the sda <sneek>Welcome back civodul, you have 2 messages. <sneek>civodul, nkar says: I really like this: <tadni> Someone suggested to me "Geist" for a possible distro name, I just added it to the wiki page for "A reference to SICP, a collection of spirits/processes living in the machine". <tadni`>civodul: Yeah, Hal Abelson calls processes the "spirits that live in the machine" or something similar. <tadni`>"We are about to study the idea of a computational process. Computational processes are abstract beings that inhabit computers. As they evolve, processes manipulate other abstract things called data. The evolution of a process is directed by a pattern of rules called a program. People create programs to direct processes. In effect, we conjure the spirits of the computer with our spells." - <tadni`>civodul: Do we have any more recent news about RMS on the topic of the GNU Distro? <civodul>no; he seemed to drop the ball so i pinged him again, to which he said he was busy giving a number of speeches <civodul>we'll have to be a little more patient <tadni`>civodul: Okay; That's fair. Just wanted to see what, if anything, has happened thusfar. Because I'm going to be afk Monday till probably Thursday or Friday. <civodul>my understanding was that last week he wanted a quick settlement, but not so much now <civodul>the good news is that we can keep up the good hack in the meantime ;-) <tadni`>civodul: Well, it's a tough situation on all fronts. Obviously, we are going to want to push to just be deemed the canonical implementation to even the official "GNU Operating System" -- but if RMS doesn't want to give any one variant of GNU special treatment over the other ... then I don't see this likely. <civodul>yeah i know, that would be a bit disappointing <civodul>but that's not something we can influence much, and life goes on anyway <tadni`>civodul: Well, the good news is though that even if we have to go the "just another distro" route for now, I'm hopeful that a few years down the line -- assuming that we have amassed a notable and/or large userbase, at least compared to the other Free Software Distributions. Namely Trisquel, gNewSense, and Parabola ... I can see a possibility that RMS might side with us in this sense. GNU Distro might have a lot of potential, but until <tadni`>we get some solid results from the larger Free Software community, I don't think RMS will be persuaded by promises, but results. <tadni`>But yeah, ultimately; It's not like we have to be stagnant because RMS doesn't appoint such a status to use. We can and should work to get it to be the most attractive Free GNU distribution out there. <tadni`>And things should, at some point, all fall together. <Sleep_Walker>before will guix be promoted as the right solution by GNU for people, could you learn deco to list known services? <civodul>right, that's what we should be working on <tadni`>Right now though, even if we could get "special status" by just spliting the GNU Distro up in a seperate table from the 3rd-party distros on free-distros.html; I'd be happy. But I can't see that happenning too, right now. :^P <civodul>the output is a bit rough on the edges <Sleep_Walker>I almost went crazy trying to figure out, how to restart xorg <tadni`>Sleep_Walker: I mean, ultimately we are still in "Alpha" phases in-terms of the actual Distro. <tadni`>I think maybe by Guix 1.0, then we could declare the distro Beta. :^P <civodul>Sleep_Walker: "deco restart xorg-server" <civodul>Sleep_Walker: i think there are bits of that in guix.info and dmd.info, but that may need to be made more prominent, i guess <Sleep_Walker>after studying scheme sources and trying random words from that file <tadni`>I'm very hopeful for GNU Distro though. Really, GNU Distro has re-placed my faith back into the GNU Project -- to a very large degree. <civodul>oh, i see that "Services" doesn't even mention it <civodul>at least a paragraph there would be helpful <Tsutsukakushi>the distro name could also be guixote, play with guix and quixote, the giant it's fighting is proprietary software <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: Something similar to that is actually on the wiki. <nkar>civodul: seen my reply on the bug tracker? <tadni`>"Guixotic - Combines Guix with the word exotic. Also happens to look a lot like the word quixotic, which means "exceedingly idealistic; unrealistic and impractical" which might be a nice little jab at ourselves. " <Tsutsukakushi>the logo could be either gnu with a lance or guix logo with a lance <nkar>mark_weaver: quick status update regarding coq. I ended up building the latest ocaml, which doesn't pass some tests, and camlp5. in a few minutes, I'll try to disable the testsuite and build coq using the mentioned versions <nkar>you can donate your time <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: It is so hard to find a proper image of this for you. <nkar>Tsutsukakushi: proprietary software exists because people write it (they're getting paid to do it). if you want more free software, you need to write it or pay someone to do it. since you cannot donate money, you're left with the first option. <nkar>rms often says that gnu needs more people reversing things. you could try to learn reverse engineering <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: My main issue with Guixote, is the same one with Guixotic. It sounds very odd and I think it may lead to some people mispronuncing Guix, more than they already do. :^P <nkar>Tsutsukakushi: I don't really believe that it would make a huge difference, but it certainly better than doing nothing. <tadni`>I like the actual meaning behind Guixote, but in-terms of branding -- it's not great. <Tsutsukakushi>people could also think that someone just misspelled quixote <civodul>Tsutsukakushi: i agree it'd be useful to have mandb in the default set of packages; i'll change that <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: The problem therein is too, I don't believe most people would know what Quixote proper is. <Tsutsukakushi>it's kinda hard to use new software like guix without a manual <tadni`>There's a kind of "first experience" principle in marketing and ideally, you want something that someone has to think a whole bunch about worrying about pronuncing. <Tsutsukakushi>you want them to think about the pronounciation or you don't? <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: I would be very shocked if anyone one in my immediadate family, knew that word, except maybe my sister. <tadni`>If it happened to flow a lot better, than yeah, I would want people to. The issue is, that while the two things are spelled very similarly, they aren't pronoucned so. And this is not a common word -- that I'm aware of, that a lot of people already know. So they not only would not likely get the reference, but trying to pronounce the word itself and/or mentioning to others in public without getting strange looks from the name alone is <tadni`>It's very easy to turn off new users ... especially non-technical users of of software, with marketing that is deemed to weird or off the wall. <Tsutsukakushi>if i'm speaking finnish i'll never pronounce guix as geeks because people would search geeks and that wouldn't benefit the project in any way <Tsutsukakushi>as finn people worrying about pronounciation always makes me roll my eyes <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: Well, if you pronounce "Guix" in the American English view, Guixotic totatly doesn't work verbably. <Tsutsukakushi>in grand scheme of things the pronounciation doesn't really matter <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: I don't think so. Branding is one of the important things, for software sucess, when you are marketing to /everyone/. <tadni`>If the goal was to just get technical users, I wouldn't have an issue. <Tsutsukakushi>you could make it an issue if it was just the technical users because they are the ones who care <tadni`>The thing is, that ultimately, we would want as many people interesed in Free Software as possible to use such a system. So not scaring them off, is a big deal. <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: The general user won't know Guix exists. <tadni`>The general user, if they go to download GNU Distro -- will know of the distro's name. <tadni`>And if it seems scary and uninviting, this is an issue. <Tsutsukakushi>just a minute ago you were worried what the general user thinks in the future <Tsutsukakushi>and now it's just those who would download free distribution this day <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: So, are we going to name the distro something now -- and change the name when we have a Graphical installer and GNOME packaged? <tadni`>It absolutely matters what we name it now, because unless we change it in the future, it's has an effect. <tadni`>What do you mean, what's the hurry? <tadni`>Until we start saying this is "stable" 1.0 distro territory, it's not. <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: I'm not worked up. <Tsutsukakushi>i talked to this 88 year old woman quite recently when i was fixing her computer <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: Also fyi, regarding the Finnish pronounciations -- it's been noted and declared somewhere (forgot where) that the GNU project official Language is English. We provide traslations to other languages, but unless a project specifies it's name to be in a differens language -- we use the American English pronunciation. <Tsutsukakushi>and she called linux linus but that's ok, at least she knew what it was <Tsutsukakushi>that was just to say that you can't please everyone, there'll always be someone who doesn't like the name or to whom it'll seem unintuitive <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: Anyone older than 70, I think is out of the core demographic of most computer usage. <Tsutsukakushi>this woman was using skype daily and did a lot of stuff on her computer <tadni`>If you want to go the higher, more safe marker, over 85, is not in the key demographic of computer user marketing. <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: Age based demographics. <tadni`>Not a lot of marketing is aimed at them, 85+, because it's an edge case, for seniors to be using a computer regularly. <tadni`>Age absolutely matters, when it comes to marketing. <tadni`>When you group up in a certain era, certain things get cemented into you of your likes and dislikes./ <tadni`>It's why when we get older, we are apt to look down on what the younger generations are doing. <tadni`>Because it's not what we grew up with and/or are used to. <tadni`>Growing up in a certain culture and/or time, has a major impact on what marketing appeals to a person. <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: It's what they will teach you in any marketing class, and partially in stats. <Tsutsukakushi>if you treat them like regular human being you'll notice they are just that <mark_weaver>tadni`, please stop trying to be our marketing manager, it's wearing thin. <tadni`>I'm saying, marketing does matter. <tadni`>I'm not arguing what we should or should do. <tadni`>I'm saying that such a thing is important and reflects on us, for better or worse. <Tsutsukakushi>marketing should be focused towards computer users with different level of understanding instead of age groups imo <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: The problem is, that age demographics does matter -- and I'm saying that because someone is 85 and using a computer. They are not the average case and due to life expereience outside the range of what a vast majority of other, regular computer users have experienced, they will likely be even less effected by any marketing. <tadni`>mark_weaver: It is frustrating, that I'm being made out to be as-if I'm actively pushing an agenda. <mark_weaver>maybe we should create a new channel #guix-marketing for these discussions. <tadni`>I'm not even fundementally opposed to "Guixotic", I just seeing it be problematic in a few ways. And the response to such critcisms being "well, I don't think it really matters" get's me annoyed. Free Software has a notriously bad relationship with marketing and I think it's one of our biggest problems, and it being pushed under the rug as irrelevant ... is very scary to me. <mark_weaver>I appreciate that you're trying to help us, but I feel overwhelmed with the quantity of thoughts from you on this subject lately. <civodul>tadni`: it's an important topic, but it should not hide the more important topic of how to get things done <mark_weaver>if everyone with an opinion on what we're doing wrong filled the channel up this much, we wouldn't be able to talk about anything useful. <tadni`>civodul: I mean, I really kinda wish that we wouldn't even worry about a name at all and just keep releasing as "gnu-usb" until we hit stable ... then worry about it. Even then, until we get a graphical installer and possibly GNOME. <Tsutsukakushi>someone who is 85 can be the average case or they can be someone with more knowledge than most people here <Tsutsukakushi>full channel is far better than a dead, complaining about channel having activity makes absolutely no sense <mark_weaver>this channel had plenty of activity before this new subject <tadni`>Tsutsukakushi: Yes, someone who is 85 can be. The point is, statistically, it's not very likely at all for them to be well versed in computers. That is all irrelevant though, the reason you brought her up was that she called Linux, Linus. <nkar>tadni`: I agree with mark. I don't mind a couple off-topic messages, but the above is too much <nkar>how about #guix-blah (similar to #haskell-blah)? <Sleep_Walker>I have issue with X emacs (without -nw) leading to crash because missing dbus <tadni`>mark_weaver: I mean, it's not really detracting from the channel -- sans it's annoying for some people. I haven't seen anyone ask anything technical or try to speak of something technical within the realm of this chat. That being said, I don't think we should split the chat up until/if we have a formal release of the distro, and/or we formally release a marketing team. We just really shouldn't talk about it until we know what RMS's <tadni`>view. And even then, it's irrelevant until we hit a stable release ... I just again, get a bit heated, when the notion of marketing is viewed as "irrelevant". <tadni`>Sleep_Walker: You need to start the dbus service. <Tsutsukakushi>irc is just more suited to this type of off-topicy discussions than <nkar>marketing team? are you serious? <Tsutsukakushi>if someone doesn't like it then there are always the mailing lists <tadni`>nkar: Every other big distro has one. <tadni`>There's tangiable benifits to such a thing. <tadni`>civodul: You have to add (gnu services dbus) to your usemodules in your config, and then add (dbus-service '()) to your (service (cons* (insert-service-here) %base-services)) <civodul>yes, for instance: (cons* (avahi-service) (dbus-service (list avahi)) %base-services) <mark_weaver>I'm not sure it's a coincidence that the amount of technical discussion dropped significantly around the same time that it started being flooded by tadni's thoughts on marketing. <tadni`>mark_weaver: And funny is it, when technical discussion gets brought back up -- we stop. :^P <tadni`>But yeah, this is getting childish. <Tsutsukakushi>tadni`: join #guix-blah for future non-technical guix discussion <mark_weaver>I don't mind some off-topic discussion on this channel, it's just the sheer quantity of it lately that's getting on my nerves. <tadni`>Well, it's not really offtopic... it's not technical discussion/. <tadni`>It's not really fair to call such conversation, off-topic, when it is directly in-regards to GNU Distro -- which for the time being, is directly tied to Guix. <mark_weaver>Tsutsukakushi: the "nature of irc" varies from channel to channel. I expect #emacs to be flooded with off topic discussion. <tadni`>It's fine, if we/people don't want policy dicussion and/or anything not regarding technical discussion in #guix, but let's not act as if we were talking about ponies and scittles. <mark_weaver>In the years I've been following them, #guile and #guix have had a much higher signal to noise ratio, which enables us to consistently read the backlogs and answer people's questions, and have useful technical discussions. <mark_weaver>doing that on #emacs would be hopeless. I'd rather not see this channel end up that way. <Tsutsukakushi> Well maybe nature of instant messaging. It's easiee to get off the tracks <tadni`>mark_weaver: Again, that's fine if there's a rather strong agreement with strong Guix contributors that they want such a thing preferably seperated -- but again, let's not compare use to being actually offtopic. #emacs is often actually offtopic, it is very rare, very rare in here. <mark_weaver>tadni`: I will acknowledge that it's not entirely off topic, and I certainly welcome thoughts on related topics like how best to market ourselves. again, it's the sheer quantity of discussion about it, and the fact that it's been dominated by one person's thoughts, that I find problematic. <tadni`>mark_weaver: Well, regarding being dominated by one's persons thoughts. I got ragged on for trying to get conversation from others about why they disliked GNUDistro. I was actively looking for other people's thoughts on the topic. This is the /only/ other conversation that I am aware of that has droned on to this point. <mark_weaver>but if the majority of guix contributors disagree with me, then I'd just give up on trying to keep up with this channel. <civodul>it's just that we need to leave space for technical discussions <civodul>it's fine to have this sort of discussion once in a while tadni`, but we have to make sure not to overwhelm people <civodul>it's primarily a channel for technical discussions <Tsutsukakushi>It's not taking anything from the technical discussion if they aren't going on at the same time <civodul>well, it may make it more difficult, dunno <tadni`>civodul: I'm going to leave it up to your call; do you think we need a seperate channel for such a thing? The only real reason that this discussion lasted this long, is that I think Tsutsukakushi got a tad bit deffensive when I stated my concerns about Guixote as a name. And that led to me getting mad, that the whole notion that 'marketing really isn't important' is still so prevelant in FOSS. <mark_weaver>it takes away in two respects: (1) if someone asks a technical question in the middle of such a discussion, those of us who might be able to answer question later are likely to never see the question, because it's buried in noise that we don't have the interest to wade though. <mark_weaver>and (2) I think that many people are inhibited by starting discussion if there's already a high-bandwidth one taking place on channel. <nkar>for example, I recently asked civodul: "seen my reply on the bug tracker?", which wasn't noticed <nkar>presumable because of the noise <civodul>tadni`: it's fine to use this channel only if this is kept lower-bandwidth than over the last hours, if you ask me <tadni`>Again, I'm fine with seperating the two. I want to hear civodul's blessing on the topic, but I don't think such conversations are that likely to spring up now based on this. <civodul>if more bandwidth is needed, then better use a separate channel <civodul>and the topic here could invite people to do that <Tsutsukakushi>tadni`: I don't mind if you don't like the idea. I just think you care too much about the pronounciation <civodul>i really want to be able to write tests of all that <civodul>we have most of what's needed to do that, but i need to wrap my head around it <nkar>civodul: one of the ocaml tests just timeouts, how do I debug? <nkar>the funny thing it's the test of the debugger :) <civodul>nkar: try building with -K, and see if the problem is still there when running from the failed build tree <civodul>if it is, use whatever debugging techniques you may find :-) <nkar>not very promising, but okay :) <civodul>(which reminds me i'm supposed to look at this scary libtool upgrade) <tadni`>Ultimately, the reason that such a thing was discussed as much as it has been for two reasons. One, we didn't have a formal status from RMS -- so people were speculating and trying to come up with solutions. But too, we have and were polling for names in a list. This is not going to be the long-term state of communication in this chat, I think most people will be over it in a week or-so, unless RMS gives us the red-light. <tadni`>This latest conversation though, I will take full fault for questioning. <tadni`>It was not by tasked job to question/criticize suggestions people had. <tadni`>I was tasked with collecting names, for the wiki. 
