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<tadni`>davexunit: Speak of the devil.
*civodul → zZz
<jxself>davexunit is a devil?
<tadni`>civodul: Peace. o/
<jxself>And he puts civodul to sleep?
<civodul>good night/day!
*Sleep_Walker feels like booting today ;b
<tadni`>davexunit: Want to put your name on this define-syntax-rule patch, for use-xxx-modules?
<davexunit>tadni`: oh you wrote the patch? excellent!
<davexunit>is it on the ML?
<tadni`>davexunit: Nah, I'm working on it now. It's really trivial -- as-per, civ's suggestion. He basically just wants me to throw it in (gnu).
<davexunit>yes, that's where I thought it should go.
<davexunit>I just never got around to doing it (and documenting it :x)
<tadni`>davexunit: If you want to, go for it, it's like 2 minutes of work -- sans adding actual documentation.
<davexunit>I think you should write the patch :)
<tadni`>If not, I'll be glad to post a patch -- and you can take it over somehow... not sure how that works.
<davexunit>you can just add "Co-Authored-By: David Thompson <>" in the commit message
<tadni`>davexunit: Ah, good idea! Going to scratch that down.
<tadni`>I don't think I'll get it done tonight, I'm in that twilight zone of near passing out ... but if not, I'm really going to try for Thursday.
<davexunit>sounds good :)
*jxself plays the theme music from The Twilight Zone
*Sleep_Walker does happy dance
<Sleep_Walker>I'm in!
<tadni`>jxself: It is very weird, because I keep on bouncing back and forth between almost passing out and being wide awake. I've had no real sugar or caffine today... so, not sure what's up. Got maybe 2 hours of sleep, last night though.
<jxself>Perhaps it's time to sleep then.
<tadni`>jxself: It's 5pm here, so a bit too early. Maybe in 2 hours, but probably more like 3.
<jxself>I couild not work on 2 hours of sleep. I need 8.
<jxself>I got a little under 6 last night and feel so tired already.
*tadni` is a chronic insomniac.
<tadni`>Luckily, I'm pretty sure I got that 6 hour gene, for sleep.Because if I can get 6, I'm golden. Really If I can get 4 -- I'm pretty good.
<mitc0185>if I boot up from the usb image, am I able to install new packages over the network?
<mitc0185>or do I need to install to the machine first?
<tadni`>mitc0185: Yes, you can install to that current session.
<tadni`>It doesn't get saved to the actual usb though.
<mitc0185>ok, I installed wpa-supplicant, however it doesn't seem to be available
<mitc0185>where would that have been installed? Do I need to add something to the PATH?
<tadni`>mitc0185: Check that in your current /gnu/store/ I'd assume?
<tadni`>In /gnu/store, "ls | grep wpa-supplicant" or some variant thereof.
<mitc0185>tadni`: no dice. Just the files that were used during the install process
<mitc0185>with a big hash in them
<mitc0185>in the filename that is
<tadni`>Hm, not sure where that would be stored. I know I installed emacs before in a GNU Distro session, non-installed and booted erc from it...
<tadni`>mitc0185: Yeah, all files in that directory should have a hash prefacing the program and/or general config's name.
<davexunit>mitc0185: is wpa-supplicant in your profile?
<davexunit>find ~/.guix-profile -name wpa-supplicant
<mitc0185>davexunit: no
<davexunit>mitc0185: what is the command you used when you tried to install it? 'guix package -i wpa-supplicant' ?
<tadni`>mitc0185: Did you manually connect to eth0?
<mitc0185>tadni`: no, I used dhclient
<davexunit>mitc0185: and you ran that as the current user? not root or something?
<mitc0185>but I did an ifconfig enp9s0 up first
<mitc0185>enp9s0 is the name of my interface
<tadni`>When, I meant "manual" in the sense of not expecting the box to do it for you. :^P
<mitc0185>davexunit: ran as root
<mitc0185>tadni`: I configured the interface first
<tadni`>We just got a dhcp-service a few weeks ago.
<tadni`>And it's not on by default. :^P
<davexunit>mitc0185: there we go. run it again as your regular user.
<tadni`>But yeah, okay.
<davexunit>packages are installed per-user.
<mitc0185>davexunit: do I create a user then?
<mitc0185>as a first step?
<tadni`>davexunit: He's running from the distro, not intending do install it.
<mitc0185>I am going to install after I get wifi going
<tadni`>Well maybe he intends to install it, but it is not installed now.
<davexunit>so you're root?
<davexunit>thought you had an unprivileged user.
<mitc0185>no reason to apologize
<davexunit>'guix package -i wpa-supplicant' is the command that will install it for you
<mitc0185>that's what I did
<davexunit>what is the output of that command?
<mitc0185>question is where did it get installed to?
<mitc0185>all kinds of junk
<mitc0185>but it looked like it worked
<davexunit>mitc0185: what is the output of 'guix package --list-installed'?
<davexunit>does wpa-supplicant show up?
<mitc0185>it's the only thing that shows up
<mitc0185>although the install process installed a number of things
<davexunit>what does 'echo $PATH' return?
<davexunit>okay, that looks good.
<mitc0185>should I try to figure out why this isn't working, or just install the system while connected to regular ethernet?
<mitc0185>I had to hijack my brother in-laws network connection to do the wpa-supplicant install
<mitc0185>and was then going to get on wifi to do the rest of it from a more comfortable location
<davexunit>mitc0185: oh I see why! wpa-supplicant binaries are in sbin
<Sleep_Walker>are there some plans for NetworkManager or connman or wicd?
<davexunit>so, '~/.guix-profile/sbin/wpa-supplicant should work'
<tadni`>Didn't wpa_supplicant need libx11 for awhile?
<davexunit>you can add $HOME/.guix-profile/sbin to your path if you want
<tadni`>Sleep_Walker: Wicd is the only one I see being somewhat practical.
<davexunit>Sleep_Walker: networkmanager will take the most work, probably, but I would like it.
<tadni`>NM depends on systemd and I forgot what the issue with conman was.
<davexunit>oh it does?
<tadni`>Pretty sure, let me check again.
<davexunit>god damn, everything depends on systemd now.
<mitc0185>davexunit: ~/.guix-profile is empty
<Sleep_Walker>tadni`: IIRC NM uses systemd for something stupid, like logind, something which could be patched
<mitc0185>according to find it was
<mitc0185>that's weird
<davexunit>mitc0185: symlinks
<mitc0185>got it now
<davexunit>use the -follow flag with find
<davexunit>your profile is a ton of symlinks :)
<tadni`>Ah, it looks as if NM just "strongly reccomends" systemd.
<mitc0185>look at that
<mitc0185>ok, i'm good to go
<tadni`>Not sure if that means, there is some actual level of depend somewhere or...
<Sleep_Walker>if you help me create script for chroot, I'll try to be more helpful
<mitc0185>better take a nap
<mitc0185>thanks all!
<Sleep_Walker>until there is reasonable base, it's hard to use
<tadni`>It appears that both Gentoo and Debian both defaults to Systemd for some reason -- for NetworkManager.
<Sleep_Walker>IIRC systemd is not default on gentoo
<tadni`>Sleep_Walker: Yeah, I think they use OpenRC.
<Sleep_Walker>that was the reason I refreshed my Gentoo after openSUSE migrated to systemd :'(
<Sleep_Walker>Guix is the last hope :b
<tadni`>But, if it's pulling from source of the latest and the latest upstream release suggests systemd ... and compiles as such...
<tadni`>for support as/for such*
<tadni`>The problem appears to be, because udev became part of systemd and NetworkManager wants to compile with udev support.
<tadni`>I think udev got a fork since then, from Gentoo, iirc, so maybe this is now some factor of "solved".
<Sleep_Walker>I haven't checked the situation for some time but udev should be separable from systemd
<davexunit>mitc0185: you're welcome. happy hacking.
<davexunit>Sleep_Walker: someone was talking about implementing use flags for guix. that would be a fun project. :)
<Sleep_Walker>davexunit: I'm not sure what it should mean...
<davexunit>that's the research part :)
<Sleep_Walker>btw. who provides guix ebuilds for gentoo?
<Sleep_Walker>I haven't found any but mine
<davexunit>I don't know.
<davexunit>to me, use flags in guix would just be functions that take a list of use-flags and return a package.
<davexunit>but it would seem that people interested in such things would have to maintain those functions along side the standard, "full-featured" packages.
<davexunit>not sure how that would work...
<tadni`>I mean, don't specific builds kinda take that place anyway. Like if we inhreient emacs and want to change a build option ...? I guess it's not easy to compound config options on top of eachother though...
<davexunit>tadni`: as far as I understand, in gentoo a user can simply say "I don't want KDE things" and the package manager takes care to ensure that, and package maintainers write packages that know what to do with certain use flags.
<tadni`>What does "not wanting KDE things mean"? Refuse to install KDE Software?
<davexunit>tadni`: let's say a package had an optional dependency on a KDE library.
<Sleep_Walker>./configuration --disable-kde-support
<davexunit>the use flag would instruct the package manager to build without it
<Sleep_Walker>./configure --disable-kde-support
<Sleep_Walker>you can specify which optional dependencies will be used
<Sleep_Walker>and package manager will solve the dependencies
<Sleep_Walker>cool stuff
<tadni`>davexunit: I'm not sure how an inherited package could not do this as well. The issue being, that if you want to use more than one flag.
<davexunit>a package maintainer would have to write a function and do the right thing for each supported use flag.
<davexunit>I don't actually know how they do it in gentoo, but I don't see any other way than handling it per package.
<tadni`>davexunit: Ah, okay.
<Sleep_Walker>it is as you say
<Sleep_Walker>how to chroot into guix?
<davexunit>not sure. never done it.
<davexunit>I hope to learn how soon though, so I can containerize guix.
<Sleep_Walker>I need to set PATH
<davexunit>and tell Docker to shove it.
<jxself>...into another Docker container. :)
<jxself>Docker: The home of 1GB binaries.
<davexunit>docker spends a lot of effort doing things that nix/guix have already solved better.
<jxself>Yep, I thought that was funny.
<jxself>Credit to paroneayea -
<davexunit>so once guix can create containers... I don't see any advantage to using silly Docker.
<jxself>Yeah, there isn't one really.
<jxself>Also, it addresses jrobb's complaints:
<davexunit>I have been trying to grok docker for a long time now
<davexunit>and I'm coming to realize that there really isn't much to grok
<Sleep_Walker>symlinks are grouped into /gnu/store/*profile ?
<davexunit>Sleep_Walker: well, the 'derivation' of your profile is in the store
<davexunit>the actual profile is in something like /var/guix/profiles/per-user
<davexunit>and then that's symlinked to your home directory or wherever else.
<davexunit>it's important to note that profiles can exist *anywhere*.
<jxself>Including inside those docker containers that davexunit loves... ;)
<davexunit>you could build a profile specifically for the dependencies for a web application or something
<tadni`>davexunit: Even in my dreams?
<davexunit>it's neat stuff :)
<davexunit>tadni`: especially there.
<tadni`>Dream on!
<tadni`>Okay, stepping out for awhile to grab some food ... and then go to bed. Peace peeps. o/
<Sleep_Walker>davexunit: I'm looking for the one used by daemons, seen by root, etc
<Sleep_Walker>there must be mechanism for pluging it into environment
<davexunit>Sleep_Walker: I think that's the current-system profile, but I'm not sure.
<davexunit>/current-system or something. sorry, I really don't know the specifics of that stuff.
<Sleep_Walker>davexunit: very helpful! thanks!
<Sleep_Walker>and I'm there
<davexunit>what are you doing in the chroot?
<Sleep_Walker>davexunit: for now, installing more apps
<Sleep_Walker>like wpa-supplicant to be able to connect to wifi
<Sleep_Walker>and some default devel environment
<mitc0185>hmm... I'm back. wireless interface not working. Firmware load failed
<mitc0185>is this going to be an issue b/c of binary blobs not being in this kernel?
<Sleep_Walker>what is the requested file name?
<mitc0185>Sleep_Walker: are you asking me?
<Sleep_Walker>yes :)
<mitc0185>"Direct firmware load for /*(DEBLOBBED)*/ failed with error -2
<mitc0185>I'm thinking it's a yes
<Sleep_Walker>mitc0185: indeed :)
<mitc0185>also said "Missing Free Firmware"
<mitc0185>This is a Broadcom BCM5752 chip
<Sleep_Walker>is it tg3 driver?
<mitc0185>Sleep_Walker: I don't know
<mitc0185>it's ok... I'm going to put it down for now
<mitc0185>will come back to it another day
<mitc0185>thanks all
<davexunit>oh.... broadcom
<davexunit>nonfree firmware
<Sleep_Walker>check the header
<davexunit>oh? maybe not...
<mitc0185>#define TG3_PHY_ID_BCM57520x60008100
<Sleep_Walker>well, there can be some other implementation
<Sleep_Walker>but it's not much probable
<mitc0185>so are we looking at a free as in speech driver for this thing?
<Sleep_Walker>and Broadcom is problematic with his specs and firmware
<Sleep_Walker>mitc0185: yup
<mitc0185>but not in this kernel maybe?
<Sleep_Walker>but it doesn't mean necessarily your exact type
<Sleep_Walker>I'm new to this GNU POV - is recommendations of linux against the guix policy?
<Sleep_Walker>(because the limitation in tg3.c driver is artificially made in linux-libre to make it free, mitc0185 wouldn't have problem with linux kernel sources...)
<mitc0185>Sleep_Walker: I think there is another binary firmware file that this tg3.c tries to load
<mitc0185>which isn't present on my GNU System
<davexunit>proprietary firmware strikes again :(
<mitc0185>no biggie
<mitc0185>I'll look into getting a different card
<mitc0185>ok, now I'm going to sign off
<mitc0185>good day/night everyone!
<mitc0185>thanks for the help
<davexunit>good night
<Sleep_Walker>gn and good luck
<davexunit>happy hacking
<Sleep_Walker>wow, no cscope, ctags
<davexunit>just learned that there's a guix subreddit. cool!
<tadni`>Texlive is SOOOOO Massive.
<tadni`>davexunit: Also, VERY cool. Had no idea.
<tadni`>Texlive is still downloadidng, at 1.5GB. I was going to ship it in my config.scm for "emaculate" but it's too big... me thinks, to be a semi-sane default.
<nkar>sneek: later tell civodul how do I apply the grub patch on a standalone system? it needs the /gnu/system/grub.scm file. do I need to use the image and then initialize again?
***tschwing_ is now known as tschwinge
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<sneek>Welcome back civodul, you have 1 message.
<sneek>civodul, nkar says: how do I apply the grub patch on a standalone system? it needs the /gnu/system/grub.scm file. do I need to use the image and then initialize again?
<civodul>nkar: (1) git clone the repo, configure it and run make, etc., (2) run "patch -p1 < the-patch", (3) run "./pre-inst-env guix sytem reconfigure foo"
<civodul>nkar: let me know if you need help or anything
<mongrol>I've just read in the FSF newsletter that Guix is pronounced "Geex"
<mongrol>wtf :)
<civodul>that's right!
<civodul>it's even written on the web page ;-)
<mongrol>but that doesn't make any sense
<Steap_>It's funny
<mongrol>no, no it's not
<Steap_>doesn't anybody get it?
<mongrol>ui != ee
<civodul>yeah, but think of "TeX", "LaTeX", etc.
<civodul>or "GNU", for that matter
<Steap_>Are there rules for prononciation in English now ?
<mongrol>not really a matter of rules or not (and I'm sure there is rules for English), its brand awareness
<mongrol>Like GNOME with the hard G, noone ever in the general userbase calls it that
<Steap_>We should have called Guix "Colonel" just to mess with non-English speakers
<Steap_>mongrol: civodul and I are French, so we definitely use the hard 'G'
<mongrol>fair enough :)
<Steap_>but "Guile" does not make any sense to us
<civodul>but yeah, i understand this is confusing to native speakers
<Steap_>Neither the prononciation nor the language itself, btw
<mongrol>I just think we need to be careful. It's ok having fun acronyms and names when projects are in their infancy, but when they get mindshare or publicity its becomes an important fancy
<civodul>"Guix" comes from "Guile" + "Nix"
<civodul>and "Guile" has a hard 'g'
<mongrol>Well I pronounce Guix as Gooicks
<Steap_>Torvalds once publicly said that he did not give a shit about how people pronounced "Linux", and that he just wanted them to use it
<Steap_>I guess that's the right attitude
<civodul>except for the wording
<mongrol>ok. I'll get back in my cage now :) Don't want to get all ranty over IRC :)
<Steap_>civodul: Linus is not known for his careful wording
<mongrol>changing topic, I've been looking into learning Guile after finding the excellent Sly gamdev framework. Are the best resources on Or is there a "leanr guile in X minutes type thing?
<civodul>i think has the good resources, yes
<mongrol>or can anyone recommend a route for a non-lisper coming from C++/python/lua
<civodul>"X minutes" may not be enough, if you really want to invest in it
<civodul>"Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" is the most recommended reading
<civodul>then there's "How to Design Programs"
<civodul>and "Lisp in Small Pieces"
<mongrol>k, thanks civodul
<civodul>mongrol: thanks for the feedback on the name, anyways
<civodul>it's not the first time it's reported, and it helps have a better understanding of people perception
<civodul>too bad the PDF of the FSF newsletter is not on-line yet
<mongrol>Tis a good article, I wasn't expecting it
<civodul>i think we owe it to davexunit :-)
<taylanub>what article?
<civodul>taylanub: an article about Guix in the FSF News Bulletin
<taylanub>.oO( wow, the FSF started and got the domains,, and :D )
<taylanub>with a neat "modern" style too
<taylanub>civodul: does that mean only subscribed people got it so far?
<civodul>yes, i think so
<civodul>howdy, toothbrush0!
<toothbrush0>toothbrush0: hey, i didn't see you, hi!
<toothbrush0>civodul: is "encliquetage" a real French word?
<civodul>i don't think so!
<civodul>what could it possibly mean?
<toothbrush0>ah, hm. ok. According to Google Translate is should be "snap", as in "to snap a twig"
<civodul>damn i have to lookup the English word to understand what the French phrase means
<toothbrush0>(i'm looking for a "proper" translation of the word snapshot)
<civodul>ah, fun
<phant0mas>hello guix
<civodul>hey, davexunit
<civodul>davexunit: mongrol mentioned the FSF Bulletin article
<davexunit>oh good :)
<davexunit>it seems that a few people learned about Guix because of it.
<civodul>*thanks* to it ;-)
<civodul>"a good article", said mongrol
<civodul>we should collect testimonials, like for movies
<civodul>"This article changed my life." -- L.C.
<zdavis>Awhile ago I mentioned adding a "build iso image" feature. Turns out it is significantly complicated by guix using really long file names in /gnu/store/*. It should still be possible, but will not be as quick and easy as I had hoped.
<taylanub>zdavis: what kind of file/path name limitation does ISO 9660 have?
<zdavis>32 chars it looks like
<zdavis>I managed to make a booting iso by manually copying the kernel image and initrd to /boot/
<zdavis>but it was ugly
<taylanub>32 chars is really low O_o
<davexunit>there's no way it's 32 chars.
<davexunit>that's insane.
<taylanub>looks like ISO 9660 proper has some draconian limitations on filenames: but there are extensions to the spec which allow much more; see below...
<taylanub>zdavis: we probably want to at least assume Rock Ridge support?
<zdavis>I can give the extensions a shot. And I'll check that I'm using iso lvl 2
<jxself>Rock Ridge can safely be assumed I think. It's like 20 years old.
<taylanub>how old is Unicode again? I can't log into Lambda the Ultimate after the database migration because I used Unicode in my name :)
<jxself>Almost 30?
<cmhobbs>well, i just learned about lambda the ultimate
<sneek>Welcome back cmhobbs, you have 1 message.
<sneek>cmhobbs, ArneBab says: I wrote down the basics I learned about Guile when I started. Maybe they can help you, too:
<cmhobbs>thanks for that
<zdavis>I'm starting to think it's isolinux that is having problems with the long file names. If I copy the kernel and initrd to /, I can boot but then get a panic when it tries to run the boot script.
<zdavis>I'm willing to give up pointing the bootloader to the files in /gnu/store, but I don't understand what is going on with the panic when running the giux boot script
<zdavis>never mind, it's dying before the boot script.
<Sleep_Walker>grub version in guix is affected by the
<rgrau>question: does it deserve a 0.8.1 release ?
<rgrau>I'm stuck there also, and having a more friendly starting would enable more ppl to test it and not run away (don't know how much work it is to roll a new distro)
<Sleep_Walker>well, I like that idea of attracting people but I'm afraid there is still lot of work to do
<rekado>are you running Guix (as the GNU system) in "production" or can you recommend a minimal GNU/Linux distribution I could use with Guix (where the distro's package management would be used for all the missing stuff)?
<Sleep_Walker>I made my first boot yesterday
<Sleep_Walker>for now I'm just experimenting
<Sleep_Walker>running Guix on top of Gentoo + having it on separate (and now bootable) partition
<Sleep_Walker>I also experiment with Guix on top of openSUSE
<civodul>rgrau, zdavis: what problem are you having?
<civodul>i missed the beginning of the conversation
<zdavis>Trying to generate a guix iso image.
<zdavis>Either the bootloader, isofs or the kernel doesn't like the long path names in /gnu/store and/or the symlinks
<civodul>ah, ok
<civodul>trying to generate it straight from the USB image?
<civodul>the kernel is fine with those file names (the limit is 4K or something)
<civodul>GRUB is fine as well
<civodul>ISO9660 does have stricter limitations, i'm not sure if this could be a problem hee
<Sleep_Walker>IIRC Joilet defines like 32 characters
<Sleep_Walker>maybe with some rockridge extension...
<Sleep_Walker>and according to wiki even 103 or 110 is used
<civodul>yeah ISTR some extensions would increase the limit
<civodul>i just checked and the NixOS people use "genisoimage -iso-level 4 -r -J"
<zdavis>Ok, I was using the -J, but I'll try including the "-iso-level 4" too
<civodul>alezost: yay for more emacs awesomeness, thanks!
<zdavis>Righ on! The -iso-level 4 makes the long names work, but it's still not crazy about the symlinks
<Sleep_Walker>civodul: is chroot helper script
<Sleep_Walker>civodul: - this is chroot helper script, in case it is correct, it may be useful for others
<civodul>i suspect "guix package --search-paths" produced something similar, did it?
<Sleep_Walker>I haven't tried it when booted
<Sleep_Walker>(I didn't know that)
<Sleep_Walker>in chroot it doesn't seem to produce anything
<jgay>civodul, did RMS contact you by any chance? He emailed me last week he made progress on looking over the site but didn't give me any details
<jgay>*saying he made progress
<civodul>jgay: yes, he contacted me, suggesting that we call the thing "Guix GNU/Linux"
<civodul>followed a discussion on the pros and cons of this name ;-)
<nkar>GNU Guix GNU/GNU Linux-libre
<civodul>so it seems we need a name, but i'm not thrilled by "Guix GNU/Linux", dunno
<civodul>at the same time, i don't care that much
<civodul>nkar: :-)
<nkar>Guix GNU/Linux is awful compared to GNU Guix
<civodul>he even insisted that we not use the "GNU" prefix as is customary
<civodul>yeah, and inappropriate
<jgay>well it is complicated, right? You have two things going on. One is a user installable operating system that consists of a bunch of different programs. And the second is a functional package management toolchain
<civodul>exactly, so that hints at having two different names
<tadni`>Wait, call the actual "Distribution" Guix GNU/Linux?
<civodul>thou shall not feed the troll :-)
<tadni`>If we don't have the okay to use just the name "GNU" for a distro, there are a lot better names we could use for a distro that doesn't complicate what Guix is.
<nkar>the GNU/Linux part is so ridiculous...
<jgay>You might consider doing that. There is no rush to get the project listed
<tadni`>civodul: I mean, the two that comes to my mind -- are along the lines of puns such as gNewSense. Such as GNU Jitsu or GNU Wave.
<davexunit>how about "Whatever"?
<tadni`>davexunit: Yeah, "XYZ".
<civodul>davexunit: sounds good!
<civodul>anyway, if someone wants to collect a list of ideas and post it in a few days, that'd be great
<tadni`>civodul: Like what, a wikipage on libreplanet or something?
<civodul>yes, or a text file
<taylanub>I always thought Nix -> NixOS / Guix -> GuixOS was the obvious thing, barring for the desire to just call it GNU.
<civodul>tadni`: would you like to collect ideas?
<tadni`>civodul: Yeah, I could. I'm only going to be more-or-less free until the weekend though, then I'll be afk till the 12th or-so.
<civodul>ok, sounds cool
<civodul>perhaps you could first poll on IRC, and only then poll on the list, to avoid a flame war
<civodul>if you can create a wiki page on libreplanet, that's even better
<civodul>actually there were already proposals in the past:
<tadni`>taylanub: The problem there is, that they (Nix/NixOS) are a one off -- they are not a part of any Grand project and really the only big thing they are doing is Nix. The don't have their own init-system and too, they aren't trying to act as somewhat of an organinzing body for a bigger project in any way.
<tadni`>RMS seems to (or at least was reffered to) suggest "Guixotic". Does this even work in the way geek is supposed to be pronnounced?
<taylanub>sounds like toxic :P
<tadni`>The other one is jinn.
<tadni`>That I've seen thusfar on this mailing list post, civodul posted.
<tadni`>Guix is Guix.
<bavier`>tadni`: I like that
<tadni`>That was on the ML.
<tadni`>Trying to scrap on these from there onto the wiki, just posing what I happen to see.
<davexunit>I don't really like any of the suggested names, personally.
<bavier`>"jinn" could work, but I'd like it better as "ginn"
<davexunit>not metal enough \\m/
<tadni`>davexunit: I plan to have a "advant/disadvant" section on the wiki, people can comment on.
<phant0mas>and what will be the name when we support hurd as well?
<tadni`>"One more choice is "gemmate" or "germ". Seems to be appropriate for
<tadni`>collection of packages."
<taylanub>I'll vote for GNU if it's still an option and otherwise have no strong opinion, but we might want to avoid something "lame" for a change :P
<davexunit>phant0mas: HURUIX
<davexunit>keeping with the theme of bad names
<davexunit>taylanub: +1
<tadni`>phant0mas: That's my issue. The type of OS should not be in distro name. It should just be "GNU Title" to designate it is a GNU project.
<davexunit>that's why I propose "Better Than Your Other OS"
<taylanub>tadni`: yeah .. GNU something ... ah, I know: GNU Distro
<davexunit>GNU Who Cares At This Point We Should Be Hacking
<tadni`>taylanub: Well, if RMS isn't up for it... but you know, we could just have it offically called "Distro".
<nkar>I don't understand how the above proposals solve the GNU/Linux issue. if you assume that gig, ginn, or whatever can be used without the GNU/Linux part, so why can't guix be used?
<tadni`>I think RMS's problem is that we call it GNU. As in the official GNU OS.
<nkar>isn't it a gnu package?
<davexunit>nkar: maybe they can't be used, I dunno. this is all getting a bit ridiculous, IMO.
<nkar>maybe it shouldn't be a gnu package, I dunno.
<davexunit>I'll be busy writing code, wake me when it's over with.
<tadni`>What if we just call it "GNU Distro". But not in the context that we are the GNU Operating system, /just/ an official effort to configure it in this certain way, we just call "distro".
<Sleep_Walker>"The OS"
<jxself>I hope RMS finally signs off on calling it the GNU Operating System.
<taylanub>leaving jokes aside, I don't think RMS would be particularly happy if we just sidestepped his disapproval of calling it GNU.
<jxself>I mean, what else are the GNU Hackers working on if not that?
<Sleep_Walker>Ludovix! :D
<taylanub>that actually sounds better than most of the recommendations so far :D
<davexunit>Sleep_Walker: I honestly think that one isn't bad.
<tadni`>Sleep_Walker: That is a bit cute, but I don't think civodul would be for that -- knowing him a bit.
<phant0mas>"The pure unadulterated OS"
<tadni`>jxself: Why the v?
<davexunit>I talked privately with civodul about it once. he said "I really just want to name it after myself because I'm awesome, but I don't to seem self-centered"
<jxself>I used the vix part from sleep_walker's name.
<davexunit>don't want*
<tadni`>jxself: Ah.
<civodul>davexunit: exactly, so thank you and Sleep_Walker for suggesting the only name that makes sense
<jxself>So there are GNU Hackers, using the GNU Project infastructure, and working on a GNU packge (Guix) but they're not working to make the GNU Operating System.
<davexunit>civodul: hehehe
<Sleep_Walker>Almost GNU!
<davexunit>"I Can't Believe it's not GNU"
<jxself>We should all move over to the domain name too.
<davexunit>it tastes just like it!
<phant0mas>why we just don't use guix and guix distro without GNU?
<jxself>Since this isn't the GNU system, according to RMS.
<nkar>phant0mas: thank you!
<phant0mas>can't believe a name can create such an issue...
<tadni`>So, we have "GuixOS, GNU Jitsu, GNU Wave, Guixtoxic, jinn or ginn, gig, ludovix". Am I missing any?
<davexunit>I once overhead a woman say that "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"
<civodul>tadni`: "I Can't Believe it's Not GNU", "The OS", "The System"
<Sleep_Walker>Almost but not entirely completely GNU
<jxself>What about the letter G?
<civodul>how would people find it? :-)
<tadni`>What about, GNUD, so we could be GNUists?
<davexunit>Gahnoo Slash Leenux
<tadni`>I mean, I don't see the problem of GNU "Distro" really as long as we don't claim to be official GNU Operating System. Just a distribution distributed by GNU.
<tadni`>Has this been explained to RMS?
<jxself>But why can't there be one? What have the GNU Hackers been working on for all of these years?
<bavier`>"GNU Dist"
<civodul>"make dist"
<tadni`>Is this convo with RMS on a ML anywhere?
<jxself>gnu-system-discuss has parts of it.
*tadni` looks.
<jxself>Not the off-list conversation of course.
<tadni`>Democratic Leadership thread?
<jxself>Before that.
<alezost>was "gnux" already mentioned?
<jxself>That was a split where someone had the idea that RMS shouldn't be ousted.
<jxself>er should be
<taylanub>hm, I like GNU Dist / Gnudist :P
<jxself>The logo could be a nude gnu?
<tadni`>jxself: So, just a GNU? :^)
<taylanub>The Naked GNU
<Sleep_Walker>civodul: even after boot `guix package --search-paths' returns nothing
<Sleep_Walker>but at least now I know that there is such command
<civodul>Sleep_Walker: as root?
<Sleep_Walker>as root
<civodul>it works on the current user's profile
<tadni`>I mean, from what I can understand of RMS on this current thread -- it seems more-so he fears that an "official distro" may be confused with the "GNU Operating System" to start, as is. And more-or-less deeming it the official GNU OS is realyl problematic to him./
<tadni`>Maybe we shouldn't even call it a distro then? Maybe a Distribution Platform, that offers default images?
<Sleep_Walker>as user neither
<jxself>But it shouldn't be bothersome to him because he started the GNU Project to make a GNU OS.
<jxself>It finally shows up and he's like "Meh, maybe not."
<tadni`>jxself: I think he fears that decisions may pop up, that he doesn't back -- and might cause tension and people expect him to be dictator for life, because he's RMS and they call themselves "The GNU Operating System".
<Sleep_Walker>GNU Guix sounds right, it doesn't feel like implying - that's the GNU OS RMS was talking about
<jxself>GNU Guix sounds right for the name of the package manager. :)
<jxself>But we don't get Debian APT for example.
<tadni`>GNU Guix+Dmd+Linux-Libre+Core-utils+bash+guile+etc+etc+etc Distro.
<Sleep_Walker>any way to emphasize scheme?
<tadni`>Sleep_Walker: FauxLispM OS.
<tadni`>Schemata? But that would imply a lot more Scheme, me thinks.
<taylanub>jxself: I think the thing is, there's this argument (or fact) that many/most distros out there are in fact GNU/Linux distros, and even outside those GNU is everywhere (including Apple OS X O_o), so "GNU" is really ubiquitous, and calling any single entity "GNU" would imply that GNU is not in fact ubiquitous.
<tadni`>taylanub: Yeah.
<jxself>I don't see how. GNU is still used everywhere. They've been variants of the GNU systems for 30 years.
<jxself>er system
<tadni`>You could argue that this "GNU" is the canonical implementation of GNU, but I doubt RMS is for that.
<tadni`>Again, you can reason out of it and just call it "GNU Distro" but not "The GNU Distro". The first example being it is just a GNU project, called distro, that implemnts a version of the GNU system. Not /the/ GNU System.
<taylanub>tadni`: I doubt RMS would be happy...
<jxself>If this isn't the GNU Operating System we're working on then it shouldn't be on Maybe moved to nongnu or something.
<tadni`>taylanub: I mean, has anyone explained this line of logic to him? RMS is mostly reasonable, I don't think he'd be upset if we were clear in not claiming to be /the/ GNU system, just a distribution maintained officially by some GNU hackers.
*civodul goes to bed, thinking about the Distro Without a Name
<tadni`>jxself: It's still a GNU project, is it not?
<tadni`>civodul: Peace. o/
<jxself>The package manager itself is.
<taylanub>GNU DWAN?
<jxself>But that seems to be as far as RMS is willing to do.
<tadni`>taylanub: AHAHAHA.
<tadni`>Rework it so it fits Dawn.
<tadni`>"GNU DAWN".
<jxself>er to go
<bavier`>"GNU Distro AWaiting a Name"
<tadni`>bavier`: I actually really like that.
<taylanub>tadni`: it seems rather sarcastic to say "the project is just called Distro, and since it's a GNU package, it's called GNU Distro."
<tadni`>The name itself overly sappy, but the actual meaning of the name shows how we can't fully get our shit together. :^)
<taylanub>when RMS explicitly tries to avoid having it sanctioned as *the* GNU OS.
<jxself>And so we must conclude that there will never be a GNU Operating System?
<jxself>And so what, then, is the GNU Project working on?
<tadni`>taylanub: I mean, my general solution there woulld be call it a distribution platform then. But I don't see either being bad ... really, as long as we explicitly specify we are not the official GNU system.
<taylanub>jxself: you see, other distributions call themselves Foobar GNU/Linux, and we *could* drop the Linux because Linux-libre is a GNU package, but we'd still be left with Foobar GNU, because we're "just" a distribution of GNU. in other terms, GNU has become so spread-out and ubiquitous, that there cannot be any "GNU" OS anymore. I think that might be RMS's logic...
<tadni`>jxself: Unless RMS has a major change of heart, or who ever defaults to/if anyone defaults to such a position, until after RMS drops. :^P
<Sleep_Walker>ugh, does name really have to follow some not followed taxonomy?
<tadni`>I mean, if it's a GNU project ... it's implied that all the base packages are probably going to be owned by GNU.
<taylanub>tadni`: we *might* be able to get off by "not giving it a name" and using the abbreviation "distro" or the word "distribution" for downloadable files and stuff...
<tadni`>Sleep_Walker: So Linux-Libre and Hurd are both part of GNU, GNU would be the only tax'd name. That being said, again, if it is a GNU project. GNU XYZ would be assumed already to be all GNU at that level.
<taylanub> would have a button "click here to get a distribution of the GNU system" and it would download a file called gnu-distribution-2014-12.iso or some such :P
<tadni`>That makes it seem like an official OS to me.
<taylanub>but I guess that's also just implicitly sitting on the pure "GNU" name.
<jxself>Other distros are not hosted on so if we're not to be the GNU Operating System but "some unofficial random thing put together by random people" then we should be kicked off
<jxself>We cannot both exist on Project infrastructure and not be a part of it at the same time.
<jxself>Leads to strange double talk.
<tadni`>jxself: Other distros aren't using officical GNU projects for init-system and packagem amangment.
<taylanub>jxself: hosts GNU projects. Guix/GuixDistro is one. there could theoretically be others too...
<tadni`>Which are the biggest differences between most distros.
<jxself>Like the Debian Project and their non-free thing.
<taylanub>I mean, other GNU projects which bundle a whole OS
<jxself>taylanub: So if Debian switched init systems and package managers they can be added to
<taylanub>jxself: if they become an official GNU project, they could probably do it without switching init systems and package managers...
<jxself>taylanub: Seems only the package manager is an GNU thing, not the distro it makes.
<tadni`>taylanub: If they were being developed, in mass, by GNU devs, probably.
<taylanub>tadni`: do GNU devs have any official status, like FSF membership?
<tadni`>jxself: The init-system is a GNU thing.
<tadni`>taylanub: It depends.
<jxself>That sounds a lot like GUix. Developed by GNU devs, on gnu infrastructure, but not gnu...
<taylanub>from what I can tell, becoming a GNU project is a matter of asking and having the status granted, without even necessarily copyright transfer as I learned recently
<tadni`>It's GNU, but not the "GNU System".
<jxself>Seems like the only GNU thing is the package manager.
<jxself>The system made from that package manager with system init is not the GNU system.
<jxself>It would seem, from RMS>
<tadni`>jxself: It's because GNU is now an ubiquitos/nebulous thing and I don't think RMS want to have a distribution that people can think is the canonical implemntation of GNU.
<jxself>I meant when you run guix system init my-os-config.scm
<jxself>But what was he planning to make 30 years ago?
<Sleep_Walker>and will there be some? will that be HURD based?
<jxself>I guess plans change and nowadays GNU will just be left on hold to idle and never finish.
<taylanub>jxself: rather, it's been finished since systems like gNewSense and Trisquel started to exist
<jxself>No it hasn't.
<taylanub>there are several GNU OS distributions already. what sets Guix apart *could* be said to be a technicality...
<jxself>Third parties taking stuff and making their own version doesn't the GNU system make.
<taylanub>it'd be a rather significant/big "technicality" in that case but just explaining the point of view
<tadni`>jxself: That is a decent point, but again, a fear that taylanub stated earlier -- is that it might in part, seem to invalidate this GNU/Linux naming scheme. If we declare an official operating system implementation.
<taylanub>jxself: I think the view is exactly that it does. gNewSense and Trisquel are both distributions of the GNU OS, and Guix will be another. Guix is ""merely"" less dependent of a non-GNU GNU/Linux distro like Debian or Ubuntu...
<jxself>In those cases should be updated so that they're not called variants of the gnu system.
<jxself>But that they are *the* GNU system.
<taylanub>hm, not sure about the difference between "variant" and "distribution"...
<taylanub>variant/distribution/version, all seem thin lines
<jxself>Imagine the Debian Project. They exist to work on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution. Someone can fork it, and make their own variant of the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, but that variant is not itself Debian.
<jxself>If that makes sense.
<taylanub>if those "variants" are actually projects under the Debian umbrella, they would be Debian
<jxself>If. But they're not. I'm sure that the Debian Project would object if someone tried to claim that they were in fact the Debian GNU/Linux distro.
<taylanub>gNewSense and Trisquel are not "forks" of a GNU OS by "someone" .. they're official GNU projects
<DusXMT>taylanub: But there is a fork in works, so what's being said is somewhat relevant
<jxself>They are? How so?
<taylanub>uh, I might actually be mistaken; I don't know if gNewSense and Trisquel are "official GNU projects"
<taylanub>DusXMT: to be blunt I don't even want to know the existence of this :P
<tadni`>taylanub: They aren't. gNewSense was officially sponsored/suggest for awhile though iirc.
<jxself>dusxmt: Yes?
<tadni`>Okay, I've got short explinations for GNU Jitsu, Wave, DAWN, and Ludovix, so far.
<taylanub>I think one might have a go at suggesting RMS to use a wording on the download page such as: "a complete distribution of the GNU system as managed by the GNU project can be downloaded _here_(link). for some other variants of the GNU system, see below..."
<jxself>But that raises the issue that some variant is given preference over another.
<jxself>Which is something RMS has wanted to avoid ever since the free distro list started.
<jxself>Listed in alphabetical order, none are shown any special preference over any other...
<taylanub>now I'm starting to see your position :P given those "variants" aren't GNU projects, not hosted on, but we are, that's one concrete thing to justify granting us that status
<jxself>ANd if we're not, why are we on
<taylanub>not the status of "being *the* GNU OS" mind you, just the status of being the primarily linked distribution
<jxself>I'm glad someone's starting to see it :)
<taylanub>we might ask civodul tomorrow if it has been made sure whether RMS understood this point of view and still rejected it, or didn't consider this point of view yet...
<tadni`>Okay, so far, I have GNU Jitsu, GNU Wave, GNU DAWN, Ludovix, GNU Dist, GuixOS, Guixotic, Jinn, Germ/Gemmate. Any others?
<taylanub>tadni`: Gnudist as a close variant of GNU Dist. and maybe The Naked GNU :P
<tadni`>taylanub: I'll just slash append it. GNU Dist/Gnudist.
<taylanub>well we would need to choose one of the two
<taylanub>though I kind of doubt they'd get many votes :P
<Sleep_Walker>GNU Dist FOSDEM meeting in reserved sauna
<tadni`>Jitsu and Wave, I obviously like -- because I came up with them, but I do really like DAWN (Distro AWaiting A Name), Gnudist, and Ludovix has some charm.
<tadni`>Brbm need to get some auto-gas.