IRC channel logs

<taylanub>I'm confused; do we have *any* build-time-dependency v. run-time-dependency separation so far? if a package uses scons to build, that surely shouldn't install scons for someone installing that package via a binary substitute?

<nkar>sneek: later tell civodul indeed, building with substitutes solves the problem

<sneek>Got it.

<nkar>it seems there's no 'shutdown' on the usb image, right?

<jmd>git checkout wip-libreoffice ; ./pre-inst-env guix package -i libreoffice ; soffice

<jmd>Anyone tried installing libreoffice ?

<iyzsong>none :x

<civodul>Hello Guix!

<sneek>civodul, you have 1 message.

<sneek>civodul, nkar says: indeed, building with substitutes solves the problem

<civodul>nkar: so how far did you get?

<nkar>civodul: built the package and wrote filled the with random data. I'll continue tonight

<nkar>s/wrote//

<nkar>the disk*

<nkar>damn, I can't type

<civodul>"the package"?

<nkar>cryptsetup

<nkar>in other words, I haven't made much progress.

<nkar>but it's only due to the lack of time

<civodul>ok

<civodul>what's in a name...

<civodul>that gnu-system-discuss thread is depressing

<civodul>you're invited to start looking for a name...

<nkar>civodul: are you referring to the "What can we expect ..." thread?

<civodul>yes

<davexunit>is this a new thread?

<alezost>davexunit: it's in gnu-system list: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-system-discuss/2014-11/msg00002.html

<davexunit>ohhh

<nkar>civodul: the naming issue is just a tip of the iceberg. there's no dedicated effort. people just work on their own projects (sometimes in groups) that only share the same prefix.

<civodul>yes, i know :-/

<civodul>davexunit: in which the same protagonists defend the same ideas :-)

<civodul>at least rms has clarified his thoughts, which is good

<nkar>civodul: let me give an example: you asked the "gnu maintainers" several times to start maintaining their packages in guix. how many were interested?

<civodul>nkar: you want me more depressed or what? ;-)

<nkar>civodul: not at all

<civodul>i'm really surprised there's resistance

<davexunit>me too

<civodul>i would expect people to just not care

<civodul>but here, it's like, "please, let the project die peacefully"

<civodul>"it's too late", ec.

<civodul>*etc.

<nkar>civodul: you almost never can convince people if they don't want to be convinced. just keep working. I understand that you care about naming because you want to consolidate the projects, but I don' think it'll happen. but the work you (and other developers) do is still important.

<civodul>yes, agreed

<civodul>i can live with a different name

<civodul>it just feels so weird

<nkar>one of the goals of the project (as I understand it) is to have a free nixos with scheme, which is a good goal, too.

<civodul>yes, definitely

<davexunit>I dunno, I think RMS might eventually agree to have it GNU.

<davexunit>s/have/name/

<davexunit>it will certainly take awhile.

*davexunit is having major opengl and sound issues on his guix machine

<civodul>oh, no sound?

<davexunit>I have sound

<davexunit>on some things

<davexunit>for instance, icecat has sound

<davexunit>(though I don't think it was using pulseaudio)

<civodul>the problem is when there are process that use ALSA, and others that try to use PA

<civodul>ALSA grants exclusive access to the process

<davexunit>yeah, maybe that's part of the issue

<civodul>for instance, MPlayer uses ALSA by default, which is annyoing

<davexunit>I'm not good at debugging sound issues

<davexunit>the opengl issue is more concerning...

<civodul>what is it like?

<civodul>i don't think i really use OpenGL, but who knows ;-)

<davexunit>I tried to run minetest, and it was extremely slow.

<davexunit>like it wasn't using my GPU at all

<civodul>oh

<civodul>ISTR that MESA is normally dlopened, or something

<davexunit>I have an nvidia GPU, and I can see that the nouveau module had been loaded via lsmod | grep nouveau

<civodul>could you check if that is the case?

<civodul>ok

<davexunit>yeah, I can check later tonight.

<davexunit>I installed mesa

<davexunit>to my profile, to no avail

<davexunit>other sound issues involved SDL_mixer not working, I think you noticed that, too.

<davexunit>I ended up tweaking LD_LIBRARY_PATH to include my profile's lib dir and then SDL_mixer was able to use libpulse

<davexunit>I don't know what the real solution is...

<davexunit>it was at this point that I got too tired to struggle with it anymore

<civodul>heh

<civodul>we'll address that

<davexunit>do you what the fix should be?

<davexunit>s/do you/do you know/

<civodul>i remember that NixOS has this /run/opengl-driver directory to allow apps to dlopen MESA or something

<davexunit>ah, okay.

<iyzsong``>davexunit: you may want to pass "--disable-sdl-dlopen" to SDL

<davexunit>iyzsong``: you sure know a lot of things! :)

<davexunit>what would be expected result of that be?

<iyzsong``>I just look at it's configure's output :)

<davexunit>that will solve the SDL issue, but it won't solve other software issues

<davexunit>for instance, icecat: try to view any page that requires webgl, it will fail.

<iyzsong``>well, I just got `This browser does not appear to support WebGL', maybe our mesa is too old?

<davexunit>no, I don't think so.

<davexunit>I think it's because it can't load libgl and co.

<iyzsong``>yes, you are right! I load icecat with LD_LIBRARY_PATH, it works..

<davexunit>bam!

<davexunit>so, we need to fix this situation

<iyzsong``>we can hardcode the mesa or using LD_LIBRARY_PATH to support 3rd opengl drivers?

<davexunit>I don't think we want to mess with LD_LIBRARY_PATH

<davexunit>I don't really know why, though. civodul would know, I think.

*davexunit notices that guix has reached the point of having to deal with asshats on the mailing lists.

<CrLF0710>Hi, i'm interested in giving Guix a try, though i'm a newbie and don't know where to start. I'm got a VirtualBox machine ready and downloaded the usb image of guix. Now what should i do? I don't have a usb device at hand(weird, but true), can i convert this usb image to iso or something like that so i can bootstrap the guix distro?

<bavier`>CrLF0710: see https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2014-10/msg00024.html

<bavier`>which is for qemu I guess

<bavier`>CrLF0710: there's also https://gitorious.org/ecelis-guix/hackathon

<bavier`>see INSTALL.VirtualBox

<CrLF0710>thx, i'll try that.

<jxself>Please don't. VirtualBox is non-free nowadays.

<_`_>Isn't the base GPLv2?

<CrLF0710>It's still GPLed, i suppose?

<_`_>The extension pack isn't entirely necessary

<jxself>Not the extension stuff. It needs a non-free compiler nowadays.

<jxself>This is why Debian has moved it into non-free.

<_`_>But it's not as if the extension pack is necessary for this use case

<jxself>Why are you talking of the extenions? I'm not.

<jxself> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=691148

<civodul>oh, i didn't know that

<jxself> https://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/12011

<jxself>Oracle offers compiler output for people to use as a source and don't seem to understand (or don't want to understand) the issue.

<jxself>And the license of open watcom - http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#Watcom

<civodul>blech

<davexunit>>closed enhancement: invalid

<_`_>oh

<jxself>Being GPLed doesn't matter if you can't compile it with free software. :)

<jxself>Which is why looking only at licenses isn't enough, _`_ :)

<_`_>“It needs a non-free compiler nowadays.” It wasn't clear to me that “it” referred to the base there. But yeah a shame.

<DusXMT>_`_: From what I heared, a part of the code is "real-mode C", and the free software world apparently doesn't have a real-mode compiler

<DusXMT>*real-mode C compiler

<DusXMT>But there is bcc, isn't there?

<_`_>which is apparently “too buggy” according to whoracle.

<_`_>hrm

<_`_>It should be possible to build the BIOS from the 4.1 series with bcc then use it on 4.2

<_`_>More work than anyone might want to care for though.

<DusXMT>I wonder how hard it would be to rewrite the real-mode part into assembly... but it probably wouldn't bee too beneficial, as we already have qemu/KVM with SeaBios

<_`_>apparently there are assembly sources somewhere, haven't looked.

<_`_>Main reason people might prefer virtualbox over qemu/kvm is a lack of intel vt-x/amd-v on their system, which shouldn't be that common, but might be.

<DusXMT>Usually, on those kinds of computers (I had one), VirtualBox also isn't accelerated

<DusXMT>*two

<_`_>But the software based virtualization it does, probably results in better performance in guests over purely emulating with qemu.

<DusXMT>possible

<guixnoob>hi guys. How to change keyboard layout in guix?

<davexunit>guixnoob: from an x session? I use xmodmap to map caps lock to ctrl, for example.

<jmd>How to know why gramatical subject omitted in IRC?

<guixnoob>davexunit, thanks. Can you tell mi which window manager you're using?

<davexunit>guixnoob: I just started using ratpoison. I was using window maker at first.

<davexunit>window maker is the default WM that the slim-service starts upon login.

<jmd>guixnoob: You can use setxkbmap if you want a "standard layout"

<jmd>Obviously that only affects the X server's idea of the keymap.

<guixnoob>aha, thanks... right now i'm just preparing to install guix, so i'm just exploring my options. BTW, i'm from croatia and woud like to have croatian layout if possible

<davexunit>I need to figure out how to remap caps lock to ctrl outside of x, too.

<guixnoob>i like the idea of "functional package manager"

<davexunit>guixnoob: that should be possible, but I'm not very familiar with keyboard configuration tools.

<davexunit>guixnoob: us too. :)

<guixnoob>and i like the fact that it all is configurable from scheme - scheme is my most favorable language. Can't wait guix v1.0! :)))

<davexunit>unbalanced parentheses!

<guixnoob>:)

<davexunit>guixnoob: I think you will really like guix.

<guixnoob>i hope so... i just saw guix web page yesterday first time

<davexunit>guixnoob: here's the configuration for my guix machine: https://gitorious.org/davexunit/guix-config/source/6c37693fa461261846deaabf8a8861fa2c084ba8:desktop.scm

<guixnoob>so, if i understand correctly, i just need to use something like that and execute this: guix system init /mnt/etc/config.scm /mnt

<civodul>guixnoob: yes, that should work

<civodul>we should really add a knob to easily configure the keyboard layout

<guixnoob>thank you guys!

<paroneayea>davexunit: are you dual booting, or is that your booot-to-VM?

<paroneayea>I'm thinking of setting up a new backup machine

<paroneayea>maybe I should run guix on it

<davexunit>paroneayea: I have a desktop computer that I'm using.

<davexunit>replaced debian with guix

<paroneayea>maybe I should get a beaglebone black for my backup server, that'd be cheap...

<jmd>There's a flag or something to say that a package cannot be cross compiled. Can anyone remember what it is?

<davexunit>I asked this person to email bug-guix about this, but for the record:

<davexunit><[TheFlash]> davexunit: hi, in guix 0.8, DMD doesn't seem to unmount the

<davexunit> filesystems during shutdown, just letting you know

<civodul>i think this was fixed by 1c27641

<civodul>i meant to email the list, but i didn't

<davexunit>and that's after the 0.8 release, I take it?

<civodul>yes

<paroneayea>oh, guix doesn't support ARM yet, does it?

<davexunit>nope.

<davexunit>that will change soon enough.

<paroneayea>guess I'm not running it on a beaglebone black for my backup server then, yet :)

<paroneayea>assuming beaglebone black also boots with linux-libre anyway

<paroneayea>jxself: do you know about that one?

<davexunit>I believe it does

<davexunit>(it's on the FSF's RYF table)

<paroneayea>oh, great :)

<paroneayea>davexunit: wait, is it?

<paroneayea> https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/respects-your-freedom don't see it there

<davexunit>paroneayea: might be one of the in-progress items

<davexunit>you just got some insider info

<paroneayea>woo ;)

<civodul>oh that'd be the first ARM machine to get the RYF stamp, no?

<davexunit>hmm, not sure.

<davexunit>I think the librecmc router runs on ARM.

<davexunit>could be wrong though

<paroneayea>relatedly

<paroneayea>my librecmc router came in

<civodul>oh right

<paroneayea>haven't installed it yet tho

<jxself>paroneayea: I suspect it does. I've not looked into it though.

<paroneayea>well I think I'll order one and find out :)

<jxself>On a related note, the .rocks idea jpope suggested is available. Just FYI... ;)

<jxself>er un-related note I mean.

<paroneayea>he also just said "done"

<paroneayea>did he just register it?

<jxself>The "done" is probably in response to my suggestion that people send you email so that your inbox has things in it.

<paroneayea>oh, ha

*paroneayea fetches mail

IRC channel logs

2014-11-24.log