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<davexunit>damn, the 0.8 install image doesn't load the necessary module for my ethernet device
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<civodul>Guix 0.8 is (informally) out!
***civodul changes topic to 'GNU Guix | | channel log: | things to package: | GNU Guix 0.8 is out!'
<civodul> <- spread the news! :-)
<Steap_>yeah \\o/
<nkar>civodul: you're using standalone guix, right? what will you do when you need to install a package which is not a part of the distribution and which is tricky to package?
<nkar>congrats on the release, btw
<civodul>nkar: as a last resort, i still have an old /nix/store with other apps
<civodul>i don't think i have needed it since i've switched
<civodul>then again, i don't need much ;-)
<civodul>but really, there's already a few big things like Inkscape, GIMP, AbiWord, etc.
<nkar>so you can install nix on top of standalone guix if necessary, correct?
<Steap_>and you don't use Gnome, so nothing is tricky to patch
<nkar>civodul: there's still no scala, coq, and haskell, iirc.
<Steap_>"scala, coq, haskell"
<Steap_>doing research, maybe ? :p
<taylanub>scala isn't for research AFAIK
<Steap_>that does feel like a language that would be used by someone interested in type theory, isn't it ?
<nkar>civodul: I'm asking because I got a new machine yesterday, and I'm considering using a standalone system, too. hopefully, this'll force me to contribute again.
<nkar>Steap_: heard of scalaz?
<Steap_>nkar: nope, what is it ?
<nkar>briefly, scala done the right way
<nkar>Steap_: I don't know how it deals with null strings, etc. since I'm still learning, but at least there's a shift in the right direction.
<Steap_>nkar: I think there is a wiki page "somewhere" with a list of stuff to package
<Steap_>maybe you could add scala/coq/haskell there
<Steap_>not sure whether anyone reads it though
<nkar>Steap_: it's on libreplanet
<taylanub>I've heard someone say that they heard a GHC developer say that Scala's type system is too much for em to handle. that aside, Scala *tries* to be a "practical" language AFAIK.
<civodul>nkar: yes (in my case it was pre-installed)
<nkar>civodul: okay, than I'll definitely try a standalone system.
<civodul>packaging Coq shouldn't be too difficult
<nkar>I'm guessing the major issue will be the IDE.
<civodul>Scala needs OpenJDK, which is definitely going to be difficult
<civodul>(and not worth it, if you ask me ;-))
<civodul>GHC is difficult, but someone has to work on it
<Steap_>how far were we with GHC ?
<nkar>civodul: we've already talked about GHC, remember? I still want to try to use the bootstrap binaries method that you suggested
<civodul>nkar: of course i remember, but one has to continue the work :-)
<nkar>(been busy)
<civodul>sure, np
<civodul>i mean, GHC is in Nixpkgs, so it's definitely not impossible
<civodul>and we can even steal ideas from there or elsewhere
<civodul>it's party-time on master :-)
<civodul>however, cURL had test failures, leading to breakage:
<grumlee>hi people
<grumlee>Just saw taylanub post on reddit, but the ftp server is quite slow. Anyone made a torrent oh the 0.8 release ?
<grumlee>I'll try too when my actual dl finishes but until then I'm asking
<taylanub>don't think Guix had enough testers so far to make that worthwile
<grumlee>how many do you think are testing it ?
<taylanub>wild guess would be a dozen or two
<grumlee>I'll try to build a torrent for the sake of it then
<taylanub>thanks :)
<Sleep_Walker>congratulations on 0.8 release
<grumlee>seems like binary substitutes are default now
<grumlee>making guix far more useful out of the box
<civodul>it's the default in the installation image, but still not in the installed system
<civodul>i wonder if we should change that
<nkar>civodul: will the servers handle it?
<civodul> has been quite stable since it got some more RAM
<grumlee>ok, i'm seeding 0.8 .. here's a magnet url magnet:?xt=urn:btih:GLEWHEADZEOPDSPHKVCXRWYH3S7ZWX5M&dn=gnu-usb-install-0.8.x86_64-linux.xz&
<davexunit>happy 0.8 release, everyone!
<davexunit>811 commits!
<Sleep_Walker>...and packaged for openSUSE again :)
<gp5st>hello. I'm not 100% sure what I'm asking, but does guix have namespacing built in. e.g. in apt, all the php modules are prefixed php5-; I was curious if this was a concept built into guix or if it uses a flat namespace for packages
<davexunit>gp5st: we typically use the upstream name of the software as the package name. though you'll see what we use prefixes for python libs, for instance.
<davexunit>guix package -A python
<gp5st>davexunit: cool :)
<davexunit>posted the release notes to HN, upvotes welcome.
<iyzsong>so next year, we'll make the 1.0 release!
<grumlee>can someone try this magnet url magnet:?xt=urn:btih:GLEWHEADZEOPDSPHKVCXRWYH3S7ZWX5M&dn=gnu-usb-install-0.8.x86_64-linux.xz&
<grumlee>trying to seed guix 0.8 through bittorrent
<davexunit>the release notes appear to be #1 on the HN front page right now
<davexunit>probably won't last very long, but I hope it creates some discussion
<grumlee>just saw this
<grumlee>my submission about mechanical harmonic fourrier analyzer never got that lucky *ssad*
<grumlee>dmd and deco UI are pretty obscure, not very discoverable
<davexunit>grumlee: would you like to help us improve that sometime?
<davexunit>I have yet to hack on dmd
<davexunit>I should try it soon
<jmd>Why hasn't /topic been updated to announce 0.8 ?
<davexunit>probably because civodul isn't here right now
<jmd>It's so difficult to get reliable maintainers .... :/
<davexunit>I can't tell if you're joking
<jmd>davexunit: Why not? Are you filtering emoticons?
<grumlee>davexunit: yeah, I'm not freely complaining ;)
<grumlee>And I'm tolerant when it comes to user interfaces but I found it too crude even then
<jmd>grumlee: Me neither. Every complaint I make comes at a cost.
<davexunit>grumlee: dmd needs more love, for sure. guix has a lot of hackers, but dmd only a couple.
<jmd>Nobody knows much about dmd.
<Steap_>guix has a lot of hackers ? :p
<Steap_>for some value of "a lot" ? :p
<davexunit>Steap_: relatively speaking!
<davexunit>we're certainly picking up steam
<davexunit>more and more people contributing patches for each release
<davexunit>more activity on irc and the mailing list
<jmd>I think it has about the same number of hackers as (say) debian. Just less users.
<Steap_>You think Guix has as many hackers as Debian ?
<davexunit>debian certainly has a lot more. there's a ton of package maintainers.
<jmd>Well it does, of course depend on your definition of "hacker".
<Steap_>there are more DDs than there are Guix hackers
<jmd>But most DDs are not hackers.
<grumlee>we all know guix is the chosen one, and thus emerged itself from the binary tarpit
<gp5st>are there any distros using dmd and guix by default?
<davexunit>just the guix distro, whatever it's name ends up being :)
<jmd>gp5st: yes. GNU
<grumlee>guix needs a protoscheme shell (with parens-less toplevel forms), immutable primitives and goroutines
<gp5st>it appears I need another base system first to install it on?
<davexunit>(we can't really call it that, though, as of now)
<davexunit>gp5st: are 'goroutines' just coroutines
<davexunit>because guile has delimited continuations and I've had my own coroutine implementation for about 2 years now.
<gp5st>davexunit: ?
<grumlee>davexunit: I can't say for sure how different goroutines are from vanilla coroutines
<davexunit>sorry, gotta go to work. will be back in a bit.
<grumlee>maybe it has to do with built-in channels
<grumlee>still #1 on HN, funny
<taylanub>goroutines have their own scheduler AFAIK
<grumlee>coroutines arent preemptive right ?
<grumlee>in it's basic form, it's collaborative concurrency
<grumlee>someone agrees with the preemptive side of goroutines
<davexunit>there's some actual discussion about guix on HN.
<davexunit>however, a lot of it is negative. :(
<davexunit>NIH, reinventing the wheel, that xkcd comic about standards, etc.
<jmd>WTF is HN FGS ?
<davexunit>jmd: hacker news
<taylanub>davexunit: that negativity is more in response to the negativity against guix :P
<_`_>davexunit: seems more misinformed than anything.
<davexunit>yeah, guess we just need to kindly inform them.
<davexunit>I left a few comments, but I'm now very busy dealing with post-launch fires at work.
<bavier`>davexunit: thanks for your responses
<_`_>The dichotomy between a “system package/package management” and a “language package/package management” is a bit exaggerated. The “system package manager” could make use of a “language's package manager” to install the software as a “system package”. And that's far from the only approach to that problem.
<_`_>Well at least it seems exaggerated to me.
<arca_vorago>Just wanted to drop in and say good stuff! Looking forward to the day when I start running fill GNU systems in prod.
<davexunit>arca_vorago: thank you! :)
<arca_vorago>np, just keep up the good work. BSD is dead, long live GNU.
<arca_vorago>join #reddit-sysadmin
***ChanServ changes topic to 'GNU Guix | | 0.8 is out! | This channel is logged, see <>.'
<paroneayea>congrats on the latest release!
<paroneayea>you all are kicking butt.
<davexunit>paroneayea: but are we taking names?
<jmd>ludo must be at the 0.8 launch party.
<davexunit>it's *very* exclusive
<jxself>You need to know scheme in order to get in.
<jxself>The secret code.
***jgay_ is now known as jgay
<jmd>Hydra seems slow. A lot of people must be trying 0.8
<davexunit>yay! but also boo!
<jmd>Somebody needs to give the ghostscript maintainer a kick up the backside.
*jxself gives jmd a steel-toed boot
<civodul>jmd: it's also that some of us (ahem) committed a bunch of things to master :-)
*civodul browses
<civodul>"Why not use Nix? Most importantly because it's not GNU; NIH is sadly a real problem for GNU.", write taylanub
<civodul>wow, i didn't expect that from you
<jmd>Does that make hydra slow?
<jxself>/win 12
<davexunit>civodul: the good news: we've been on the front page of HN all day.
<civodul>oh, i guess that must be cool ;-)
<davexunit>a lot of hits to our website :)
<davexunit>a lot of folks are skeptical and anti-GNU. no surprise.
<taylanub>civodul: I meant it in the sense that we can't trust non-GNU projects to fill central roles in GNU, so sometimes GNU has to make its own version of something... isn't that true?
<civodul>it's sounds quite theoritical, but it could be
<civodul>i was mostly surprised of Guix being depicted as "NIH"
<civodul>i thought the ethical and technical reasons were clearer
<civodul>probably that suggests that we've been miscommunicating ;-)
<jxself>Huh, taylanub? Non-gnu packages exist. Linux-libre and IceCat are examples of things being brought in.
<jxself>And are official GNU packages. The kernel's kinda important. :)
<taylanub>being official GNU packages is what I mean.
<jxself>Yeah, those are both official GNU packages.
<civodul>BTW, i spent 4 years hacking on Nix and 2 years hacking on Guix
<taylanub>civodul: as much as I like Scheme, I can't blame someone when they disapprove of forking/remaking something merely to do it in a different programming language. (then again, when it's Perl/C++ v. Scheme, that might actually be technically justified :P) re. the ethics, that's actually exactly what I mean: non-GNU projects can't be trusted to uphold the ideals in the long term (even if they're GPL
<taylanub>licensed for the time being), so GNU somehow has to make its own version... i.e. when I say "NIH is a problem for GNU" I don't mean it as in "it's a problem that GNU remakes things due to NIH," I mean it as in "things not being invented(*) at GNU is sadly an actual problem for GNU, i.e. NIH actually applies to GNU as a valid reason to remake something" (*) invent is of course the wrong term; "be
<taylanub>under the control of" is more like it
<taylanub>whev, wall of text :P
<civodul>well yeah, GNU started as "NIH" on purpose, so to speak
<civodul>but ok, i see your point, just found the "GNU is NIH" thing a bit offensive on a first read
<taylanub>indeed I see it now, am posting a clarification :\\
*jxself too
<taylanub>I forget that NIH simply has negative connotations
<civodul>heh, that's ok
<sirgazil>civodul: I won't be able to help with the Web site design after all. Sorry for that, but I have to focus on other stuff right now. I hope to come back to help GNU in the future :)
*sirgazil is Felipe López
<jxself>sirgazil is alive? :)
<jxself>Ahoy there.
<sirgazil>jxself: hey :)
<civodul>hello sirgazil!
<civodul>sirgazil: np, thanks for all your work!
<sirgazil>Hey :)
<sirgazil>My plesure
<civodul>it was more than what i would have hoped for ;-)
<civodul>nice job
*davexunit thinks about creating a repository of pre-made guix configurations for servers
<davexunit>like a configuration to create a working minetest server
<civodul>that would be useful
<civodul>although, well, there's perhaps a few things lacking for many use cases
<davexunit>such as?
<davexunit>one my longer term goals is to create a config for GNU mediagoblin so that it's easier for people to self-host.
<civodul>nothing precise in mind, but for instance i haven't gotten around to writing that mcron service
<civodul>and cron is often useful ;-)
<davexunit>ah, yes
<davexunit>I should write a minetest service for starters
<davexunit>if my ethernet device isn't listed in the output from ifconfig, does that mean the relevant kernel module hasn't loaded?
<civodul>try "ifconfig -a"
<civodul>and "dmesg | grep eth"
<civodul>good day/night!
<zdavis>I had trouble getting the network up as well, it may be worth a mention in the quick-start guide