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<Svetlana>The homepage mentions "GNU OS" is a broader term than "GUIX OS". Hm.
<tadni>Svetlana: Link?
<tadni>Are you saying the "download GNU" button on
<Svetlana> "Use gnu-system-discuss (archive) for discussions about the broader GNU system."
<tadni>Svetlana: If you are talking via mailing lists, yeah, but it's fine to talk about it me thinks in here or #gnu.
<Svetlana>I'm just not sure what the difference is.
<jxself>Guix is a package manager. :)
<jxself>Think of Guix as a part of the overall GNU system. A package manager alone does not an operating system make. :)
<tadni>jxself: What I think Svetlana is referring too the fact the "Download GNU Now" button on the homepage of takes one to the Free GNU/Linux distributions page and not to the Guix based system... though I could be wrong.
<jxself>It does indeed go there. Guix will be included once it's done with the endorsement process.
<jxself>RMS made it very clear that he didn't want the GNU system to be treated any differently from any other distros, so it will go through the exact same process.
<jxself>Less people running those FSF-endorsed distros feel like they're somehow "less" or something.
<tadni>Personally I'd like to see a dedicated page eventually to GNU, like my stated earlier to showcase some of it's features, but yeah -- having a central place to download a myriad of Free Software Distros is nice to have. Though I suppose saying we "officially support" this one is useful information though.
<jxself>Since none of the other distros get a dedicated page, that probably won't be happening... unless you manage to convince RMS. Feel free. :)
<tadni>None of the other distributions are officially supported by the GNU project though, besides gnewsense but that was a while ago.
<tadni>In a year though, once Guix has matured a bit more -- making such a case might be more worth it than now.
<jxself>Maybe, but it's RMS you must convince if you want it treated any differently from the other distros.
<jxself>So get busy: :)
<tadni>jxself: Well, I'll probably wait till Guix hits 1.0 or-so to actively push this agenda.
*tadni will be back in about 20 mins.
<tadni>Well, tornado warning ... so I'm not going anywhere for another 30 mins or so.
<Svetlana>Aw. :-(
<Svetlana>My personal feeling remains that package info for GUI stuff needs to contain details as to what DEs (currently GNUStep and GNOME are the main ones of interest) it looks pretty with. I should probably go and encourage all Free Distros to do so, too. As this is a major drawback of the free desktop. :S
<Svetlana> and 'modprobe kvm' doesn't help - I'll be at home in about 4 hours, had this problem in the morning
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<zacts>lo guix
<zacts>what is the advantage of a system like guix vs something like Slackbuilds (which have no out-of-box dependency management)?
<zacts>from a technical standpoint
<zacts>I'm interested in this project and another called Dragora Gnu/Linux
<civodul>zacts: hopefully answers your question
<civodul>if not, feel free to ask more :-)
<zacts>ok thanks!
<zacts>I guess one question I have is, will guix also work on resource intensive embedded systems?
<civodul>you mean systems without much CPU power and RAM?
<civodul>in theory, it should, but at the moment it's probably not very optimized
<DusXMT>Can anyone help the git noob out? How does one generate a patch with `git format-patch'? (I literally only know how to clone and pull with it)
<civodul>hey, DusXMT
<civodul>DusXMT: if your patch is on the tip of the current branch, try "git format-patch HEAD^"
<civodul>that should generate a .patch file
<DusXMT>civodul: thanks
<Svetlana>Hello. and 'modprobe kvm' doesn't help.
<DusXMT>Svetlana: Perhaps we could try without the image-just directly installing the installer system onto the USB drive? I can guide you through that
<civodul>Svetlana: perhaps "modprobe kvm-intel", if the machine supports Intel's extensions?
<civodul>what DusXMT wrote is another option worth considering, of course
<Svetlana>"modprobe: ERROR: could not insert 'kvm_intel': Operation not supported" although it /is/ an intel cpu here
*Svetlana already tried with sudo
<civodul>ah, maybe that CPU doesn't support virtualization extensions
<civodul>in that case, better follow the suggestion of DusXMT
<civodul>or delete occurrences of "-enable-kvm" in *.scm...
<philed>Ignorant newbie question: I take it I won't get intel wifi for this kernel (or any wifi?)
<DusXMT>philed: Atheros wifi works fine (Acer aspire one d255)
<DusXMT>but anything you need non-free firmware for, no
<philed>Cool, thanks. Do you like the laptop?
<DusXMT>No, not at all. It was just a single-cored atom based netbook, and it started breaking down after the warranty wore off. Now, 4 year later from when I bought it, it doesn't even get past the POST screen. Stay away from cheap computers
<philed>Yeah, I've had a couple of cheap ones, neither of which got past a year.
<DusXMT>Then I moght have been lucky, pulling it for 4 years
<jxself>It's been almost 3 weeks. The world seems to have entered a period of drought for kernel updates.
<civodul>heh :-)
<iyzsong>having guix on yeeloong is cool! any plan for a full installable system?
<civodul>iyzsong: it would be nice, but someone with such a machine would need to chime in ;-)
<civodul>in theory there shouldn't be many things to change, because IIUC GRUB can be used on that machine
*DusXMT pulls out his hair.
<DusXMT>Noobs like me shouldn't be let into a close distance of git.
<iyzsong>I'll see what I could do :)
<iyzsong>I'm runnig `guix package -i guix` on yeeloong now.
<civodul>oh, excellent
<civodul>let us know if something goes wrong
<civodul>are you using substitutes?
<civodul>DusXMT: tell me, what's wrong? :-)
<iyzsong>sure, the binary cache work well.
<DusXMT>civodul: I'm trying to produce the fixed patch for nvi. I think I'll get it this time though, but it's like 4 failiures already...
<civodul>DusXMT: oh, it shouldn't considered a series of failures
<civodul>even though i understand it may be frustrating
<civodul>it's really about making sure we agree on a set of conventions
<civodul>paperwork of sorts ;-)
<DusXMT>Sure, I understand...
<civodul>welcome, ijp :-)
<DusXMT>civodul: okay, sent, let's hope I didn't mess up again. I'm very sorry for my noobishness.
<davexunit>DusXMT: patience and persistence are key to getting the hang of rebasing. :)
<DusXMT>davexunit: If I wasn't stupid, I'd grab git's manual and actually learn to use the thing, but it's just so huge. I guess I should do it one day though.
<davexunit>rebasing is easy once you "get it".
<davexunit>tools like magit (emacs extension) make git easier to user, as well.
<Steap>DusXMT: git is an amazing tool with a crappy user interface :)
<iyzsong>oops, after a run of `guix pull`, the glibc disapear!
<iyzsong>on mipsel
<DusXMT>something similar happened to me on x86 a while ago, guix didn't register that glibc was installed
<DusXMT>but that was because of a bug that's already fixed, I think
<iyzsong>what I did is: build guix from git, then guix package -i guix, /gnu/store/*guix*/bin/guix pull
<DusXMT>iyzsong: Yup, that'll fail
<iyzsong>DusXMT: I'll build it again :-
<DusXMT>I believe the guix that is in /gnu/store/*guix*/, after you installed it, has it's own package database and isn't aware of /gnu/store/*glibc*, so it replaces it, but fails as it can't work without the C library
<DusXMT>iyzsong: what I can recommend: follow the README file on `Installing Guix from Guix', which explains how to install guix that will be self-dependent
<iyzsong>DusXMT: thanks, I'll read it
<iyzsong>DusXMT: well, it doesn't say why my way won't work
<DusXMT>iyzsong: Actually, my theory was only 50% true, I think
<iyzsong>I think /gnu/store/ should never be touched unless you run a gc.
<DusXMT>iyzsong: If you compiled guix with --prefix= (empty prefix), it should work
<iyzsong>never be deleted
<DusXMT>iyzsong: it simply works like that, I had the same exact problem, but with a running Guix system.
<DusXMT>I'm pretty sure you configured the original guix from git with --prefix=/usr/local (implict), which stores the store database in /usr/local/var/guix, but the guix from /store/*guix* expects it to be in /var/guix
<DusXMT>so the solution, I think, is to start from scratch, delete all of the guix files, and configure the guix from git with --prefix= (nothing)
<iyzsong>the better solution should be locate and fix this bug :)
<DusXMT>I don't think it's a bug, actually. Or maybe it is?
<civodul>iyzsong: what do you mean by "glibc disappears"?
<civodul>"guix pull" cannot cause the deletion of stuff from the store, nor from the profile
<civodul>aah, i see
<iyzsong>civodul: now there is no glibc in my /gnu/store
<civodul>--localstatedir is the thing
<civodul>you must make sure to install the new Guix with the same --localstatedir as the previous one
<civodul>otherwise the new one will think the store is empty
<civodul>yeah, that's actually quite dangerous, not sure how we could protect against that
<iyzsong>ok, i understand now, at least this should be mentioned in the manual
<civodul>or in "Installing Guix from Guix"
<iyzsong>any reason not using guix from guix/packages (by `guix package -i guix`)
<iyzsong>I like how nix/nixpkgs works
<civodul>hmm, what do you mean?
<civodul>hello, mark_weaver!
<iyzsong>or make it more clearly, seperate guix and gnu/packages
<dxk>I configured guix from git with --localstatedir=/var and then make but did not install
<civodul>aah, yes
<civodul>i wanted to avoid that
<civodul>iyzsong: the benefit is that we can change, say, the 'package' structure and update all the packages in the same transactions
<civodul>IOW, we can make sure everything is consistent
<mark_weaver>hi civodul!
<civodul>there are also drawbacks i suppose, but for the beginning at least that seemed more appropriate
<dxk>I ran guix-daemon with the pre-inst-env, then installed guix with guix package -i
<dxk>That seemed to work, and survived a guix pull
<iyzsong>got it
<civodul>dxk: yeah as long as $localstatedir has the right value, everything is fine
<DusXMT>Is there a way to install CA certificates using guix? On my gnu system, I tried to download guix from git, but it failed on the ./bootstrap script, as it couldn't check the certificate. Of course this can be worked around, but I would rather fix it if I can
<DusXMT>I didn't see any package called ca-certificates or similar, and I have both openssl and gnutls installed
<davexunit>DusXMT: our CA cert situation isn't great right now. I believe mark_weaver has plans to improve it.
<DusXMT>davexunit: Thanks]
<davexunit>for now, you can copy /etc/ssl from a debian installation and tweak the necessary env vars to make it work.
<davexunit>the less safe route is to 'export GIT_NO_VERIFY_SSL=true'
*tandi is looking into packaging clisp, to possibly get stumpwm at some point.
<civodul>there's already gcl, not sure if stumpwm can use it
<tandi>civodul: To what I'm aware, it only supports clisp and sbcl.
<tandi>I'm not sure what the deal with contrib in stumpwm, in the following releaes. They are seperated now, but the last release (Feb) had it still together.
<tandi>So that might be somewhat "problematic" going on ward/
<civodul>how problematic?
<tandi>Sans the Stumpwm though, Feh, Scrot, and Rtorrent are the only applications I use on a regular basis that aren't packaged yed. Sadly the latter 3, I wasn't able to package the night of the hackathon ... I got migraine and just went to bed early that day. I'm not sure if I'll have a lot of free time between then and the next hackathon either (last friday of this month) to do anything substaintal either ... Such is life. :^P
<tandi>At least, by the time 1.0 hits though ... I should be able to fully convert over, so I have some time regardless.
<civodul>damn, are there regular Guix hackathons?
<civodul>or was it at a local hackerspace?
<tandi>civodul: Local. STL (Saint Louis, Mid America) has a "Code Until Dawn" event every last friday of the month starting at 5pm and going to sunrise.
<civodul>oh, sounds cool
<tandi>Last week's would've been my first, assuming I didn't have that major headpain. When it hurts to look at light, it's a no-go for staring at a screen for four plus hours ... bummer too, I was excited.
<tandi>I pretty much plan to go every month in the concievable future, and package 2-3+ things if possible, for guix though.
<tandi>Emms, Clisp, Stumpwm, Rtorrent, Feh, Scrot, and maybe openbox are all on my list thusfar. Hoping to nail the first three by the time this month's over. School and this part-time job has been a huge sink of productivity, sadly in this realm.
<tandi>Also possibly Wicd, I don't know what would be the best route to get wireless "working" on Guix at this point. :^P
<ijp>is there a list online of all the currently packaged, er, packages
<tandi>ijp: Yeah. give me a sec.
<tandi>I kinda wish we had a place people could suggest people to package. Besides the big ones like a DE and related software, I don't know what are "big attractors" in a distro.
<davexunit>if we had a wiki, we could ask people to add to the wishlist.
<tandi>I mean ideally we have as much free software as possible, but putting prioty on packages that a lot of people care about, I think is nifty information to put in flace.
<civodul>there are so many things to package that we can afford loose coordination, i think :-)
<davexunit>it would be interesting to know what potential users find missing
<tandi>civodul: Yeah, my only "concern" is by 1.0, if it gets some publicity and we don't have packages people use for their day-to-day, so they lose interest.
<tandi>davexunit: A wiki might be a good route to go, for such a thing.
<davexunit>tadni: so, first task: package mediawiki :P
<davexunit>I'm actually really interested in how to package web applications like that
<davexunit>and the extensions
<davexunit>and managing the configuration.
<tandi>davexunit: Yeah, I think that's an area worth exploring. Parenoya (close enough) has expressed interest in this too for MG.
<davexunit>yeah, packaging mediagoblin would be fantastic
<davexunit>"here's an operating-system config that creates a fully operating mediagoblin instance"
<jxself>+1 to that
<tandi>davexunit: Oh man, yeah that would be neat!
<tandi>Yeah, I imagine that the install image will one day be loaded with a /etc/config/ folder with boatloads of handy config.scm files. :^)
<davexunit>I guess I should start slowly chipping away at packaging the python libraries that gmg needs
*tandi checks how many MG depends guix still needs.
<davexunit>a ton, I'm sure.
<tandi>davexunit: Looks like 3. python-imaging, python-lxml, python-virtualenv.
<davexunit>we should be able to ditch virtualenv
<davexunit>guix obsoletes it
<tandi>Ideally, I'd like to see Hurd and MG support by 1.0. Probably the two biggest, realisticish goals. Don't see GNOME happening for quite sometime.
<davexunit>maybe if some GNOME folks helped out...
<DusXMT>tandi: I don't even think Gnome (3.8 and up) is possible, unless someone (The OpenBSD folks proposed that they'd do this) implements an alternative to systend
<tandi>davexunit: Well yeah, but I don't suspect Guix will get a notable amount of press till 1.0 and/or until we have a relatively non-alpha distro install.
<tandi>DusXMT: 3.10, I belive was implemented on a BSD recetnly.
<DusXMT>Okay, that's only good
<tandi>Also, I think if the GNU disto gets "big enough" hopefully SystemD won't be a hard-depend ... hopeful thinking maybe, but I would hope a GNU project would want to run on GNU tech.
*DusXMT wonders what MG is
<tandi>DusXMT: Mediagoblin, a GNU project for media hosting -- kinda like a youtube, flickr hybrid.
<DusXMT>Ah, neat
<ijp>DusXMT: a megagauss
<tandi>DusXMT: It's probably my favorite, non-Guile, non-GNOME, GNU project right now. Neat stuff. They are currently working on federation.
***tandi is now known as tadni_