<svetlana>ok, so you told me that the 0.7 'image' is an image of an installer, not an os. I need to think where I'll install it /to/. what does installer do about this? is it happy if I point it to an existing partition, or an existing usb flash drive?
<tadni>Also, unless you are ready to go without a GUI and without Wireless, without a fair amount of work -- I wouldn't use the install image for another release or so.
<tadni`>svetlana: Ludo (I think I never got a conformation in this, but it appears to be the case) accidentally shipped guix 0.6 in the 0.7 install image. You'll need to "guix pull" as root and "guix package -i guix" then to grab the latest, but wpa-supplicant and wireless-tools are in the latest release.
<tadni`>davexunit has been playing with it and you can probably talk to him tomorrow if he was sucessful.
<tadni`>I'm not sure of the Gui situation, besides it is more-or-less hardcoded to use windowmaker at this point.
<tadni`>svetlana: I'd say 4 gigs minimum if you want to install anything above the base-system. I don't know the number off hand, nor know how to calculate it. I guess I could look how big my store is ... all I have in it besides the base-system is Emacs ... but the installer has a fair amount of stuff not in the base-install of guix on a host system.
<tadni`>sjamaan: Not to my knowledge, though such a thing might be a good idea. Really once we have a user base of about 100, I think a focus should be to establish some sort of community board to make decisions like what they have in Debian or the like.
<tadni`>Right now you have to classes of users you want to satisfy, the technical user and the layman both of which have very different needs. The technical user will be the one you need/should cover first, because they will be the one's supporting your platform for the most part.
<tadni`>This is why, while a psuedo-to-actually-graphical installer, while I think is important, should not be a prime focus now.
<sjamaan>Will Guix be targeted at the complete beginner (like, say, Ubuntu or Elementary OS)?
<sjamaan>I think it's important to have some sort of scope or target audience
<tadni`>Ideally, I'd like to see GNU be more-or-less the development tool of the GNOME project ... I think we may be to late on this front, but I think such an audience is really important in the foss community.
<sjamaan>You'll get pulled apart by competing forces if you target technical people _and_ beginners, I think
<tadni`>sjamaan: We'll probably have a core distro and "spins" like Fedora or Ubuntu, especially seeing how easy it is to derive a new guix based system.
<sjamaan>Technical people prefer to understand their system and have it be "simple" in that sense
<sjamaan>Beginners would tend to prefer things to just be "intuitive" (whatever that means)
<svetlana>I agree. I am asking just enough to figure things out; not demanding you to waste time on an installer. The relevant things are (or will be) in the documentation anyway. (I heard that being graphical does not necessarily mean being easier to comprehend.) :)
<tadni`>It's not up to me though, right now the direction is mostly in the hands of Ludo and hopefully at some point a group body.
<Steap>sjamaan: SInce we won't package non-free crap, I think it won't be suitable for real beginners :)
<sjamaan>Steap: That's a bit defeatist, don't you think? :)
<tadni`>Steap: Really, the only non-free tool I now a lot of people won't give up is Skype. I'm hoping Tox really catches on in this regard.
<svetlana>gnome is so much different from windowmaker that I can't imagine GUIX a development tool for it until (i) you're doing that from within gnome, or (ii) these two things become integrated better.
<tadni`>sjamaan: Drivers become less and less of an issue each year though. Not saying it will go away, but when I started using GNU+Linux like 5-6 years ago ... it was near impossible it seemed to have wireless drivers working out of the box, 3 laptops later and never had a problem since.
<svetlana>I don't think we need to worry about people using nonfree things -- drivers are being added in, there is gnash, and people can live without skype anyway
<Steap>tadni`: you still have a lot of wifi cards that require a non-free firmware
<tadni`>Steap: True, but it's a trend that appears to be getting better and I hope will continue to.
<sjamaan>Until the next new technology comes along ;(
<tadni`>2015-16 will be a very solid new beginning to the GNU System I think. Both GNOME3 and Guix will be pretty mature, so will Tox.
<tadni`>It's a very promising future to a FOSS advocate, now we just need to get better at selling ourselves and our purpose... which is arguably harder.
<sjamaan>Convincing people that software freedom is important seems to be extremely difficult
<sjamaan>They want shiny features and "access to the code" (or even asking someone else to change it for you) is too technical
<tadni`>sjamaan: I think a fair amount of the difficulty is sadly that our software, from the UI perspective has been lacking until recently. It's sad that it matters to so many people ... but it's an important factor.
<tadni`>I think the FSF should really invest in teaching materials. Empowering people to learn how to code (and I think that this should be a mandatory part of public education going onward) I think will convince a lot more people that such things are important.
<tadni`>sjamaan: People are not willing to make compromises for freedom. It's understandable, but sad... both for them not willing to do such things, but too that we've been lacking so much until very recently.
<tadni`>GNOME3.x is really the first Free Software Desktop I've put non-technical people in front of and not actively instruct them what to do.
<sjamaan>The danger in that is that when we can create something that's as easy to use as the proprietary programs they're using now, they might switch back to using proprietary software as soon as something easier to use comes out
<sjamaan>Trying to win people over by competing purely on features and ease of use is the wrong battle
<Steap>You do realize everybody uses VLC because VLC just kicks ass, not because it's Free ? :p
<tadni`>sjamaan: Yeah, but the idea is that we actively state that freedom is the primary matter -- but lure people in by showing that the don't have to make compromises in-terms of usability (the scary bit).
<sjamaan>Steap: But those VLC users will switch back as soon as something easier to use comes out, or with better features. See also how many people switched from Firefox to Google Chrome
<tadni`>"Linux" has such a negative association to it for being completely textual and scary and it's a stigma that is going to be hard to lose.
<tadni`>Steap: Give them shinny features, but also advertise the importance of freedom while doing so. Telling people about Window's backdoors is also a good thing and assuring such a thing won't happen on "GNU".
<Mathnerd314>just that; they never change, they always have the same SHA256 hash, etc.
<davexunit>you can upgrade package descriptions easily.
<FracV>I don't know much about nix, but from what I *do* know I'm fairly certain the point is to use a purely functional language to handle dependencies really nicely, including for updating and rolling back versions of packages
<davexunit>Mathnerd314: I think you've missed the point.
<Mathnerd314>davexunit: not really, last time I tried (a few days ago) it took IIIgIIIIIIgII = 14 steps. "easy" is pushing a button = I = 1 step
<Mathnerd314>(g is using grep, which AFAIK only programmers can do)
<davexunit>as a developer, to update a package you do 2 things: change the version string, update the sha256 string of the source tarball.
<Mathnerd314>davexunit: you left out finding the version string, calculating the sha256, and testing the change (As I said, 14 steps)
<davexunit>Mathnerd314: I don't see your point. if it's that some of this process could be automated, then I agree.
<davexunit>but I don't think that upgrading a debian package is any easier.
<davexunit>and the point about users not knowing how to use grep is irrelevant, because we're talking about developers here.
<Steap>Mathnerd314: you seem to hate both Nix and Guix
<Mathnerd314>upgrading a debian package: apt-get install --only-updates <package>. And that took IIII=4 steps to find; if I was using Debian it'd probably be 1 or 2
<Mathnerd314>Steap: yes, I hate them because they are technically superior to Debian but, in practice, inferior.
<Steap>Mathnerd314: well, you sound a bit like "this shit sucks"
<Steap>so nothing is ever going to come out of this conversation
<davexunit>Mathnerd314: you just described the process of upgrading a package as user!
<davexunit>that is not what a developer does to update the package that is debian's repository.
<Steap>I suggest you propose some changes that would make Guix better
<Mathnerd314>I suggested " make updating easier than Debian by a factor of 1000", and you said "we'll carefully review your patch". I interpreted that as sarcasm meaning that if I wrote a patch it would be rejected
<Mathnerd314>Steap: and I have no idea who you are, so we're even
<Steap>you came here to explain that Nix sucks and that, in the end, you don't like Guix and have no intention of doing anything
<Steap>well, I've been on this chan for quite a while
<Steap>Mathnerd314: we'll fucking read it, until then we're not feeding any more :)
<Mathnerd314>but I already submitted a patch (to a different project), and they read it and said "fuck your patch". The bug has been sitting in their bug tracker for 4 years now, open, with nobody fixing or reading it.
<Mathnerd314>"I'm not sure what the reasoning is behind this bug, really (or why the current code exists). What benefit is there to applying this patch?". Then there was a long discussion.. but no conclusion
<jxself>Submitting a patch to a project is no guarantee of acceptance. Actual acceptance depends on many factors.
<Mathnerd314>and AFAICT these factors are always "is submitter in my list of accepted submitters? if so, accept. otherwise, reject."
<sjamaan>still looking for a system to layout a complex database schema readably
<Mathnerd314>jmd: well, kind of. I can make the decision, but I can't determine if it was the correct one.
<jmd>Mathnerd314: Ahh no. If we could do that, then we would be gods.
<Mathnerd314>jmd: I've gone to a couple talks where people do modeling simulations of the world and figure out the right decisions. so it's definitely possible. But you're right, they used supercomputers which are unavailable to mere mortals :-)
<jmd>Supercomputers are used to predict the weather. Sometimes they are correct...
<Mathnerd314>yeah, there were weather talks, but also materials science and economics
<Mathnerd314>jmd: but there's nothing in the NFL theorem that says you can't immediately determine your results are incorrect.
<jmd>I am getting this problem after building: cycle detected in the references of `/gnu/store/3gq9hcbdng1wp0zpmrxpqijv0djd12h0-gcj-4.8.3-lib'
<taylanub>is it fine to use Guile functions introduced later than 2.0.5 in package recipes? because the README etc. say version 2.0.5+ is needed for Guix, and I just noticed 2.0.5 not having `alist-delete' which comes in handy when inheriting from a package then removing some inputs