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<davexunit>woo, tornado warning here in boston. I would laugh at this if one didn't actually touch down in this state 3 years ago.
<civodul>crossing fingers...
<davexunit>funnel cloud seen, but no touch downs.
<bavier>civodul: re i686 glib, the old version couldn't cross-compile either, so I don't have any way to test the i686 build
<civodul>bavier: it's native compilation on i686 that fails, not cross-compilation
<civodul>(you can do that with "guix build glib -s i686-linux" from x86_64)
<civodul>it's hard to tell if it's a transient error or not, though
*civodul -> zZz
<civodul>talk to you tomorrow!
<DusXMT>In a multiuser system, how is guix installed? (i.e. is there a system-wide profile to which I can install the dependencies of guix, or should I dedicate a user for it?)
<DusXMT>Okay, I went for the latter
<jmd>Debugging an installed program, all the symbol information seems to be missing.
<davexunit>how easy is it to generate an installation image for i686 instead of x86_64?
<civodul>davexunit: trivial! :-)
<civodul>guix system disk-image gnu/system/install.scm -s i686-linux
<civodul>also with --image-size=850MiB or so
<davexunit>cool. the FSF is going to let me borrow a thinkpad x60s, but it's 32 bit only.
<civodul>oh, actually -s is missing
<civodul>woow, cool
<davexunit>since guix is 100% free software :)
<civodul>i was looking at conkeror.scm and just discovered that we can do this:
<civodul>(define-module (gnu packages conkeror)
<civodul> #:use-module ((guix licenses) #:prefix license:)
<civodul>and i thought i new Guile
<civodul>davexunit: yeah, we'll have to restart the FSF procedure to get listed among the free distros
<davexunit>didn't know about #:prefix
<davexunit>civodul: did you already try before?
<civodul>they wanted a bootable system
<davexunit>oh okay.
<davexunit>was that from the licensing team?
<jmd>I want to debug an installed application. But that is not possible, because the binaries are stripped. Is it possible to build without stripping?
<civodul>jmd: see "Installing Debugging Files" in the manual
<civodul>that may answer your question
<civodul>and "Build Systems"
<jmd>ok. Thanks
<jmd>Actually, I don't quite follow it.
<jmd>It says the strip phase copies the file to the debug output WHEN AVAILABLE.
<jmd>So when and under what circumstances is it available?
<civodul>when the package explicitly has (output '("debug" ...))
<civodul>that's the case for glibc and a few others
<civodul>try "guix package -A|grep debug"
<jmd>I find that odd.
<jmd>It would be better to have that implicit.
<davexunit>civodul: thanks for the link. reading it.
<jmd>(output '("out" "debug")) should be the default
<davexunit>civodul: I see that jason self said that patching tarballs programatically after download isn't good enough?
<civodul>jmd: you did read the last paragraph of "Installing Debugging Files", right? :-)
<jmd>Yes. I did.
<civodul>davexunit: yes, that's what led to the 'patches' and 'snippets' things
<civodul>so that part is solved, AIUI
<davexunit>oh okay.
<civodul>but in hindsight that was really cosmetic
<davexunit>I guess I misinterpreted.
<civodul>Guix does much better than just "provide the exact source"
<davexunit>I thought we'd have to host our own tarballs
<davexunit>of patched source.
<civodul>we provide the exact build scripts, unlike other distros
<civodul>no, i don't think so
<jmd>civodul: I don't expect hydra to host the debug packages, but I'd like to be able to build them myself without having to hack the package files.
<davexunit>civodul: I'm not very familiar with debian packaging, but they don't provide exact build scripts?
<civodul>they do, but the environment isn't under control
<civodul>so sometimes, they find out that although they distribute binaries, these cannot actually be rebuilt from source
<civodul>Lucas Nussbaum did some experiments years ago on a large cluster we have here
<civodul>in France, i mean
<civodul>and yeah, sometimes they'd distribute foo.deb, but foo would actually fail to build from source
<davexunit>oh I see. because there could be needed libs installed on a machine that aren't in the package recipe
<davexunit>so the build is successful, but it shouldn't be
<civodul>or the package maintainer manually tweaked the build
<davexunit>cool. glad I'm aware of those issues now.
<davexunit>I hear people say "debian did it already" about some guix features
<davexunit>now I can resond better.
<civodul>about which features, actually?
<davexunit>package recipes with the exact steps to build a binary from source.
<davexunit>also, I guess there's an experimental peer-to-peer feature for apt
<davexunit>because it got mentioned when I talked about substitutes from other user's machines
<davexunit>oh, speaking of substitutes: is there any reason that isn't authorized in the disk images that guix system produces?
<civodul>substitutes are just pre-built binaries, only fully automated
<civodul>re authorization, it's just that i wasn't sure about the default
<civodul>some people dislike the idea of getting binaries from somewhere else
<civodul>at any rate, 'guix-service' has an option to authorize automatically
<civodul>it's used in the installation image
<davexunit>awesome. I figured there was a bit I could flip. :)
<civodul>maybe that should be the default, dunno
<davexunit>I'm interested in trying to use Guix to take on Vagrant in some way.
<davexunit>vagrant is used to quickly create VMs for developing a specific piece of software. maintainers dump a Vagrantfile into their project's source tree and contributors simply run `vagrant up` to get a development environment.
<civodul>i think i read about it in the past
<civodul>it probably has a better interface than Guix for that
<davexunit>yeah, it's tailored to that
<civodul>since that's not really Guix's "core business" as they say ;-)
<davexunit>but, I looked at some project's Vagrantfiles
<davexunit>and to me they looked like Ruby versions of Guix systems.
<civodul>it's declarative?
<davexunit>it's not *exactly* like guix, of course, but it had similarities.
<davexunit>with vagrant, you usually start from a base VM image like the latest ubuntu LTS or something, whereas in guix you'd build a whole new system.
<davexunit>a simple Vagrantfile:
<davexunit>don't know one off the top of my head that configures more services
<civodul>that's interesting
<davexunit>it seems to me that all that I would need to do is create a VM that shares the needed source directory with the host machine.
<civodul>there's definitely common ideas between this, Chef, Puppet, etc. and NixOS/NixOps
<davexunit>yeah, it's sort of confusing
<civodul>VMs created with 'guix system vm' share their store with the host, over an 9p mount
<civodul>one could add another 9p file system declaration to share something else
<davexunit>yeah, that's what I was thinking.
<davexunit>regarding puppet, it seems to rely on a center "puppet master" server that keeps the other machines in sync. that concept doesn't seem to translate to guix.
<civodul>ah right
<civodul>but it uses a declarative approach as well, no?
<davexunit>but since you can manage configs easily with guix, I can only imagine there's a way to keep a bunch of guix machines in sync with each other.
<civodul>yes, definitely
<civodul>that's how "NixOps" (the puppet-like thing of NixOS) saw the light, actually
<davexunit>I should take a look at that, then.
<davexunit>we have a pretty broken puppet setup here at the FSF
<civodul>so what is it like to be at the FSF? :-)
<civodul>i can imagine :-)
<civodul>you're working with other web/admin people?
<davexunit>a bunch of technical debt to pay back
<davexunit>primarily with our senior sysadmin, lisa maginnis
<davexunit>I am going to be the assistant chief GNU webmaster for a bit, it seems.
<civodul>sounds cool
<civodul>probably a bit intimidating as well
<davexunit>a lot of stuff to do
<davexunit>a lot to learn
<davexunit>trying my best
<davexunit>I left a well paying job to help the free software movement so I hope I do well here and make a life's career out of it.
<davexunit>in free software, not necessarily at the FSF, of course.
<civodul>yeah, tough choice
<civodul>were you working as a developer?
<civodul>as mark once said, it's encouraging to see people make moves like this
<davexunit>I can always go back if need be, but I want to continue down this road as long as possible.
<davexunit>thank you for the support. :)
<davexunit>it's 5PM. to the train! ttyl!