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2013-09-29.log
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<civodul>maybe that doesn't work if you're not registered or something <civodul>i'm a bit surprised rms didn't mention the history of GNU or anything like that <usrnix>civodul: I imagine it's because he was talking to an audience of verteran free software activists so it was kinda redundant to explain much <usrnix>I liked the condensed overview the the concerns we face though <jxself>It's funny that people ask RMS to use Skype. It's like "Here - Let's email the President of the FSF and founder of the free software movement and ask him to use proprietary software." <civodul>usrnix: yes, i liked that he started by listing current threats <usrnix>jxself: prank emails from microsoft :P <dasdadasdf>jxself: is there a recording of the dinner? or was it actually a dinner, so there was nothing to record? <DNS>jxself: win 16 i thought m$ is there with win 8, you have a demo version? <youlysses>jxself: Nope, just got home from eating -- there's some family weekend thing at the college down here and they were visiting my sister and asked if I wanted to eat. Now we're taking a short break, and probably meeting backup in said 2 or-so hours. I'm doubtful that there is a link already to download... :^U <zooko>I'm at the gnu-30 party at MIT, hackathoning on Tahoe-LAFS. <zooko>I would like to know if there's anything I can do to help guix-packaging of tahoe-lafs. <zooko>I know that it was already packaged in nix. <zooko>Oh, I guess automated unit tests on hydra broke while 1.8.3 was current. <zooko>Anyway, I think guix is an awesome idea, and I want Tahoe-LAFS to be easy to include in guix packages. <jxself>Most of the people in this channel are probably sleeping though. <mark_weaver>jxself: btw, you were right about the YeeLoong 8101Bs no longer being produced. Apparently the one I just ordered was from stock. <c107>And, right now, the only good computers are form 2010 or 2011. <c107>Ugh... My head is aching. I have to sleep. I hope I get those boring essays finished. <jxself>Well, RMS did mention this in his talk today: Eventually we'll have to start making our own. <mark_weaver>indeed, we will have to take up that challenge. I guess Novena will be a good start, if the GPU can be reverse engineered (I don't remember those details though), and longer-term MilkyMist is quite promising. <mark_weaver>(though I know that the web feed was lost for much of the talk :-( <mark_weaver>the problem was a poor quality A->D converter.. I borrowed a high-quality one from MIT's radio station. <mark_weaver>but I wish I'd made my own independent audio recording, at least.. but I thought the equipment would be more reliable :-( <jxself>Was it that long? It didn't feel like it. <mark_weaver>I don't know, it was Nico or Ward's estimate (I don't remember which) <roelj>When I start emacs from a guix build I don't have the DeJaVu Mono font available. (When I start emacs provided by Debian I have this font). Is there some way to fix that? <roelj>Is it the bitstream-vera package I need to install? <davi>However I do not think so <davi>Maybe it is not packaged yet <davi>It is said creating a guix package is very easy <youlysses>roelj: To what I'm aware, Dejavu isn't packaged for Guix yet (I have interest in doing this), though vera (at least iirc) is what dejavu is based off -- so it should be aesthetically fairly similar. <davi>I think Debian split it in three packages: <davi>ttf-dejavu - Metapackage to pull in ttf-dejavu-core and ttf-dejavu-extra <davi>ttf-dejavu-core - Vera font family derivate with additional characters <davi>ttf-dejavu-extra - Vera font family derivate with additional characters <roelj>Just out of curiosity, why can't it find the fonts installed in /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ ? <davi>Maybe because Guix uses a different file-system organisation than Debian? <youlysses>roelj: I'm by no-means an expert, but I'd assume because Guix distro is more-or-less self-contained. You could probably set load-paths to get everything working but I don't have the brain power, before I pass out -- to figure that out right now, sorry... :^P <davi>roelj, Do you have X working? <roelj>On Debian, yes. I haven't tried X with Guix to be honest.. <youlysses>davi: roelj: Assuming I have the free-time later and I can figure out what the problem I'm having building/installing cmake is -- I'll hopefully have the SLiM login-manager up and going, so at the very least -- it'll be easy to test xorg via the bootable qemu-image, in the relatively short-term. :^) <youlysses>Okay -- well I'm going to try taking that nap again, I'll be back some-point later today, but I need to check over and submit a paper first, beforehand. :^) <roelj>youlysses: That sounds pretty cool. I think I've found a solution for the missing DeJaVu fonts (make a symlink on $HOME/.font/). <civodul>youlysses: if you're done with gl.scm, you can post it and probably we'll just go ahead a commit it <civodul>it seemed to be in a good shape yesterday already <youlysses>civodul: I was actually going to see if I could get glew working, but I suppose I could just file a patch later for that. :^P <youlysses>Well, nvm for now -- glew doesn't seem to have a ./configure either. :^P <youlysses>civodul: Like repost it on the mailing list? I still haven't got my general git account info setup get. :^P <civodul>youlysses: yes, please send the output of 'git format-patch' to the list <civodul>you can double-check in 'HACKING' info about commit logs etc. <dasdadasdf>civodul: re mips: i changed bootstrap.scm like you did, but guix build failed while building make-boot0. it couldn't find bzip2. did i mess anything up, or should i simply install bzip2? <civodul>dasdadasdf: could you paste what you have plus the error message? <civodul>did you provide mips64el-linux/{mkdir,xz,bash,tar,guile-2.0.x.tar.xz}? <civodul>i'm sorry the code is sufficiently clear to allow you to do it on your own ;-) <civodul>this is an email notification channel <civodul>dasdadasdf: in the specified directory? <civodul>if so, can you check whether it runs? <dasdadasdf>civodul: i'm getting "cannot execute binary file" <civodul>dasdadasdf: it is the same for all the binaries or just that one? <usrnix>are package scripts in the gnu directory in guix things packaged as gnu guix and the nix dir are old packages from nix? <dasdadasdf>usrnix: are you trying to say that /nix/store contains the packages from Nixpkgs, and gnu/packages contains the Guix packages? <dasdadasdf>usrnix: gnu/packages contains the recipes, i.e., package descriptions. <civodul>Guix doesn't depend on Nix nor Nixpkgs <civodul>spoiler: within a few months, we'll switch from /nix/store to /gnu/store :-) <viric>will 'store' be the only citizen at /gnu? <dasdadasdf>usrnix: /nix/store contains binaries and so-called derviations <viric>I mean, is /gnu born at the same time as /gnu/store ? <civodul>viric: it's just a thought i had on the aesthetics of all this <civodul>there's no technical reason behind it <dasdadasdf>usrnix: Guix and Nix can coexist, but i wouldn't recommend that since Nixpkgs contains nonfree programs <dasdadasdf>you should be able to find a bit more in the manual <dasdadasdf>civodul: so, any ideas regarding the bzip2 problem? <civodul>dasdadasdf: bzip2 uses a crappy build system, that's the reason <civodul>viric: you probably know how to cross-compile it, don't you? :-) <usrnix>can I remote base32 and just put a sha256 in the package? <civodul>usrnix: it just means that we provide the base32 representation of the hash <civodul>if you remove 'base32', you have to provide a bytevector, which looks like #vu8(43 23 43 54 ...) <dasdadasdf>civodul: this article is well written. basically, it says the same as the announcement. <civodul>usrnix: you can use "guix hash" or "guix download" to get the base32 sha256 <zooko>dasdadasdf: not right now -- we're organizing in-person hackathon at MIT right now... <usrnix>civodul: so if I run guix hash on the sha256sum file? <dasdadasdf>usrnix: iirc it would calculate sha256sum first, then convert it to base32 <dasdadasdf>civodul should be able to correct me if i'm wrong <civodul>usrnix: no, just "guix hash foo.tar.gz" <dasdadasdf>civodul: re bzip2: so is it necessary to patch the recipe? should I try that? <usrnix>'guix download ..url..' produced 'guix download: error: failed to connect to `/usr/local/var/nix/daemon-socket/socket': No such file or directory' <dasdadasdf>civodul: re the article: one comment says: "i don't understand why they don't use something like JavaScript instead of Guile" <usrnix>because javascript is terrible and guile is awesome :) <civodul>dasdadasdf: working on fixing bzip2 cross-compilation <dasdadasdf>another commenter suggests to change /nix/store/hash-package to /nix/store/package-hash. i think we should mention in the faq that people are not supposed to touch the store at all. <civodul>in a few years, you'll see: "i don't understand why they use JavaScript and not Guile" <civodul>usrnix: make sure the daemon is running <davexunit>I write javascript at work, but I want to fight javascript being used outside of the web browser. <usrnix>civodul: Yea I just went to run it with --build-users-group=guix-builder, do I have to add this group manually? <davexunit>because quite simply: many better options exist. <Steap>davexunit: what do you think of JS in Firefox OS ?:p <dasdadasdf>davexunit: you may try to compile to JavaScript instead of writing it. <davexunit>civodul: yeah, but at least there are other options with GNOME :) <jxself>Ah, woot. I'm installing my first package into the VM. <davexunit>as a web developer, I want to fight other web developers turning system level programming into psuedo-web programming. <davexunit>"no really guys, ruby and javascript aren't the only programming languages that exist!" <dasdadasdf>jxself: iirc something was wrong with the net inside the vm <jxself>It works enough that I can do guix package -i wget <dasdadasdf>usrnix: what do you mean by "inputs"? could you provide an example? <dasdadasdf>iiuc, you may check the recipe (e.g., gnu/packages/autotools.scm) or build something with --dry-run. <usrnix>ah yea it's just multiple brackets *Steap fallsback to compiling packages a lot. Not sure whether it's because of Guile's http client or not :/ <usrnix>is it necessary to list pkg-config? that's a typical build-system thing isn't it? <civodul>Steap: Hydra is kinda unhappy currently; what do you end up compiling? <civodul>usrnix: yes, it's necessary to list it <Steap>civodul: well, almost everything :) <Steap>civodul: funnily enough, flex test suite fails on my machine <dasdadasdf>civodul: maybe we should talk to djbclark regarding the access to Argonne National Labs <civodul>Steap: i committed a fix this morning <civodul>dasdadasdf: yes; he's the one who provided the machine to viric, who eventually gave it to me, who passed it to Andreas <usrnix>"useradd -g guix-builder -G guix-builder" doesn't work in ubuntu? <usrnix>my bad, it was a multiple-line command <usrnix>although: "useradd: invalid shell '-c'" <dasdadasdf>usrnix: not sure about invalid shell, but do you know that ubuntu contains spyware and non-free packages? <alip2890>if the store mustn't be touched, how do you change configuration files? <usrnix>dasdadasdf: Yea, I'll get it off soon, put it to check harddrive was still alive and havent gotten around to removing it <usrnix>just having difficulty getting the guix-daemon running, probably my fault for not reading properly <usrnix>it seems to hang when i run the guix-daemon command <dasdadasdf>there are tools to manipulate the store, but most users should be satisfied with the guix something commands <usrnix>Ah. I was just thinking that, thanks <civodul>jxself: it has little extra room :-/ <usrnix>how do I test a package I just made? <dasdadasdf>usrnix: try to pass & after the command or try to install in a different tty <civodul>usrnix: ./pre-inst-env guix build the-package <usrnix>dasdadasdf: Yea I did and that worked <jxself>So what do you think? I did it right? *jxself thinks git is such a pain <usrnix>civodul: it says unknown package, im putting the filename after build <usrnix>oh, do I need to put my new package in a directory for guix to pick it up? <jxself>I suppose that's the next step to figure out. <usrnix>I have to recompile guix to add another package? <usrnix>Oh, maybe I'm confused because I installed guix and didn't just make it in a directory <dasdadasdf>it might save you a lot of time in case anything fails <usrnix>dasdadasdf: I just did ./configure && make <usrnix>running make again is just producing 'entering/leaving directory ...' <dasdadasdf>after that you should be able to run ./pre-inst-env guix build -K your-package-name to test it <jxself>Is there no text editor in the VM? <usrnix>dasdadasdf: it seems stuck on "PASS: tests/hash.scm" <usrnix>ok I'll leave it going, nothing is using much power <usrnix>Is it needed for an unmodified tarball version? <dasdadasdf>sorry, i assumed that you're using a git checkout. <usrnix>On a wittle laptop, might take ages <dasdadasdf>usrnix: if you want to package things, consider using the checkout. <jxself>No, run from git - It's evil. :) <dasdadasdf>but the git repo would have the latest and greatest <dasdadasdf>so yeah, i think you can try to build you package. again, sorry for the confusion. <usrnix>Ha, looking at the gtk package, I don't think my gtk+ package is going to work :P <civodul>usrnix: if you typed (define-module (gnu packages foo)), that needs to be stored in gnu/packages/foo.scm <usrnix>Oh. Thankfully I didn't try that as root, it was about to compile a planets-worth of programs <usrnix>civodul: You mean if I list a module it has to exist? <alip2890>dasdadasdf, which tools do you have in mind for manipulating the store? <dasdadasdf>jxself: i haven't tried the vm, but gnu/system/vm.scm has zile near the packages field. <civodul>usrnix: modules start with 'define-module', and there's a mapping from the module name to the file name <dasdadasdf>alip2890: nix-store, for instance. they come with Nix *usrnix shuffles back to the docs to understand modules <alip2890>dasdadasdf, thanks, will take a look at that <jxself>I'll try that. Every one I've tried to install returns either "Protocol not supported" or "1 dependencies couldn't be built" so I gave up. <dasdadasdf>but again, you usually shouldn't think about the store. <alip2890>yes, but for example httpd won't work out of the box. you have to change some files <civodul>jxself: does "telnet www.gnu.org http" work? <civodul>if not, run "deco start networking" as root <alip2890>I did. :) I used (string-append "--sysconfdir=" (assoc-ref %outputs "out") "/etc/httpd"). Is it wrong? <dasdadasdf>not sure that i understand, where did you use this? <jxself>Now to figure out how to build this new libogg... <alip2890>I mean, configuration stuff just goes in the store as everything else? <civodul>so you have to "guix build bootstrap-tarballs --target=mips64el-linux-gnuabi64" <jxself>I guess I shouldn't be trying to do this work inside the VM. <civodul>jxself: FWIW, you can safely install Guix atop your current distro <civodul>in the worst case, you can just rm -rf /nix/store, basically <jxself>That might be better because I keep running out of space in the VM. <Steap>jxself: are you running out of space or of inodes ? :p <jxself>I get the usual "No space left on device" message. <dasdadasdf>alip2890: yes, it seems wrong, but i don't see enough context to be sure. could you paste your recipe along with any errors to the guix-devel list? <Steap>usrnix: can't you try and use the substituter ? <usrnix>I don't know I'm new to guix and I can't work on it right now <civodul>BTW Steap: i routinely fill the 64 GiB partition of my store and i've never run out of inodes <civodul>and hydra.nixos.org has like 4 TB in its store <viric>I've run out of inodes in ext* formatted with default parameters. <Steap>civodul: do you often run guix gc ? <Steap>Is there a way to tell "guix package" something like "do not fallback to compiling stuff" ? :p <civodul>when playing with the QEMU image, that's quite often <civodul>re guix package, you can try --dry-run, and wait for Hydra to catch up if there's too much to build <civodul>Steap: so, what is it that you end up rebuilding? <Steap>civodul: don't know exactly, I stopped trying to build anything with my main machine when the temperature reached 94°C :) I switched to an old i686 box, the substituter seems to work <mark_weaver>I'm sitting here with davexunit, working on enhancing the Guile REPL to support a read hook, that would among other things allow the reading to be done in another thread (so that the REPL can essentially be run as a coroutine in the main thread of a event-driven program) <civodul>Guix hacking is pretty calm, but ok ;-) <youlysses>Yah! Besides dropping a friend off, in two hours, I'm free for the rest of the night! :^) <youlysses>civodul: Sorry, I've been a lot more busy this weekend than I expected -- I do want to at least get gl.scm up (git patch-format doesn't seem to export anything (do I need a flag of any-sort)) and probably still slim.scm, though I'm still having the same issue on 0.4 on my native box -- though maybe I just need to try via the vm. :^) <civodul>i don't know what problem you have with 0.4, but we can sort it out when you have time <youlysses>That being said, I need, to get kbd working -- which seems to be problematic for some reason. :^/ It's not even getting to the inputs stage -- it's stalling at the patch-phase, saying "find-files: ./docs/doc/utf/??????: No such file or directory". :^U <Steap>youlysses: in order to export your latest commit, you need to use git format-patch -1 <civodul>FYI our Git package now has two outputs in addition to the default one: "gui" (for gitk & co.), and "svn" (for git-svn) <jxself>civodul: Of course it's on the front page ;) <youlysses>Okay -- sorry my mom visited and said goodbye (visited for "parents weekend"), patch generated and finally I'm about to officially submit it to the mailing list. :^) <habstinat>New to guix, but I managed to compile and install it on my gNewSense system. In my foolishness though, when installing emacs I did "sudo guix package -i emacs", thus installing it only for the root user. I have two questions: 1) is it possible to install packages in the "normal" paths like /usr/bin/ instead of in a sandboxed way? and 2) can I just "move over" my /root/.guix-profile to my <habstinat>$USER_HOME/.guix-profile to get the package working as my regular user without reinstallation? *Steap is finally done with gobject-introspection :) <mark_weaver>habstinat: no, you can't just move it over. just re-run "guix package -i emacs" as your normal user. *handheldCar tried guix but couldn't shut it down <Steap>handheldCar: what do you mean by "shut it down" ? <Steap>oh, don't know really, haven't had the opportunity to test it yet