IRC channel logs

<sneek>Yey! dsmith is back

<ArneBab_>lechner: I still remember when someone registered a trademark for Shareaza and used that to steal the shareaza website and replace its content with malware. Even if your trademark would not hold in court, the domain registrar will likely give in. And if you do not defend a trademark, you lose it (so guile.in could cause guile to lose its trademark protection due to common use in the class computer programs).

<ArneBab_>Guile is safe against full website takeover due to being part of the gnu website, but other places where the name is used are at risk.

<old>also remember the Linux trademark accident

<lechner>sneek: later tell ArneBab: Did the trademark registration follow a $4.1 million settlement? Who paid whom? https://torrentfreak.com/the-shareaza-conspiracy-in-a-nutshell-080313/

<sneek>Okay.

<old>greedy people will always do something wrong

<old>My main concern with all of this are search engines. When I search for Guile, I get Guile from Street Figther

<old>I need to be more precise in my search: Guile programming

<old>now, if somebody makes a product "Guile" which aim our industrity, then I think it can impact search result

<old>anyway this is all theorical

<lechner>old: You should talk to an attorney. In my view, Guile is a product with a thirty-year old history. Registrations are great, if you can afford to maintain them.

<old>well my sister is a lawyer, specialized in cinema and stuff like this. I could probably ask her a little about this

<old>I am _not_ going to pay 900$/h for legal advice for FreeSoftware

<lechner>The Linux trademark was not really an accident. It was a scam. The registrant was accused of mail fraud and transferred the registration to Linus.

<lechner>old: You could also check out the Nolo books on trademarks. https://archive.org/details/trademarklegalca00elia

<old>with my 2 years old, I don't know when I would have the time to read a book

<old>took me the year to finish my current one

<old>but thanks

<lechner>I think our kids are about the same age. My daughter turns three next month. I also have no free time, but I love it.

<old>Mine is 2.5

<old>I also love it

<old>tho it's really burning me haha

<old>Hmm codeberg is having some DDOS?

<old>> This endpoint is seeing a high influx of requests for this repository, to preserve the availability of Codeberg your request will not be processed.

<lechner>old: I did the same for my twelve-year old and never regretted it. Too many memories, and too many funny moments. Tears, too.

<JohnCowan>I live with my daughter and her 4 youngest kids (3 4 6 7)

<lechner>What a blessing! I am sure they love you.

<ieure>I built an ADU on my property for my dad to live in, it's nice having him close to his grandkids.

<old>ieure: I agree. I've bought my house with my mother. We split the floor our-side/her-side. My son can just go see her whenever he feels like it

<old>I think it is very nice to have 3 generations in the same house

<ieure>My dad would drive me crazy if he lived with me, ADU in the backyard is ideal. We have family dinner every Saturday.

<lechner>ieure: Hi, something happened with you and Guix?

<old>ieure: well this is why I made a split-wall :-)

<graywolf>Hello :) Is it possible to use #:autoload with symbol renaming?

<old>graywolf: nope

<graywolf>thanks, good to know :)

<old>I would like users feedback on: https://codeberg.org/guile/guile/pulls/281

<old>Not review per-say, just in POV of feature

<old>it adds --quiet an GUILE_QUIET, allowing to inhibit messages from Guile systems

<old>Example: $ guile --quiet=repl --quiet=load, will inhibit the REPL welcome message and any auto-compiling stuff messages

<ArneBab>JohnCowan: my parents live a 20 minutes ride (by car) away. I don’t think living a walk away would work out: my wife and me are quite different and when grandparents are in the house, it’s harder to stick to the path we found together.

<sneek>ArneBab, you have 1 message!

<sneek>ArneBab, lechner says: Did the trademark registration follow a $4.1 million settlement? Who paid whom? https://torrentfreak.com/the-shareaza-conspiracy-in-a-nutshell-080313/

<graywolf>old: The feature looks useful, though imo --quite=repl,load would be nicer

<old>graywolf: right. I could certainly just add a for-each + string-split like for GUILE_QUIET

<graywolf>Though I am not sure I would actually ever turn this on personally, auto-compilation is dangerous and I want to be aware it is happening; but in the past I wished something like this existed many times, so...

<old>graywolf: done

<old>indeed, I've learnt to live with auto-compilation warning

<old>but I know that is has been a frustation of many

<ArneBab>lechner: yes, and today the situation is so dire that reducing the extend to which streaming services and labels rip off artists actually got into the coalition document of the current (very much not left leaning) German government: https://tube.funfacts.de/w/pYQLcGfMHycDcLgM7V6EXa – it’s not like we didn’t warn them that exactly that would happen …

<ArneBab>old: that reminds me that I have to finish GUILE_QUIET …

<ArneBab>old: still need to introduce (ice-9 logging) to avoid adding a new `info' binding in (guile).

<lechner>old: Can we now turn off the autos compilation warning by default?

<old>I would not do that by default no

<old>auto-compilation warnings is very useful to detect stalled sources

<old>or misconfiguration of environment

<lechner>What's a stalled source, please?

<lechner>Also, can I put the --quiet in my .guile config file?

<old>lechner: I did not expose yet the module, but you could do: (use-modules (ice-9 quiet)) (quiet! 'repl)

<lechner>Why repl?

<old>because I made the feature to be per-system

<old>(quiet! 'load) will quiet-down everything related to load

<lechner>I doesn't bother me in the REPL

<old>for stalled source, whenever you get a note that say that compiled file is older than source

<old>for auto-compilation and other loading warnings, (quiet! 'load)

<lechner>why is that a noteworthy condition?

<old>what do you mean

<lechner>is the warning about the compiled file being newer or oldervthan the source file?

<old>it means that you got back in time somehow, which can happen I guess

<lechner>but isn't it normal to have compiled files that are older than source?

<old>it will still load it I think

<old>warning you that you are loading something that differ from the current source

<old>kind of like GDB that warn you when the image is different from the source file

<old>not older, fresher -> newer

<old>that is, the timestamp of the compiled file is newer than the source file

<old>wait

<old>that's usually the case eh, I got the logic wrong lol

<old>right it's when the source file is newer than the compiled file

<old>which means the compiled file is stalled, not the source

<old>sorry for the confusion

<lechner>wait, so which is newer? it's not just you. I am also confused

<janneke>#f is a dotted-list?

<janneke>19:44:09 janneke@glimdal:~/src/guix/master [env]

<janneke>$ guile

<janneke>GNU Guile 3.0.11-1.b0f6549

<janneke>scheme@(guile-user)> (version)

<janneke>$1 = "3.0.11-1.b0f6549"

<janneke>scheme@(guile-user)> (use-modules (srfi srfi-1))

<janneke>scheme@(guile-user)> (dotted-list? #f)

<janneke>$2 = #t

<rlb>I've vaguely wondered how/if something like that would relate to logging if we ever had it, i.e. log-levels and log-categories, which might be more general, but dunno.

<lechner>something about the logic never made sense to me, but I cannot pinpoint it right now.

<rlb>i.e. load messages might go to guile.load at level info or ...

<rlb>by default

<rlb>("logging" more broadly can also raise all kinds of other question/complexities, so perhaps ignore it unless we already have something in mind this could fit in to)

<old>rlb: right the good thing would be to have logging

<old>lechner: when the file is newer on the file-system compared to the auto-compiled file in the cache

<old>a note is emitted

<JohnCowan>janneke: Everything that is not a pair or null is a dotted list of length 0

<TheTaoOfSu>Am I correct in understanding that Guile can't compile all the way to standalone executable, only to bytecode? How do people distribute programs written in Guile, distribute the code and require they install and run it through Guile?

<old>TheTaoOfSu: indeed guile does not support standalone executable at the moment

<old>But I do have a hack in mind I could try

<old>and by standalone, we need to define wether or not this is a static binary

<TheTaoOfSu>By standalone, I mean distributable through conventional Linux means. Depending on shared libraries is fine, but requiring an interpreter isn't standalone

<old>how does Python handle that?

<old>there's a freeze thingy IIRC

<TheTaoOfSu>I'm not sure, never did much Python. I know there used to be a compiler to EXE for Windows, but it's been at least a decade since I looked at that

<TheTaoOfSu>Some Python stuff just stays interpreted, I think, so I guess it's not the end of the world to put Guile in the dependencies

<old>well even as a standalone binary, you still need libguile around

<old>well not true, you have link against the static version of it

<old>you can*

<ArneBab>old: I managed to create appimages from Guile: https://www.draketo.de/software/enter-three-witches#publish-appimage

<ArneBab>old: to try: https://www.draketo.de/software/enter-three-witches.appimage – it’s “a bit” large, though …

<ArneBab>old: the code for that is pretty brittle, though: https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/enter/browse/Makefile.am#L77

<ArneBab>old: I also got it working via Docker, but that brings a few additional restrictions (and I don’t understand why).

<rlb>There's also been some experimentation here https://github.com/mwette/guile-freezer

<lechner>TheTaoOfSu: mwette can compile to ELF. guile-freezer on Gitblub

<ArneBab>old: “a bit” large means that I’m churning out a 200MiB binary – which may be fine for a game as soon as it becomes bigger and needs more assets.

<TheTaoOfSu>ArneBab: the appimage thing is pretty cool. I imagine it just bundles Guile in as the executable with your code alongside it, but I'm not an expert by any means

<TheTaoOfSu>rlb, lechner: that looks interesting, but it also hasn't been touched in 5 months and is marked alpha. Probably not the best foundation for a project, unfortunately

<lechner>TheTaoOfSu: I've used it

<TheTaoOfSu>And it worked well?

<lechner>mwette even offered me to maintain it, but we had creative differences and decided to remain friends instead

<lechner>depends on what you want to do. I liked it

<lechner>it needs some polish for ease of use but mwette was busy with something else

<dthompson>TheTaoOfSu: correct, there is no standalone executable you can create.

<dthompson>"conventional Linux means" of software distribution is source form that is then packaged by distros. for this, guile's existing bytecode compilation works well.

<dthompson>for throwaway distribution outside of package managers, the current best option is the aforementioned bundling of runtime + bytecode + shared libs

<dthompson>this form of distribution is really only useful for two things: proprietary software and throwaway programs like video games

<ArneBab>TheTaoOfSu: yes, the appimage bundles guile and all required libraries down to system libraries. It’s basically a docker image but without needing docker.

<ArneBab>The reason I’m looking into that is that I want people to be able to use the programs on distros that don’t provide them (⇒ currently all …) without having to go through an installation process, because that’s a big blocker for many.

<hwpplayer1>Is there a famous developer who writes Guile ?

<sneek>Welcome back hwpplayer1, you have 2 messages!

<sneek>hwpplayer1, lechner says: Are you looking to rewrite Scsh, or perhaps Gnash?

<hwpplayer1>Like RMS ?

<hwpplayer1>lechner: hello

<hwpplayer1>sneek: lechner I am not sure what you sa

<hwpplayer1>say

<hwpplayer1>sneek: lechner I am not sure what you say

<lechner>hwpplayer1: Are you looking for a Bash shell written in Guile?

<hwpplayer1>Ah yes

<hwpplayer1>exactly

<hwpplayer1>a shell implemented with Gule

<lechner>The folks in this channel wanted to help you avoid a duplicate effort, but you had already left

<hwpplayer1>Guile

<hwpplayer1>left ?

<hwpplayer1>I was sleeping

<hwpplayer1>what is the project lead by this community lechner ?

<lechner>Someone mentioned Scsh but you may actually be looking for Gnash

<lechner>maybe it was dsmith?

<hwpplayer1>No I said maybe something wrong

<hwpplayer1>I couldn't understand it maybe

<hwpplayer1>What is Scsh ?

<hwpplayer1>Scheme Shell okay

<hwpplayer1>Olin Shivers

<hwpplayer1>If some project exists and it is Free Software then I can contribute

<hwpplayer1> https://scsh.net/

<hwpplayer1>right ?

<lechner>Uhat's a dated project but was also a historical high point for the community. People yearn for it and would like it to run in Guile instead of Scheme48

<lechner>You can see the rich documentation on the website

<hwpplayer1>okay

<lechner>it's inspiring, but its not like Bash

<hwpplayer1>I can understand

<lechner>for that you need gnash

<hwpplayer1>I am not sure I meant gnash

<hwpplayer1>But anyway

<old>one thing that can be done and mwette did something like that is to concanetate the .go files of a binary into a copy of the guile executable

<old>I think I can do the same but without having to rely on binutils objcopy

<hwpplayer1>brb

<old>also many distros are hostile toward Guile, leaving you to only rely on the core Guile

<old>e.g. Fedora