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<sneek>Welcome back dsmith :D

<dsmith>sneek, botsnack

<hwpplayer1>Is there a policy of release management for Guile ?

<hwpplayer1>I learned by the way

<rlb>hwpplayer1: depending on what you mean, generally semantic versioning, though guile's Z releases are actually Y or Z releases, and see also doc/release.org in the source tree, perhaps.

<hwpplayer1>Does it have a website documentation ?

<hwpplayer1>where to look the source ?

<rlb> https://codeberg.org/guile/guile/src/commit/c495fe9381ad6fcbc7c9f598d38dc0d5090942c3/doc/release.org

<hwpplayer1>Thanks

<hwpplayer1> https://www.wikihow.com/Become-a-Programmer From a perspective of computer scientist and programmer and who likes to invent or develop programming languages where to start to learn lisp/guile ?

<dsmith>sneek, htdp?

<sneek>From what I understand, htdp is How to Design Programs, http://www.htdp.org/

<dsmith>sneek, sicp?

<sneek>Last time I checked sicp is Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/

<rlb>hwpplayer1: oh, btw, emacs 30.2 is in unstable/testing now :)

<dsmith>hwpplayer1, ^^ Two common texts for learning

<hwpplayer1>I see

<rlb>perhaps also https://docs.scheme.org/

<hwpplayer1>Last question for now : As I heard The BSD OS family is "designed" but "Linux" is "evolution"

<hwpplayer1>what action should I take before designing a "software suite"

<hwpplayer1>monolithic or less monolithic

<hwpplayer1>How to understand when to select something

<hwpplayer1>Maybe a degree between designed system and evolution and also monolithic and less monolithic

<hwpplayer1>rlb Emacs is the number one tool for me :)

<hwpplayer1>I graduated economics, I studied/study social sciences especially art of war and strategy classics. Maybe that counts for designing programs and also programming language

<hwpplayer1>using resources etc

<hwpplayer1>the game theory

<hwpplayer1>Thanks

<ArneBab>hwpplayer1: if you want to design a software system, you must first understand enough about its inner workings so you can judge the effects of different design decisions.

<hwpplayer1>do you please elaborate ?

<ArneBab>hwpplayer1: so I would first start small. Build something practical that touches the core of what you want to do.

<hwpplayer1>hardware and electronics ? does it count ?

<hwpplayer1>I read/write Emacs Lisp code

<hwpplayer1>not only Elisp

<hwpplayer1>Write small tools that makes my job

<hwpplayer1>do you mean that

<ArneBab>If you want to use Guile, build something with Guile.

<hwpplayer1>Sure I got it

<hwpplayer1>Then large codebase

<ArneBab>I don’t know what you want to create, so I don’t know what starting point would be best.

<hwpplayer1>right ?

<hwpplayer1>I also want to learn the language itself comprehensively and teach to people

<hwpplayer1>So I need to explore more

<hwpplayer1>I like to tell programming to my friends

<hwpplayer1>share knowledge

<ArneBab>For the second step, mind the second system effect: https://wiki.c2.com/?SecondSystemEffect

<hwpplayer1>I'm gonna read soon

<hwpplayer1>What is your branch in Guile ?

<hwpplayer1>console/terminall apps or extensions ?

<ArneBab>To teach other people get up to speed quickly, this could be useful: https://www.draketo.de/software/programming-scheme

<ArneBab>But not so much for an in-depth understanding; for that, sicp and the little schemer are better.

<hwpplayer1>okay

<hwpplayer1>Anything else ?

<ArneBab>I build smaller systems, because I only work on Guile as hobby: small online games, specific language extensions, experiments, interface to other systems.

<hwpplayer1>I know Assembly and C and higher level languages ( the idea and concept )

<hwpplayer1>I see

<hwpplayer1>nice ArneBab

<hwpplayer1>Thanks for your help

<ArneBab>There’s also https://misc.lassi.io/2022/map-of-r7rs-small.html and https://files.spritely.institute/papers/scheme-primer.html -- and for reading on the "read the docs" page: https://www.draketo.de/software/programming-scheme#docs

<hwpplayer1>I see

<ArneBab>(the read the docs page lists links to read on)

<hwpplayer1>That is great to hear that there are good resources/docs

<hwpplayer1>I wrote/ai helped me to write a guile based website and terminal app

<hwpplayer1>just hello world but it was good to see that

<ArneBab>please try to actually write programs yourself: in Guile you can optimize your environment more than in any other language I know, and if you let AI template the code together, you’ll miss that advantage because you won’t actually learn how the language works.

<hwpplayer1>yes agree

<hwpplayer1>I just wanted to try

<hwpplayer1>I was sleepy :)

<ArneBab>anyway: good luck with your plans.

<hwpplayer1>Thanks

<hwpplayer1>likewise

<hwpplayer1>have a great day/night

<tohoyn>daviid: true, FiTohoynDBusServer1 is not a valid interface name. I changed it to fi.tohoyn.DBusServer1.

<sneek>tohoyn, you have 4 messages!

<sneek>tohoyn, daviid says: I found why it is not working. could you edit the (g-golf support struct) module and comment the line 107, using #;, so it becomes this - #;(string-prefix? "GDBus" g-name) - save, compile/install g-golf

<sneek>tohoyn, daviid says: then use this version of your test - https://paste.debian.net/1409664/ - given I saved it as d-bus-server-test.scm, chmod a+x d-bus-server-test.scm, you can run passing (if you wish) -d, as in ./d-bus-server-test.scm -d this will print g-golf core precious info as you are debugging ...

<sneek>tohoyn, daviid says: please note that I had to change your GDBusInterfaceInfo name, "FiTohoynDBusServer1" is not a valid name, not knowing what I am doing here, I picked the one in the doc, but for info, your name must pass the test, i.e (g-dbus-is-interface-name "org.freedesktop.DBus.Properties") => #t, but (g-dbus-is-interface-name "FiTohoynDBusServer1") => #f and that raises a Gio CRITICAL ...

<sneek>tohoyn, daviid says: I am sure why I tag GValue and Graphene struct as semi-opaque, but I can't remember why I also tagged DBus - even when I comment as suggested above, both the g-golf test-suite and all gi-marshalling tests still pass ... so I may patch 'for real' and release ...

<tohoyn>daviid: I tried to define methods in the interface info, see https://paste.debian.net/1409742/. The resulting error message can be found here: https://paste.debian.net/1409743/. The error message is caused by line 42 in the code. It seems that G-Golf does not handle array pointers as struct components correctly.

<tohoyn>daviid: G-Golf seems to have problems with array arguments containing structs, see https://paste.debian.net/1409776/.

<tohoyn>daviid: here is the error message I get: https://paste.debian.net/1409777/

<sam113101>how can I get help about a function

<identity>sam113101: «,describe function» at the repl

<identity>or look for it in the manual

<sam113101>scheme@(guile-user) [1]> ,describe stream-fold

<sam113101>#f

<CoderPrans>C-h f, is a default keybind that invokes "describle function" @sam113101

<identity>sam113101: it is described in the manual in (info "(guile) SRFI-41 Stream Library")

<sam113101>info: No menu item '(guile) SRFI-41 Stream Library' in node '(dir)Top'

<identity>sam113101: have you installed the guile manual?

<daviid>tohoyn: wrt the first problem, as a user you should be able to pass a list of lists ... on the C side, it expect an array of pointers to GDBusMethodInfo, which are structs containing structs, themselve containing structs ... none of the gi-marshalling tests ever tested those cases. I'll look into this, but it will take a while before I can come-up with a solution ...

<daviid>tohoyn: wrt the second, I'll look into it ... i'll let you know when i have a fix ...

<daviid>tohoyn: I am curious, why are you willing to use d-bus? what is your objective? Is there a 'similar' d-bus usage but written in C and working, so I could look at ...?

<daviid>d-bus is a nightmare, because it has its own GDBusArgInfo, GDBusAnnotationInfo ... complete total nightmare ...

<tohoyn>daviid: I just thought D-Bus support would be a good thing to have in Theme-D. Actually it is a bit difficult to figure out a good piloting project for it.

<daviid>but what is your objective? a concrete example ...

<tohoyn>daviid: Actually I don't know.

<tohoyn>daviid: But I think that interprocess communication should have important applications.

<tohoyn>daviid: BTW, I made some DBus code using make-c-struct. Do you want to see it?

<daviid>tohoyn: I'd need a very concrete example to be able to learn from ...

<daviid>a working code, that does something 'useful' would be nice yes

<daviid>and explain what the is code 'doing', in clear english, that would help

<tohoyn>daviid: I have some problems with pastezone right now

<daviid>mwette: I am wondering if it would not be more efficient, for g-golf users, to bind DBus using the ffi-helper and use that interface instead of GI?

<kestrelwx>There's an `ac-d-bus` library for Scheme.

<daviid>tohoyn: https://bpa.st/+scheme

<mwette>daviid, tohoyn: I created a demo for running dbus from guile, using ffi binding created from the ffi helper. Relevant files in nyacc are examples/system/dbu.scm, examples/ffi/dbus.ffi, examples/nyacc/lang/ffi-help/dbus-*.scm ; https://github.com/mwette/nyacc/tree/main/examples

<mwette>right, the ac-d-bus one too, I think that's used in guix

<tohoyn>daviid: https://bpa.st/RQHA

<tohoyn>mwette: AFAIK ac-d-bus does not implement synchronous method calls

<daviid> https://gitlab.com/weinholt/ac-d-bus/

<daviid>kestrelwx: tx

<tohoyn>daviid: The server defines a callback for DBus method MyMethod1

<tohoyn>daviid: receiving the method call is handled correctly, but sending a response does not work

<mwette>I have not run the dbus demo in a bit.

<daviid>tohoyn: but what 'is it doing'?

<daviid>supposed to do? I don't get it, you send what to what process, what does that process does with the msg?

<daviid>mwette: tx, I'll look at it when I can ...

<tohoyn>daviid: first the argument is extracted from the method call

<kestrelwx>I'm trying to make a screen recording tool, and I'm using G-Golf for D-Bus, ffi-helper for ffmpeg and I think I'll have to write bindings for Pipewire using the ffi. But I stalled for a while unfortunately.

<tohoyn>daviid: then the response should be constructed and sent

<kestrelwx>I guess a Guile interface over some thin bindings would be fine, but GDbus seems nice already.

<tohoyn>daviid: but the construction of the response argument does not work

<daviid>tohoyn: i just do not understand, what is the objective? do you send a msg to the desktop, to the kernel ...?

<daviid>what are you willing to do? in clear english ...

<mwette>I think this does replies: https://github.com/mwette/nyacc/blob/main/examples/nyacc/lang/ffi-help/dbus-03.scm

<tohoyn>daviid: the purpose of this server is just to test method calls (and later signals)

<daviid>tohoyn: so no real concrete need ... ok

<daviid>mwette: tx, I'll try to read this code later ...

<daviid>kestrelwx: what is your objective to use g-golf to use d-bus?

<tohoyn>kestrelwx: do you happen to know any important practical use of d-bus?

<kestrelwx>tohoyn: I mostly need to communicate with the XDG desktop portal.

<kestrelwx>daviid: Oh, just to get GDBus.

<mwette>I believe dbus is used for desktop app's to talk to hardware, e.g., power statistics. See /usr/share/dbus-1/interfaces.

<tohoyn>daviid: if you run the server you have to export procedure %write-c-struct in module (system foreign) in the Guile source code.

<rlb>fwiw, I also know that the "secret service" (yes that's what they call it) uses d-bus to communicate secrets between keyrings/apps and I think gnome/kde may use it.

<rlb>No idea how widely -- I was just poking around there a while ago...

<ieure>rlb, You're telling me that if Queen Elizabeth II used a Linux desktop, her passwords were communicated On Her Majesty's Secret Service?

<rlb>Oh, sorry, "secret storage", though I thought I'd heard it referred to via the other name :) https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/secret-storage-spec/

<kestrelwx>rlb: https://specifications.freedesktop.org/secret-service/latest/

<kestrelwx>I guess it's the same link...

<kestrelwx>Who would've known there are little details running around in our computers.

<rlb>Oh, ok.

<sam113101>what is ice-9?

<dsmith>sneek, ice-9?

<sneek>Its been said that ice-9 is "a nod to the fictional substance in Kurt Vonnegut's novel, Cat's Cradle, capable of acting as a seed crystal to crystallize the mass of software" <http://wingolog.org/archives/2009/01/07/a-brief-history-of-guile>

<dsmith>It was a cute name at the time when Guile was supposed to take over every scripting and config application.

<rlb>I also tried to improve things a bit in main, i.e. added an index entry for ice-9, and mention in the README, and a footnote in the info tour.

<rlb>"a mention"

<rlb>020d80c401a0a69f134ab56ca111339ac24f3ca0 fwiw

IRC channel logs

2025-11-21.log